Lifeguard On Beaches Reopening; Nursing Home Staff Live In On-Site RVs
From NPR and WBZ. I'm Robin Young. I'm Tanya Moseley. It's here now and there's mixed news today and the progress to fight the corona virus the biotech company Maduna promising early results in a small human vaccine trial which show eight healthy. Volunteers developed antibodies. They were able to neutralize the virus. Battalion we're also learning that A. Us Navy sailors that had cove in nineteen and then recovered and tested negative. Now are sick against. We're not sure what this all says about antibodies. And we'll keep an eye on those stories. But meanwhile in Washington House Democrats are launching an investigation into the firing of another inspector general. This time at the State Department president trump dismissing Steve Clinic late last Friday after Secretary of state. Mike Pompeo asked him to. There have been reports for a while of grumbling in the department about Pompeo using taxpayer funds for personal services the State Department watchdog was reportedly looking into those complaints. Npr diplomatic correspondent. Michelle Kellerman is here and Michelle so counting up in the past six weeks trump fired the intelligence community. I G the Acting Defense Department I g and the Acting Health and Human Services G A patterned. Perhaps your sense of what's going on. Well Democrats are clearly seen a pattern. And they're looking for ways to strengthen the protections for Inspector General's there've been a few Republicans expressing concern Senator Mitt Romney for instance over the weekend said the firing of multiple inspectors general is unprecedented and a threat to accountable democracy. Susan Collins tweeted over the weekend that the president had not provided the kind of justification for the removal of the State Department's I G as required by law that she helped author But for the most part Republicans have been pretty silent about this trend. Well and we've known for a while that there were grumblings as we said about. Mike Pompeo the secretary of state potentially using taxpayer money for personal purposes now reports. That link was looking into this. What can you tell us about what he was looking at? Well we're hearing from Democrats on the hill that about a couple of things that he was investigating There's a report today from the Washington Post source did. Confirm it for me that the inspector general had mostly completed an investigation into the secretaries controversial decision to get around opposition. Congress and green light billions of dollars in arms sales to the Saudis. He had this emergency declaration that raised a lot of eyebrows last year and the idea was looking into that democratic sources. Also say that the I was looking into the misuse of a political appointee basically that POMPEO had US government. Employees do personal errands for him and for his wife. Things like picking up the dog at the groomers or things like that when I asked the Inspector General's office over the weekend I was told that they can't confirm or deny any particular investigation and the State Department has refused to comment on any of that. What about other members of the State Department? What are your sources telling you about their thoughts about this? Well I think there was a pretty well respected guy. And they're kind of some people that they were kind of numb. At this point there is definitely concern last year Cnn did this whole report about some security agents. Feeling like they'd become uber eats with guns There were a lot of concerns last year that I heard when the MRS POMPEII was on trips with the secretary so these these have been things that have been growing as well as you said. The Democrats have certainly been vocal about this. Here's the speaker Nancy Pelosi on face the nation yesterday. The president has the right to fire a federal employee. But the fact is if it looks like it's in retaliation for something that the attorney the I g the inspector general is doing that could be unlawful well and so what is your sense of repercussions either for Pompeo or you know. President trump has as Pelosi just said he has the right to fire federal employees. Well the Democrats on the hill have opened an investigation. They're asking for The State Department to hold any documents that they have that are related to this day. Need to find out if it was in retaliation for any of these issues that that Steve had been investigating. I'd also say that you know it's not that he was. He was very controversial. I mean he played a minor role in the whole impeachment. Saga but there were a couple of I G reports that that he had done recently that sort of angered top management. They were things about personnel matters. Dealing with the trump administration officials retaliating against those who they call Obama holdovers at the department. One report led to the resignation of Assistant Secretary of State for international organizations and another was critical of one of pompey's top aides Iran guy. Brian Hook so you know if if it was in retaliation for any of these things then that could be a problem for Pompeo. We'll see how this unfolds. Npr diplomatic correspond. Michele Kelemen. Thanks as always sure. Thank you well in Kentucky. The mother of a young black woman killed by police is now calling for no knock warrants to be banned and body cameras required for All Police Officers in Louisville Kentucky shot and killed Brianna Taylor in her apartment and March during our search warrant and the governor of Kentucky is now asking for both federal and local prosecutors to investigate joining us now for the latest is Ana law he. She is a reporter for W. F. P. L. in Louisville and Amina Take us back to the shooting. Police entered Brianna Taylor's apartment just after midnight on March thirteenth. Then what happened? They entered by force. And there's some disagreement over whether they introduced or rather identified themselves before doing so Neighbors and a Brownie. Tillers boyfriend Kenneth Walker say that they didn't they didn't hear them coming in but the police say they did announce themselves before breaking down the door once they did that that startled Walker and Taylor awake and Walker responded by firing his gun. He shot an officer in the leg And all three officers responded by firing back and it's believed that they shot over twenty bullets at least eight of them. Hit Brianna Taylor. Killing her just that same night. Why did police have a no knock warrant enter her apartment? The warrant was related to a drug investigation as you mentioned They claim that they believe. The main suspect jamarcus glover was receiving packages at Brianna 's apartment. And we know that Brianna Taylor and Jamarcus glover relationship in the past and remained in contact. The police claimed that they had seen him picking up a package there earlier. This year and that they use the Louisville postal inspector to confirm that he was in fact receiving packages there so they believed that her apartment was being used as some sort of drug operation. That's why requested the no knock warrant and operated the way that they did in the middle of the night However late last week the Louisville Postal Inspector told local. Tv that the police didn't use his office to verify dot claims so that throws some of the rationale for the warrant into question and we want to note that no drugs were recovered in Briana. 's home is that correct. That's correct. Yeah you mentioned her boyfriend Kenneth Walker who is a licensed gun owner that he shot one of the officers in the leg that night and his lawyer says he was acting in self defense after police used That battering Ram to enter the apartment. What's the latest with Walker? You're absolutely right and I should mention that. That officer who was shot was taken to surgery an since recovered but walkers been charged with first degree assault and attempting to murder a police officer. He was released a house arrest in late. March and that really angered police and their union described him as someone who attempted to kill a police officer and doesn't deserve to be on house arrest but that case is still pending against him There are some complication around. How that will all play out here locally Supporters of Walker. And Taylor I think at this point seemed to be saying that they just want the case thrown out of like his lawyer. They're saying he acted in self defense. He was startled awake in the middle of the night. Not Knowing who is entering his home and tried to defend himself. And Taylor. I'M GONNA this took place in March. Why is it getting so much attention right now? Yeah it was actually covered pretty well by a local media here. This was something that didn't escape notice however despite that and despite the fact that local activists have been talking about it and remembering Brianna Taylor. It didn't really reach national attention until more recently a little a little more than a week ago. Seems like one of the catalytic moments was when Shaun King. The activists shared her story on social media on his podcast and that really caught a lot of people's attention. You started seeing her picture circulating on twitter on Instagram with details and an I should add a lot of misinformation as well about what happened to her. But the basic facts about police entering her home at night and shooting her That's true and that's been shared very widely in recent days. And what parts of this story in the initial information that we were hearing was misinformation the misinformation. The key point that I've seen incorrectly shared recently is that the police were at the wrong house and I think that how you interpret that may be determines whether it's correct or not technically. They wrote the right house. They had a warrant for that apartment. Brianna Taylor's name was on the warrant a main suspect but she was involved in what they were after basically because they believed that her apartment was being used to do. These drug transactions in some way when people say the wrong house they may mean that they should not have gone there but technically speaking they went to the place they said they were going to. That's Amina Alawi. She is reporter with W. F. P. L. and mobile. Thank you so much thank you. It's here now and we've been wondering house. Tyson belongs you're doing. You may have heard of what he's doing. It's pretty incredible. He went to Yale then. Harvard his PhD in between he served three tours in Iraq as a Marine. Which in itself is pretty interesting but then in two thousand sixteen he bought and moved next door to the family run nursing home in. Bristol Connecticut okay. Then on March twenty second early on in the pandemic. He moved his entire staff onto the grounds of the nursing home to live in. Rv's so they wouldn't bring the krona virus into the facility and so far they haven't there's not one case in a state where autumn ninety four out of two hundred and sixteen facilities have had covert cases accounting for nearly half the deaths in that state. Would this has come at a personal cost about a half? A million of Tyson's own money. Tyson boulanger joins us now from the Shady Oaks home in Beautiful Bristol Connecticut Tyson. You pledged two months. I think you're over two months at this point not a single case not a single case not so far when you came up with this. What did you see for me? It was all about. Kirkman was just a nightmare. My heart is broken. Even just thinking about what had happened out there. The the Life Care Center of Washington the Corona virus that got in there and the dozens of people who passed and the struggle they went through was an alert. It was an alert all across the country. Everyone knew it was coming our way. It was coming to senior homes and we all begin to mobilize and one of the things that we did in early. March was we shut down for visitors. And that was heartbreaking enough. Just to tell family members that they wouldn't be able to come back to speak with their wives their mothers their aunts and it was just really rough and then our next step was to have a checkpoint screen the staff medically as they arrived for work. I stood that checkpoint and it reminded me a bit of my time in the Marines and it was really frustrating and very difficult. I didn't know exactly what to be looking for. We kept hearing about asymptomatic issues and how cove it might be able to transmit any signs. They'll health and even if that was just five percent ten percent and now we know it's so much more so he was this moment of like we've got to stop we've got to rethink all this. We've got something better and so we jumped. We jumped as quick as we could to bubble. No kidding you brought. Rv's into the parking lot. Your family had been in this business for forty four years when you bought it. Both of your grandparents had been in the home. This this sounds like it became personal for you. It is and each day here even now. I walk the home and I look in the eyes of my residents and I and tears come to me and I I just. I can't imagine a month from now. Two months from now three months from now and cove still going to be here in the senior homes. It's still going to be a threat what it's going to be like if they get it and I got to do everything I've got to do everything I can to save them and to find a safe way forward for our residents and caregivers well but this is pretty extreme. You ask your staff to move into these. Rv's have families of their own. They agree. There's no doubt at this is hardship in a volunteer assignment. We had forty eight staff members and I asked seventeen to come in and of course the first thing is their mothers their daughters their sisters there. They have all these relationships at home and they're going to miss out on so much by being away for the two months that's the first and then the next is low the number of hours of work to cover an entire week so they're doing sixty to eighty hours a week of work. It's really hard. And then as we've learned that easy to move in with her co workers for two months and it's just not an easy project but we all feel so good about the decision we feel like we've really made a difference and in our hometown. Four out of five nursing homes have covered and one of them has over twenty eight deaths and we just know that we've made the right decision for our home for our residents and our caregivers and to make it worthwhile and and to to show appreciation. I paid them large bonuses to our CNA's tore nurses. I pay our CNA's and General Staff fifteen thousand a month. And I pay our license nurses Twenty thousand dollars a month when we first got started with. This guy really didn't know that we'd have any assistance. We didn't know that we'd be able to to you. Know I was just drawing from my own savings and it looked pretty bleak but I. I just kept believing that there might be something up ahead. I wouldn't be able to see. And the immediate thing is is to save lives. I had to save lives head to save our home and tried to reach time a better testing and try to reach a better time a better equipment show as the time went by the payroll protection program opened up to us. And that's been a big help. Imagine that three hundred thousand dollars in P P protections enables you to pay some of those people donald core coming in but who said they couldn't yes. All of our furloughed staff were paying full. According to their average hours before we bubbled up able to take care of our community and the idea behind. That is it sooner or later. We're going to have to open back up. And when we do we WANNA make sure everybody was well taken care of and then beyond the payroll protection program. My mom helped that she made a large donation. And we've had very kind souls Go to our website and make small donations. And we're I think we're going to be okay. I I'm still sure a couple of hundred thousand but for for the feeling of knowing that we saved lives. We saved a residence. We saved our caregivers some caregivers. I've learned about them. Having health troubles eight had no idea before if they get corona virus they'll be susceptible to a serious illness so I have no regrets the thing that I've been trying for it and I've been struggling for. I really want to share this idea and this is why. I'm so grateful for the opportunity to speak with you today. Just can't be just about my home. It's gotta be all caregivers about all senior homes. We really need to see this public. Good well you say. Also it's something. The government should contribute to. You've suggested that if Connecticut for instance pays twenty five thousand per week in matching payroll funds to all of its three hundred sixty five nursing homes and assisted living centers for just six weeks. It would cost taxpayers fifty five million. Now a lot of people are gonNA say what fifty five million. That's a lot of money you say. What well at the federal level they're talking about trillions and then if it's compared to what happens when corona virus comes into a home homes ended up paying quite a bit anyways as hazard pay and the human costs of such suffering and the amount of personal protective equipment that they go through. There's not that much of a difference in cost between what we've done here. And what some of the homes have had to do but of course. There's a human advantage to what we've done is we don't have any sick people here. The other huge costs are if residents go from the nursing home to the hospital. And then we're talking about ventilators and I see us and now suddenly it would cost concern lots of an ICU. Visit like what is that. If it was a drug that we could pay for that. We could save sixty percent on the fatality rate from Kovin. We would have done it. Why not do the human solution if we had done that? Oh Wow what a savings of human life we would have had and if they wanted to they could just boil it all the way down to just calling it a pilot project. Let's have ten homes but see what like enticing. We know that there's a nurse there that can possibly break away from this incredibly hard work to speak with us. Faith hold on one point high. It's face faith for thank you so much. I hearing how overwhelmed. You guys aren't how much work you're doing there. But I just what's been like to live on the side of the nursing home. It hasn't always been easy Were here twenty four seven And just being unable to go home and be with family. I think that's everyone's biggest obstacle kids or oh. Yeah they're grown. I do have an elderly mom that I do help. Take care of that home. So that's my biggest concern but my husband's there so he helps out what a sacrifice on your part and I thank you on behalf but in a funny way. Maybe you're protecting your mom to buy really isolating yourself that is correct because otherwise who knows what I'd be bringing home. Yeah Yeah How can? How would you describe? I mean? We've heard it's tough. How what's the what's the toughest the hardest obstacle? It's just everybody's personality. You're you're with them all the time. They're they're now our family so we're we see true colors. Welcome to the House. Many people are right. A lot of people are going through. The what's the what's the upside. We know that you're being paid a little bit extra but some people would say no amount of money in the world would make the move into work. So what is the upside for you? What's been the reward the whole movement of trying to show that it can be done Bubbling up and all working together as a close team and protecting our elderly. There's got to be so rewarding. Yeah it's a good feeling a good feeling. I'm GonNa let you go back to it because I don't want to keep away from thank you. You're very well Robin back. Yeah so Tyson. I'm thinking I'm trying to think of that day. When you gather the staff and say okay we can all go home and I'm going to actually start going out a bit. I'm just wondering how hard that's going to be for you all given people who are looking to you through those. Is You say you into looking to you to protect them? I might that might be hard. It is I take it very very seriously. I live here at home. This is what I do I again. I speak with strong conviction that we have a way forward and I just want this idea out there. If there's another home somewhere across the country and I've I'm aware of one outside Atlanta. I'm aware of one outside Columbus. Ohio and I applaud them for doing. This idea of people should be aware that this is an option at least a bridge a patch through the search and then get to the other side Tyson at the Shady Oaks Nursing Care Facility in Bristol. Connecticut Tyson will link listeners. Up With you at here now dot org but thank you so much for speaking with. It was my pleasure and thank you for this opportunity. Thank you just Just something we all spoke with nurse faith broker will link you to pictures of the. Rv's she and others living in here Uber announced. Today it's cutting another three thousand jobs and closing forty five offices. The company is slashed about a quarter of its workforce in less than a month but some big tech companies in Silicon Valley are hiring fact. These are pretty good days to be in the market for a mid level white collar job in web development and Tech Support Rachel Myrow of member station K. Q. E. D. reports surely Dang was laid off in April when the Palo Alto based financial startup. Earning gutted it's marketing department stable is like a relative term. Dang would prefer to work for a bigger company. She owns a house in Hayward in the San Francisco Bay area with her fiance. And he's still working but the mortgage could become a in about six months a lot of good companies that I might want to work for or vision myself with are holding off on higher right now so I know like across the board like tech companies have hiring freezes unless it's a very technical role where it's like engineering or developer. The numbers backup Dame's assessment on hiring. Experts say this economic downturn favors giants with the cash reserves to wait out a revenue drop for pivot to areas with more potential for profit so for instance facebook which has said it plans to hire ten thousand people. This year wants a bigger piece of the online video market which is exploding while most of us are stuck at home because of the pandemic now silicon valley employers often split their payroll between fulltime employees with benefits and contractors which is why it makes sense to check in with. Hayden Brown chief of up work in employment platform that matches white-collar GIG workers with businesses. And so we're seeing water back to be around web development video production technical support is a big one so there's a lot of activity where people are trying to deploy install maintain technical systems for their business but there are skeptics. Who worry that what we're witnessing and Silicon Valley is a temporary uptick before bedtime. Settle in yet. It certainly seems like an odd time to try purposely to hire new people. Why why not? Just wait Rachel. Massaro directs research at the Silicon Valley Institute for Regional Studies at the nonprofit joint venture. Silicon Valley it that a lot of these data points a lot of the indicators that were looking at we'll have a lag time and in a few months will get a better understanding of the influence of the crisis. Right now those silicon valley companies on the down swing like AIRBNB. Getting a quarter of its workforce. This month are taking a hit because what they do is directly hurt by the pandemic but as the economy is a whole collapses into recession the current winners intact may not be able to sail above the fray for long for here. Now I'm Rachel myrow. And meanwhile this some more tech news to note apple is putting some of its employees back to work. The company announced that it's planning to reopen twenty-five stores in the US. This week. Florida Oklahoma Hawaii and Colorado will allow apple customers into the stores while Apple Stores in California and Washington will allow for curbside pickup around the world. Nearly one hundred apple stores started opening up as of yesterday. Apple says it's taking steps to keep workers and customers save including limiting how many people can enter acquiring face coverings for employees and customers. An apple will also require temperature checks at the door and conduct regular deep cleans of all surfaces the normal. This is here now. Many people are itching to get outside and socialize especially as the weather starts to get warm even though the fight to contain the corona virus is still very much in full force in parts of Southern California for instance. The number of infections and deaths are relatively flat but as people gather. Health officials are saying new hotspots and spikes in the number of cases for more on California's efforts to contain the virus. We have Dr George Rutherford via skype. He's an epidemiologist at the University of California Central Cisco. Welcome Dr Thank you so much. Well Dr let's start with the numbers. New Deaths and California have stayed basically flat at about seventy a day from a glance at the chart. It looks like we're not saying a steep decline and infections. A California took a proactive approach and shutting down cities and implementing social distancing measures. Very early on. Why aren't we seeing better results? Well it's because transmissions ongoing and these deaths are Craig among people who are infected. Probably two to three weeks before and you know as long as there's ongoing transmission will continue to see deaths now it is flat. It's not going up and that's heartening but we would really like to see it coming down. Why is there ongoing transmission? There's ongoing transmission. I think first and foremost among people who live in large households and so large multigenerational families it passes from one person to another to another to another and it just keeps going also people get it when they go outside especially if they're not wearing masks and if they're going into places where people are too close together and finally we see a few cases among essential workers still and all of all of this in many ways is interconnected because when you talk about essential workers many of them may live in homes with lots of family members are intergenerational members as you mentioned. The beginning is one of the complications to stay at home order. Yes absolutely and and so these things do linked together but to the extent that we can disentangle them and limit transmission outside of the home. That's what's GONNA take to get us down to a handful of cases this summer and moving from the governor state to to the Governor Stage three reopenings I mentioned southern California. The state is not homogeneous And Southern California seems to be doing worse than Northern California. Why is that well to start with? It's bigger I think the other thing probably that's going on Is that at least compared to the bay area. The rest of the state in which includes southern California went to shelter in place orders about four days later and in southern California. It really didn't seem like it had sunk in until the following Monday so it was almost six days later which represents at least one if not two generations of transmission of the virus so the chain of transmission or longer. They're more cases by the time we went to a shelter in place order. I think the other thing is probably more introductions into southern California than there were in the northern California. You mean people coming into the state correct both from Asia but in Los Angeles in particular from Europe. We have several chains of transmission that were tied to people coming from areas in Europe where there had been transmission that was a real big problem in New York with hundreds of new introductions from overseas. I also want to ask you about something else. Their concerns that some of the rural counties are now moving further into reopening. And that they just don't have enough testing. So some of those counties reopening are doing five to ten tests per one thousand people. That's according to the La Times. Is that enough? No I don't think so. I think the governor's goal is to be able to have two hundred tests per ten thousand people per day. A lot of these countries are very small. You know they're going to be able to get away with with fewer tests but on a per capita basis. It should be at about the same level and so I think that's something that needs to be worked on going forward now. The Chan Zuckerberg bio hub at the University of California. San Francisco is testing specimens for any local health department from anywhere in California so there is capacity protesting. If they WANNA get the specimens down to San Francisco. I mentioned earlier that We are seeing some spikes and in southern California in particular. We're hearing about these events. Where single person can infect many others in Pasadena for instance officials traced cluster of cases to a woman coughing at a birthday party? What do you take away from that? I mean there's also mother's Day services in Northern California butte county that may have exposed one hundred and eighty people. Is it just impossible to have gatherings until we have a vaccine? I think that's a fair way of thinking about it. Yes it's impossible to have gatherings unless people have masks on and they're outside and there's social distance which seems like none of those conditions seem to have been met by either of the events you're citing You know it's just too dangerous you know you hope that they're no mortality reminder of these events but it's playing with fire and you know we understand that people want to be able to get back to the lives. They used to leave. It just can't happen quite yet. I think there's a really great example from Hong Kong which has had several thousand cases but only four deaths. What they're doing is everybody wears masks. And I think that the whole idea of wearing masks is what's going to get us out of this at least out out of it until we get to a vaccine. That's Dr George Rutherford. He's an epidemiologist at the University of California San Francisco. Thank you doctor. You Bet my pleasure. Thank you Dr. Rutherford says one place that could potentially be safe our beaches if people social distance and wear masks when they're not swimming gus. Avi Law is the president of the United States lifesaving association. He's a retired lifeguard for California state beaches in southern California and he's been thinking a lot about the additional safety measures for both lifeguards. And the public gusts. Thanks for joining us. You're welcome Tanya so you were an ocean lifeguard for thirty four years and this weekend we saw our first full days of great weather and open beaches over a month here in southern California. What's your reaction to the openings? While the act the reaction is one of excitement because it's always exciting to get people on the beach and get the beaches open and have great weather Just some confusion and some trepidation because the rules are changing almost daily so just the fact that there are no hard fast roles right now and we have to pay attention again to what the local officials are telling us in our telling the public. One of the things I've been struck by and the role of lifeguards Many of them this weekend. Were also serving a social distancing police in a in a way instructing people not to stand idle or get too close thinking about that in the context of what life guards are there for as well as to watch the water. What are some of your other biggest concerns for lifeguards? Is they get back to work. Well social distancing is a big one but the major part of life saving is also educating the public of how to remain safe whether it's not to swim in an in an area where it's dangerous or the rip currents but now we have to remind them that they should be exercising social distancing but at the same time we still have to maintain a strong focus on the water safety aspects of the job. Yeah one thing we noticed is that your group is advising lifeguards not to give mouth-to-mouth resuscitation What would they do? Actually instead of. Someone wasn't breathing well. They could use a bag. Valve mass has a big bag on it. That feels with air. You cover the mouth and the nose with it and you forcefully. Squeeze the bag in. It'll allow you to push air into the airway you. It's been a while since they recommended actual mouth to mouth resuscitation by the layperson. So if you come upon someone in itself who's and breathing you can start by giving compressions until someone shows up that has more advanced life support equipment available your general advice for the public if they want to go out and enjoy the beach and also sort of assist the lifeguards in their and their jobs based on their behaviour general advice would be. Make sure that you know the local rules. I'm from Southern California. In southern California there are different entities. That are that run different beaches so the rules are a little bit different in every city or county so you need to be aware of what the rules are and the the. Lifeguards can help you by answering those questions for you. If the rules say that you have to keep moving and can't sit on the beach or can't congregate with your friends then. Please obey the rules. Because not obeying the rules takes the focus off of the safety of everyone involved not just the persons that are visiting the fact that if you get if you live close enough to a body of water and you can go down there and follow the rules but get go for a walk because nature is still out there. It's still beautiful. I tried to get outside every day and get near the water or in the water. But if you can't then I just have to wait until the opportunity. The word has become where it does become available. That's gusts Allah president of the United States Lifesaving Association Gus. Thank you so much. You're welcome talking. Businesses that are outdoors have been reopening and parts of the country including restaurants with outdoor seating garden stores. Those that didn't close in the first place and drive in movie theaters. But what about their indoor counterparts? Can you imagine having a meal with a mask? On Derek Thompson has been looking at the research into how the virus spreads indoors. He senior editor at the Atlantic joins us from Washington every Monday. So Derrick welcome back to be here and you and everyone. They're looking at how to make you know. Indoor dining for instance save now tomorrow. We're going to speak with a researcher about the role of air conditioning in spreading a virus indoors. How maybe the kind of air conditioner makes a difference But also what might actually kill indoor viruses? What's being tried in other countries But you've lifted other studies from the CDC that show how a virus spreads indoors start with research about a Korean call center. What were the findings? There yeah this is a really extraordinary study from the Korea. Cdc So basically in early March the Korea CDC learns that there are some sick individuals who are going to call center in downtown. Seoul a realized that these people work in the eighth floor of a nineteen story mixed use building so there are hundreds of offices hundreds of apartments and they think. Oh my God. The possibility of a mass outbreak at this place is extraordinary but when they investigate what they find is really interesting about one hundred patients in the entire building of about a thousand test positive. But they're all on one floor and more than that they're all on one side of the floor in one densely packed phone bank so at the CDC determine from this study was the fact that people got so much sicker on one side of the floor than the other suggest. It's not just about shared elevator space or shared lobby space. It's about shared air. That if you're sitting in a tightly packed unventilated space huffing and puffing with a bunch of other people you're breathing in this spray of toxic droplets. That people are emitting when they're talking and that that is the main vector transmissibility and what this says more broadly about all of our indoor spaces is that what seems to be most dangerous. Are these spaces? That are tightly. Packed close spaces were lots of people are going to be talking and so they're going to be breathing in a lot of the same air that seems to be the most dangerous place where you can see the transmission of covert nineteen. Let's say a bar you know. Many people are packing bars. But it sounds like they are saying that if you're in an elevator nobody's talking and you're only in there for a couple of minutes as opposed to people who are talking for a living. 'cause IT'S A call center and they're tightly packed together for a long time. That's a huge difference. Yeah from the Public Health experts that I've spoken to. I would say it's a spectrum of risk you don't WanNa be in an elevator that suddenly breaks with four other people if one of those people has coverted nineteen but loud speech in particular emits a spray of fluid droplets so people who are talking loudly. If you're in a call center you are being paid to constantly talk another really good example. A really bad example is someone actually who spent a lot of time. Acting in being in plays is in music. Rehearsals there's been other studies that have shown that there's been huge outbreaks in. Choral rehearsals when you get a bunch of people together. That are singing into each other's faces once again you're getting the spray of fluid droplets and that is really dangerous too so I think what the public health experts would say is think about this as a spectrum if you're in a close base with people that are wearing masks and not talking. That's definitely a lot safer than being in a similarly close Place where there aren't mask. People are talking constantly but at the same time you do I think in general wants to avoid being tightly closed unventilated space with other people. If one of them is sick and you mentioned the choir practice there was that one in Washington State Sixty one people attended later. There were thirty two confirmed cases in that group very serious cases and two deaths. So there's that example of how they not only were singing with everything that is brought to that. They were together when they were doing that. You know this is all reminding me just reading that during the nineteen eighteen flu pandemic in Boston. There were fine for people who are called big talkers people. We're just loud and emitted a so. They had a sense back then that it was the amount of energy behind your speeches. Well what does that mean for like you know sporting events? This is a really good question. I mean you're already seeing in places like South Korea that are beginning very slowly to open up professional sports at their starting without fans. And that's because if you're a fan of of your team and they hit a home run or you're watching basketball and someone hits a three two win the game. You want to scream. But that very same instinct that is cherish abol in normal circumstances secondly becomes potentially toxic during an epidemic. And so I think I've spoken to healthy building. Experts thinking exactly about how we can get back to normalcy even before a vaccine in sports stadiums but it simply requires not feeling though. Stadium's capacity requires queuing up lines. The people can constantly remain socially distanced even if they are wearing masks. You'RE NOT GONNA get back. The same level of normality in a world. Where normal behavior is suddenly so dangerous? Yeah you'RE NOT GONNA go right Thompson. Senior editor at the Atlantic. Thanks as always thank you so the takeaway there we is. Beware the talkers here. Now is a production of NPR and WR Association of the BBC World Service on Robbie. I'm Tanya mostly this is here.