we get support from Doubleday the publishers of never enough the neuroscience and experience of addiction written by Judith griselle. Who is both a neuroscientist and a recovered drug addict. In her new book never enough. Judith uses easy to understand brain science and personal stories to reveal how the addiction cycle happens as we all struggle to confront America's growing addiction crisis. Never enough is the accessible and thority Tatum guide. We've been waiting for so go get yours today. Ever. And we're going on tour t t FAA live is coming to a city near you along with the launch of my new book. No, happy endings. You can catch us in Brooklyn. Saint Paul Austin, Texas, Portland, Oregon, Los Angeles, California, Washington, DC and Toronto Ontario, Canada, go to TEFA dot org slash events and buy a ticket or nine. I'm Nora mcnerney. And this is terrible. Thanks for asking. Basically every child of a certain era children who've seen the parent trap. Either version, by the way, Hayley mills or Lindsay Lohan or to use an even more current reference for some of our younger listeners fans of the Olsen twins. Right. I desperately wanted to be a twin. When I was a kid. I thought that even possibly there was a chance that I was a twin. And may be my parents, I I don't know for personal reasons could only keep one of us, and they kept me. I remember actually asking my dad more than once, by the way. Do I have a twin that I don't know about and his eyes would get big. And he would be like God. No jesus. Thank god. And I think what he meant was you're so special to me how could there be two of you? That's how I choose to interpret that memory anyway, when I meet twins gush about the parent trap and the Olsen twins and how much I wish I were a twin. Because I think everyone wants to be a twin being twin is absolutely in my opinion. The best thing that can happen to someone and it happens right at birth. So you're starting off your life in the best possible situation. I'm one of the jokes that Jodi nice to say is people will say do you like me twin and we laugh him like, well, we don't really know any different right? But the truth is like we did know we didn't know that it was really cool and really special Mahan it better than anybody else. We just want to make the rest of you feel bad. That's Michelle confirming all of my insecurities bragging, just straight up bragging to me how great it is to be a twin indefinitely making me feel bad Michelle and her twin sister Jenny are twins. And they got to do all the fun things that twins do in movies. Those things are real, okay? Like switching places in high school on the sports team field court there'd be on the bench. She'd be runnin plays making all her shots, and she gives a little winded or tired, and we wanted it to shake it up. So then they would take her out of the game and put me in. And so we confuse everybody on the court. I come in. They'd be like she's not as good as she used to be. But there I would be trying to play my defense up and down the court, and then they Popper back in the game. And yeah, hot science steak from TTFI. We can confirm what the rest of us all non twins have always known in our hearts dreams. They can read each other's minds to we have this game called cahoots when we were kids, which was awesome. It really was just a magic trick. But we had everybody in our lives convinced that we could read each other's minds. And so we would think of an object in the mid say are being the other one would say, yes. And then we would guess the object. I'm not going to tell you how we did it. I'm never going to disclose the secret. But it was the solid party trick our entire life together. I mean, it's probably true that like any close set of siblings, or, you know, really close friend you have that sort of connection that understanding with. But I do think it's next level. When your twin my mom used to say that when we were kids. She tells a story that if one of us got hurt the other one would start crying not the one who's actually hurt. And I can't even tell you. How many times we live across country that we would call each other. And just with that kind of Erie feeling is that something was going on. Like, hey, tell me what's up something's not right? And we were usually spot on we have some of those like just fun twin moments where we both bought the same sweater at banana Republic. I bought one in California. She bought it in New York like on the same day. There definitely were some very twenty moments. The two of them were so connected. They were so instinct, so of course, Michelle feels like she should have seen it coming. She should have known. A great way to know anyone is to know about their relationships Jenny's most important relationship. Longest one was Michelle. But a tie was her husband, Pat. That was the kind of guy who would fly across the country to go to a high school reunion with his girlfriend and all of her friends and his girlfriend's twin sister who he was meeting for the first time. So the first time that Michelle was she picked me up at the airport. And she gave me a hug the first time which as a New Yorker, I'm definitely not used to. But that's Michelle I think that airport pickups are like they're kind of like a top tier to deal for another person in my opinion, like saying that you'll pick someone up from the airport is like that's a big. That's a big gesture. It's a big gesture, and especially when you're meeting your wife's identical twin sister for the first time, I was more. I was more nervous about that. That meeting her parents. If Sheldon like me was that was a non starter. I was out. But Pat made it he was in which was good because he really wanted things to go. Well, he liked Jenny from the start a lot patent Jennie had met after years of almost meeting. They worked in the same industry. They had lots of friends in common and one of those common friends, Nikki had been telling each of them for years they had to come meet one another. But anyone who has a friend like, Nikki, a friend who's insisting that they met the perfect person for you. I mean, you know, it usually is not the perfect person so patent Jenny avoided it for years. They avoided each other. They avoided meeting until the both attended Nikki's going away party. And Nikki finally got her way. They say timing, obviously is everything, but our timing could not have been more strained and worse. I can remember this. We went out Friday night. A small little bar on Irving place in New York, and we had a great time. But in New York, especially in the New York dating scene. Ninety nine percent of the time. You never see that person again. So even when you have a great time, you always have this in the back of your head like well that was it. But Jenny was actually if amiss for misplacing her phone all the time. So I I called asking for a second date knitted here from her for about six days because it lost her phone. My father was dying of cancer in hospital. And I got a call on the morning of the date that my sisters, and I needed to get to the hospital immediately that he was not going to last for more than a couple of hours. And so we needed to go and say our goodbyes at that point. You know, this is first thing in the morning. I jump in a cab, and I lived in Brooklyn at the time, and I'm going over the Brooklyn Bridge, and I call Jenny, and I you know, I have to explain to this woman who I barely know that hey, I I have to cancel our dates tonight because my father is going to die today. And you know, I'm sorry. And when I you know, when I hung up the phone, I left her voice mail when I hung up the phone. I said to myself, well, you'll never ever hear from this woman again. But there are bigger things to think about at the moment. Pat's father died and the grieving process began. And then the phone did ring it's Jenny. And she says to me that, you know, hey, I'm craving the specific kind of hamburger that they make at the restaurant next to your office. And I'm gonna be there tonight at six o'clock. And if you would like to join me that would be great, you can talk all you want. You could tell me anything about you know, what happened or you could say nothing and just if you want company, whatever you want, I'll be there with a burger, and it would be great to see you. I guess you could call that a second date. We ended up staying at that burger place for about four hours. First of all, it was the kindest thing that anyone's ever done for me. And completely changed. The feeling of that year. What what really, you know, could have been a pretty horrible year. Just one eighty so. You know from that moment on I knew that I'd met somebody pretty special. Jenny. And Pat got married seventeen months later. She was the love of pets life and the love of Michelle's to my dad's said at both of our weddings, when you're marrying a twin you're marrying forty-nine percent of the other twin, and it's totally true. So but with bad, and my husband have always been gracious understanding that they got like a DO like a package deal and marrying one of us Jenny and Michelle were a package deal with a couple thousand miles in between them Michelle and her family live in California. And Pat and Jenny were die hard New Yorkers. But it was still a no brainer that Michelle would fly across the country for the birth of Jenny's first child, even if Michelle and her family were about to move out of the house. They lived in for eight years. So here's the thing with twin telepathy. Right. So she we could look intrinsically at the scientific data. You know, I gave birth early for both of my kids. And I had a certain kind of delivery in that kind of thing. So of course, we would make the deduction. Okay. She's probably going to go into labor little bit early spying feel this way. It's this is how it's going to go down. So we plot in planned. You know, the way that we thought it would happen. And so we decided I should definitely go out about a week before her due date. Just in case Michelle in their parents, flew out a week before the due date and spent that time in New York City with Jenny and Pat doing all their favorite things. And so it was really awesome to be there. Just watching like reruns of sister, wives, and law and order. Walks the classics. We really watched highbrow TV together. And giving her a little back rub is in foot- rubs and going out to you know, quick dinners, and that kind of thing and watching her take naps a lot all of that. So it was it was really special time with her. It was a really special time except that teddy Jenny and pats baby refused to be born the countdown to Michelle's departure approached and still no teddy. Michelle had already extended her trip once and been there ten days in this just was not the plan. My plan was to fly out being New York and stay there until the twenty ninth. And I be back just in time for the move which was really important, right? Like, I couldn't leave. My husband my kids city that solo Michelle was anguished, but she has to fly back home and help her family move. And as soon as she's all packed up Jenny goes into labor, of course. Right. Tap inning. She's finally going to meet teddy. Michelle changed her flight and prepared to become an. An aunt except of course, not Jenny was in labor, but not dilated and after twenty hours of just sitting around in the hospital Jenny looked at her twin sister and said oughta here, go home. I've got my husband. I've got our mom. I've got this. Go move into your new house and come out for our birthday next week. You can spend the whole time holding teddy. So I kissed her. And I said, okay, I'm going to see you in five days and wouldn't be holding any real soon. So Michelle went she grabbed her bag hailed a cab and hustled out to the airport back towards her husband and her kids, I was riding high. I mean, it was like I didn't even need airplane. I was just I was on cloud nine literally thinking about when I land probably going to be an aunt a moving to my dream house like life is about as perfect as I could imagine it. I mean, it really it really was. I mean here I knew that Johnny was going to be a mom with this. Awesome. Husband. She was about to start the stern of motherhood which was going to be so incredible. Because I knew how amazing it was and the plane landed I immediately turn my phone on. And it was awesome. There a text from Jimmy shell. I did it only twenty six minutes of pushing Teddy's here. So it was just it was the perfect text much. I was just laughing. Like, of course, that's stunning right for context, you should know that Jenny was a little competitive and Michelle took twenty eight minutes pushing out her youngest child so Jenny one. Then there was like follow text. For my mom, Pat, and pictures of all of them, and it was awesome. I'm just bawling tears of joy. I'm so excited. I'm still on the plane. I'm just waiting to like, you know, Debord the plane so I can call them. All I call my mom, no answer. Call johnny. No answer. No answer. So kept calling Johnny no answer. Mom, Louw answer. Like come on guys. Like any details here. Right. And then I got a call from my husband, and he says he shall I'm just pulling into the airport. I'm gonna meet you. I'm gonna meet you here. And I'm like, oh my God. How cool are you took the day off like you're so pumped about our house? You're gonna come pick me out like awesome. So many from my bag. I know he's out there. I'm just like riding high on my phone rings. And it was my mom and all she said was go. Find Ayman you're booked on the next slide back something's really wrong. I don't understand. And she said there's been a major incident which any and I said she live. She said for now, but you need to get back. And I just remember like absolutely collapsing on the floor. Also, my phone was dying. Because of course, you know, homes are my mom had like accidentally stolen, my phone charger overnight in the hospital, and so I was like out of juice almost entirely, and so I just remember screaming in the baggage claim link I knew phone chargers compete phone charger. Some amazing man comes over and gives me hug and Hansie. One of those like portable ones, so I plug in. I get my bag. I go out and Ayman's waiting for me. And I'm I'm -solutely beside myself. And I'm like what is happening. What is going on? He said, I just don't have that many details, I know that Johnny collapsed. Keno that she's not, okay. And I just got you on the flight back of the plane. You got off of Nick set, you have to stay home. You have to move fast. You don't miss your flight. And so we took my bag because I didn't want to have to recheck my bags. I just remember balling taking my bag and dumping it out on the airport floor. I just grabbed two or three things I threw it like an duffle took off running. Michelle got back on the plane that had just taken her to California, but you not riding high this time she took her middle seat and tried to keep her shit together. Thinking maybe a movie would help the time pass faster. She put on Forrest Gump, which should get her through about half the flight. But remember that movie remember one of the main characters, and what her name is done for those Jenny. Always again, Jimmy. Jenny Jenny Jenny Jenny Jenny Jenny jenness Ginny. Jenny Jenny Jake Ginny. Ginny gin. I'm just bawling and bowling over. Again, just thing prayers. And I'm just I don't even know I made at that time in half hours. I just thought straight ahead did not move muscle. How could this whatever this is how could this have happened? How could she not know why had her twin tuition failed? Why had let her leave her sister side and fly all the way across the country. When the plane finally landed in New York Michelle had been on airplanes and in cabs airports for about thirteen hours. She was back in Jenny's city, but still miles away from her. Michelle still had that kind man's phone charger. When the plane landed she made one call to her mother, and she said, you're not too late. Just get here. The taxi ride back to Jenny's hospital room was silent. Michelle didn't call her family. She didn't taxed she just needed to get to our Jenny. When she walked back into that hospital room that twin telepathy kicked back in. And she was in a coma. And the second I saw her. I knew she was gone. She had had a pulmonary embolism. And they spend a lot of time Turner resuscitate her and she was brain dead spring dead. At that moment, we didn't know that we still had the hope that maybe she could come out of this. But I knew the second. I saw her. I knew. Yeah. We'll be right back. We get support from four hers women's wellness brand putting your body back in control, you know, it's real hassle getting birth control. It's absurd. Your birth control should be delivered to you. When you need it where you need it without judgment, and with your physician available to answer any questions, you might have with four hers. There's no need to take travel time out of your busy day four provides access to licensed doctors online who can evaluate you. And if appropriate prescribe you birth control that can be delivered direct your door. No more booking time off to go to an in-person. 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I love my ritual vitamins they actually got delivered to my door yesterday because the subscription is easy to start. And if I get behind which I am not don't accuse me of that. It is easy to snooze on my monthly order getting all the essential nutrients. Your body. Meads ends up costing only dollar a day. That's a pretty good deal. Better health does not happen overnight so help fill the gaps in your diet with essential for women. A small step that helps support healthy foundation for your Bod. Visit ritual dot com slash thanks to start your ritual today. That's. Ritual dot com slash. We're back. Michelle Jenny were surprised twins their parents knew they were having a baby, obviously. But the only baby they knew about this Jenny. It was Jenny's heartbeat. They heard and Jenny they plan to give birth to even had the name picked out, Jennifer, Michelle. And then Jenny was born she was four pounds. We were really premature four pounds. She gets whisked away. The see something else in there. And I thought I was actually a tumor. Which to ten years later. Remember, the Arnold Schwarzenegger movie. Like are. That movie, by the way, you're not a film aficionado that movies kindergarten cop. Michelle was the baby nobody expected. They didn't have a crib for her. They didn't have a name for her. But yeah, they split. Johnny's name. I took her other half off. We went in the world together. And it sounds really cheesy. But I really don't know. Can't remember that far back, but my gut in my late twin intuition tells me that. I had the will to survive because I didn't want to leave Johnny like, I wonder if there had been no, Johnny. If I would have made it we were meant to be together from like the very beginning. She was my life partner. She was my life partner before on my my awesome, husband and my kids. You know what? I mean. I love everybody in my family. But I love the most they love her the most. We're meant speedy Keller and is sad for me. Now. Like now when I go get my coffee, and I see the twins in the corner. I wanna go tell them like hug each other. Appreciate each other one of us going to die for. When a person dies so many versions of them are lost when Jenny died on February first both Pat and Michelle lost their soulmate. Michelle lost the person she'd known and loved for her entire life. Pat, lost the person he was planning to spend the rest of his life with and teddy had lost his mother. There was a stunned. Widow dad, twin twin to be read parents and a brand new baby. So now what? And I think I remember I think maybe Ayman has pulled him aside and said just saying, oh, man, if you wanna do this like I'm all win. I remember my brother-in-law Ayman Michelle's shells husband kind of pulled me into a private room in the hospital and. Said, hey, we'd love to have you guys come out to California, and and be with us, and you know, we'll help. And and so then said he wanted to come to California, and he wanted to come immediately and. That's how fast it happened. Just a few days later. I'm Michelle Jenny's birthday. Teddy was too young to fly commercial. So medical flight brought them from New York City to California. It was raining. I remember that we'd landed I'd Oakland airport in a rainstorm and. Jenny Michelle's aunt and uncle were there. We had we had piled this private plane full of kids stuff we had a. Stroller. We had a bassinet we had all kinds of just random stuff that we filled. So, you know, they show up with with two cars, and and we just fill it all with with teddy stuff. And and from there. It was. But a half hour drive to Michelle's and. I remember her opening the door and somehow having a huge smile on her face. I hardly remember that time, but the truth is. I think I really did feel joyful as I possibly could have in that moment because they were there. And that's the only thing I could have hoped for and wanted in lieu of not having Jenny. Which at that point. We didn't have a choice. So I don't want to call it the next best thing. But really this was the very best outcome for them to come be with us. I remember thinking to myself when we walked in the door. How joyful? Michelle looked legitimately joyful on a day. That should have been the farthest thing from joyful for her. And. I remember. Feeling like I had just done something smart. And I remember being in. Oh, just I look back on it now and it's shock. Ever. We're going on tour. TEFA live is coming to a city near you along with the launch of my new book. No, happy endings. You can catch us in Brooklyn. Saint Paul Austin, Texas, Portland, Oregon, Los Angeles, California, Washington, DC and Toronto Ontario, Canada, Goto, TEFA dot org slash events and buy a ticket or nine. We're back back into the second best scenario possible. Patten teddy arrived in California on Jenny and Michelle's thirty eighth birthday. But without Jenny the little boy who is supposed to be raised in New York City is now officially a California. Boy. Patten teddy are moving into the new house that Michelle's family just moved into all of them. Michelle's family of four patent Hetty and Jennie Michelle's. Parents former team. They make space for each other in their sudden new situation the handle the million billion pieces of paperwork that come from the death of a loved one. They plan to funerals one in California and one in New York. And while they're back in New York a few weeks after Jenny's death. There's one more thing to do when I came back to the apartment because when we left we sort of left and bit of rush, and I just wanted. One more day. That it felt like our place, you know, that that door could open at any minute. And it would be it would be genuine teddy. That apartment where Jenny had lived for fourteen years was just as they had left it in the same state as it was before she left for the hospital when they're only expectations to come home with their baby teddy. This is the apartment that she. And Pat shared one of the things that. That you realize about Jenny is her her love of and. Affinity for color. And I mean, I was a single dach- ler guy who just lived in white apartments before I met Jenny. And when I when I met her, I learned value of color, and, you know, her apartment was just it was just a rainbow. The place because Jenny wanted it to feel as much my home as it was her home. I she made room for me. And then we made room for teddy. One of the things that. Crushes me about this is that three of us were never together in that apartment. I just I just wanted. You know, our home to feel like our home even on that fantasy level for for one more time. And then. Just start dividing. Going through somebody's stuff. You know, your sister. You know, your wife, you can recall the conversations you had about the future of how you wanted to raise your family about the kind of kids you wanted to create you can read there will you can search through all of their belongings. You actually half deal show. Is there? Mike her dad was there an Amy one of Chinese closest friends were there. And they piece by piece we went through the stuff, you know, they took stuff that they wanted to keep I did the same. They sifted through those things the things of Jenny's past the things of her life, not only somebody's life. But the the life that they're planning on lady. Pat, did it like Jenny would've wanted it done? He donated all her fancy work clothes. He saved the best things for teddy. I wanted to surround him in his mother's for talker fee and his mother's favourite, art work and. You know, little pieces of. Stuff. What do I keep for teddy? You know, I'm trying to make decisions not in the best frame of mind for my son for like sixteen years from now, you know, what pieces of paper that have scribbles doodles on them are important versus ones I can just throw out. Because you just wanna see everything like your computer courts. Jenny saved every phone that she'd ever had. So we discovered a box of old blackberries and original iphones flip phones. You know, even the chords and the instructor. Wow. What do you do with a half used to of lipstick? You know, what do I do with the bandages that Jenny bought for the week or two after she would you know was supposed to come home from the hospital. What do you do with? You know, the salt and pepper shaker. I mean, just everything has symbolism to even in moments like that we were thinking what which anyone? After going through her g mail. We shut the countdown and after transferring things off of her phone we shut the phone down. It just gets to a point where after you have divided everything into their categories giving away what you wanted to give away and cap twit. You thought to keep you just start putting somebody's life in black garbage bags? Pat, dismantled the life that they had been living. They plan to live took down the crib. They'd set up. But the stuff is just stuff. There are no more answers. There's no more to discover about this person you loved not for Pat not for Michelle. From shallow be no more realizing that the two of you the same sweater on the same day. There will be no more moments of twin telepathy all those moments. You're planning to have his sisters, just poof. Disappear right. I'm just going through a box, and she had had the foresight to buy birthday present and a card, and it was they are waiting for me. So I saw it was for me, and my heart dropped because it was clear that she had intended it for me before I left New York after teddy had arrived, and I opened it was a necklace is actually kind of funny because the necklace itself is one of the uglier press. She's ever given me I have to say she had been there. I probably would have given her just a little bit crowd for it. I think maybe her pregnancy. Most you didn't have a lot of time to look for for just the right gift. But it just made me laugh because I wanted to tell her, you know, that I'd give it back to her to wear and I still have. But I have the necklace in the in this little round container boxes. She gave me sitting on my bedside table. And I have it there. But the most ironic thing is that in her car to me, and I'll never forget it. She said, you know, your shell happy anniversary. Here's just a little something for you. But this year, your real present is time with teddy and as much as you want with it or so glad to have you. And it sounds ominous. Now, right because I have as much time with Hetty as I. Effort dreamed oven. I love it. But who could have now. For all the hypothetical conversations, you have about what you want your life to be and what you'd want if you die. You're never thinking that those two realities are going to intersect so abruptly. Your life will end when your child is born. There's no planning for the minutia of raising a child for what should happen when he gets a splinter or if he refuses to go to school unless you allow him to wear a plush snake tied around his neck like a professional wrestler, which are personally fine with but doesn't work within his schools. Dress code. There's no laying out of what should happen when the unthinkable happens. There's only doing your best with what you've been given what you've left in the wake of a loss this big. There's only tuning into that intuition into that ever running TV channel in the background. And turning it up as best you can. What I remember about the early stages of raising a baby is chaos and fog, just an endless cycle of diapers and crying and feeding and sleeping, and that was a cycle that Pat was planning to go through with Jenny and that Michelle was planning to support as a long distance aunt who swoops in for a long visits of coddling and spoiling. Instead, Michelle quit all her contract clients and spent the first year of Teddy's life as a stay at home. Aunt Pat took a two month bereavement period and was able to keep his job with his New York City agency but worked from California. Michelle's kids for a while got a live in baby cousin. Michelle, Pat, got each other. Yeah. Early on we go to the doctor's appointments together. Tenny knee. We went and checked out daycares together patent teddy eventually moved into their own apartment less than a mile from Michelle and her husband, Amen, less than two miles from Jenny and Michelle's parents from a from just a pure physical space. You know, here we are two guys living with each other Forty-six years far, but we live in a rainbow. You know, I keep our apartment is colorful. I possibly can. And he and Michelle are still in this together. But they're also in this on their own. It's kind of the thing about grief is when you're grieving two versions of the same person. Here's a loneliness to that. Because only Pat MRs Jenny the wife. Only Michelle MRs Jenny the twin? That's what makes them very different new net. In high school, Michelle Jenny could pull a switcheroo on the basketball court or on the phone. They could pull it off for a few minutes at least and then go back to being themselves to being complementary forces that are made of the same stuff. What does teddy call you? Tough one right now. It's mama. But he called a lot of things and people, mama. So it's not used exclusively for me. But he does here my kids. Call me, mama and mom that makes sense Jenny. And Michelle have identical faces and voices. When Pat shows teddy photos of Jenny they look just like the woman who wipes his buttons. Sometimes tucks him into bed. But when he sees videos of Jenny he just snaps into attention. There's something else going on there that he must understand on some cellular subconscious level that that is looking at his mother. Teddy knows he doesn't know what it all means. But he knows. And of course, he'll know more as he gets older, and we'll be sad for him. And it will also be the only life. He knows nothing's clean. Nothing is nothing clean in any of this. The good things are interconnected to to a lot of difficult memories. But I, you know, I I'm just fascinated by the ways that every day. I see her in him to me he is Jenny. And he's essence of her. I'm bonded to him. Like a mother would be 'cause I've been with him since day one. But I'm his aunt like I am no replacement for her. There is no replacement for Jenny because she's not just gone for the big days. Teddy's birthday Michelle in Johnny's birthday Christmas. She's gone for the little things things. Like real housewives of Orange County. You watched the episode. I'm like, dude, I got it. Download with her like we got. Now, we gotta go back and forth about the outfits and silly stuff. And so I had shared that with my dad like early on just how much I missed like the daily interactions, and he said to me like what were your daily interactions? And then when I really thought about it. I was a little bit embarrassed. Because it really was like how much bacon is you. Eat this morning. What new air product. Is you try and like what happened on the real housewives? Right. And so my sweet sweet done started watching so much reality TV, many would start texting like, oh, did you see him on the keep up with? And just he's a desk for watching the wrong show. Like, no, it's not. It's not. But he he. This is very confusing. It's. All the shows. He was on people dot com like just trying to feed me like nuggets pop Coulter. So I could keep having the conversations which was so sweet. And a really really appreciate it. You know, sorry doubt. It's just not the same. It's just not the same. But really nice intention. It's not it's not ever going to be the same. That's my point. Is that? You're you never move on idea. Believe in moving forward as what we have to do. We have to do it especially for teddy for my kids. And for the fact that I do have a very happy full life. I mean, I do. It's never going to be the same way. It was it's never going to be. As happy as it should've could've been. But I know I have a lot to be grateful for and a lot to look forward to. And so I try to focus on that. But it's just not gonna be the same without her. I'll never be the same. Calf of me is gone. It's just gone. It's just gone and people sometimes do say things like, oh, how lucky that you have teddy and people do say things to Pat like, oh, how lucky that you have Michelle and she looks just like Jenny, and yes, they're all lucky to have each other. But also, this isn't the plan. It's the best. They can do in a situation that is so singular truly if there's anyone else in this exact situation. Please make yourself known. It's also hard and so lonely and so new. It's so foreign nobody has done this before there's no group that can support them. There's no group that says, oh, my wife died after giving birth and now I live near her identical twin and her husband and her family. It's all foreign again. It's so new all of it because teddy is still so little Jenny's death was traumatic when we talk it hasn't even been two years. I think about Jenny every second of the day. It's like it's like a TV that's on the same program, and it's playing all day long. So it's really hard to think farther down the road. I'm two years seems like a second, and it seems like a million years ago. Two years is a lot of time when you think about a life starting and no time, it's nothing when you're talking about a life ending. For Pat, and Michelle and her parents teddy is the center of their universe. Jenny is the invisible gravity holding them all together, they're doing their best to raise teddy in Jenny spirit. I call them promises to Jenny that is a promise that I that. I've made her that her son will absolutely be bilingual and. You know every night, you know, when we're getting ready for bed, and we say our goodbyes aren't good nights. I have a wall of a few pictures of of Janney on it. And we go over and we. You know, we say good night to momma and. You know, as we as we go along. I just I want her to be a living presence in his life. She is far too valuable to important. A human being that. He'll never know. But I want him. To have a connection with her. The question always is what would wants I grew up, Christian and Catholic. So there's the WW J D. What would Jesus do that we with? But for me, it feels like what would you do? What would Jenny do? Kind of an impossible question to answer. But the only two people who are qualified to try to answer it. Are in this together. After we talked. I kept thinking back to Jenny and Michelle and their relationship, and then how Pat fit into their relationship how he respected their twin? This the way Michelle's husband amended. How Michelle helped Pat pick out Jenny's engagement ring? How Pat asked Michelle for Johnny's hand in marriage. A patent Michelle met at the airport on their way to a high school, reunion and clicked. Shell when she was cleaning out her twin sisters apartment found birthday gift. The Jennie had bought for her before she died already wrapped how win Michelle was trying to conceive Jenny told her that she would one hundred percent have a baby for her. If it ever came to that. How Jenny was always a step ahead of what everyone knew they needed. Hoshi in Michelle, even when they weren't playing mind games with people were always in cahoots. I kept thinking about that connection that Jenny and Michelle shared and where it goes now. But how connected so many of us feel to the people? We've lost wherever we believe they go when they died. And now that twin telepathy that Michelle Jenny shared probably doesn't go away completely. And I kept thinking about teddy. This living breathing connection to Jenny who has his mom's laugh and smile and her love of books. About how Michelle is not a replacement for Jenny and neither is teddy. And neither is Pat. But the three of them in their own little way, we're all doing their best for one another and with one another. Just like Jenny would have done. I'm Nora back Nurmi, and this has been terrible. Thanks for asking. I got a book recommendation that I might have shared already, but I'm very into it is called anxiety, the missing stage of grief. So if you are grieving a person, or you know, somebody who has near slick trend understand it more threatened by Claire Bidwell Smith, and she is a licensed therapist, which is a grief counselor. I don't really know what the difference is. But it's a good rate. Homs? What's your name? Hans Bill Beutel, our senior producer. It's not gonna tell me Milan. That's Marcel Malibu is our assistant producer Hanmi cut. Ross is the producer of our lives. Anna Wagle got help from Anna Wagle on production and drums. Great hair. Just great new hair has a great new hairstyle. Jeffrey Wilson made our theme music, and we are production of APM American public media.