bird goes on media. This is coming out stories. They cost about one of the most important conversations. If your life I'm swell giant giant all Jesse depending on when he catch them because they identify as gender fluid I would say identify as non binary gender fluid person non binary so you don't feel entirely male or in tiny female any time not correct. Yeah I'm just make a person who just flirts between in the binary as police but useful quite dramatically. Now the way you say you are the present very mild or you present very famous. That's the choice. Yeah I do. And it's an open field because there's a lot of people who are non binary who will rarely rock a bit where Farah face of makeup and address for us us just not. I think everybody has their own style. Not really me. So what is you preferred to dress. Does it depend on the day. It kinda does I mean it's as with because biologically I was born male no obviously gun free male puberty and I'm now essentially a grown male adults for maybe a different life. I fo- may have been aware of stuff I am now. A may have transitioned as as a young child and now more feminine for Astill reckoner would be a non Viner is old. It's not it's not like you're saying it's too late transition. I certainly know people who are in the fifties sixties. It might say it's twenty twenty seven twenty seven. It's never too late. Never for I think for transition for people is unique to them in their circumstances and situation. I believe everyone has choice. Never run as a path and I'm happy with a life. I although maybe if a new now new then gunned down a different route. I don't want to on that route now because I'm happy the way things about pronouns which do you prefer like today Marla. densify would be offended of us who to Heo him. No not all I'm I think again. I think it's personal to the person. Everybody's so different. I have friends out there who is specifically they in them. They do not want to identify female. All male the strictly binary they sell they are a great person on the mound for teams. That have he's been around for her and it's quite interesting because a law languages don't even have gender in them Nothing Turkish is one. That is no he or she is no pronouns agenda but for me no I think a a lot of my life has been male dominated so for me to switch off. It's going to be a big adjustment for people could go their bought Ryan on. I'm just happy to to kind of go with. Hey Shay they manifest presenting like now if Aclu Heo him but he'll presenting is just the perfect he machine correct correct. Not that works with me. It's totally fine. I've been caught a lot worse fishbowl. So how do you think you when you first saw not like the boys's leases schools. As a child I knew from being small that was different. MADONNA COM address. New moms close as a small small small child. Old probably say three or four has elliot's I kind of sent me down a different path because the first reaction was to kind of make a joke and embarrassing Matt Him for not everyone is doing this and then as a child. You think it's wrong not allowed to do this. Issue shouldn't do that so but can you remember that about. Can you remember yet. What would it felt like when you just close a couple of talking just felt it was just something that I knew how to try and experience it was just I was just drawn ron to it like I come also drawn to play? Football are watching the box and all the AFC which is something that no matter how far away and I always was drawn to the feminine side of things as well. And how else did you express it though you say you you just closed because it was that old data until it got car and then I think it had a love. You've trans all gay people are LGBTQ. I people doing. That's run from who the I spent a lifetime being the complete opposite as a quote from the situation and so quite recently rather the past couple years rarely decided. I'm a grown person. Can face who I am so really sounds like you went from the ages four to about twenty five so of suppressing that side a hundred percent I think especially because it's for coming out stories for me Kahad to come out to myself before. Come out to anyone else. It was still a battle. I'm not list person. I can't do that You know always consumed by guilt and shame and fear of what other people think and then they just got to the point where I was lat long. Do nothing wrong. Good not hurting anybody. I'm just being me and expressing myself and it went from the era real. How did he manage the command to yourself? An certain for some people to spend too that she said it out loud beat themselves in the mirror. I actually don't know both the exact moment it was kind of. I went to a fancy dress party of friends and I want as as a female and I just knew that moment average out to Gordon then I was probably happier on that night than had been For a lot of overtime so I think it was after the Oklahoma Ryan needs to have a hot with myself as well. It was the people. How did it feel them when you were out this front suggest polity and you put a frog on a new actually in front of your friends and your partner in what what was supposedly fancy chest but it was more than that? Yeah it was it was it was definitely more at an allergist play the greedier and jokes about I enjoyed too much. I'm really I was just in my element. Let's different nice and this was literally a couple of years ago. Yeah my more my maybe about four or five years and the moments the first moment you went out and bought address for your cells and so I'm really kind of Pissy. The severely account ignores any longer maybe eighteen months ago two years ago I think I think my first Nile is. Jesse was about two years ago on Canal Street in the gay village in Manchester. The certainly was and it was great. Carell amazing I mean friends. We had to make a passage me as in movies com for the full. She's on for hours still so friends. As when I'm ready on. My mind might not be ready to leave the hotel. I might just end up staying in because I was scared. See did it with friends and so you felt comfortable enough to tell people and yet well I say friends friends. Who was who's going on free similar stuff too? I was a giant social media and that gave me a whole new world of connection and all the people that was kind of when I also come to as myself because that social media people color themselves even if nobody else knows about it so I know plenty of people who are closeted on social media for their themselves on the social media just the rest of the people who don't know no he. The are pretty interesting so you came out to strangers essentially to begin with. Yeah pretty much. Yeah and in fact twitter's been important for thing doesn't it. Just this gave me a place to belong From all them years of you know being scattered telling friends or family off feeling the along with my own mind joined twitter original originalist to venture. There was other people like me and then it just opened up a whole new kind of williamson kind of caught some followers and and people let let me just tell you justice being called Jessie J. Either I get called called Jesse. Jj gesture the law Gal saw also. But you don't mind then fine as a man to let today your mail presenting say Jj. But then if I were to meet you in the evening in your old frock. How'd you have flowing with your mazing makeup? Probably anyway what was going to say was yes. Jj you say you've got some followers on twitter about eighty thousand Disner not quite much now for about seven so I think it's a lot. How did you get that many of that? Many people on twitter. It's a interested in your story. I think I think I mean the thing that I found was it gave me a place to belong and then as I become more confident kind of grown grown with the journey and a half people message Malalai followed you. When you want one follower all you know one hundred followers and now to see the journey through twitter has been quite incredible for them but also also through that platform? I've had so many people message me and say a married to a beautiful woman of kids all over this side account Salam. I don't know how to I know you've managed to do it. Can you help me do that. So it's been quite interested in seeing how many people want the support issues story so so tell us what that was like what you'll home situation. Yes Oh I'm happily married to a beautiful woman. I have two beautiful children and I have a really supportive. Liberal family moments great numbers brothers a grey. The everyone's been great reeler for I think I was. I was trapped in the prison of my own. Mind affair of coming out to them. ABSO- I came out to my wife life and that was after the fancy dress party of you know I was like this is serious any of this chat now. I know at the time I was fully prepared to lose my wife in terms. uh-huh of I didn't know how she will take. You know it's a big thing to say to somebody that I think a might lie. LACERRA might be gender fluid. I'm not sure what it is at at didn't know what her reaction was Osborne. New to go forward we had to be honest. And how did he phrase it on gender fluid Noah. I mean I'd never even heard of those terms by that I just it just explain the situation. I was just lie. We did this lawn. Suggest part in for me it felt amazing and explain the life of fellow bit different and how was racing on my chest and take her and she was amazing before she was like well. You know you still you still love for the person you also will go on the journey together and and that's where all started real pretty lucky. Thanks let's say you were really scared that you'd looser and she's been amazing Stola wardrobe now. She steals my but yeah now she's just been an incredible rock even fruit telling people and coming out with the people. She's always been she's offered to you know. Speak to people on my behalf. If that's been something of wanted today but rarely she's been great because it is a big thing and Jessica is not really the person she met. But we've we've made that she met. Jj who is your jj today. You go quite lots double emulsified gear on came in with Moscow. It's got and you blow key. Got Quite placate you up. I'm Agus Engineer Engineer. It's not like sort of gay booker jobs as sort. Yeah Feminine Room Now. I think that's I took a lot of people by surprise because I'm not like people assume you to be. You know eccentric ALCOM Tom. Paul flamboyant authentic found. This is not the case where the people are just then. Is it a case then because you say you just almost like another person news. It's almost like you've got to separate identity is weird kind of because it's a really difficult one the situation. I'm enough now still with my career and children. I'm still in the early stages of figuring out where it needs to be and where it's going to go So I'm just kind of keeping them a little bit separate just just for now while things panacea out you know just recently at like an x group of friends find out and stuff of who you know. Didn't take as well as a close people that and it's just insulate themselves down on the dosages and kind of figure out where I need to go kind of. Put them in Sacra boxes but for me. I may doesn't allow although I'm Jay Jay and I'm just as much Jessica so yeah I think he's TEPA that must've of her either knows people just not accepting just they don't understand it plus you. Yeah now I mean I've so much love and support around men and you know these people leave tries to mock me ever each about fight on them so I'm not really I'm I'm not to foster baller. I'm what about your kids. Because they're quite young to wear that or not really so my youngest is two so she's She's an angel. She she doesn't understand yet. GonNa pull out of the male this now which Wanna I met. You hadn't oh she's eight on a Before kind of probably came out of on. I did a fall to shoot my friend Patrick and he did some amazing photos and that was one back. I'M GONNA show people these and I shall enlighten me mother-in-law and a few of the people before they knew the full extent and just kind of told them a wildlife that was helping open a friend out and he's gone up in business and I offered to them so we show them a local the picture and she was quite well. That's amazing she. Kits are innocent. They're the only know what the tall So she she got it great and then at the CIA maybe month and a half ago. Hello and that was it was. She was amazing shave just like I don't care like long as you'll happy that it doesn't matter to me like the fine kids the sponges everything and that's why it's important for Lgbtq I- education and early age because the not tall. What's right and wrong don't grow up knowing that the tall what's right and wrong going to show them. Nice okay to be south and an express yourself and I think it will go a long way absolutely but I always we say hammer phobia and Transphobia is definitely taught. Children are not born with those. The no child is born racist on discriminative homophobic. Kid Denison touted to go with your parents telling them that you will gender fluid no not really see my. That's quite difficult difficult. Because he he doesn't open up with the best times. Not even some Amami Squire It just keeps everything to himself. He's great he's I know he's he has no problems. I want not boy. I'm still yet to have that conversation with madut whereas like spoken to my brothers about spoke to my Mama Spokane's everybody about bought my daughter Ayla Boys choice not we we avoided. I think I think my dad needs to a place where he's okay to talk about quite cool about it on my mom's awesome. Yeah she's she's often often. I did say a fantastic quote on twitter recently. Actually yes that's one. I did come out to my mom. She was just like incredible and and then introduced it to Jessica and we would go out the coffees and do also since she's really supportive then we come to the subject of telling everybody else because he was quite. It's quite hard to suppress like Kuala follow us on social media. I don't hide it. Just don't particularly push it down everyone's throat as well So we at the shop. I'll tell in the rest of the foam is not yet a think he should go for it. 'cause it's easier you know. Rather Than Someone Slip Awesome on stumble across and they have have to find out through other means You know these there was no pressure with WHO said encouragements talent and she just set the those that must have won't care and those that cow won't Mozza. Yeah she's right real it was. It was good advice. None of them cat. She's a wise woman. Say why she's regarding that she is. She's going back to this Thursday that you went out in public. As Jesse her doubt panel her was what was that like walking. In broad daylight in your address it wasn't offensive just pornography is great fell myself. I felt liberated and free. Sorry for the first time. So there's be me and gave me the confidence then I knew I could just be me and not worry about what people think i. Obviously he's in the safe zone so he's in Canal Street where people accept everything. But I kind of I kind of feel like everybody gets an open call about what other people think about you but then when you kind of out there. Everyone's wrapped up in their own life. No one cares what I've been out so many signs on the day Jesse and no one's bite an islet and it's just people are busy with their own life. They don't really Kelly what you do me off and it was difficult. Was it just an adjustment to go shopping and those lady shops and just getting yourself if mentally prepared rail is again. It's still something. I'm learning and growing with ball. I'm getting more confident every day. So I feel like you've been on a real journey and you're still only absolutely I mean that was on the radio yourself with Jesse not long ago and that was new. Yeah now he's got I'm growing. Oh and another thing. I think there's a lot multiple help to give. I feel like maybe in the pause someone the sort of identified as you in terms of your straight to your wife. You've got kids you've got TA h offers a gas engineer. And then you trust that was the fable of the Times may may be called a transvestite. Yeah definitely I I kind of I get I get that as well. I just think it's really difficult because the the different pasta people taking it doesn't mean he's right or wrong So you know. I know people who are transgender female as such but they you just can't transitional they won't just because either fair or life circumstances persecution or exclusion from the family and it doesn't make them a suppose any more or less is transient someone. WHO's you know? Bonds were billionaire family. Got Everyone except in them they can pay for surgery in transition. And there's GonNa be. No you know no concerns in the world and I just think everybody's everybody's path to where they're going to be completely different so I have friends. For example you know from Scotland and Ireland and they both they identify is a cross dresser. They're like no. It's nothing to gender denser a don't feel like a woman on the inside. I just enjoy dressing up that and that kind of wood Seymour's a transvestite transvestite lows in for me. You know tied with the idea of transition of tied to the idea of hormones and blow in the two. I've gone down every avenue mind. Uh No it's more. I wouldn't describe myself as six gender if I make sense kind of feel. That's the difference if he had to take one of those boxes. Then when you filling confirm or wherever it is what what would you take our tickle. The are Amax if that comes out soon hopefully it will next pass put one day maybe for say the plot Um Yeah I think the great scale just male or female that's for sure is wide spectrum. We office somewhere said taste to you. Think where you feel quite masculine still blurred. Think yeah definitely I think I think it will always taught me a long time to realize that was okay. Okay didn't have to just fix it. You know people. I know have to do this because that's me all of the time wasn't for me. It's not so when I actually stumbled across. Ross the term non binary and gender fluid than An. I researched it. That's when it really resonated as well. Well well that's okay. That's different I don't have to make a choice this I'm either but this or that I can kind of just be million and experience as it comes when you finish your day work in like fixing boilers and stuff. You come home to like takeoff really close and justice of women or whatever. It doesn't matter. Just you know closer. Close it doesn't matter. Aw I enjoy him close because the comfort in my opinion yeah. It just doesn't matter it was just think J J just to keep growing keep learning and I kind of feel now of a bit of a platform to do some good wants to do some good and and I'm confident enough in my own south to now be open and tell people who I am and hopefully inspire a few of the people to come out and tell people who are they are without being terrified. What advice would you give to other people to really questioning the gender identity in feeling unsure? What you a few years? I would have my advice would just be you know. Keep exploring keeping you. Don't be ashamed. Don't hide from it kind of commodity self. Find out what you are you WANNA BE WANNA fit and then once. You've got everything that you need to know that you can stop gem though the people because the last thing you need to do is kind of gift people mixed signals as well squad difficult. I mean I have a lot of friends simulate. Do I need to do this. This and I just love you going off on a tangent. Just relax and we'll we'll cross bridges as long as you're not sending mixed signals from nothing. That's that's pretty cool. Well well thank you for bringing you thank you for being here for the rest of your journey Ya. Jj talking to me. Because I do feel that kind of at the beginning of the journey and it's only very recently that they've been identifying as gender fluid. Please do subscribe. Dr Welby again focused from would also love to hear from you on twitter. We can find us at come out stories. I'm Emma goal swell coming out stories in what goes on media production next time round on coming out stories. You hear from Matthew Shafer he's an actor dancer choreographer and author author he so out and proud is a book called dancing out of the closet. He wasn't always out and proud. In fact he was in the closet till his twenties. He had a girlfriend because he was worried about ruining his career. At that point it was so far lied so long. I'd be trade so many people by saying oh I'm not I'm not. Ah The at that point. I was like fuck if I come out now. All of those people will be right and I will look like an asshole.