151|Future Data Interfaces with David Sheldon-Hicks
Screen and data becomes incredibly important. Because it's become so important in our lives. We're all living allies through screens. Well living on line. Three data were experience the world through aggregate data. And we're all told the power of fat. Hi everyone welcome to new episode of Data Stories. My name is much too fun and an independent designer of data visualizations. In fact I work as as a self-employed Truth and beauty operator out of my office here. In the countryside in the beautiful north Germany yes and am Enrico Brittany a Yemeni. A professor SORTA than were you in New York. CD where I do. Research and teach data visualization right. And on this podcast we talk about. Data visualization data analysis and generally generally the role data plays in our lives. And usually we do that together. With guest we invite on the show but before we start a quick note our podcast listener's supported so there's no ads. And if you enjoy the show please consider supporting ask recovering payments on patriots dot com slash data stories. Or if you prefer also have an option to send one time donations on pay Paul Dot me slash data stories yeah and any controversial abuses really super appreciated. If you don't have any spare money just re tweet. Our announcements are followers on social media. That's that's fine too so anything helps to keep the show running anyways enough about us and the show let's get started with our guest We have a very special guest today. David Sheldon Hicks. Hi David Ah David thank you for having me so David is a bit from the different field from what we usually draw guests from. But you'll see in a minute. How related it actually is to what what we do so David? Can you tell us a bit about what you do. and accompanied territories studio dose. Sure say My Name's David. We've been running territory studio now for nine years ten years some next year which is really exciting. And we I mean I always struggle with describing what we do but because people just don't believe us but essentially we are a specialist in using data data using two holograms fictional user. Interfaces in story telling my specifically for film but we work across all sorts of different projects With we've been fortunate what guarantees and also my company's computer games but really using that vision of the future and using data internal Jesus Taylor stories essentially right and of course this is something super interested in because as data virtualization specialists will often actually ask to make something look like h Voltron Voltron or futuristic and like information rich and so I think like clients often have these Hollywood in science fiction scenes in mind when you think about the future of data and action and so I think the work you do often really shapes also how we develop technology you know based based on what the these future visions are so just to give people an idea like can this help a few of the more well-known movies. Maybe that that you were part of with your work. Yeah sure so. It's actually quite scary to me that you see all workers as as as kind of influence in the UH say in terms of the sci-fi in fictional side of things that we've been working on most recently we've been really proud of working on bladerunner twenty forty now that was very cool project the motion X. McKenna Got Into the galaxy. We've really been blessed with some quite special projects more recently. What's implant mirror so it's It's quiet on credit list and it sounds a mater of when I say out loud but yet with we're very very fortunate this is awesome. So can you tell us a bit how this type of work like works. Like how do you work with the directors of the producer's like what's your brief leave or how about the process. Do Come at the end and you know just fit in the screens to whatever the actors do or how involved in these productions really so it can really change from project to project. I guess there's a few key examples as to how it might wet for us. So is something like the Martian And we were approached just as the script was completing And we got rid of the script. undestood understood the intended to the movie. Obviously we did. Our research read the book as well and then we went and sat with the art department and the Department really responsible for so the physical build of the film sets say anything that is put in front of the camera and the actors at the time shooting and often work is is actually live in front of the actors. It's not put in off the street and it's it's. It's a practical exactly exactly so with the Martian. You've you've got these scenes with the launch mission control and the launch screens there and also the bullpen. We might have two hundred different workstations and what with doing there is with trying to understand the data that NASA might when they screens. So there's a research phase in an and Ridley Scott was really smart in doing this. He participated up with a whole team. jet propulsion laps in the US. An an agenda Dave lavery who heads up one of these teams was really generous with his time and he would just spend hours with us on the phone. Right Really Louima just explaining also that day semaines and how how roles interact with that data. What is looking for and then how they it might be a knock on effect and the fascinating thing that I found around the way that NASA works is they don't use too much in the way of software interpretation of that data Saito? Actually that what they really want to understand the validity of the data coming through. How much can it be trusted? And how much interpretation do they have to apply to that. So we spend a lot of time trying to understand the roles at NASA and the source of the looking at but then you have this challenge of course. which is you have a film to write to the needs? I went time. I'll tell a story so we sit between those two roles really when we wanting to not underplay just incredible complexity that it would take in you know sending someone up to malls and then recalculating the trajectory of getting somebody to slingshot around the earth and back due to back to Mars in time window. And you really can't underplay that. Not many people believe you'd WanNa go back for Matt Damon so that's often a trick but they truly wanted to use this as a film that as much as possible could be bedded in reality and in some ways based on that projections for where technology on the types of data. That they'd be looking at would be fifty years or so in the future so we we wanted to be true to them and solve them with more fantastical films. We're having tomato up you know because data doesn't exist for some of the things that we're doing but in this case we just had somebody winning to feed us with that day to feed us the correct calculations to up on the screen. That's cool so that we celebrate those kind of external collaborations whenever we can get them because in all honesty. It means that we're doing this work so if we can if we can spend less time it's much more interesting texture than anything made up right. It's like more like more interesting simply. Yeah and I think the imperfections in that dangerous just just more authentic to the storytelling so so US understanding that data and how people use it and it's up to it was was really K- but then again then with with sitting official translation for Ridley to understand when he uses particular things to the point in the story Bates I and that's really tricky. Because it some of this stuff isn't immediately recognizable to a mass audience so specialist in the area. Yes not might be absolutely the way that they would do things. But how do you in a three second beats. Tell moment really concisely so story. Authenticity sometimes sometimes come up against one another and we have to find just interesting solutions. Full that the hopefully doesn't take us too far away reality from reality but equally still tells that story effectively and efficiently and so that was that was the tight rope that we trod whereas with a movie like that say ready player one or guardians of the galaxy we are doing is using data as a as a form of expression really. You're thinking about the the characters in the film you'll thinking about the wells being built and you're using the representation of data as a means to talking about not peasants row so it might. It might even say something about that. That point in society and Blade runner we had different technologies and different data sets. That would only be accessible across certain strasser also in society and the elites the corporate elites would have a very bespoke An and unique version of that data set as opposed to everyone else that might have access to another which is not too dissimilar formalities. Today I would say I think unique access to data just means the Uh Sutton people have a very unique and advantageous view of the world. Say I'm so so we really use it as an expression of current to replace and it becomes far more textual than it does become True true to the realities of it then then we find that. Actually we still need to keep to the formatting of data to keep it grounded to keep it that it inside that we don't completely lose the audience silence of course if you're designing an interface in the data set for walking talking tree. There's not an awful lot of research that we can do that. We can base it on a character that might be looking at navigation systems and I made some assumptions around the kind of the basic design. DNA that might fall into that. So we're constantly. Isn't he playing these between those opposites. I think that's the challenge. needs to be plausible and like sufficiently complex but at the same time offense just visible like for half a second second so people need to get the gist of it without even thinking right and I think that's it seems like such a huge challenge. Really Yeah it has the visual shorthand and some more than actually a formulated design really more like a sign of sorts. Absolutely absolutely absolutely because filmmaking is it does have to be very efficient it has to get a law across in a in a short space time but but we we always want to build in these layers of meaning so as a team. We would always do this research and we will always try to. When when given the time and the he will clear in terms of information security in India is no labels things we will speak to To NASA we will speak to military military technology specialists people that can give us a unique insight in terms of wet technologies headed a wet day to might be used for certain roles thus within a film and that's crucial to us because we found that by really think about the actors right right to and then translate back to reality and understanding real world. Rose we immediately bleed out design. That has meaning we you. It through Osmosis. Almost when thinking design at naturally flows so the more and more research. We can do the more that we can better sales in reality and truly understand the material that which designing full the better that we found out work and that's so important to film because there's there's a sense that if you get it right people will come back. Come Watch it and watch over and over again and they will discover the all the details and it's also satisfying if all the has make sense and not like you look into the realize. Oh it was just made up. Yeah so we always try and hold us a hold ourselves to a high standard of design. But sometimes timeframe's really do work against I us and we have to flowing data that's quite generic hopefully has enough research behind that at least it formats in the right way So one thing I was wondering David is how where do you take inspiration for your user interfaces in the you actually actually end up interacting with some researchers maybe to get his pediatrician about what is the current cutting edge of research in this space right. I think there's an interesting interplay between different figures right so I guess some researchers takings perations from from science fiction Sharon right but then maybe people like you go back to researchers in NC what they're currently doing some This happens in your case. Yes so John. We do whenever possible we will. We'll try and use Look S. I. Extra consultants to affluence the what we're doing on x smack another notable example visa code consultant and the consultant confessed. That means would he know what code looks like the the machine learning and thinking and Female robotic character but he could make a good guest in terms of the formatting of the code and and some of the the context was used and the beautiful thing about working with him his he was able to give a couple of Easter eggs. Say That when people pull is dead on the DVD they could compile the kite laden. Run a couple of programs that would send them to books about Offficial intelligence so these kind of extra just levels of detail for the people that care and everyday everyday people that we want to reward with some of what we're doing The is lovely to drop in those kinds of extra levels of meaning when we come. How about the interaction prior all right so Minority report. Probably one of these things. I might get a love hate relationship or a plane hate racial. Yeah well I think the plane hit the yeah. The the hate relationship comes from the fact that everyone references at the beach of thing thing about film directors as always reference. It as. Let's not let's not go over the same ground you know it's the same with iron man Whilst they wonderful the examples directors always looking for the next unique opportunity to create something new. So they're a wonderful client in that respect. The tricky thing is having to recreate the wheel every time it is quite tiring challenge Butts Minority Pool was wonderful in the IT started to help people think bound determined interactions beyond the obvious in storytelling. Say the reality in all field. I guess was that before minority report and a few other examples is the film ends the also had a wonderful touch screen display an object based interactions which which really well which is a bit before minority report is the I example. I can think of those films really considered the way that people use dates with the moments really boring you know. I don't really really want to watch a film about someone. Typing keyboard and using an excel spreadsheet doesn't sound particularly entertaining. But you have this problem in that film directors have after Echo our experiences of the world. Now they're making a boss they might be talking about science. Fiction is actually being used as a as a way to have a compensation about where we're headed where we are now so screen and data becomes incredibly important because it's become important. Allies rule living allies through scrolling. We're leaving on is Rita were experienced the world through aggregate data and we'll tell the power of fat and the and the the the story telling opportunities so direct his Ashli away from from this fulmer. They can't shy away from the need to use it in their films but even fiction setting. You still need to think about. How do they show that that message? Somebody exactly yeah. Yeah and Charlie Brooker last year on on Blattman. He's he's he's a great example really thinking about the impact of technology alive some what that means for storytelling. So that's that's been fascinating to see his process but in in in fact all the directors and show that we work with they will think in that way and they're looking for their unique opportunity to make comment on our use of technology. What it says about society besides him wherever wet it so So it is incredibly important to them and they repeat O- ground but the beautiful thing about minority report is it gave the actors opportunity to be more physical and to be more expressive and so we went over the shoulder looking down at their screen. We were seeing the days from the content at the same time that we were seeing them cruise waving his hands around and suddenly that becomes a really interesting narrative device. Say That really laid out the goal that's said to us. How do we do? We make daily roles in terms of using dates were in an engaging screens and use of technology. How do we make that engaging Zhang for entertainment purposes and telling story and that's really been our challenge Jefferson Studio we are constantly. Think about how do we stay sales to the medium but then how do we kind of keep pushing it and made. The kind of the high point is creating whether tree iconic that lives with people. I've I've worked on a few James Bond films. Now they're all cutting edge they date incredibly that's not just all work I think. That's you know the film in general. It's such a unique slice in time and I think that's okay you know. I think it's fine for we always look back on that word when astounding we can say a movie just very quickly looking looking at some of these films That I think if we can create icon Eq were the resonates with people for time is is a is a great ambition to have in that Retreat to a hot say when bladerunner came through. You know that was a unique opportunity to not only work on Justin credible edible film. I pay With an incredible director but it was a chance to create some work that had real meeting in the film. The use of technology was positive that will building the data that they were looking at was saying something about the state of society. And just really questioning. Is this where we want to be headed and that was a fascinating question. See think about yeah. I think that's such a good example. Like you mentioned the the aging aspect of certain looks are the how how quickly something looks dated or not. I think probably the industry's very short. Lived in that you say like Oh that's so spring bring twenty eighteen or something like this and so how do you how do you keep things fresh. And how do you like also escape. Maybe the typical visual cliches as an trump's people might often go for when they I think of like I use it interfaces. There's a beautiful like ninety. Nine percent visible Episode where they talk about that most future screens. I mostly blue. Like blue. Seems to be the color of the future but by repeating it again again it becomes old. Ah then and then you did something fresh right and how do you. How do you keep things? Fresh Water Festival. We listened to that blog and then we So I predict conservatory was premiered. theus and we made the move pink and orange as a as a reaction to that Any gardens the galaxy. We used every single single pallet that we possibly could Aluminum Gabriel pilot film. Say I think we always questioned prices. I think that's kind of the K.. And to be be very area. Where if you're influences I think what we've learned from what we filmed rights as especially is to question? You'll you'll springboard your brief. I think kind fooling the white brief at the very beginning becomes very important to that and then just being Of Your environmental conditions that may be could influence influence. You create a process so in a video Scott when he was briefing in Said just please forget about minority. Rebel ghetto pinterest. Ignore WHOA instagram. Forget about iron man what I want you know what when I breathe taught to Geiger and working with Geiger. Originally it it was all about nature a nature meeting machines. Now you're already working with machines. So how do we bring some nature to that and he was fascinated by the color ways the movements that dynamic systems that you see in Col- race in underwater sealife so he really wanted that to be an inspiration. Ration- that's quite an autistic inspiration to the way in which we use data in the film and you can see that in the kind of actual qualities of the holograms and the the screens. So we created Israel Minassian color overlays and vibrancy too old the steps away from as much as possible the salon and everything so so. That's something that I've learned from all film. Directors is truly you know. Get the brief right at the beginning and give your team a fighting chance that they can create something original. No I think one of the other things. We've kind of covered already. Is this notion of just not living in your world but understanding the people that trudy all going to be using during this data in a real world context so talking to NASA working with the military a good friend of mine a friend of mine now. it what's an anti-terrorism unit In London say just pulling on all these other outside influences that take you away from face. Shopping illustrator take you away from what can be done with the tools and understanding the roles and the ways in which that data will be used that immediately gives you a different way of approaching each project. So I think that's K.. And I think just turning off instagram turning off interest not following the trends has to be the way that you achieve. She thought yet. David I have a question regarding right the relationship between future futuristic interfaces and what actually ends up becoming coming Leo faces field products. I think there is a tension there between say. What is feasible not feasible? Yet from the technological standpoint in what is actually not not a good interface and and I think some a couple of good examples of what is happening right now I think voice interfaces and Vr ar have been around for a little bit right and used to be considered futuristic. And now they're kind of like taking over a little bit so there's a little bit of attention there so what's your what's your take there. Yeah so I think in Kutch leave. We're running at similar problems and because we Because we all maybe a little bit ahead of the curve in terms of how quickly we can deliver you. Don't film released those ideas first and then products come through offers the reason I know this because we with work across BIF- We're working with automative companies as we're working with sodium Microsoft. You know so we were looking at the white papers. We're all looking at where technology is headed where Woah understanding the trajectory and so you building out design solutions full of that also. These tech companies have realized that You need to build a new team solution solution. The new creative team solution for some of these new technologies coming through you know historically when we thought about data and user interfaces. It's been misty today and it's and it's been a use. A graphic design has really been kind of the leading design logic. This provides Obviously human incentivize coming from a slightly different place. But they're all skill sets that feel quite familia coming from other areas of kind of strategy. Russell dice visualization that. They'll kind of pre established I think with some of these new technologies coming through the needs to be different team mix I'm definitely saying this with the are the assumption that we can just take you. I knew X.. From existing skill sets and apply the over the top of love video content is just. It's just not right I actually think that spatial design needs to really come into this. Actually architects can add to this conversation or industrial designers. I think the what would what do Steven Spielberg player one. He was really interested in object based systems uh-huh that became the got away from a scrolling menu. And you just started thinking about maybe sharing a fall in the same way that you might throw someone on Apple It AH has. There's a different opportunity there. I'm why do we assume that the same layer and use of data and interaction can be applied. You know that we're seeing with flat screen work day. Think that's the case and I think it's a it's a missed opportunity but I think we're running at the same. We're applying the same solution because we Same creative team and I think we need to change US little bit a d think. There's a wonderful opportunity for bringing together. Maybe a film director a game designer and an architect solutions would come from that team. I think that would be really interesting And we've been playing without here because because we get to build up despite teen film projects within tape is teams meant the Melissa Bear and apply them to real world projects and is creating some really interesting results and things things that way getting to solutions for quicker. Because we're getting through the bad ideas fall quick to And it's just applying thank several different lenses on the same problem and I think it's a really fun interesting wife working because we've lent so much from external consultants and fully researching the problem limits. It's been it's been a really from what to what but yeah I think I think the that problem is is is a unique one. It's a new one and I think I think somebody will crack it saying but I still don't think it's been quite so yet. But it was thinking of the to when you mentioned sets designed that while part of the set is already virtual is done in calls and then you have your onscreen designs that are part of the physical set and everything starts to blend dryden at some point. You just creating this world you know and you just give the actors navient play in but the whole world of the movie be at some point is is digital right so yeah that's interesting way of telling stories but let's say bizarre actually we because we have kinds of very different sectors say We've games clients film clients. TV clans. People say go tech brands and automated and I can just see a moment. When will these conversations nations much? I think digital product specialists Data scientists storytellers retailers. It's all getting incredibly close And I think it could be a lot more sharing ideas across different fields. I'm to me was like technological tipping point when things converge all at once it definitely is it definitely is and I think the tools are starting to get out of the way the dust. The wonderful thing I think people say sometimes these tools actually a barrier but actually if you knowledge bases aces a good point they just kind of melt away in the same way that a pencil and paper does so if you can remove the level of translation than I think thank you can just on the creativity in the autism. You're much specif- place equals talking to friends will recently who Actually argued the opposite. And I think there's some truth in this too. which is the investment that it takes to learn a musical instrument? You you Anees stripes you. I'm getting a level of specialism and experience. That can only be learned through years of really hot work if if you would like published a widely now everybody say I don't get it done for you know again to learn exactly but I think there's something in that I think that that kind of Challenging people to get Pasta and interface just has ruled in itself so you kind of learning a musical instrument Owning and interface and learning a level of specialism a nuance Thing too so I think things will start to fragment c'mon out in section out on it will become a really interesting Time in the next ten years. I'm wondering if this is what is happening with. Voice interfaces is rate. I used to be at least for me personally. Used to be like I never used voice at all but now after seeing Alexa for some time time right now I go NAM using Siri and I did and never used it for for many many years right. So there's also the social component a- as you see more people using certain technology now you try to go the extra mine and learn a little bit how to use it and the more you use it that these year it gets so it's like I think we maybe sometimes make the mistake thinking that using a mouse and a keyboard than a screen. It just came natural to us. Yeah there's definitely definitely moments of Transparency this coming three with voice. This incredible I'm obviously I struggle with contributing voice because it doesn't need me with much work in film but I thought it was a really interesting movie. You know building up a relationship with and I was talking to it the whole time spent as well far better reference on okay. I think they're really really interesting. I think that transparency and that just weighs on digital liar. I think that's just gonNA come through more and more where you have displays as an embedded in surfaces so it looks like a wooden table but when you choose it just suddenly becomes a surface digital surface that you can work doc with so you don't really need to have devices. You may be go up to something wooo Table and it knows who you are. An ultimate Musset feed you or the software systems that you need for that day. Yeah Yeah and in order to show it was to make tangible invisible right. I I was just thinking like if the ultimate evolution is brain computer interfaces this really hard to to show right and like the same of course with minority report you know with all these big gestures and space. You know. It's everybody sees what you're looking at. Everybody sees what you're doing this in reality. It wouldn't work for a private email right nine. I I mean I think minority report would ready made because just exercise that it looks like you're biceps telling me a dream I think. And what are some some classic future data interfaces from the past like I I love just retro future is like someone they like what. What is a total classics? That maybe we missed out on or whatever you say that that was really really good and maybe underrated at the time and we just realized how oh how well put together. That old vision of the future was like somebody favorites. What the the one that sticks out to me from my childhood is we'll games which is about teenage boy with adult up modem and some of our listeners essentially it was a modem that connected to your telephone line they have very funny sound before logging in So that was the incident on the story guys that this teenage hacker hacked into the nuclear nuclear control system The US government and simulates Oviously causes panic on the money but it was my first exposure to seeing how the depiction of data on screens really had significant meaning in that storytelling moment layment. That couldn't really be told in the other way You know there are moments in the film where I think I need. I look will day or character interaction. Yeah most of the time we want to see people but there are other moments that has to be a big visual effects short. You know I need to see the death doll blowing up. I don't I wanna hear somebody telling me about that. I WanNa see it and they were just other moments where only data will really effectively tell that story and safer me me that film and I think also things like star wars. You know if you think about stall wasn't the mission briefing when they kind of approaching the death star to cliff you've said that torpedo down the little the little shafts. You had to use data to tell that story that had to be a visualization. They couldn't really be described in the other way. And is you know when the countdown to the distal coming around the moon and and And destroying the rebel base order. These moments are kind of really told with Data and information and. I think that's quite wonderful that a graphic designer Data visualization tool. ooh Can be used to tell quite significant moment in the film the other one that really sticks out to me and I think is probably the reason Terri Tree Stephen exists is the moment where all td two projects a hologram Princess Leia to everyone Canadian skywalker and that made me feel I won't I won. Three D Holograms for real I just think that seeing stories told projected in front of an audience in the same way that you might with its or in the rounds and three-dimensionality people there they are the world's being bill bill in full color. But you can see that as a shared experience and it's all three dimensional with all the Polish that you get from filmmaking the or the You don dynamism the get from theater and and live performance. I think that would be special. Say so that captured me that my I and then the three D. chest that's on the men in found Amendments really captured billion. I just thought that's that's a wonderful dream And so when we ended up working on things like geist in the shell where we crane holograms for the cityscapes. Holographic displays more recently for ready. Play wants unspecific rim. That was my moment to cut. If you dive into a little bit of that daydreaming and play back what that could look like and I'm sure we're not far from it now. It feels like technology in experiments and Aren t portraits. They're coming through the in my lifetime I might. Let's see a three dimensional projection of a story or three-dimensional articulation of a bit of data and three dimensions. Incheon might actually change all of our interpretations of that that bit of information and change something for the good or whatever it might be but I think that's that's fascinating fun of us. macy nick is that ultimately a vision that we are all in the space like dance like a virtual space overlaid the the the real world and we all experienced it's that virtual layer together. Is that sort of your your perfect vision for how to how to consume your creations ultimately. I think say somebody said to me. Why am I so hung up on programs with the HOLOGRAMS? Yeah I I I could see. You Think I'm excited by paradigm shifts. I think that's what treaty inspires me. So I remember when I was graduating from university I was really interested in Nick. deconstructivist movement so You know people like Call Jank Orem Some of the architects that are working in these fields where It was a complete shift moving on from postmodernism. Two completely different field and I think technology inspire is that if you think about the book but Bible and movable type or photography its impact on finances the shifts in technology shifts in techniques and tools. All just the change in structure in some way it shifts the the creative community just the design community and suddenly you have to respond in a completely different way and it just creates this flurry of energy and brand when you work and that fascinates me I think then that technology shifts the inspires. Creativity is just. It's just beautiful and I. I like being a part of that I think we we really relished. The kind of the constantly shifting that seeing the moment that constant innovation that's coming out globally and if we can apply design and data and animation to you that And ride that wave will constantly be producing hopefully the really resonates with people and and fills as though it's Telling good stories baby. I'm wondering if we can conclude conclude by maybe giving suggestions to our listeners wondering if anyone wants to pursue similar careers seems a little bit unconventional right. So what what would be tempted to say the right path but there's probably no right path but let's say there's someone listening to these. NBA really excited. What will be possible possible pass? Yeah I We were going through a strategic mating there today and we were trying to define fine what it is that we're looking for people now. I'm actually we have. It's almost like we one hundred people here in London. There's about twenty in San Francisco. Okay and the closest thing I can get to his mad inventor so somebody who is really interested and passionate nationa about different things so We've got great designer here. I'm kidding and he. He came from a traditional graphic design backgrounds. He's learn how to do interfaces for films. He constantly researches data and new tools and and just has a broader field of interest beyond design on animation. But I think just makes his really rich and I would say that of everyone here. They all seem to be generalists in that they can design Anonima. Automate will tell stories all story or whatever it might be. But then they kind of drill down really deep into specialisms in a very geeky nerdy way and I and we just took off his people and made sure that they have everything they need. Somebody with with a natural interest and intrigue in the world and this area of specialism whether it be storytelling design data technology. I think unique kind of need to be across cross a few of those different things. I was definitely I trained trained. Didn't and and had this kind of left brain right brain equal balance. I did art and photography but I mixed that up with Maths and physics and I think my parents just naturally thought I'd become architects laid out for me and I. It was absolutely horrified at how long it took an architecture graduate and then even more concerned that one project to build so I thought maybe you graphics might be a way of quickly iterating through that Meeting the process. But I but I do think that is an equal amount of creativity and Jake. That's required quite for this. You know real injury interest but a Catholic creativity and craft too and this is we are constantly treading that fine line between storytelling an authenticity around the data. So someone that kind of crosses those two areas would be would be ideal for us. Yeah I think you will find that that profile. Quite often and the data visualization community traces altogether right. The good news is the technical side and and and also not wanting to give up on one of those well we have a recruitment section on our website and very much looking for August. People say yeah. We're very busy very very busy. Lovely a new career comes out of this podcast for somebody aping keeping at least ten people. These happens and wonderful. Yeah thanks so much for joining us. I see so many cross connections actions now and I think it's very clear. That's about much more than just putting a few glowing rectangles on screen somewhere and really wonderful what you doing with the studio and can't wait to see the next few of your designs in the meantime. Thanks so much and see you soon. Thank you so much. It's been an absolute pleasure to committee. Yeah wonderful wonderful thank you thank you so much. Bye Bye bye. Hey folks thanks for listening to the data stories again before you leave a few last notes. This show is crowd funded and you can support us. UNPATRIOTIC AT PATRIOT DOT com slash data. Stories where we publish monthly previews of upcoming episodes supporters. Or you can also send us a one time donation via paypal at pay pal up me slash data stories or is a free way to support the show. 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