Amanpour: Jeremy Farrar, John Fetterman, Lee Van Horn and Mike Isaac
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Employers who post on Ziprecruiter get a quality candidate within the first day Ziprecruiter Ruder. The smartest way to hire see. Why ziprecruiter is effective for businesses of all sizes trust Ziprecruiter for free at our web address? ZIPRECRUITER DOT COM SLASH CNN pod. That's ziprecruiter dot com slash C. N. N. P. O. D.. Hello everyone and welcome to Amanpour. Here's what's coming up in. China Corona Virus Death Toll Soars and as it spreads to more than twenty five countries countries. I ask infectious disease experts. So Jeremy Farah how to contain it and America's now energy independent and energy jobs jobs like so many other elements of our country are at a record. High President trump goes all in for domestic oil and gas production reduction but could cause for fracking ban cost. Democrats crucial swing state votes in two thousand nine hundred ninety. I speak to Pennsylvania's Lieutenant Governor. A Democrat the crap and to the manager of a winter bind company there and the traveling drive for dominance in Silicon Valley with Mike. Is it also superpower. The battle for Uber. Welcome to the program. Everyone I'm Christiane Amanpour in New York with with only six hundred dead now and tens of thousands infected the Wuhan Corona virus shows no signs of slowing down and while the Chinese unease imposed severe quarantine restrictions. The disease makes it onto the cover of Time magazine as posing a major challenge to the government of President Xi Jingping thing today as the UK confirms its third case of the corona virus infection. The Chinese ambassador there had this message for Britain and the world. I hope that the governments of all countries including the UK should understand and support. China's efforts respect the professional advice of new age. A boy ogre reaction a boy boy creating panic and ensure the normal cooperation and exchanges between countries so with China a bit defensive. They're just how dangerous is this threat. So Jeremy Farah is a global expert on infectious disease and he's also director of the wellcome trust which which is one of the world's leading providers of non-governmental funding for biomedical research. And he's joining me now from London. Welcome to the program can I. Can I just start by us. New due to react as a medical researcher to the obvious plea by the Chinese ambassador who clearly feels you know the country's under siege. Yeah I've got a lot of sympathy for what he's saying. I mean we all know this started in the city of hand in in China But this this is not just a Chinese problem now and and Actually Federal Dr Federal said from. Who a couple of days ago. This is a time for solidarity not a time for division it it. It is time for us to work together. This could have started anywhere in truth You know when we face the two thousand nine pandemic The first case was probably they're you you know in Mexico or the United States. So you know we didn't Work against each other then we can work against each other of the now a lot of sympathy for what he was saying. Okay so sympathy for what he's saying. But what about the facts here because I mean look as you know there has been a huge confusion now. Chinese state media reported the death breath of the very young doctor. Thirty four year old doctor when Leong in Wuhan And that was reported on state media and it caused a huge amount of outpouring pouring on Chinese social media. People were very very upset about that so while they sought out the confusing fusion about whether he's dead or alive what might have happened had he not been censured by the Chinese authorities when he actually did go to them with this with this concern Cernan with this evidence in December. Yeah I don't know I don't know him personally but but All my thoughts go out to him and his family me. I desperately hope he Is Still Alive A number of doctors nurses in China and Wuhan itself have died. We know that I lost a lot friends. During SARS in two thousand two and two thousand and three and the bravery of these doctors nurses extraordinary. It's the same with the Bowler in the Democratic Republic Republic Congo It's very difficult to describe what it's like to be in the middle of that I don't know the details of Dr Lee went to the Chinese authorities. I don't you know what he went there saying On you about this on about the twenty ninth or thirtieth of December about the same time that. Who knew about this Since then I have to say that the sharing of information has actually been good or very good And I've not been aware of the Cover up that's gone on that sometimes being accused of. I think it's really important to put it into context when you're a doctor or a nurse or public health person working in this scenario it's chaos Wuhan at the moment is in lock down. The city deserves all our support public transport is closed. Workplaces are closed. The hospitals are absolutely the overwhelmed with patients. they're overwhelmed because they're in the middle of the influenza season as well and it's chaos and on a personal level it's terrifying Dealing with an infection that none of us have seen before Your patients your community. The people you know probably friends of yours coming into the hospital With with moderate and very severe disease and some of them are dying in fact many of dying. That's a really frightening scenario to be in the middle of And I think undoubtedly you could look back a now we can say you know maybe the authorities in China could have handled it better. It's always true when you look back. I think time though is really to look forward and think what's happening in China. What can we learn from that? In North America Europe Africa Africa is real concern for me just because of the okay okay systems and it's going on let me ask you because I I clearly WanNa ask you about Africa because that is a big concern as you've just said but in terms of we need to all look up to the future and now get try to get in front of this spread. How can you actually all the data and the rates of infection? How does one actually you know? Get a handle on it. What what do you need to know in order to be able to get a handle on it? Yeah well we do know a lot more than we did. Two weeks ago We a lot more than we did. A month ago. and and that information is not encouraging in some ways The things you need to know No particular order you need to know how infectious this is an who is passing it from one person to another is it. Children Is it the elderly. Is it people in schools and workplaces How long are they infectious for? Am I if I was to catch this today Would I be infectious tomorrow morning. Would it it being five days time and would I be infectious for another week or ten days. That's really critical information to know We need to know if I were infected today. How many people that I met? Would I give it to is one. Is it two. Is it four Because that tells us a lot about way the way. The epidemic is spreading on the clinical side Is it a symptomatic in some people will some people being infected and have absolutely no symptoms. And if they do will they be infectious during that time. And then those who have symptoms. What symptoms do they have? Is it different to influencers or does it look very similar Is it a sore throat. A headache muscle pains cough And if so which patients will go on to develop more severe disease and what can we do to treat those with sedate disease to try and reduce the number of people that are dying. Do you have any do you have any I do. I do. WH happens in these scenarios. Is you start to get a picture of what's happening and and you have to make decisions big public health decisions. Big Clinical decisions based on relative uncertainty as the weeks. Go on this week competitive last week competitor a month ago we're starting to get a picture so For instance the figure that I mentioned if I had a Curve today how many people would I give it to. I think increasingly. We think that's about between two two and a half three people Let's say it's three We think the infectious period probably lasts between Two and maybe maybe up to ten maybe nine or ten days that's really critical information really important And this may be a clinical bias. That we they haven't been reporting it. they've not been picked up but we've not seen many children We've seen many people under the age of twenty. That's a really important finding and then the finding in this week which is completely unexpected at least to me That we had a child born and within thirty hours was known to be infected. When did that child get infected? When did that baby we get infected? Was it during birth or was earlier prior to birth and again As we learn over the impact on your station and pregnant women is a really important question which we don't have answers today but we all getting some ounces. We we know more or less more about the severity we know more about the infectious period. And we do have a better handle on this famous figure on North. Which is the number of people that I would posit to if I was infected today? What you've just said I think you said let's say it's three right? That are not figure for the sake of argument to two and a half to three but look the. Who itself has said today. We need to bring this virus out into the light so we can attack it properly. So you're saying that we have some more information they're saying we need even more information and you just mentioned Africa. I want to ask ask you how Africa what you expect might happen there and how it might do with it. I mean we're hearing here even in the United States reporters if you look at the newspapers talking about people who are coming back from China you know. Some of them are coming to prescribed airports but then a lot of them are on their own. Some of them are going to military bases to be quarantined. A A lot of them are just being told. Go home. Quarantine yourself if that's happening here in the most developed health system in the world what happens in what you right. They say you know a a place at risk with a not so developed public health system like in Africa. What are the particular challenges there well over the last twenty twenty odd years? There's been a dramatic increase in the in the trade and travel routes between Asia. Not Not just China but actually the across the whole region and and Africa and And that therefore opposes a huge risk. That wasn't Maybe ten or twenty years ago just because of the connectivity now between Asia and an Africa we've done some lovely mapping along with colleagues in the UK and the US just looking at where the cities are most connected to to China and and also to Asia and that's essentially. It's the airport hubs. It's the airport hubs of the Middle East. Since the airport hubs of Kenya of Ethiopia of Nigeria South Africa. It's those cities which most connected by travel to to China. But you're absolutely right. The healthcare systems in many parts of sub Sarah Erica. It's not just sub Saharan Africa. It's also true. In Central and South America Venezuela for instance is really going through a crisis in terms of healthcare at the moment and the implications. John's of this if it were to arrive in Venezuela would-be devastating. I would say though and this is really important. The the the changes in Africa in the the last five years the the setting up Which China has played a critical role in the setting up of the Africa Centre? Disease Control very much modeled in some ways on the the fantastic American. CDC Is there in a way that was just not structure that five years ago and and also in Nigeria. Just call out Dr Chikweya in Nigerian Nigerian. CDC just you know that sort of leadership perhaps was not so evident five years ago and it certainly there today. But you're absolutely right. They're very fragile. Health Systems Diaz has not got rid of evola yet there's malaria of course in Tibet closys and HIV. And we we have no idea how this virus will will go and people who are. HIV positive suggest quickly. What about the idea of a vaccine again seems to be confusion in the public space over that yesterday we reported what seemed to be a break through the British doctor medical research? Such an imperial college had figured out a way to shorten the time to From a couple of years to fourteen days to get a vaccine. Now we're hearing that maybe that's not correct and that it might take even longer. What do you know about this story? And of course that puts more panic in the population as well. Yeah no you're right and I know I know Robin Shostak very well. At imperial is a superb Fact sinologist but I but I think it would be the first to say this is. It's really according to be really clear about about this. We can we can shorten the time vaccine development. We believe but we can't show nick completely. I believe we will if we will be in in phase one trials. That's the first time it goes into managing Through the National Institutes of Health States and here in the UK We will be there in human trials. I believe even March or beginning of April. But that's the first step that's the step to show that it's safe. And it produces an immune response which we hope will protect people about corona virus. We then then have to go through large-scale trials and then have to manufacture it and we don't just have to manufacture it for America or Europe. We have to manufacture for Africa as well and realistically. That's not until the the end of the year into next year if everything goes well and just remind people we don't have a vaccine for a related virus called the common cold so this isn't trivial to do next year. We may have a vaccine public health purposes. I doubt if we'll have on this year. New is very very good to be clear about this in the complexities of it. I just wanted to ask you to collaborate on the sort of knock on effects we know there are. Thousands of patients being quarantined in ships. That too that too Cruise ships off Japan and in Hong Kong. Stay in their room food being brought to them. Sometimes you know it's late and all the rest of it a lot of hardship but even more more more sort of emergency urgency level in Wuhan in the areas around there in China near Wuhan. There's this really heart rending testimony from a lady who can't get get her her daughter to to to take leukemia Treatment she's standing at a checkpoint and barring any movement because of the corona virus virus and yet the other disease cont treated either he had just taken listen. I'm obviously very upset. Because you're examining and treating patients with corona virus but our illness also needs to be examined by Dr Right now as a special time. The small hospitals in our area can't treat her. We just want to go auto big hospital to get her seen by a doctor. I mean as you said Jeremy the the the level of chaos and fear and panic on this level and all these other major diseases. It must be just terrible in the hot zone. It is an I mean that's how heart wrenching to to so listen to that and I think that really brings it home. What this means What a lockdown of a city really means it is about corona virus but it's also about those people blur needing care it's about safe childbirth? It's about people being treated for cancer. As as that Lady's mother was and this puts enormous strains on healthcare systems and and and you know China is actually pretty well developed in its healthcare system. The truth is I think every country would would be really challenged with dealing with anything anything on the scale. We're singing in Wuhan. Africa of course may be disproportionate affected and we must not leave them behind. As I say this is a time for solidarity but the truth is this western Europe Japan. North America and Canada United States All of the countries will will really struggle Particularly if this comes in in the northern hemisphere during the influences when when hospitals are under such additional pressure there isn't very much surge capacity in any country in the world even the most has developed And the critical things we need to do now. Whilst North America Europe Africa is not yet gone. Like China We hope we can avoid that. The decisions we're making. Today we hope will mitigate the worst of this epidemic. But we've got to put in place those plans. We don't need to panic. There's no panic achieves nothing. There's no need to scare people but we do quietly needs put in place the surge capacity in the United States in Europe in Africa and Australia and around the world that we might have to us and we just have to accept if we make the right decisions and prevent this epidemic taking off. They may not be used but there are absolutely critical to plan for today. Same with the vaccine. We may not have a vaccine for year. But it'll be a a year or more from whenever we start and we've got to start that today and the world's gotta come together as it has done and make sure we put all the resources. Money cannot be a limiting factor here. And we've got gotta get this done and we've got to do the planning of the health system to think through the consequences of facing a headlight system like event in New York or London or Paris Oberlin. Well I hope I hope the experts listening to that warning and to that advice suggests Sarah thank you very much. Indeed from the wellcome trust for joining us ever been knocked down. You know suffered a setback. Fired left out it happens. It happens a Mike. Bloomberg middle-class ask kid worked. His Way through college job started a family. Boom fired at thirty nine. Would it. Mike do for a lot of us. Do we got backup dove back back in. 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L. and now we turn to another story with major political ramifications here in the United States. And that is fracking. It is the controversial technique for extracting trapped oil the natural gas and it's a divisive issue in the Democratic presidential campaign. Well Joe Biden and other moderate candidates support a gradual transition away from fracking Senator Bernie Sanders and Warren Call for banning the practice outright in two thousand and twelve. I was very proud that my state of Vermont became became the first state in the nation to ban fracking. Last year Maryland Roland imposed a moratorium on fracking until two thousand seventeen and cities and towns across the nation are doing the same progress is being made but much more needs to be done. I don't have to explain to anyone here that the growing body of evidence tells us that fracking is a danger to our water supply our most precious the resources. It is a danger to the air we leave and can cause lung cancer. It has resulted in more war earthquakes. It is highly explosive and it is contributing to climate change according to a study in key twenty twenty anti swing states like Ohio and Pennsylvania hundreds of thousands of workers rely on fracking for their paychecks. So joining me now to two Pennsylvanians in the crosshairs of this debate John Fetterman is the lieutenant governor that as mayor of Braddock Pennsylvania. He earned a national reputation for the fighting to reverse the economic decline in his town and leave and horn comes from the heart of Pennsylvania's coal mining country. And he's now a manager at Avin grid renewables a leading wind power provider. Gentlemen thank you very much indeed for joining me so let us take. Let us take this issue fronton Senate because we've just had the Iowa Caucus We know kind of WHO's at this point at the top of this pile and what is going to mean for for the nation for the climate and for politics. I'm Lieutenant Governor. You have been very clear about what needs to happen. Just give me your sense of the political nature of the debate and you've just heard president trump obviously as we played at the state of the Union talk about. We are going to be Self self-sufficient sure well. I fundamentally believe This about American politics I think Republicans need to become honest About climate and I think Democrats have to get real about energy In in this country and I think the intersection of both of those truths Right here is in Pennsylvania and I think the most successful approaches one that has been implemented by Governor Tom Wolfe to combat the the the idea that we really do and must act on climate but we also have to realize that we have energy needs there are employment considerations and and we must do it in a way that honors the environment but also protects and safeguards the jobs of the Union men and women who depend on these industries for employment Soon attendant governor. You're a democrat. I omitted to mention that He won the mayor's office there by one vote. I think if if I'm not correct if I'm not mistaken and you've been very you know you you entwined with this whole debate so just tell me your story a little bit about about how you come to this issue. Because how do you balance. What many believe is the existential issue of our time? Climate absolutely and uh-huh existential issue of jobs. Sure well background my family and I my wife and I are three. Children live directly across the street from one of the largest industrial facilities certainly in Pennsylvania. It's not in the country as the the Thompson. Steel Plant and politically As well as morally I believe in the union way of life and the fact that we in this country needs to make things and we in this country need to do it simultaneously why honoring the environment environment the. US steel is looking to reinvest one and a half billion dollars in the steel mill across the street to produce the world's greenest steel which I support And we have to make sure that politically as well as morally and ethically we take care of and preserve and defend the union way of life if here and not only in Pennsylvania but nationally as our Party and Two things can be true at the same time you can as I do admire fire and listen to people like the sunrise movement but and I also admire and defend the right of the Steel Workers Union and other union trades to be able to practice what they do and how they provide for their families as well. We can't all work for Google. You know we have a to be able to produce steel we have to be able to Deliver the energy needs as we transition over towards more renewables else which I think we can. All agree is is a good policy but the moving parts of of that debate are right here in Pennsylvania and I think We need to make sure that we always at first for as far as our party. Go defend the union way of life and make sure that we we Keep and protect these industries that allow a lot of thousands of families to earn a living. Okay let me move over to leave an hone on them because you also a Pennsylvania resident you I think our northern Pennsylvania and I believe your parents your father was in the the mining industry and yet you have moved away from that into renewables. Give us a sense. And you heard what the government says about how it's fundamental to people's Livelihood Hood Fossil Fuels fracking. And other such thing. And why you have moved away from your family business. If you like into renewables well I mean I grew up in Nicole regions You know right in the heart of the anthracite region When I was young you know why was exposed to it constantly You know I played around kneeled codebreakers and Cory's Even though they weren't in their heyday They were still you know still some of them were still functional. My grade school was across from the the Saint Nicholas spreaker which in its heyday was the largest producing coal breaker in the world. Actually and I You know when I was growing up my father he worked in the coal mines When he was very young? And then eventually you know during the sixties Cole was starting to phase out at that time slowly holy He went into manufacturing and You know my goals when I was young to be was I wanted to be a diesel mechanic mechanic. Actually and I expect it because of the amount of Industri- industry and coal in their area. You know that was going to be my destiny However you know my goals in middle school even was I wanted like I was so set on being a diesel mechanic? But my father you know swayed me against it He really wanted me to get into electronics So I ended up going to a vocational school. You know got my three year certificate for Electronics. onyx I pursued my education at Penn State got an engineering degree And I ended up working for the semiconductor business A company they call Western electric which was the manufacturing arm of the bell system I had a very rewarding career there. but twenty plus years into it. You know when I got that job I thought it was set for life. That was one of the best companies to work for and I thought I was going to be. You know Mike Pence it should be set and everything. But they closed up the moved overseas and Lo and behold I was out of a job and that's when I eventually moved into the renewable energy business. which was they? Were building a wind farm right near me so I ended up working for good renewables. Well you've kind of made a case. He's and very eloquent. Case for how a family a people a town maybe a state and a nation kind of moves with the times and with the demands and with the economy And with an in a in a way a little bit with politics and numbers and I want to read you these numbers because I think they're really important as as you heard the president in the in the state of the union said even more jobs will be had in the fossil fuel industry but certainly Pennsylvania boasts more than nine hundred thousand jobs in wind solar energy efficiency and other clean technologies by contrast about twenty thousand. Some people are employed directly in oil and gas jobs. That's according to two thousand sixteen figures from Your Department of Labor and Industry That I think is an amazingly important story just from your perspective since you've made this move and many fossil fuel families in your allstate or in the same way. Youngest young people need to make different ways in life. Can you say look. We're all part of the energy family. We're just moving into different ways of energy. Does this story need to have to be told differently. I mean yes I you know. Just like the semiconductor industry tree It's not the same as it was in the eighties in the United States that moved overseas. And we we transgressed into other careers. I think You know renewable energy as an extremely bright future in our county where I live Skoko county you know the Wind Energy and coal Cole is as coexisting I think if you look at them on a curve you know maybe we're in area where we're intersecting so oh renewable energy jobs are going to go up and fossil fuel jobs are going to slowly go down But at this point in time we are co-existing but I think for future careers. I think people need to start looking at the renewable energy. I think it'll be a better place for okay. Our Future for our children and grandchildren so back to you. Lieutenant Governor Given the importance of your state to to the presidency and to these economic and energy You know realities. Are you ready off to Iowa to endorse anybody I am ready to endorse. I'm here to endorse our eventual nominee. And there isn't anything that I won't do to get him or her elected because because I would want to remind everybody that we have to unify our Party and make sure Donald Trump is a one term president. It's just that simple and you know when you have these kind of conversations. It's important to remember that they're they're complicated. And two things can and often are are true at the same time. And with respect fracking. I WANNA point out. I've never taken a dime from the industry. Never have never will the the decisions and the the opinions I have ever coming from. I believe are an informed place here on the ground in Pennsylvania and then I believe that our Party needs to honor the union way of life and safeguard these these jobs and acknowledged that we must trans Begin the trans- For Hoover to renewables as well okay so let me just say because because you know again people in your party look by and they see Hillary Clinton having lost you know of a very important state by by not that much and I wonder whether this soundbite of hers back in March of Two thousand sixteen in full campaign swing in Ohio. Also a very important state about coal miners and Co workers. This is what she said. and I wonder if you think it's a cautionary tale given what you're telling me. I'm the only candidate which has a policy about how bring economic opportunity using clean renewable energy as the key into cold country. Because we're going to put a lot of coal miners and coal companies. He's out of business right. Tim and we're going to make it clear that we don't want to forget those people so she did say we don't want to forget. Get those people. And then she went on to say how the economy has to you know make good for them and be and they'd be retrained but is that kind of what you're saying that a current candidate cannot say that and expect to win Pennsylvania. Well secretary where it's Clinton's words were taken out of context my concerns about a day one fracking ban if that was Z.. Even possible to implement is is that it doesn't fully capture how closely tied the economies are here in Pennsylvania and and you know Pennsylvania. I believe is a margin play and banning fracking on day. One in my opinion isn't a margin play policy and I I feel that again. We can you know do as as our governor has done. Governor Wolford's done is realized that we can work on these two two issues at the same time we can have. This industry function in. Pennsylvania provide thousands of jobs but we can also incentivize and know that we are transitioning Over to clean energy because no one on our party at this point argues the real threat that climate change poses to our world. So let me ask you on the economic level and. I wonder if it's a story that that that you lieutenant governor or the governor or the Democratic candidates can tell the economic story because let's face visit fracking is not a great economic story his fingers it's incredibly capital intensive You know companies are still trying to prove that they can actually make money money because now they are not turning huge profits. Many companies rely heavily on Wall Street's willingness to continue to find them from them and in fact one of the hedge fund managers puts it this way. The industry has a very bad history of money going into it and never coming out of it That must be important for somebody in your state. And is that an economic argument you can use as you make a transition eventually to tell people you know and the president is making the opposite argument eh sheets. It's great for money and for you know for jobs and all the rest of it well it again. It's it's a complicated argument and the but the the reality is is that Pennsylvania. I believe Pennsylvania's going to pick the next president and I believe in an election results recently in two thousand nineteen bear that out and and I believe Banning an industry overnight on day. One of the office. I doesn't isn't compatible necessarily with that spirit and I say that as a progressive recipe and I say that as someone who's never taken a dime from the industry and would never do so. I I think you lose the importance of the the the industry in a state like Pennsylvania. And what that allows president trump to do in weaponized that and to create an environment. Where a lot of these industries trees? It's not just fracking. Feel that these workers have no alternative other than to go in the direction that maybe they don't even necessarily want to but you know we as Democrats win election soundly the way the governor and I did in two thousand eighteen by embracing and protecting and advancing the union way of Life Ah honoring organized Labor in Pennsylvania. And because we have to remember. We all can't work at Google or any of these other high tech jobs you. There has to be production and manufacturing and energy and in my state Red County Pennsylvania powers and feeds Blue Blue County Pennsylvania and there's an interdependence and the argument that we have that's being made divides us when we as a party and need to unite behind our eventual nominee. And make sure Donald Trump is a one term president because I fundamentally believe that Pennsylvania's going to be a margin play and without Pennsylvania so Vania in president trump's corner. I don't believe he has a realistic plausible path. To two seventy. It is absolutely fascinating. Thank you so much for joining me. Lieutenant Governor Federal and and also leave and horn manager Avin grid renewables. Thank you both very much. Thank you thank you. For many years now Yuba has changed the way many of us live not just in the United States but also around the world and the way we socialize and work but the company has faced a series of scandals from safety complaints to to the ousting of its first CEO and few know it better than Mike is it. The New York Times Tech reporter has been covering the ride hailing company for years his first book super pumped the battle. FUCA presented the dramatic rise and fall of a stop that came to symbolize everything wrong with silicon valley now while the currency CEO has enacted wide reforms in the company. Is it tells a hurry strain of us. How Uber should be a cautionary tale for corporate greed and the limits of the GIG economy? You covered uber for a long time. What is significant about Uber? What did they figure out? I think it was something something about a you know if you can remember back in two thousand nine two thousand ten it was this moment where smartphones were just starting to become you know a device a computer in everyone's pocket wireless and you know high speed. Connectivity was becoming more common in different cities and the idea that you can you know it seems crazy. In retrospect now that you can call a car from your phone is was pretty revolutionary right. Then it gave people the idea that maybe the power of the Internet and the power of the smartphone can can be much larger than just texting or messaging with your friends or logging onto facebook and sharing photos as you report out. They weren't the only ones that were trying to think about rethinking transportation right. They weren't the first one. So how did they succeed. How did they get so big so fast? I think in the valley in Silicon Valley. It's not about being the first. It's about being the best or executing the best you know so you know facebook. It was not the first social network to be there. There was friendster is in my space of the world. It's just about making the right moves to secure your dominance as a company and I I think for Uber. It was about being really basically really cutthroat from the very beginning you know Travis. Kalanick's was the CEO of the company for nine nine or so years and his whole philosophy. was you know. Don't take no don't even don't ask for a don't ask permission. Ask forgiveness really right. Just go into cities and really. Don't even ask forgiveness just barge into cities if you can remember at the time ridesharing had no regulatory framework around it and weather city governments. Want us there or not. We're going to operate and normal people who uses APP. Once we put it in their hands will get the magic of of it and be be enthralled enough to want us there and you know for most for most for all intensive purposes at actually worked for at least a significant period of time so they would just barrel into the city's not ask permission and then what happens they could find from the city but by that time there's already a bunch of users there's and much of money I mean you know. Talk About Uber. Going into hundreds of cities around the United States this point cities barely have have the ability to enforce parking or or different sorts of of rules around their local government. Much less catch. You know a bunch of different people driving different cars around the city. There was no real enforcement around it so in cities like. Let's say Portland. They would try to do these stings and maybe pull over drivers drivers by catching the cars but every time it was kind of like an arms race every time the regulators tried to catch Uber Uber tried to outsmart the regulars regulators by I using some different form of technology to do that and I think the the where it got tricky and ultimately. What would be Uber's undoing doing was how far should you go when you're pressing when you're bending those rules and ultimately are you getting to a point where you're maybe breaking the law are going going beyond what you you should be doing? How much of this was travis? Impact on the company his fingerprint on the corporate culture. I mean look I think in Silicon Valley. It's it's always about move fast break things it's always about you have to sort of you know. Incumbent companies are not going to just hand over there territory to you right you have to sort of press and and be willing to to push it so I think that ethos Israeli instilled in a lot of young tech founders. That said Travis was one of these people who you had to win right like he had to go to all lengths to to essentially dominate the industry and it wasn't going to be uber versus lift or Uber. ooh lifted an UBER IN D in China or Uber and Ola in India. Who's just going to be owns the world? Because that's how travis sort of how to operate and I think that win at all costs mentality ultimately just trickled down to the entire company and I think really for every founder founder of a company that. Da is key it kind of sets the tone from the top down on how companies supposed to operate and you could argued for awhile. It really worked for Uber. Like pushing into a lot of these cities without taking no for answer did make them sort of become ubiquitous until it didn't until will employees would do things that eventually caused them. Scrutiny by the Department of Justice that that that that may have gone too far so what happened to the early investors the board why were they not able to rein in this culture. I think this is the power dynamic that has always been a push and pull in Silicon Valley right in in early days in in the time of the. This is Mark Zuckerberg or Larry Page and Sergei Brand Google the idea that the founder as the sort of God head cult-like figur- your person who can come in and have a real vision was really popular is right. I think Steve Jobs was really kind of one of the pioneers of of that idea. Like you have this person who has a vision and the board of directors shouldn't be too meddlesome because you don't WanNa mess up a good thing essentially and and I really think Zuckerberg and page and brin made that even more popular over time and over time as a VC venture cappos wanted to invest in companies. They would essentially give more power to founders of these companies. And in the case of. Let's say in the best case scenario you let's say Zuckerberg pre twenty sixteen. You build a billion multi billion dollar company. That's doing really well. And in the worst case scenario of let's say a Travis County or Uber you have a founder who amid multiple scandals amid reckless behavior internally and multiple federal investigations. You're not able to remove that founder removed CEO because ultimately they ceded a lot of the power over over to him in in the way the corporate structure worked. So how did that perfect storm happened. I mean it kind of seemed to be post. The trump presidency beginning beginning. There seemed to be a focus on inequality and worker rights. There seems to be also the rise of the METOO movement as right. So what were the factors that actually we made these big struggles tuber significant enough where he had to leave. He had to be ousted. I it was perfect. Storm is exact right word. I think If you remember back in Pre Twentieth Sixteen Tech did not really have the level of scrutiny. That it does right now you know so yeah exactly right it was. It was founders on the cover of magazines and they were sort of an idealized version of what it meant to go into tech and facebook was on the list of top ten companies to work for years on end and then post really post trump's election. We started see questions about how tech work right Maybe a Russian influence campaigns are putting disinformation inside of facebook. And we aren't really aware of it or maybe we shouldn't be creating these models of of hybrid work that have eroded worker protections over over a long period of time or maybe women are being badly mistreated in these companies and not really having any voice to say and so I think at this one moment and beginning this was sort of like the seeds of rumblings rumblings of early metoo that would come later in two thousand seventeen at this moment. I think Uber became really the poster child for how bad tech bad behavior in tech can be right. It was and a lot of different scandals came out for the company. At once. If you remember Susan Fowler an employee at the company when he published this link the blog post that said essentially she had suffered really bad mistreatment and sexual harassment at the hands of her managers is Sorta so does she got there and and I think that broke the dam open for for a lot of different scandals to come out given all of the bad behavior. That's been documented mended about Travis through the investigations. I mean there was basically a sort of very high level investigation. That kind of went into this here. He is now no longer with the company. Incredibly wealthy at all of the early founders and employees of Uber who might have been part of the problem problem. What was the consequence right? This is the the you know. The outcome at the end of the book were sort of left with. What are we learning here right or we we did they get their travis sort of learned from this entire thing is he gonNA be a changed? Man Did the employees sort of feel chastened and decide to turn over a new leaf or travis is a billionaire three times over at this point a lot of the he's working on a new startup he's still in good company he's still goes to the met gala here and invests alongside of blue chip venture capital firms. I believe he's hired a number of the employees who are who were were pushed out guber for bad behavior for his new company right so I'm not sure how much she has learned except maybe to keep his profile much lower. We're at this new startup that he was working on. Just to sort of keep cover from from a press scrutiny. But I don't know you know I wonder I do wonder if it's a sea change in the valley right now I talked to a lot of younger tech founders. Who essentially say look? I don't want to build the same company that Uber built. I want to I want to build. I want you think about culture and ethics in the company from much earlier on just so when we if we're lucky enough to get big we don't have to worry about similar problems. So maybe there is a lesson learned so the new CEO on this program said that Uber's business model is sustainable. Is it dark houser Shahi former. CEO of Expedia Uber's new CEO. Joe His thesis is that ultimately. We're going to get to a point of costs sort of stabilizing in coming down and we'll start to turn a profit in more markets because we don't have to subsidize rides fighting against different competitors in every country. The problem with that is they're pushing headlong into the food delivery business right now. which is I I would say? It's where ridesharing was five or six years ago. It's very expensive. There's a lot of people competing and companies that are willing to lose lose money on every every delivery essentially in order to gain market share. So it keeps kind of kicking the can down the road on wind profitability is going to come and you know he can say that they have a path to profitability. And they're saying I think twenty twenty one is when they're aiming to become profitable but it's hard because they're still trying to grow and they're losing money on all the businesses that they're breaking into so I'm I will wait to see it to believe it. How dealing with the drivers and the and the pushback they've been receiving for them for so long and one one of the things that happened very quickly was the ability to add tips right? That was something that drivers wanted. But what else are they doing to try to keep drivers happy because whether their employees are not. If you don't don't have drivers you don't have a service totally I think. One of the biggest oversights or liabilities really of Travis's era essentially was seeing drivers as disposable consensually. If don't drivers well if we don't really care about yanking around their pay all the time and talking about some of their concerns than we can always is get new ones quickly. The Uber Realized Dara has sort of made it a priority to change the relationship drivers over time you've started to offer them some unlimited of advice on how to handle tax preparation or at least giving them different advisors there or sending them to medical medical benefits plans that they can go find on their own. It's a real difficulty because if they help them too much it's almost as they are treating them like employees which again they don't want to do but if they don't help them enough then the drivers are GonNa get upset and say. Hey you're mistreating us so they're trying. They're they're doing this program of change and we value our drivers but it's always going to be tense because they only can value them. You know so much. What about the concerns of passengers have had over ride safety? I the ninety nine point nine percent of these ridesharing apps and the rides at happen are fine and they're safe but even just given the volume even if it's that point one percent that's a lot of rides a lot of bad experiences We've had reports of sexual assault and rape In Uber Vehicles Goals by drivers. What's the company doing? But I think you nailed it on on the scale idea right not just do but any of these companies if you're doing doing let's say millions of rides a day or for facebook billions of pieces of content today or whatever even just a fraction of that is is a a lot of people. It affects a lot of people right so I think something companies will never say is that you can never fully get rid of rid of this. Because that's just how the world works. But what they do is they try to minimize as much as possible in. So Uber has come out to their credit. Have come out. With a number of different safety mechanisms that never existed assisted in the APP for very long time. There's ways to send your location to people so they know where you're going on the way to your ride. There's an essentially panic antic button. That can call nine one one if you feel unsafe for dangerous or or you go off in a different direction. There's a way to for the company to detect if the drivers going off route for a period of extended period of time which might mean some irregular activities. So they built in some more mechanisms and they're putting more people on the safety team so I will give him credit for that but I mean any any anyone who operates a company that served bit literal billions of people recognizes that you can never get something one hundred percent safe. Does the GIG economy work. I mean because there is now an Uber for everything right you can and get your tasks done you can get lots of different services where contractors come in and fill the gap what is the ripple effect on our economy. If that is a legitimate avenue for people to go find employment. I think there's a few things going on. I think one you you know. In the wake of Uber. There was essentially an uber for everything after after that and it with any sort of wave of startups I think a lot will fail a lot or kind of destined the failed just because the business model doesn't work for everything it's not infinitely repeatable so I think that wave is starting to hit some walls. You're starting to see task. Grab it was bought by Kia because it might not have been enough of a standalone business. But I think the ones that do make it it really does change how we think about work and employment. It's an how people kind of existence cities I'm thinking about. All the delivery food delivery companies. Now that has an effect on local business. It has an effect on retail restaurants where people might not be walking in and coming off the street anymore just because they can sit at home and watch Netflix over their delivery that they just got for for for less than the actual cost because the food delivery companies are trying to win and give you cheaper meals so there are really different effects that this has or Amazon is on which is essentially replaced malls at this point and indefinitely had an effect on retail. So I think it changes. What Main Street looks like it? Changes how we get services and how how we think about these services should work but I do think I do think we should recognize the costs in that and see who affects and in the case was taxi drivers in the in case of Amazon. It's retailers and shops. In the case of food delivery its its littoral restaurants that upheaval as a cost and I think people can at least recognize that the through line between all three of those types of examples that you just gave is that we end up valuing our convenience more than thinking about what those ripple effects are if the people that are working in the restaurant go away if the people that are working in the malls go away if the people that are working in taxis go away. Yes I think it really abstracts. It's kind of like climate changing away right the like the. The big pictures really abstracted from the immediate effects of this one thing. That's right in front of you at the moment. Like maybe Amazon is very bad for the environment in the way that they can ship thousands millions of cardboard packages every day. But all I know is that I WANNA get my paper towels toilet paper with it within eighteen hours if I press one button right and you. It's almost like the system is built to abstract the cost of what you're doing because it's so much larger under and so I don't want to be too cynical because I do think we're in a moment. Now where people are starting to think more about these effects and and what they can do individually to change them but it's it's hard when when all you have to do is press a button and it's much more convenient than it's ever been before Mike. Isaac thanks much. Yeah thanks for having me and finally remember a towering icon of American cinema and one of the last living actors of Hollywood's Golden Age Kirk. Douglas passed away on Wednesday at the age of one hundred three throughout his career. Hit Start in beloved epics spots and the bad and the beautiful. A few years ago I spoke to his son the actor and producer Michael Douglas and he told me how his father's breakout role as a box. I am the champion showcased. His trademark intensity and the champion. He played a heavyweight. Fighter follows way to the top. And I think that's we're that that chopping sort of true he's chopping down his back. Molars and fighting through scenario kind of began and that was the personification of inner rage that to explode and was very very powerful on screen a and used it very well scary as a kid. Yeah yeah sure. He had he had a lot of never been quite sure where I come. I'm from. I've talked to him a little bit. You know he's the white Russian I think he was probably perceived as not being Jewish. I think he probably saw a lot of Anti Semitism In his lifetime people not acknowledging or thinking the actually was Jewish but he it was that same energy Asia incredible stamina that tenacity that sets a struggle. It served him very well where they probably don't know about it is as much as is his humanitarian efforts that he's made in his life and his his beliefs in tickle Newmann or trying to repair the world a better place and through a year of of acquiring a large fortune. He's now basically giving it all away to charity charity into other. He's overcome all sorts of strokes in helicopter. Crashes and all of that so kirk. Douglas was the child of Russian John. Jews who left Belarus to find a better life in the United States. And he used that impetus to become Hollywood's biggest and brightest star. That isn't for now. Oh you can always catch us online on our podcast and across social media. Thank you for watching and goodbye from New York.