Bruce Craven, Leadership Secrets from Game of Thrones - InnovaBuzz 414

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Welcome to the another bus. Podcast l. job is to help you. Visibility professional credibility and conviction with your ideal client accordingly human at the center of innovative marketing. So you can build and strengthen and engaging enduring relationship with your ideal clients on european strengths from an overpass and honored that. You're here with me if you haven't joined our wonderful marketing transformation community yet go to knows abysmal c. And collect your free gift as well. Do subscribe to the show and also leave a review. Because it helps abbas fondness. Let's get into today's masterclass on this podcast bar. Values can be very helpful in guiding us about important since at the same time. I think we have to be careful that we don't jump to our values in volatile environments and assume other people share our values net assumed that king robert would appreciate his honesty when he argued with him in front of the small council about assassinating the young pregnant woman. That's not what happened so we need to understand. Our values recognize the importance of them and finding alignment work. Do we also need to be careful that we don't assume everyone around us has the same values who welcome back. I hope you've had an awesome weeks of If you haven't yet listen to my recent conversations with iman zombie founder of terrain dot. I o. and brian burkhart founder. And chief word guy of square planet then do get. Check them out but only after you've listened to today's conversation of course. I'm really excited to have on the another bus. Podcast is my guest today. Bruce craven a writer public speaker and educator with over thirty years of experience in executive education. He's i partner at craven leadership and an associate adjunct professor at the columbia business school where he teaches his popular. Nba nba elective leadership through fiction. His leadership book win or die leadership. Secrets from game of thrones was published in two thousand and nineteen. He has also written a poetry collection when sweaty in red glitter and his new novel. Sweet bride will be published in two thousand and twenty one in our discussion today. Bruce talked to me about what lessons. They are in fictional stories for leadership. We talked about the importance of empathy in leadership. And we talked about how al values affect ellie ship and how to lease it l. values without further ado. Let's fly into the hive. And get the buzz. From bruce craven. Hi i'm your host. Eric strauss from his and i'm really excited today to welcome to the another bus podcast. All the way from desert hot springs which is in california the usa. Bruce craven who is an adjunct associate professor at columbia business school. He's the hype partner at craven leadership as well as author of the book win or die leadership secrets. From the game of thrones. Welcome to the bus. Podcast bruce. it's a real privilege heavy. Here is my guest saggier. That was a wonderful introduction. And i'm really pleased and excited to be with you. It's a hot day outside out here in southern california but a beautiful day and this is just an exciting moment for me. So thanks you. I'm really touted to dig into this diner. Bob cool han. Who was a guest on it. Trae hundred and sixty six of the podcast suggested that we have a conversation with you. Bruce in introduced the subject to both absolutely in bob. I'll just take a quick aside for those who haven't heard talk yet but bots a very inspiring guy. We've had him participate in worked out of the columbia business school. I've hired him to do other teaching projects. He's a very talented leader. Very inspirational guy improv. Person who's trained in creative arts of improv. And i would encourage everyone to check out his your talk with him. Yes yeah episode. Three hundred and sixty six. That wasn't we had a lotta fun on. That looks of improv. Happening there as well for right now. I have to be upfront here and say i'm not a game of thrones fans fan in fact i haven't even watched a single episode but by my take on it from being some of your book is that essentially there's a king who sits on the throne who gets assassinated without having a leadership succession plan in place and so all the candidates for that leadership succession condom manipulate and an engineer to near their white onto that run. And and that's kind of probably doing the show a tuttle justice. Believe there's about ten series but that was actually very elegant on target. It takes place in this mythical time. It's an epic fantasy written by george. R martin on the books are incredible and their dance and they're thick and it's a history that's of course fictional but is really consumes you holes readers in and then of course when they adapted to a show they delays job. Hbo and when this current narrative starts. You're right there's a man named king robert and he took the throne in what was called robert's rebellion and he's traveled to the north to persuade a former brother in arms to come down and be his right hand. Man what they call the hand of the king and so this man up in the north decides with his wife and make the decision that he will leave his responsible north and go to where the iron throne is capital city of landing so be the equivalent of traveling saying the united states to washington. Dc and this man. Ned stark is heroic. He's proven himself in battle. He's a good leader in the environment that he's from but he's not particularly well adapted for the challenges he's facing leadership when he gets to this capital city and part of that is what you're referring to The king while very powerful and brave a great warrior has a lot of personal flaws and there are people around him maneuvering against his good fortune right and so our man from the north named ned. Stark is into that very volatile dangerous environment. Which you know my my question for you to stop conversational really's headed this whole idea because when you put it like that it's like you know you can see the parallels very clearly with with a business leadership role where somebody is cheers. The latest shape bringing their the trusted allies to lift tenants site. Quick them into leadership roles perhaps thin well prepared for and then of course things happened. Had this idea that fictional narratives and fictional characters could form that vices Listen stop with you yeah I've worked at columbia business school since almost getting straight out of graduate school where i studied poetry of a master of fine arts and poetry and i was working to write a novel. This was in one time ago in the late eighties early nineties. I started working in executive education. Which is a division of the business school harshly just out of an e for job and partially because i suddenly realized how exciting it was so jump cut about twelve years later and i'd had one novel pablo's that had a film made and i've written a written a business case with a columbia professor great colleague mining hall ingram and in the right of that case i kept occurring in the there ought to be a way to fiction. You know this. This craft that professional writers devote their time to professional screenwriters and professional playwrights. Throttle away to bring that into teaching leadership and it wasn't that the idea kind of sprung full blown for my mind. I had seen a professor at columbia professors. You shakespeare capacity. I didn't know that there is a professor at harvard. Who was already starting to do that. So was unaware of at this idea. I pitched to the And he encouraged me actually the times about thirteen years ago so the previous scene i live in california and so the question was how was i going to actually make this happen teaching all the time in colombia every week when i lived in california and long story short of an opportunity came up. I seized it. I spent about two years flying back and forth every week. In addition to a lot of the other travel. I did And the ideas really took took cold. But i think what it was. Because the narratives to get back again thrones and shakespeare for that matter the narratives are so compelling and the stakes are so high that for the students is very engaging. I mean you go do your job in. It's competitive and someone you perceive of as being an ally may betray you but hopefully in your life. that doesn't mean you'll have your head cut off. Game of thrones. That could mean your head is cut off for your children are murdered. Or you know so the stakes are so high. It becomes a very compelling landscape to engage yourself with and your classes that that's fascinating and often i look at at some shows and i get prompted the look at a character or nothing. I wonder what what would have happened. Had i might add different decision. So that's kind of the questions that you're asking except in a much more structured as a. Yeah that's exactly it. So if you go back to this this leader in the north named ned stark. His official title is lord edward at. He's called informally ned. When he travels to king's landing the capital city. He he does a couple of things. He brings his daughters with him. Assuming that one of them might marry the king's son and that's a ill. Ill may decision He thinks his younger daughter. Who's kind of tomboyish will benefit and become more traditionally feminine. I guess in the capital city and she doesn't she because much more of a warrior and then he makes some other Bad decisions he trust the wrong people and he acts too aggressively in a way that he feels more right without being able to evaluate true kind of dangers of the environment. And by the way. When i when. I first watched the show. I completely identified with it. I think i would very likely have made the same decision. So it's not about judging the characters it's more about finding compelling characters and then extracting from them key ideas that you can use to remind yourself when you're in a similar dynamic. Maybe someone offered you job and you. You aren't sure you really wanna take it. you know. it's probably not perfect thing for you that you feel compelled you start thinking about a few lens of ned stark. You may decide that. That's an opportunity so wait on or you may decide. You're going to take it what you need to be far. More prevention minded against the risks that role with. Let's let's explore that character a little bit more. I guess because you've given us a bit little bit of a background and and a scenario in which he's found himself in in some of the decisions might and also pointed a little bit of a picture of the values the the hell. What are some of the lessons. We can take from that into a leadership role. So let's say his situation way. We've been offered this role that means traveling somewhere else. That means relocating. Sol's and then there's the question do we really kinda family order. We leave a family where they are and all s questions have come up. What some of the lessons that we learned from that that we can stop to assists how we how we might have the seasons here. Yeah so. I should preface this by saying i started. Using game of thrones in this elective. I teach at columbia business school to as two executive. Nba's and i teach components of senior executives too but I taught it for about three years before. I brought in gang throats and one of the interesting things that i really benefited from is that the students climbed business score exceptionally intelligent And so i was extracting a lot of great ideas from them as i was quote teaching a class so one thing that many of them were very quick to point out was how ned stark really didn't evaluate the environment. He really didn't sit back and try to recognize what his core strengths are. What job description was really requiring She didn't have clear communication with the king. Remember they were. They knew each other when they were much younger when they were warriors. There's sort of this collegial Friendship connor around being grubs an arms. But they don't actually. Ned doesn't actually push into civic on. What his job description is so they have all this goodwill and i'm sure a lot of your listeners. Self myself been in that kind of situation where you're going into a working relationship. You have a lot of goodwill with each other. You're not being the civic so at a certain moment going back to two gain thrones. The king is being encouraged. King robbers being courage to send an assassin to kill a young woman who's pregnant in the continent of esso's because is the daughter of the previous king west roast so she has an air that air could be a threat to king robert's rule so king robert his strongly considering sending this assassin and ned gets a very public argument with him in front of what's called the small council you know. His group of different advisors sanad following his moral elif in. You know the fact that it's incorrect to send a fascinating to kill a pregnant young woman Triggers such a violent argument with his boss that the two of them aren't there to support each other for awhile as other more manipulatives foes get into action to pull it back again to our own dynamics as leaders going into new situation. We need to get clarity on what boss or the organization is expecting from us. And in ed's case he felt he was expected to be truthful and to operate with complete transparency even if he was in front of people of course the king fell his real responsibility was to loyal neds responsibilities being loyal to the king. So if they dug a little deeper and got clarity on that They might have been able to support each other when there was a lot of threats around them as opposed to arguing with each other pulling away not able to communicate with each other and then suffering from invulnerable to their enemies. Yeah it's interesting. Isn't it. Because i think what you touched on there is is a good of a clash of values and and i know you took in some of the articles that i've read. You took quite a bit about values and understanding values and alignment of edges expand on that for us a little bit. Yeah yeah so if you think of king robert net again there's certain values you. Can you fairly sure that they share you. Know they both feel of the importance of courage. Both great warrior coach. But it's clear looking at how king robert behaves. Courage is his top value so even as the king of west arrose he's trying to organize ongoing battles and fights one on one fights almost imagine like a ufc competition on ultimate fighting constitution. He's trying to create these dynamics where he can fight younger warriors simply to prove his courage. He's already the king of the continent. Right this is real responsibility. Probably ought to be in leadership or maybe and if you wanna put it in values navy responsibility to his constituents or maybe his duty you know. Ti view ty his duty as the leader of the organization leader of kingdom. So courage is very high in his hierarchy. So we all have these personal values but that doesn't mean we order them the same way dead values courage but he's much more committed to. What's the honorable thing to do. And the honorable thing is not to send an assassin after a young pregnant woman. So we can sometimes be in a dynamic. I said earlier how we can have goodwill with people but not be transparent and clear about what we'll job. Descriptions are what are. it doesn't have to be a boss to a direct report we could be working with colleagues have all kinds of goodwill but if we're not being transparent about what we actually expect from each other. We can make a lot of assumptions. That's what's happening here. And because their values are so close they feel like they're being honest with each other but in fact they're triggering that is triggered a lot of anger with king and that was both of them in a very vulnerable place. So i think one of the takeaways from that is when any of us again. We don't have to be in rome violent as gained franz but it feels good to do what our values our personal values tell us. Do that can be an incredibly powerful source of guiding our decision-making i'll give you one quick example Not that long ago. A colleague suggested that he might recommend me for a particular administrative. You should job at columbia. I had thought about that possibility for a number of years. And i knew. It wasn't really in alignment with my values that that i respected the people that were great at that job that it wouldn't be fulfilling role for me so when in fact he suggested i take that role right sorry. I'm quite for that role by wife. It was a brilliant idea. And i quickly said well it would be for someone else for me. It's not a right decision. So our values can be very helpful guidance about importance at the same time. I think we have to be careful that we don't jump to our values in volatile environments and assume other people share our values. Ned assumed that king robert would appreciate his honesty when he argued with him in front of the small council about assassinated a young pregnant woman. That's not what happened so we need to understand. Our values recognize the importance of them and finding the line and work. we do. we also need to be careful that we don't assume everyone around us has to say yeah. Let's some really good point. Sarah i think the other thing for me is that many people are not really that conscious of their values in that. Live by them I have very strong values. But they're not necessarily conscious of the values or hell how they behave as a response to that value and also what hierarchy of values the have. So if there's a conflict between two venues in terms of decision to be meddlesome behavior to engaging. I will default suv. What's the most important value for them and pick pick lot necessarily conscious of that that a lot of that is unconscious and so had you has alita become more self aware about your own values so that as a coin you can say. Well i know these values and this is the hierarchy of values. This one's more important than that on a and and i know that for somebody else they might not have always values aureus. I do have the. Mola might be in a different order of imports. Yeah i think we should be clear to that. We all have values that you know. We've sort of learned from our our religion's governments are our organization probably has declared values that are important in what we're talking about a little more here which i know you know is sort of our personal individual values right and for me. I'll take you back. Twenty years ago. It was just started. Jesse and introduce in the executive education heart heart columbia business school and i was the guinea pig so a coach. It was very new and executive coaching twenty years ago. An executive coach asked me a series of questions and and this is basically the process. You've being asked a series of questions. What kind of things do you like to do. You know are you whatever. Are you a surfer. Okay what what word. What's sort of abstract concept you feel is fulfilled by surfie. Oh i feel peace right or i feel adventure you know where i feel serenity Oh you're a skier. So what you know at work are you into it. What part of the organization yards you draw sales. What do you feel like when you're working sales how it's a sense of connection with the organization and with the customers it's su- sense of community right so we have these words. That capture used abstract words that capture feeling good feelings. We have different things you do. And then the coach will help you. Think through how to prioritize. Those i talk about a chapter write talking about it first chapter book. I'm there's different ways to do it. When i was coached. Took a coach. I think a while to to help me. Get to where i had these values and i went remember. I was up mountains north near city and went walking down by this lake. And i thought well okay was that it or there's going to be helpful and within weeks. I was recognizing work that i wanted to do as recognising jobs that maybe i would just have to kind of suck it up and get it done for a while but it wasn't gonna be fulfilling me you start to see how you can guide yourself values and through the hierarchy of about. Yeah that's a. It's a great exercise of. I've done it quite a few times. Who myself and it doesn't always come out in the same hierarchy and sometimes is different values that pop up depending on what what kind of environment urano what situation being thin air in in that time of your life in august. I've done it with other people and usually the People that haven't done it before this a lot. Well response at various. It's fun it's fun to teach because you can see people lights going off. His connections are made of. This is why. I'm always drawn to this kind of work. Depending on which organization this find this sort of sport or hobby spelling and it can be as as we're talking about it can be just a great guide to recognize how to get our life as aligned as impossible can't often situations don't allow that pushed to do things navy yard. Exactly what one here. At least we have a perspective understand all right now one of the one of the things. I'm a little curious of asset I'll let my cynic come add a little bit here because the only if you take something. Like i'm a thrones and and you know this. Many many other condoms series of stories that are very similar to that have the same dynamics and basically there's a whole lot of powell. Games apply pow dynamics. His shifting loyalties in shifting alliances and steaming and trickery often scheming and trick reason liza rewarded now. The people that are the nastiest humans end up winning out in this and sometimes went on what shows with. That's the outcome. I think will huffily real. Life isn't always lock that but then every so often things go on go to situation right now strategy. But i won't go in the political sane where the sense is. The nastiest people rose to the top and a successful. so what What do you say to that. And how do you like as a person of goodwill suggest you never guide those paldan nimitz as as a leader he added. There's there's different ways. I want to jump into that. I'm gonna. I'm gonna do this. There's there's a book that i've been using since i began this course Twelve years ago Fishing ten years. Now here's a novel from the forties called. What makes sammy run and set initially in new york city on the newspaper business and then it jumps to hollywood. And it's of all. The books films plays that i've used. It's the one that every student. I think connects worse and in a way it's a it's a parallel to what you see in front. So i can game of thrones you see a lot of very self centered on nip Dishonest people achieve a certain level of a very real success and we could draw parallels to clinical situations where you know being transparent and authentic accountable and moral good in is doesn't always seem to pay out as well as being given and self interested etc In what makes sammy run. I don't wanna tiredly give it away. But there's a young boy that's grown up in the slums of new york city. And he's very willing to do whatever it takes to get to the top and his. Name's sammy when we talk about him in the class. It's very interesting because sometimes people will admit you know. I've got a little of sammy me you know. It's an often almost every time people say. Oh i worked with a sammy and so soon. I'm going to get back to your question. Try to use that to really analyze. Are there moments when thinking. Sammy might justify of you. Want is a great moment. Early in the novel. Where he's basically just a newsboy and he conned his way into a phone call with a hollywood producer promises script that he didn't even write someone else wrote if he's read it and essentially catalyze as a whole hollywood career out of lying manipulating stealing the other person's script so i'm never because it wouldn't be my personal life. I'm not going to argue that the stealing of the script the even the lying is what's extractable takeaway now other people. Might you know in the in the late eighties. that book. what makes sammy run was used all the time in hollywood to emphasize a certain kind of approach the film business. They were really arguing. Be just like sammy. I would never do that. Because that's not how i i'm not naive enough to think other people won't that's not what i would do and yet i'm open to discussing that in the class and occasional. Have someone will make a strong argument. Shaver that the generally the real takeaway is. Are there moments that we can. Channel the hunger or the confidence of certain meter don't want to embrace their whole character trajectory so in sammy. There's an element where he just believes. Why not me you know. Why can't i be the one that seats. And he has very little doubt sue and he's uninhibited. If he sees the moment he goes at it. And i'm sure you. And i could sit down and talk about politics at about how. Why not me uninhibited You know why those can be very dangerous behaviors. If they're out of control in a political environment in this leadership class and using fiction it can be very useful to go. Hey wait a second. I'm going to get on the phone with a potential employer next week. I want to be more like the sammy that gets on that phone. Call and persuades the employer to hire me than some other character. Who would be filled with doubts. Reiten i want to believe that. I can make the deal happen so in my class. Even when we're talking about leaders that i would consider lower on the moral scale. The question is what can we take from it that we can fit into. Are you know. Ideally moral approach to life. It can still be used useful tactic. yeah i think that's a really important point and i know i said i have this emotional reaction when i'm watching a show will reading a novel story and there's the bad guy and and the bad guy usually you don connect really well with them and you think the villain Doen't lock that person and often you get this effect where if it's a if it's fill mora of clay that I mean there are certain actors that do really well at seems to be a skillset and they're always playing villains. So you kind of associate the actor who is a person for themselves with a bad person. What if it's an exciting first of all sign role played a bad guy because he and i think increasingly we see in a lot of these longer tv dramas game on now but this is true for a lot of them. We see that often. The bad guy doesn't stay the bad guy or bad woman doesn't seem bad woman the hallway through we start to see the human moments and in a way. I think there's something very if we were to pick. If either of us were to pick the political leader we find the least appealing and we feel pretty strongly in our judgement over. We would be better if we could imagine as being the hero in their own hero's journey because of a sense of under of empathizing with them and and i don't mean empathizing with them to approve of their behavior empathizing with them to understand what's driving them and then also understand why they can be affected in that ticket for political theater right in the world so i think often empathy is a very powerful skill for every leader and when it comes to people that enrage you you know whether it's in the political atmosphere in your professional atmosphere on a tv show. If you can empathize with them you can see why they think their heroic and that can give you a better sense of what really drives them. And i think a better sense. It had to confront them. Yeah i think you touched on a whole range of things that i'd love to explode. The hero's journey is something that i'm really. I love the hero's journey and an understanding that from the point of view of people's behavior and pickles journey and applying to all ranjit. different things. the other thing you touched on the was empathy Which i think is something we should explore some more and the yellow no wanted to comment on the. You said you know if somebody really enrages you. I mean we look at the world through our is through values through our experience and and so what we see is not necessarily reality is just what i say and often if you have a very powerful reactions to something it's kind of there's something inside you that has triggered that and if somebody else's enraging the question what is it about that that has enraged and what part of me his mirroring that so my very well being for example a simple example i Have clients procrastinate of set and things and when they progress night. I get very frustrated. I said what are they. keep procrastinating. That what i just get it done and move on your own. Then i sort of reflect that back and saying what are all the things on procrastinating avenue a mazda at procrastination so young getting frustrated with something in somebody else but frustration really they've down unconsciously is with me. Yeah and i i. If i can jump in i think one one thing i've been working on that i need is right in line. Four you're talking about is We all fall into this instinct to judge right and so one of the things. I teach my mba course and i also do it through my consulting company is there's diagnostic called h. Vdi you answer one hundred twenty questions and you get sort of of response on how your preferences communication and and were all prepared to paris. People right so Give a quick way of understanding that. I'm backgrounds as writer and i'm very much on the right side of the model. Very feeble motions is big picture and sexual things. My wife is a chartered financial analyst by training. So she's very near very analytical process-oriented running were were married. You have kids and we have an. We're running a consulting company. So so the obvious advantages are that we both get started by doing the kinds of work with the other person tries to avoid challenges that were often seen. This is getting your point about how you see the world. From one lens we will see the world through lands that the other person doesn't and keep bringing that perception to the other person. And if i go to her and talk over and over and over about the importance of some future problem of project it's going to be really conceptually fascinating and going to result in some really new creative things she's thinking about. What process put in place to get that to happen. And what data are actually bringing me to show this ideas really that good. So we can really clash. Clash can be exacerbated by judging yet i they don't even understand what's important life anyway. I mean we jump to these huge extremists. And you don't have to be married to your business partner and do that right. You can do that all the time and the work environment so for me and i we talk about this a lot in my class. One thing that. I really trying to work on personally because i think it's just smart is to not get overwhelmed by that kind of judgment and to take it back to the political moment. If you're watching someone that you really disagree with politically at. What point is the rage and the judgment energizing and helping you to do something productive at one point. Is it just feeding your anger and useless. Right and i think. In general anger is minimal clue. It's important but i think we all need to lead ourselves to young little less judge mental. So we can actually build stronger relationships with the right p. whole to pursue our goals achieve articles. Yeah i think that's a really important point to setting aside judgment and he talked about empathy earliest. I think having embassy with another person will view or another person stall of doing things or way of looking at things does require setting assad judgment on and it doesn't mean you have to. It doesn't mean you have to sorry to interrupt but it doesn't mean you have to agree with them. You know you might. At the end of the day go. I completely disagree with their approach to leadership within our organization but if we can control if we can at least control the judgment enough that we can see were clearly my belief is we're going to be more effective in what other steps we decided to take to pursue our own goals within. You know normalization to compete. You know we're gonna compete better if we can actually step back from just seeing white rage cross our. Yeah and you know you talked earlier about. In the game of thrones and the story of nate and the king that that there was the communication wasn't clear. Click communication. I think setting aside judgment and particularly if it's a work colleague or business partner or a spouse even more born in that Having really clear communication and having meaningful conversations octa not just talk to somebody about the weather or something like that. I lucked to have meaningful conversation. Because that's that's the way i sink can learn from other people and and also gives me the opportunity to contribute to them in some way and to be able to have a meaningful conversation with. Somebody doesn't require that. I agree with what they say. But at the same time it does require sitting judgement aside so that we can have a meaningful conversation and yet still this great. Yeah and if you're looking at it from a leadership perspective which we are at an even a business perspective if you go back to game of thrones and season one Ned to worry about spoilers at this point over her two years but ned confronts the king's wife about such stuff. Ned has learned and he misjudges her completely. I mean he assumes because she's female that she's not going to have the courage or anger or the focus on her own success that he thinks a man would have and so he goes into that situation judging in a totally different way right like he. He confronts her judging her for not being really the warrior the he is or the king is simply because she's she's not tear wearing armor. Carry the sort and so he. His efforts is misguided efforts to help her. He actually put himself in a vulnerable position. So part of it is We need to recognize strengthened. People around us we need to recognize the potential and not judge them because it's in our own best interests to to succeed right like if he had been able to be a little less judgmental and a little more open trying to listen to her and understand from her he might have found a way. I'm not saying it's it's sure but he might have found a way to build some common ground and move forward without facing the horrible fate that he faces in again to put it in our environment professionally. We can often fallen judge in in a lot of people simplifying the their complexity and then not even giving them the information they might need to create a win win situation with us right so like you're in your instinct to try to have real conversations with people is also the instinct to build a real network each other. Yeah okay now. I mean we touched on that. You know this power dynamic set playing and sometimes people that perhaps Don't share values in behind the way we locked to behave Most successful than we'd wished them to be in an ideal world that the i guess the the one question a nano you talk about this a little bit in the book. It's it's the difference between leading for the psych or the desire to have pal for the cycle of oneself lockets. Now my be powerful. Or i'd love to have to the king where everybody kept house a to me or the idea of the servant feist wooden you know i have. I believe on the latest to other people. Because i can help people become late as as well said talk a little bit about the difference there and what lessons might be in the fictional stories in guy with rhines round that george martin the writer of books his huge fan of history goes back draws argued award roses draws on a lot of different historical situations and again. I don't know exactly how how all the things he drew on. But what you do see in the narrative is that some people that are su only power for only their own self interest achieve very real success for a period of time at a great cost often. Don't have long relationships with people only allies or people that are paying. You know man what you do see. In game of thrones. Is that the people that are able to pass their own self interest and care about the people to be motivated to help other people are the people that find the strength to be resilient against a huge amount of adversity and to give you a real life example of that it's also drawn from from class. I teach the first book i signed. The students is not fiction nonfiction. and it's the autobiography. The first autobiography that frederick douglass wrote after escaped from slavery in the united states. So for those. Who don't know we had slater's part of this country. Nor nineteenth century and frederick douglass born into slavery he managed to escape and then when he escaped his focus was to become a public speaker and rally country around the ugliness in the horror of that element of our system. So where i'm going with. This is that he could have escaped and just pursued his own comfort in his own self interest but he chose to put himself continually at risk to try to change the world. In any game of thrones you see you see parallels that you see the star. Daughters is some of that again. I don't wanna get too far. Show that in a way with the nearest target area in his young pregnant woman. I was talking about before. So i think fiction can be a great way for us to look at got question and i don't think there's always going to be an easy answer. There's always gonna be people that have acquired wealth power and numerous advantages and had done it without being focused on anyone around the cells that is the nature of were muted. live in. it's got to happen Me what's important. Is making the decision about how i wanna live my life and i know that i there's things i wanna do. I wanna make sure my family's taken care of him. I wanna make sure. We have money to repay pair the car or i mean. There's there's things that i want just as much as anyone else is energizing to able to get out of your own self interest and thinking about helping them and i am businessworld where i've worked with so many senior executives. You see that all the time. That of course. This hour matters horse benefits matter but what also matters is being able to know that their work has some value beyond. Just you know paycheck. Y'all think they they frederick douglass. One is a really interesting example. Because the thing. That that i sort of immediately when you brought that up while his courage and the latest like that courage is such an important part of that because if my understanding of the histories correct than Slaves that escaped slavery. When if i got captured they were at risk of today's and and so you know he was taking this huge risk by getting on public stages and speaking and in doing that because he believes so strongly that he could make a difference by convincing other people. Let's library was wrong. He absolutely there. Was that great film. Whatever eight nine years ago twelve years a slave at it's about some of hungry. He actually was a slave but he was dragged into slavery and douglas. Clearly that was a wrist. He he had to eventually go to the united kingdom and then through the money various donations. Hey is former slave owner to get his fruit in chile to do that. He was at continual risk of the united states being dragged back to slave states and we have the fugitive slave act Where people could go to other states collect sleighs grinning back and get paid for this kind of a about so courage. A huge encouraged takes us. Back to said joseph campbell in the hero's journey right because because the hero's journey for those who don't know is is extracted from the work of the thala. Gist and joseph campbell. Who actually wants to columbia ran track columbia and is going to get his doctorate literature from columbia that he decided that he had a different colleen and he wanted to write more about these different religions and philosophies in stories and narratives from different cultures so he actually left graduate. English department went upstate. New york new boston money. He'd made a jazz musician and wrote different publishers. And said can you send me these. He's different books. I'm interested in. He wrote a book called the hero with a thousand faces. George lucas off when he made the first star wars which propel campbell is agree exchange for his life. But it's this idea that there's this commonality in all these different this and it's about the need for the hero. The heroin to recognize being called to do something and step forward and have the courage to call. And really when you think about it. We're all doing that. From the beginning of our life i mean will you go That's why that's why that whole idea was so powerful. Because he studied all the different stories in missed analysts stories in midst going back. Sales of years were essentially parallels to what happened in life. Some of them were real life. Some of them were adaptions of relaxed. Some of them were fantasy but based on people's experience of life and and across all the different cultures and across all the different religions Common same that he discovered a net. Because it's bicycler life. Yeah that's great. I love the way you put basically life and wouldn't argue. He would argue that that. If you hear the call so that adventure and you don't take it you may really feel a sense of loss right. You name later realized that some adventure was put in front of you to take now to get back to ned stark. Look he was called to adventure and he took it and it all went right so i do think that that we need to find some balance in our life of being proactive but also being aware of how to lead ourselves those those challenges so that we can't control our fate of course that we can do the best we can to confront university and and succeed and to me as you said that's life right. I mean if we're gonna and we're going to accept the adventure then let's do it and if we're not we better ask ourselves. Why not win the hero's journey that there is you know the colder adventure. Which in in skies was the king saying. Come down murad hand man In your example lilia it was the day's other offer that somebody suggests that do this other job opening that somebody suggested o'clock said that's a colder adventure and and all of while We have first response is no no. Don't want china enjoyed to reject ical. So there is that step of rejecting the coal and it's always a good idea to really be aware of that and said yeah that is necessarily the end though but the decision might be bright society. Now that's not more cooling Right now or that's not my cooling ever but it's good to reflect on that site you know am i m. I just stayed off. Yeah taking the next step of moving forward of getting outside of my comfort zone and along hero's journey when you get he on that nick accept the cold then. There's a whole lot of tests along the way that might be question. Might be questioned whether that the the Mayak chirac decision. Yeah and i felt that writing. The winner died. Book was certainly a your jerry which which by the way that that that offer that call to adventure came. After the job wasn't wasn't a job offer the suggestion that i've plied your job came a couple of years before and i did think about it and it was easy for me. I just think it's fruits your point. Who's easy for me to realize. That wasn't the right call. That wasn't right adventure when i was offered the idea of writing this book. Wintered i- gouging thrones. I knew i had to do it. I mean i knew it. And i mean it was like i knew it was going to be hard and but that's a good place to be when you're really excited about something to do. Even if you know it's going to be hard you go. Well it's gonna be hard because going to be energy excited. Yeah i think that comes back to what we were talking about earlier. The thing really clear about your own values and and then when something like this comes up often that if if i'm can make a really quick decision they're inspired really excited about this even though it's scary of its its aligns with so many of my values and being really clear about the values enables. You'd actually make that quick decision. Yeah well and i'll give you. I totally agree. And i'll give you an example with a winner died book I had seen the first episode of it. And i thought it was good. My wife didn't like it is so we watch more the first episode. Then when we were talking to the editor. I started reading the books. We started watching. My wife became a huge fan. She read the books twice right. And and if we're on camera show you how big the densities are up where we're going with all that is that shawnee most exciting heart was recognizing. I love tolkien. Wrote in boy right. I i haven't been at all involved. Is any real epic fantasy type fiction in my in marine or shows that i watch it so it was this sense that can i take all of these great leadership ideas that i've had the benefit of learnings from columbia. And can i apply them to this whole new thing and can i do it in a way that fulfils professors whose ideas on drawing on and create a side of herself and that for me was right. There i was. I was inside and i needed that excitement because when it got hard i needed the excitement to get me through all the parts that scared the hell out. I love it. And you brought up token i mean i'm a big fan of lord of the rings and the when i started researching and writing some of your articles and reading some book and learning about game of thrones are so holler parallels here with lord of the rings. I don't know why. I never really got into game of thrones so i looked at the books because at the moment it's not running on any of the subscription services here in australia so i looked at the books and and i'm a big fan of audiobooks off. Just get the audio book. Will i think the first of ten of the books goes full. Forty eight hours the audio narration. So i'm not going to be able to do that before. This show is something george. Martin was also a huge fan. Full kennedy actually. What of the quotes. Which i put up for my students as he said when i die. Don't don't take me to have just take of middle earth. I love it now. I believe there's a new book coming out soon. that's taken a little while get underway. Yeah i think he's. He's been incredibly prolific. But it's a lot of different projects in As a writer. I mean you know you see people that give him a hard time for not finishing second to the game series. I feel like hey. He's he's paid his price. He can do whatever he wants this time right but he did just signed a big deal with hbo and possibly even more prequels. The one that's already is one. that's already in production from his history of the tar jerian family before it's called fire and blood. I think and i just read today. That there's a broadway stand in australia. Bound play since being developed platens. H so I was driving my son to schools. It's really interesting to see how many generations from now are people. Still looking at game of thrones. Does it become kind of like a parallel to shakespeare people. I don't i don't know but it's a fascinating time to watch. Tv in They're happening Just at the time. Then then we've gone on for quattro all got pretty excited so i think it's a good point now. I mean there's lots of great leadership lessons. Aaron and i said my encourage people to read the book particularly she have Watch game of thrones and you are familiar with the story a probably make a lot more sense to you but even if you haven't got a lot out of the book not having ever watched a single i tried. I tried to provide context naked value there and it's fascinating that you know. There's so many lessons in leadership problems as fictional stories. So i think it's a good time now to move onto the buzzer which is our innovation around. And it's designed to help our audience to primarily innovators in latest Tips moore experience. So there's five questions and hopefully you will give us a really insightful. Answers that spy the lease mitochondria. Something that is a result. Okay let's go. So what's the number one thing you think anyone needs to do to be more innovative. I think you have to be resilient I'm a partnership with an actor friend of mine director. Now we've been trying to sell a tv show for about eight years. I think about the game book. Everything that i've managed to achieve with some has an element of innovation has required pushing up against a lot of people that say no hearing a lot of nose and then having resilience of component that resilience is her To kind of ask yourself over and over. Is this something. I really believe in doing it for at if you keep saying yes and he keep believing in it. It doesn't mean it doesn't mean i'm gonna solve his tv show. Could it does mean some doors open and game. The thrones book was very similar. The editor came to me. Then there's a whole nother jury involved. The ended up back with the same editor that everything that i've publishing a novel this year that i started writing twenty years you right and and it's an innovative novel and i think sometimes things just take time they're going to take you have to be zoya. That's the t- that's the word folks are them. And i keep a picture of frederick douglass Because he's a symbol of being resilient of just not quit the fight or i'm going to sail when i'm not gonna say some. Yeah and and again coming back to the idea of values and beliefs and being really clear about what fits into those values. Were they feel strongly about so. Then you can. You can keep posted veering on that possible so it helps with resilience i think. Yeah using the values to coach yourself to persevere be resilient that's great that's great. So what's what's the best thing you've done to new ideas for me it probably. I'll i'll take you back to. When i was out of graduate school and i was trying to write a novel about los angeles Eventually was published after about five years of writing an effort I kept trying to look at that book from a fresh perspective. And we'll get myself from a fresh perspective and not try to extract ideas from all around right and so there's a professor bill duggan. Who taught very much about that out. Great creativity comes from polling ideas off different shells and then juxtaposing so for me. A big idea at one point was wait. I'm spending all this time nisha and spending all this time professionally fascinated and pursuing work fiction. Can i bring these two together and cannot create anew thing so i'm often looking things through that lens. Like what take from over here that might fit from something over there and create something new and and again. This is appointing bill. Duggan would agree learning from your predecessors like taking taking a good idea that someone used over here and seeing if that fits with another idea you have here as soon as you can generate holding creation. He i think they the skill of connecting the dots between things that same to be at first glance totally is something that i think generates. Lots of ideas and alternate seem so an clearly. You've done that with the fiction writing and poetry at some point and and been the leadership of education. You're doing what example that. I often use in my teaching george lucas when he created the first star wars right so he had grown up with a lot of tv shows from the fifties and sixties than hatch heroes and then in the seventies. A lot of the movies were rumors about anti chief. Wait a second. He's actually supposed to work on apocalypse now Which is a very dark movie. And then he. If i wait a second i'm gonna take so the the american involvement in this very dark moment of vietnam and then i'm gonna connected to the idea of kind of a space opera where there's heroism. And then he created something completely different and he and he drew. He drew ideas from all over the place from different experts. But by juxtaposing these things very few people would actually look at star wars and think it has anything to do. The aw are conflict. Vietnam the sixties except strides. But he was able to bring some things together and create something jury fresh thyme and transformed industry right. Yes certainly did now. What's the one resource. You use most often for me. I'm thinking back to when i was first starting in both screenwriting fiction. I think it's very. It's very true to this day again. We're not on camera but in my home office. My wife's side of the desk is very clean and everything is very well ordered on my side. There's just books falling all over his hostess with notes. There's magazine articles cutout columbia professor in eric. Abrahamson kuroda book. Some years back called perfect ness personnel about this idea that often from mass comm juxtaposition of things a little bit in line muggy idea but from nastiness can sometimes come great ideas so for me. It's it's often this balance of hiking. Desert meditating calming my mind but then just surrounding myself. I all kinds of books and magazines and shows in kind of diving into different things and just waiting for the ideas to percolate. I mean at this point. I think i've just her sixtieth year last year. I think i caught him. My creativity approach is true weather. I'm writing fiction or working on the leadership book or or teaching leadership. Mean a lot of what i do really might my full time. Job is teaching leadership. And i'm always trying to pull things together in different ways Hana from a mass to create something that connects with business leaders and in a new fresh way mysterious. Yeah i love the that one of the k. Pots there is that balance between comedy. Mind sime time that that sort of disruptive nitro lots of different information. That's just sort of light at this all right now. What's the best way to cape a client on track if you're working with somebody on on the leadership on approving a so keep them on track and we're already working together on a project or i'm selling them on or both. I guess well mainly you were working. We're working with other well. I've spent a lot of my time. Line kind conference centers and sort of onsite programs. Now of course the last year a lot of that's been done virtually hybrids words virtual classroom and virtual of i know wish with senior executives. I think a lot of it is again trying to make were exciting to them with a recognition of their own time constraints and so trying to find ways to executive education. Were which which i've done. Rick columbia business school. A lot of it in the past was very experienced oriented. So we're gonna go take fencing class here with colombia's fencing team or gonna go go with these world famous of rowers who wrote across the atlantic ocean we're gonna we're gonna row for one day kind of experience what we can extract from that In terms of work i've done individuals consult in addition it with executive education programs. All these things like writing the story. Everyone write a story which is very new experience for everyone class. They're envisioning their own hero's journey Achieve success in the future. So i think you can't just roll out wailer slate and expect to win anyone's true transformational engaged that to reduce something unique and it's gotta be something unique that you that you believe it. I know bob colon were talking about earlier. I've worked with him Independently as a consultant. I work within the business school columbia and he brings in improv and that creates all of those things create a little a certain amount of discomfort. I know 'cause i've done them. In addition to teaching some of them. I've participated in some of them and a little bit of discomfort is not a bad thing and learning because it gets us out of that armchair mode where we sit back and analyze. Everything is this. Were out of the set on top of everything right mirny. Sometimes you'd be shaken up. One thing i did. It's about ten years. But i got pretty heavily into a lot of martial arts type stuff and i remember thinking you know. Hey this is. This is nerve wracking but this is also good for his. This is helping me to recognize how intense like be so. I tried to bring some creativity and intensity to stop to keep people enacted and then of course you know if it's it's helping workout it's gotta fit with what they need so you really need to be able to listen you get on the phone and i can sometimes operated this if i get on the phone hundred percents that i know what they need. That's authorized on the phone and listen to what they need. They might not know what they need but i. I don't necessarily have the answer right away. We need to get together. Did something with the world through their lines to love it on lots of focus their own experience and innovation around that and it occurred to me because you said it helps push people outside their comfort zone a little bit on if you think of the adult learning model the the the id or where when somebody gets to the point of sign all this is all too hard on. I just can't do this all too hard. You said that's right now you're in the learning mode because if it's too easy not learning and win win Because by thickly you're ignoring the the any lessons that come out of that but it's odd. You really focused on. What do i need to dan. And i think. And i agree and i think n. You remember it later when this drama for using fiction at a mean someone later one of my students later is going to be an intense situation. And they're gonna flash on sammy. From what makes sammy run. Or they're gonna flash on searcy. Lancaster from game of thrones right. And so or you could be you know in a difficult moment in your organization where you're struggling to get a line that with team and you suddenly remember raleigh or you know so. It's it's it's the intensity of it can then bubble up later when you need to lead yourself to then effectively lead other people and i think part of that too doesn't always have to just be underneath. It's not it's not just the experience and engaging something that scares you although there's an element of that circle but just i just completed a class with my executive mba students about two months ago where he did a whole block week and five eight hour days such five eight hour days and just talking to each other sharing ideas indicate back and forth in a lot of that is just through honest communication. People start to learn so much about each other. They also shines line and emerged about cells and they and accidents vary. Spirits are as often just honest conversation well facilitated around intense practical questions in bill great source of knowledge in a person and with other colleagues. Yeah i love that. Love that whole approach for right now. What final question the buzzer. What's the number one thing. Anyone can do differentiate themselves again. I feel like you. You have to be a true believer and do something that you really love that that sense that it's a calling. You may go through life and have a couple of college right but that sense that any any you can't create that artificial and you have to earn that right and if you're in the innovation space where you're trying to bring a new idea forward You yourself might not even one hundred percent know how it's gonna come out but you have to have that true believer confidence that something magical is going to happen. He's view have that. You're not gonna hook the people you're not going to be resilient You're not gonna find your way to the to the great place that you're envisioning if you don't have that that right beside Moment in shakespeare in love that with all trone academy awards some years back. But i think it's geoffrey rush plays the producer if i'm right at the beginning like hanging his feet over these coals and they're you know threatening to torture him because he owes them money he's the producer of plays at some point. They're saying well. Why do you think this is going to happen. How do you think this is gonna come together. And he goes. It always does. It's magical. it always comes together. But i always have him in my mind when i'm trying to finish up because i'm thinking it's not a hundred percent. Rational hundred percent rational. Everyone would have done. It doesn't mean you're going to get there. It doesn't mean you're gonna get that's part of why it's a hero jury. It's are you going to take it. That's the thing you've got to be in that space. Like i'm gonna fight for it. One hundred thousand other people have done it. It might not work. But i'm in that space. Go for love it. Yeah and shakespeare in love is one that i have seen so i remember that same great. It's a great pet or i will thanks. Process has been fabulous people. Reach out to you and say thanks for it. You should find out more bad you get hold of the hook. We know die Well my website is. Www craven leadership so c. r. a. v. as in victor e. n. lucia com. I'm also i'm linked in those us. Instagram and twitter. My handle is having a gentleman. Mercury in the licensed l. e. v. s. o. f. a. sofa big old wide car. That family five so. I'm on instagram twitter at sosa. Yeah and i think three those you can find me. And i'd love to hear from anyone and book is translated in turkish russian serbian. The english did the paperback novels. Here in conscience all on amazon or rs noble. And if you do audible that sort of thing. I actually recorded the audio. That was that was that was an adventure but it was really fun so anyway. I hear your thoughts about the book and if i can help. Helpful crime will puzzle those links in the senate so pickled quick strike through now. Do you have any parting advice. Rally size we wrap this up. Why i i feel like i've said probably a lot. I think a certain talked a lot. It's hope that. I said a lot of but i would. I would say that for me. One thing that is in my mind a lot and maybe it does have to do with sixty now and to knee. Anyways that feels young grandmother. Younger one feels But one thing. I do very aware of now. Is that when i look back in my life often when i trust my instincts and i went after something really big whether i succeeded or not. It's okay. I feel so good that i went after am i look back in my life and i think in the times when i treated people right whether it was a friendship relationship professional relationship i feel good about and if there's times when i feel like i could. I remember the times. When i feel i could have done a little more so i often say that tonight students is take the high road from people right just pursue the things that you're hungry sue and their lives or anything like mine. I feel like i can live with my my failures. Federal seem that way seems the fact that i had the courage to fight for that and and i think it you know the i mean i'm reflecting a low tone whenever traded people badly. And you know you go back to younger days and you're impulsive and paps reactive and and there were times when i have to say that wasn't the best way to do. It said today on a lot more conscious of that site. Trading people rod really going may night. i'm sure we in the scope of the world. We were both probably pretty good people all the time. But i think it's i think it's recognizing the taking the high road in treating people. Right is easier than having to decide if some other approach you should. I thankfully i think i usually did the right thing and the times that i didn't i still remember very clearly and i think so what i'm talking to people in offering my you know n- advice it's usually gesturing people right and just fight for care about spend any time trying to decide. That might be perfect. Just throw it was just gonna say Than lying and then maintaining the laws i think is customer energy much as it just to be transparent and honest and do the right thing jap beautifully said. I totally agree or i. Finally who else should i get this podcast. And why why. I'm gonna send you a couple different thoughts. I wrote out to my colleague at columbia university. Paul ingram and he. He said absolutely his loves a i last Last fall. I had young novelist sitting in on my mba class. Seen abigail rosewood is. She wrote a book came out a couple of years. Call if i had to lies. And i found it really interesting to bring a young novelist into a group of graduate students in have talk about the entrepreneurial elements of trying to pursue her vision. So here i am. You know much later in my by arc of my life talking about it. And i think having someone who's earlier younger in that stage talking about it could be really great. Then i have a few other aussies. I've got to track down while she shoot. You got to have some. His honor is what's so we'll get in touch with poll and abigail and from unc. Whether we can line up times where we can can bring them on the shows. Well i think they would both be wonderful. Paul's of world-class professor teacher in my success is probably sixty. Percents is support and energy entrance. Teaching will thanks for that. And thanks so much for sharing your time and your insights Generously die really enjoyed this of enjoy. That conversation and I i was a little apprehensive. Not having really paid any attention. At all. To game of thrones that aren't get meaning out of that but when i when i read the book now this plenty of good information here that i can take away. Even though i haven't seen game of thrones so i encourage the listener gallon ray the book check it out. And even if you haven't watch game of thrones it might actually lead you to come binge-watch. I said i said to bros before the might be responsible for may be watching demos runs now so yes All of s for the future. Bruce and let stayntouch thanks. That was wonderful pleasure. And i really appreciate it. Hope you enjoyed that. Ruin engaging and insightful conversation with bruce and took something away from his episode bruce shed some much value in the stories. We discussed today the concept of shared values and not assuming that others who share your values have the same priorities. They were the ones that stood out for me. And of course the idea of based leadership. I'd love to know what you took away from bruce's episode leave a comment below the blog. Post which you can find another biz dot. Co forward slash. Bruce craven that is b. r. u. c. a. c. r. iv in all lowercase or one word in other biz dot co forward slash. Bruce craven you'll also find contact information there for getting in touch with bruce as well as links to the craven leadership website to the book win or die leadership secrets. From game of thrones to bruce's social media pages and the other resources we spoke about in today's conversation. Nephew liked this episode place. Don keep it to yourself shared with two other people at least two other people who it might help and tagging on that shares. Sir i can reach out to you and thank you. Bruce suggested that we have a conversation with columbia business. School professor's po ingram and bill duggan as well as novelist abigail rosewood on future enough above podcast episodes so pull abigail and bill. Keep an eye on your inbox for an invitation from us to the inova bus podcast. Courtesy of bruce. Craven kunin again to the next episode of the inevitable's podcast. We've got yet more fantastic s lined up including rotting and editing coach. Definitely gray grant and business operations architect sydell stewart. Thanks for listening to this episode. Make sure you subscribe to the show to be reminded of episodes. It's free to subscribe labor review. Like even amac. I'm asking you to leave a review because it helps other people find show inova biz dot. Co two joint marketing transformation community and excess a free gift. My team and i might view it's the mocking mazda mini class. We wanna give you everything you need to transform your marketing into a human senate relationship trumka's whereas engine until next on on your stress from enough of his remember be awesome and keep innovating

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