APG 379 Artificial Intelligence
It's the airline pie guy airline pilot guy episode three seventy nine. Hello. You're listening to the airline pilot guy show, the view from our side of the cockpit door with your host, captain. Jeff broadcasting live from studio, four gene at the Hilton garden inn Doerum North Carolina. Day shows reported on the thirteenth of June twenty nine. Today's episode helicopter pilot dies quest landing on top of the city. Skyscraper an airline passenger in gem road. Conc- yet, thinking with the lavatory door wore news your feedback, and as plane sales. Dax on debate bar too, to get all settled in Cray tables, and seek Bax in the upright and locked position like chronic vices power on. I'm radio Roger like three seventy nine is ready for Bush. Thanks radio. Roger. He's a real light radio professional in the world's largest media market, New York City refer. She had him doing that force, and you're listening to the airline pilot gone show to navy Asian podcasts for we cover aviation news and at our commentary to it, and we also answer your feedback, and here with me to help us all with that from lakeside studio in South Carolina. She's a doctor skydiver marathon, runner strength training junkie, IB connoisseur and commercial multi engine instrument rated pilot her name is Dr Steph. Death fairness after. Thank you, very nice to see you as well. Looking forward to a great show. Absolutely. And. From his studio and the English countryside professional photographer. Former RAF are W, F fighter pilot, former captain for an international airline based in London. It is captain, Nick. Hi that Jeff and high staff. Yeah, it's floating away. We and my brother and twin. Southerly just can't wait for the rain. They. Thank not very good flying conditions, but fine for poke costing excellent and Dana will hopefully be joining us later in the show. So we'll hold off on the sound effect for him. And when he joins us, we'll play that most likely. Hello, everyone. How's everybody have been doing? No just getting work as Greg pretty good Steffes. You know, it wasn't that long ago. You know, the last show in the space between Lascaux and the one before that was a big space this time, it was kind of shortened period of time. So not a lot of time between the last episode in this one, and so probably not a lot lot of stuff done. But Steph, how about yourself, have you been doing anything else? Besides your lovely work. I can't I'm trying to think what actually did last weekend. You think I would remember this? Friday. Yes. And so actually did do very much weakened is kind of productive around the house. It was pretty rainy last weekend. So it was definitely not good for outdoor flying skied activities actually had a ton of rain. It rained a bunch again, last night on the lake level outside. My house is very high like almost touching. The bottom of the stationary doc, is very high, but there's all kinds of fun things to be done indoors. So I did they just built a new indoor skydiving wind tunnel a in concord North Carolina. So I went up there on Tuesday nights for about an hour and a half. And turns out, I'm really terrible at a skydiving confined to a small tube enclosed structure. When you're up there, you're all over the place. Yeah. Well, it's your Snyder's. I is good because it really there's a lot to work on lots. Learn helps you technique and stuff. Yeah. Absolutely. So Peigen I'm gonna take a friend of mine on her offer for some more coaching and or on that some more fund. Sounds good. I've seen this so the competition. Some people do those people are really good. If you wanna see the opposite of that is. Well. In there by myself. It's fine. Part of the problem is, is what I'm trying to. Do things with other people. So fly with other people in the wind tunnel. I have bird bones their hollow. I weighed nothing and to the speed of the wind that they usually need to create for most people is much greater than what I actually need your. I have a very difficult time. You'll pin to the pretty much. Their place. Doesn't seem like it's something that would be very challenging exercise, like just physically, but I was exhausted at the end of, you know, like six minutes, whereas tunnel time. This challenging training, the training and a lot of fun and looking forward to do some doing some more of that, now that it's very close inconvenient to my place of work, so excellent. Okay. Well Nick how about yourself? Have you been busy with anything this last few days? Yeah. Nothing dramatic. I drive up to our f- Marham Marham when I was in the F O's was where only tangkas in a refueling tankers. And we used to have to go there for like a two day Eto every fuelling receive as calls, and I was trying to explain to the, the audience during one of my, Royal aeronautical society late explained that the audience what the costs involved editor feelings, really quite easy. The black trails a hose with the boss. Get on. I stick, probably about a stick the private in the boss and feel Fleiss. When I'm full, I disengage guy way can you make that close loss to? Anyway. Yeah. We got lost 'bout that, but they're very nice bunch of people Marham is growing. It is to be the new f thirty five lightning to operational conversion unit and I'm show they'll have six one. Seven squadron is also foaming that with f thirty five six seven the famous dam busters squadron. So yet they, they fullness. Oh, it's a big growing basin. The guy that hosted me and took me in the mess of very nice, but carry Ma he's Gordon. Genetic gonna be one of the main engineers on the F thirty five project and he showed me around the mess, which is nice. I'm being enough says mess for many years. And it's just as I recall it like a gentleman's, except those have laid his ended up gentlemen, now beautiful dining room. Let's wonderful paintings everywhere, silhouette ready, re. Really raw the grant when I was in the service. I never even thought about it. But now visiting one from the outside. I'm gun. Well, that's pretty. Yeah. Giant used to live by slot this. Yeah. By different Vinai slutty audience entirely job us up just around there long drive. So I'm a bit pooped over here. When you say a gentlemen's club, it has a different connotation. He should have a lot of to change. Let's true gentlemen. Not quite one dollar five dollar Bill. This is is has waiters in white coats. Serving discrediting drinks on Silva trays the higher end establishments have things like that. But then, again, people have don't have a lot of close on at all. A lot of large sofas, and TV's sofas. I was thinking. The wrong direction completely try to get back on track. I'm sorry. History place, and, and levity to see any problem. Was that the weather here has been abysmal last few days? I drive up and back in pouring rain. It's nearly two miles, and it's it's nine two hundred miles on American right. Where it's pretty straits and not a lot of traffic. It's really hard work. Sometimes when you getting around some of our major rates in foul weather. Yeah. It was hot but nice to be on the show. I lost I can relax with the beer. Yes. And here yesterday. And today, the weather in the south southeastern United States has been lovely. I mean yesterday I was in Louisville and was walking the streets and it was just so pleasant. In fact, when the wind was blowing, it was almost chili which is very unusual for a run last night. I mean it was not great here because we had a ton of rain yesterday but. When I went for my run last night at about eight thirty. It was sixty degrees outside. Does just unheard of poor. It's so eastern United States June. I must have set you know, whole bunch of low temperature records. Some light nice late is who won't the streets. You could find some of them in gentlemen's clubs expect. Probably. Yeah. Rich. Mahogany, I, why do I sense, the for the show already developed? Well, hey, as soon as you have a great title, and we can start working on the artwork in. Oh, yeah. Stuff out. Let's don't let stay away from the gentleman's club. Never mind. Okay. Anything else Nick before I tell you about what I've been doing. I know heads okay? Weekend did not fly. And actually I had several days off. And there was a lot of a lot of overtime flying green slip flying for my company, and I refrained from accepting any of them. I think there must have been ten to fifteen. I was offered to day out in back of green slips easy green slips, but thought you know, I really don't feel like flying in this really, really crappy weather, and I've kind of obligated myself to sing in a couple of music ensembles at my church. So I, I knew that I was needed for that. So I, I said, no, I'm gonna stay at home. I'm gonna take a few days off and relax a little bit. So I went out on a trip yesterday. And I'm a three day trip day too right now and supposed to be a Little Rock on Wednesday. But we were rerouted Burri. Routed on Wednesday and ended up in Louisville Kentucky and that was always a actually it was a good reroute for us. I think got in a little bit earlier and a little bit shorter flight and love the hotel in downtown level. It's an embassy suites in, it's an old historic buildings just really nice, but over the weekend, another reason why didn't accept any of these proffered trips for overtime flying. Was that few about a week ago or so somebody called me up and said that they were going to be at the Atlanta international airport on their way from somewhere back home to Europe. And if I were around the airport that this person would love to meet up with me, and I said, well, I'm, I'm off, but I'll drive down or take the train down and meet with you. And so that's what I did. And I have some audio. Bolaise gentlemen, a few days ago, I received a text from Marcus volt, or the host of the very professional and amazing engineering, and science podcast is that what you characterize it as engineering and science aviation stuff there. Marcus a licensed glider pilot. And I learned today that he's a licensed, Arabic lied glider pilot. I had no idea that it was such a thing anyway. So he said, hey, I'm going to be in the Atlanta airport on Sunday. If you're gonna be around as a while and home. And yeah I'll definitely had down there. And we can meet up and I'm gonna let Marcus tell you exactly why he flew through Atlanta and then up to Fort, Wayne of all places for Wayne, Indiana, Indiana. And then now he's coming back and heading back to Germany after this. So Marcus say Hello to everybody. Hello. Okay. You need to say more than that. More more. Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah, I was said, the Fort Wayne show. Saw fifty twos and Casey, one thirty five and Thunderbirds were also there. And that was the occasion why it had been there as well. Okay. So you so a lot of people would be thinking, okay. Well, it's kind of cool to come to the United States Fort Wayne to see an air show. Okay. The thunderbirds. Yeah. You never seen him before. Okay. Well, it's a so what kind of experience, did you have with the seeing Thunderbirds relatively close one? Right. So I did see. So when I was looking at their flight line, I would see five F16.'s instead of six. Okay. So where was the sixth, one below me are around me or whatever? Okay. So I am not understanding help us out here. Well, I got extremely lucky and I go to ride in f sixteen d with the Thunderbirds. And so that kind of developed over the last few months. And so obviously, I had to fly over to the US to be able to excess the airplane. And so that's why was here fantastic Marcus shared with me that, and I'm still the funding this hard to believe. But he said that the reason why he started doing a podcast was so that he could have the opportunity someday to apply to fly and get a ride with the air force Thunderbirds. I have the burger. And so while I mean, and you finally kinda tained your your master plan your goal and you, you attained it, and it must be a great feeling. So I had literally been in love with the F sixteens. And since I was twelve and about ten eleven years ago. Steve topper airspeed online podcast. He got a flight with Thunderbirds, and I thought, well, that's cool. If putt costs can, you know is important enough for them to take them out to stop what causes well? And that was the very specific goal. And so it's a really big deal both all the podcast and for me personally that this worked out, really, really cool. So that's interesting people ask me how why I got into podcasting? And as I shared many times, it was because I wanted to play with this these toys, this all this technology and gadgets and stuff like that. That was really my. My motivation, obviously years was much better motivation to actually get a ride with. Thunderbirds. I, I cost. Right. Did something about software engineering with a couple of friends before so that was like three years earlier. And so I, I was over the audio aspect with that podcast. And then as which over to towel because it got bored with the software stuff and signs in engineering. I thought is broader more interesting. But what actually triggered the decision to stop? While Steve toppers on both. Right. Well, are you going? Are you going to contact Steve in until him? Thank you for the motivation. I did that actually contact him in, in in advance to ask him any tips, anything, I should know and. The only thing he said, whilst well, stick very specifically, what they ask of you, because the reason why he was able to fly that the guy who was originally scheduled he didn't bring his filming person. The, you know, the guy who recalls everything and so his flight was cancelled. And so that's when Steve the unity, that's what he said. He's at be very stick executive what the ask you, right? Because you may never have this opportunity. Again, I guess you can scratch to me replaced with a will yes. Okay with with certainty. You'll never have that opportunity again. So how long how long was the was the flight an hour few minutes? That's awesome. That's a typical Saudi, that's you know, the fuel load and everything else. So, yeah, we, we took off a few few minutes straight to Moala midday to operations area there we did a bunch of robotics pulled the obligatory nine jeez. I got to fly a little bit myself as. Very cool, of course. And then we flew back and that's when we did the formation flying with the other sixteen and then landed after about an hour. Wow. That is I mean it's just thrilling hearing you talk about it. I'm just so happy that you attain your goal. And I told Marcus at this must be a, a huge letdown for you. Now, are you gonna stop podcasting? He said, no, he assured me. He's not gonna stop. He's just going to have to come up with some new goal. I guess that will be tough. I mean. Not just because objectively it's tough, but also because I kind of made this mind goal. Right. This has been this huge looming goal. Now reached it and other the question is really a little bit. What will come next? Well, I'm sure it's going to be great. And I can't wait to hear what it is. And folks, you need to definitely subscribe to the mega podcast because it's an awesome podcast, even captain nNcholas van featured on the show. I think that's how he got into this. Whole casting thing, right? I met him some on Facebook, and then he kind of off doing with me. He kind of get into got into your sphere of influence, and then you sucked him up. Well, so that so we now have somebody to blame for all this. It's your fault. Thanks, a lot Marcus. All right. Well, thank you very much for sharing the story with the audience, and it was so nice to be able to meet you, and thanks for sector. Finding your Sunday afternoon and coming out. It was not. It was it was nothing. It was nothing to back to you, Jeff in the studio, what I was trying to say there. It was not a sacrifice at all. It was a pleasure. Instead of it was nothing. Nothing. Nothing like that came through my if. Well, that's what I meant. Read between the lines. When I say silly things. That's fair enough. It was great seeing him and great hearing his, his experience with flying with the Thunderbirds in the f sixteen and I thought it was really interesting. How he that was really. The reason why he started doing his science and engineering podcasts so that he could. Like goal. Obviously, he loves flying related stuff love their shows are flying elated. Yeah. He says it gets all kinds of negative feedback because he's always talking about flying stuff. The whole science and engineering side of things aren't as interested Bill. Will they should be the should be? Yeah. It's wrong with these people on the Trump white to him more about string theory. Yeah. Me too. Episodes in German. But I don't really understand. Well, the English ones might just as well be Jim. Some of them. Anyway, really. I was telling him about. He had no idea how this whole thing with Nick came about. And I said, we you understand that. I did not realize that the Nick Anderson that you had on one of your podcasts was the same nickel Anderson that was sending me audio feedback, and the same Nick Anderson who we invited to be a guest host a permanent host on her show, until after I asked you that, and it was like, one, I don't know, if you remember, whatever it was is like a big libel. Went off in my head and went wait. You're that you're that same guy Marcus. There's three of us. Well, I didn't think I didn't the names. You know, I'm terrible with names. So anyway. Yeah, that's true. That's true. Very nice. It wasn't as my my first far into podcasting on Marcus is show and he's a great interview this about it. It was good fun. I'm great guy. We had a great time at TGI Fridays. I was showing him some great American culture, and great food. Got one of those down the writing Guilford come. Come to come to the Charlotte area. Sometime. We'll, hey, I tried to one flew south a very nice, probably the nicest upscale wreck ref restaurant in the Atlanta airport, and but he said, well, he didn't like sushi. So I think I have they have other things besides sushi. I was thinking I was going to I was going to treat him and he steered us over to TGIF TGI Fridays, because he was intending to pick up the tab, so that, that we found out after the fact that, that's the reason why he didn't wanna go need at the really fancy expensive restaurant. I was going to pay for it because I didn't know that. This is trying to keep it reason. He was. Yeah. Marcus anything in the airport is like like. And is brought about the coffee fund can can. Yeah. That's what I was going to do. Yeah. Okay, well, anyway, great time with Marcus. So let's see what else occurred during that time between the last show and this. Well, I didn't write it down in the show out. So my probably moat. Remember any of it? So that's about it. Auch kosh updates don't think we have any updates getting very close to releasing the, the order form for the t shirts for those of you who are going to be attending Oshkosh in the off blast that were hosting and the shirts on T spring will be released. We'll put that on the website. Very, very soon. As soon as I have all the details worked out with the bulk order and again, just a reminder for you to see when we're in your neck of the woods or any meet ups planned. Please look at the G community calendar, which can be found by going to airline. Dot com slash calendar. Or you can become a slacker. An AP slacker and hill L will tell us about that at the end of the show. And yes. Do I mention anything about this coming weekend, this coming weekend that we are not is? Yeah. It's a go ahead and stuff. So if you either are or can be in the Washington, DC area specifically gently, where's the. Remembered the specific Smithsonian Burr. Housi- center at Dulles is having their innovations inflate. I think they're still calling that client that Mike is in flight is what they're cutting. And I don't have any information on the time, but I believe it's on Saturday. So he'll be a really sketchy with my details here on Saturday. Really, I'm not attending. However, on Saturday. You can certainly go to these missiles website, Uber hussy center website, and check out all the information there. I'm sure there's plenty of details in our slack page as well as well as on social media sites, Twitter and Facebook regarding that get together. But it's a big event for the airplane, geeks podcast and their communities. And I know main man, Mike, it will be there amongst many others. I'm sure and several members of the community as well. So if you find yourself either in the area or available to check it up, and the before, and it's excellent and the at the end of the whole thing of, there's usually a big day of folks over at red. Robin red, Robin. That's red Robin, which is very close to the advocacy center in chantilly. So there you go. And so if you're if you're in the area or not as stuff mentioning these things called airplanes, that will deliver you to Dulles airport, which is an some people are actually flying their own airplanes. Like Hillel might carols and others. Those are the only two that I can think of right off the top of my head. And so a lot of great aviation geeks and people from the aviation, podcasting community are going to be present. So you should including, of course, the, the great airplane geeks to there you go. Anything else we should talk about before we talk about the coffee fund. Not my neck of the woods. Let's move it on. Johnny smoker. I love coffee. I love tea. Community. Into and the job and me alka because. So what is the poll coffee fund thing? Well, it's your way to support the show financially if you have the resources to do, so as we like to say if you need your money for rent for now, the roof over your head clothing food lying lessons that sort of thing. Please don't send us anything, if this, this is a free show and we do it out of love for lying in aviation. But if you have some extra coin and shackles, or whatever in your pocket, and you want to support us, that'd be great. And you can do that by becoming a coffee fund. Club member coffee Qadri member couple of different ways to do it. Classic fund, and you can become a patron of the show via patriot. Since the last episode, we have some people that use the classic fund method, and they are afraid of Peres, George, Leslie. The day Garcia Ruiz Mark van ram and Ivan Finnegan. So thank you, all for contributing via the pay pal coffee on classic method be like learn more head over to airline pilot guide dot com slash coffee. You'll be glad you did. Stay on the by on huge. All right. Let's start off with the first item in our news folder, and this was something that happened in New York City, literally, the block right next to the building right next to the hotel that we stay in, or I stay in for layovers in Manhattan, at the Sheridan Times Square hotel, and it was the building right next door. There was a well let me read this, this is from the BBC dot com and the no, that's from the second article. I don't know what the first one is anyway. The pilot of a helicopter has died after it crashed crash landed on top of a skyscraper in Manhattan, the helicopter burst into flames on hitting the A X A equitable center that there were no other casualties. The pilot has been identified as Tim McCormack, a veteran aviator an investigation is underway. Eyewitnesses said the building shook with the impact and they were reminded. Of the plane attacks on the city in September two thousand one you may have heard of that, that was a but we call nine eleven or nine months. Nine eleventh, it occurred on Iranian foggy Monday afternoon at seven eighty seven seventh avenue just north of Times Square and it was a twin engine Agusta a one. Oh, nine e- carrying only the pilot had taken off from a heliport on Manhattan's east side. At one thirty two local time it was reportedly heading to Linden airport in New Jersey and eleven minutes later, it plunged into the top of the fifty four story office building in what was described as a forced or emergency landing. So there was another piece of information as they started to do some investigation. And let's see. This is the one from no, I guess the first one was BBC news. This one is from NBC news. Timothy McCormack did not have the required certificate that would have allowed him to legally fly in poor visibility conditions and rely on instruments. We call it an instrument rating. Timothy McCormack did not have the okay, just read that he did not have the required certificate that would have allowed him to fly legally, when the visibility was less than three miles where he could use the instruments on his chopper to guide him through the gloom and rain that invalid Manhattan on Monday, an FAA spokeswoman said this revelation came as National Transportation, Safety board, investigators were trying to pinpoint what caused the deadly helicopter crash in midtown Manhattan. So I'm sure that many of you have seen some of the video from this incident or just prior to crashing in the top of into the top of this building. There was some cell phone video of the helicopter literally diving almost right down, and then recovering from that. Dive before hitting the water or whatever he was flying over. And so this all makes sense. Now when I saw that I'm thinking, was a guy on drugs, or was he drawn Kerr was he just, you know, fooling around what's going on here? But now it makes perfect sense to me when you're in a situation where you're in a wide out condition or you end up in a vertically flying into instrument meteorological conditions. If you're not an instrument rated pilot is very, very easy to get disoriented pretty quickly and it. So now what looks like happened in this video is that he got disoriented and then somehow exited the bottom of this cloud layer, and then was in clear, air, and could see the ground or the water or whatever it was. He was above. And so he realized is situation pulled out of the, the dive. And unfortunately, I guess found himself again in these instrument. Missions if it were me, and I was not instrument rated I was stayed below the clouds and as low to the ground as possible to keep that from happening again. But apparently, he didn't and he ended up getting disoriented againing crash on top of this building, apparently. Which is said. And I mean, there's all kinds of different ways your body, tricky, when you don't have visual input to your eyes to, you know, it seems like it would almost be easy to know if you were remaining upright or if you're turning to one side or another. If you've never had that experience of being disoriented, where you don't have visual input or good visual input, where everything is kind of just blink around, you enduring training, you're really taught to rely on those instruments, because your body's good at tricking you into thinking that, oh, hey, I'm starting to turn here. I need to turn back the other direction. And then you can end up turning and basically spinning yourself all the way down and losing altitude, same thing with pitching up pitching down. Yeah. This is a shame that if out himself in those conditions, and was not able to stay out of them for long enough, not to get disoriented again. I'm sure that those of us who have instrument ratings. Remember, the first time that you were flying with somebody that did have an you did not. And how you could you're swearing that we have to be upside down. I mean this, you know, I remember flying with the, the first air force instructor pilot when I was brand new and basically, my first flight in a in a jet, and I was just thinking that this guy that I'm sitting next to a God, the can't believe that he's able to fly this airplane without crashing it, because I swore I was at least in the ninety degree hundred twenty degree Bank. And of course, we were straighten level. That's what the instrument said. And, you know, a real real instrument flying for those of you out there who are private pilots without instrument ratings. And you've done some maybe some flying under the hood, some kind of device to restrict your your visibility. The of outside, and you're just relying completely on your instrument panel instruments. It's not quite the same thing. Wouldn't you say Steph that sleek? Because so imagine if you're in, you know, so, certainly this days, the video that I've seen from it is pretty pretty murky day. So not even a lot of ambient light, even though is daytime hours, so in year, just under the hood or you have something restricting your visions that you can only see, you know, your instrument panel you're still getting light coming in from that direction, and your by you can still sense that which direction the light is coming from so that gives you some sort of spatial awareness that you really don't have if the if it's low light conditions. Yes. And Liz was asking in the chat room. Is this the same kind of thing that happened with JFK junior and not exactly the same because he was never in the clouds, but it was one of those days where there was not a distinct horizon. So technically it was visual meteorological conditions so he wasn't. Doing anything illegal. But because there wasn't that reference to a horizon in the distance. He completely lost perception of which way was up which way was down. And then he got disoriented that's easy to do. So he was described as an experienced a in a very capable of. Guide been doing a lot of flying. I'm just a bit surprised that he wasn't it. Right. It surely he was had been around long enough to have got a writing if he if he wanted one. Yeah, well apparently the kind of flying that he was doing for that company. He was a he was commercially rated pilot, but he didn't have the instrument rating. And apparently he didn't have to have it as long as he flew in daytime, you know. Yeah. Yeah. Sightseeing tours, and he was an instructor as well from what I recall reading, so. Yeah, I agree with you, Nick. It's a little strange that you would go on to get all those ratings and have that type of job, not have an instrument rating as well. But. His required. And you know it wasn't. Condition whether around new, you can be a bit don't she fish? Oh, yeah. Yeah. So another classic case of somebody that didn't have the qualifications to be flying in those conditions ended up finding themselves there. And sometimes it's a happy ending. And sometimes not Robert in the Tattenham says that instrument ratings are much less common in helicopters. Yeah. I think that would make sense. Yeah. I, I think there are a lot of helicopters, that don't even have the capability of flying in instrument conditions. Right. He also mentions that the helicopter must have autopilot to be instrument approved rain. I'm not sure seeing those pretty nice helicopter that may have had that capability, but I don't know. So. Anyway, so an interesting story, but the, the good news, the bad news, of course. Was that the pilot lost his life? The good news is that nobody else did. Next story. A passenger mistakes an exit door for the toilet on a p. I a Pakistani international airlines flight this from the express Tribune. Authorities say that thirty seven passengers offloaded flight delayed for seven hours, only thirty seven passengers flight delayed for seven hours woman aboard a Pakistan International Airlines flight sparked panic on Saturday, after she mistakenly opened the emergency exit thinking it was the toilet the national flag carriers plane was on the runway at the Manchester airport when she pressed the button opening the emergency exit door. Loops consequently, the aircraft's airbag shoot. In other words, the door side opened and thirty seven passengers had to be offloaded from the aircraft. Let's see the when the woman was asked why she had opened the emergency door. She said that, she thought it was the toilet. Authorities say that the planes, airbag shoot had opened by mistake. I just read that again. They're putting these extra sentences over and over and over again. Of an airplane has a about two in the two. That looks like a kind of looks like a an Airbus to me. But I don't know if that's an Airbus or Boeing, neither do I. Neither do I, I was trying to look to see the markings around the stabilize. Click eighteen Hw, his cuddle tile, bump posses tend to have that tail bumper just scraping. The town. Okay. Triple seven there were thirty seven passengers on this triple set while that's a very light flight. Yes. I, I got a great big damn leva not a button. But so. Two one two. She thought she was. I don't think it was just about neither that, that seems. More to the story. I think that's what journalists could have gotten this wrong. So there is that possibility. Or, you know, people do strange things for all kinds of strange reasons. Give all kinds of strange answers. Such straw thought it was the the door. Yeah. No. You didn't you doing? Something else point crazy. Sorry journalists. The journalist. Sheeting slide down the slide and have appeal. It scared. The Piazza ver was able to get on the slide. Oh man. Well, so much more. We could say about that, but why waste the time exactly. Here's a feel-good story item. See when a group of forty one fifth graders and their chaperones on their way to a school trip had their flights canceled at Oklahoma city's will Rogers world airport. Delta Airlines gate, agents stepped into save the day, the students were traveling from Tulsa to Richmond Virginia for a school trip to Washington DC, that had been in the works for almost a year when they were notified by Fort Worth based American Airlines that their flight was cancelled and there were no alternative flights available. According to ABC affiliate, K, O, C, O news. I wonder if they pronounce that cocoa I would again, this is from the Dallas news dot com last week after being stranded verse six and a half hours. The students were finally able to visit the nation's capital American offered the group of refund and chaperones for the students were disappointed. They were unable to make other travel arrangements through the airline that's when to Delta Airlines gate agents, who witnessed the event when to work. The employees contacted Delta's headquarters in Atlanta, and imagine managed to fly one of the airline's, spare aircraft to Oklahoma City just to take the more than three dozen students to Richmond. This is a quote from kera horn, one of the agents in Oklahoma City who helped the group we were so thrilled to have been able to make such a difference in the days of each and every one of these kids, it was absolutely amazing. This is from one of the chaperones. It was absolutely amazing. Delta corporate came in and just said, we'll just give you the whole plane. Not good. They didn't actually give them the whole plan. They they, but they. That was would be very generous airplane. Take care of it. Yes. Treat it well then you'll have to put the your own fuel in it to make the flight now. So obviously delta found an opportunity for some great positive PR, and they had an airplane, which was not a cheap thing to do. And they ended up picking up those kids got them to their destination. And I'm sure that, that did not make American Airlines very happy. But. Like we do that. Sometimes, you know, the man, not had an extra having the right resources in the right place at the right time. And. I'm just curious would acne. Add lines have done the same now. Probably not. We don't have those resources, Nick. I mean it's really just the coffee fund keep it going. Will we don't have any airplanes, actually? But if we had some virtual spare airplanes, we would have done that. Yes. We would've virtually flown them. Yes. And. The real thing. Yes. And everybody would have been virtually happy. Tulsa, Tulsa knocking way. Maybe you're right. Maybe no, you're right. You're correct. Whatever. Yeah. They were somewhere. There is someone on. One of those acme the right run at us. It was Oklahoma City because remember reading the will Rogers airport. So, yeah, that's it. Good point. That was Tim that said, then, by the way, where is well roaches world. I wanna get visit it's in nearby. Oklahoma City I what is a will Rogers wild. Well, there's will Rogers in this was his world. Yeah. Airport. They made his well too. It was a small world. Okay. Yeah. All right. Moving on. This is an interesting occurrence that just happened a couple of days ago Collins aerospace is coordinating with safety regulators and its equipment clients, after a GPS connection outage on its parts resulted in the cancellation of hundreds of flights especially flights on aircraft operated by US regional carriers. The US Federal Aviation Administration had few date details to share about the groundings on eight and nine June, primarily caused by the Collins aerospace, GPS dash four thousand s sensor, that connects aircraft with GPS satellites affected carriers do not expect more delays or cancellations related to the problem as they await for answers from Collins, in the FAA Collins, spokeswoman says the company identified a technical issue with more with one or more of its GPS products impacting availability to connect to the network on ten June. The company says it determined the route. Cause and the resolution this is flight from flight goat global dot com. We are engaging with our customers to ensure continued safe operational capability. She adds the FAA on ten June says carriers in both Europe and North America reported the GPS problem to the agency. The carriers did not divert flights to the anomaly, published an air traffic advisory on nine June ordering aircraft receiving GPS connective failure to coordinate with the FAA before departing for work into determine that we are working to determine the cause of the problem, which may have resulted from a software update to the aircraft, navigation systems. The FAA says it a statement, the FAA tracks flights on radar in addition to using satellite technology. So airborne aircraft are under continuous surveillance by air traffic control. The Marty says it's coordinating with Collins after a large portion of it. C R J series aircraft was affected by the GPS connective failure on its regional aircraft carrying Collins navigate. Gatien parts. We are assessing the situation and our focuses insuring impact on our customers is as limited as possible. They say so. Apparently, I believe it was dispatcher? Mike was saying something that they think that there is something about the some kind of a table, some kind of an almanac or something that the GPS use the GPS system uses and that it was out of date, and they were they needed to upload a new version of the almanac, but they were not planning on to doing that, until, like Saturday. So sorry if you have these systems that rely on this accurate information from the saddle satellite Ray, which I thought was interesting. It was either the US coastguard, or the US air force that was responsible for maintaining the almanac. Whatever that is in relation to the GPS satellite. Arrays. Apparently the cheap. Yes updates at this time of the year on it moves a leap, second to keep in time with the fact that the us rate of rotation changes so every two and a half years, they have to whip a second away from us, and they the new almanac spice being place and it wasn't. So it's amazing how one second of era can make such a difference. It's amazing that it only affected that on that particular companies version of the GPS receivers in because I think most of acme a main line was not affected at all. It was only mostly these bombarded as CR, j that were mostly effect. These airplanes have feels and DNA they do they do. I mean I, I know other apple in the states nowadays, that doing a white with. Conventional as citizens styles and relying entirely on GPS approaches at night. I don't think so. Although I have found myself in a couple of situations where the, the runways that we needed to use because of like extreme winds situations were only using are an Naveh approaches, GPS approaches, and the, the, the equipment that I was flying at the time didn't have that capability and so, you know, I can see that. There are some limited circumstances where that could affect your capabilities. But yeah, I it may have been one of those things that nobody really knew what to do at the point where this occurred in finally, the maybe somebody said, you know, we can fly, these things the al-tash way with the awards and courses. And that kind of thing we're all supposed to know how to do that, right? Yeah. Kind of what I was getting at all. No. Wrong on some of this, because I've been kind of just in this. Black hole of my own work recently. But I thought there was something else going on with those particular especially the Sierra where even though they do have the capability to fly those approaches, it's still runs through the same system, somehow airplane. So everything was kind of affected or they're very limited in what they could actually use for various types of. Intentionally being a little vague there, because I think that was something that I may or may not have read somewhere on the internet. Which is always correct. Yeah. That's always if it's on the internet's if someone someone is was flying one of those affected aircraft. And you would like to leave us some feedback about what you were were not able to do that stuff that might be flying that airplane. There you go. I have a feeling he was affected. And I think he is opposed to go fly tomorrow on a trip. And he's said it's going to be very pleasant. And he's free sending feedback him when he gets to spend. More about him. I think you might be right stuff that, that somehow and Meyer playing the aren't ABC GPS related stuff is kind of separate from the same. It's not a big name software system, or display system, or whatever. So, like I said, I'd I'm not up on all the specifics of that, because I certainly don't have experience with those particular their Crafter units. But. Someone will vote for us. Yes, somebody. I'm sure several will. So that was an interesting little occurrence that happened just a couple of days ago. But it just shows you rather than in days when you used to get a navigation system outage. It would affect one Ampato one area. Now, GPS can aground a, you know, a great number of that cropped old at once is just amazing, the impact had all of the states, and in Europe and you go she will so dependent becoming cited dependent on these systems that have if they fold ova then the whole thing seems to be grinding all Domino's good. That's when the F A announces all these shutdowns of all these ground based navigational aids, and I know they're expensive to maintain but I'm thinking gab that those satellites that are orbiting the earth, or in geostationary orbit or whatever, if something like this a little hiccup occurs than it. Just shuts down everything. Now there are multiple, you know, the GPS satellite Ray is one of the what one of four global. One, the GM. The America militry that the three I know this another one. I saw a graphic, and I think there was like three or four of these things listed. So it's not like you know that if one goes down that they're all gonna go down. But still, I think that's putting all our eggs in one basket, which is the idea and six Iraq, especially for this modern world that relies so much upon you know, aviation to get people around the world. So not only Asian, you know, just go back to dead reckoning. What's really sad? Is that how many people don't know how to read a map of no terrifying, actually? Yeah. I mean it would it would really just. The whole world would come to, to a screeching halt. I think that if we didn't have Archie PS systems. People go go figure out how to read a map and just have. Yeah. Pay attention to where you're going in the street names and stuff done that then have to stop show so you can fix yourself on the map. Well that I can't do so. Maybe not quite that old. Hash has take saves the DB's. We used to fly the seven twenty sevens from Miami, Fort Lauderdale, Palm Beach to New York Boston and all the places up out over the water. You know, the Atlantic Ocean there, where it kinda curves in the Atlantic coastline. And just using and e bees. It was kind of a joke. Really? I couldn't really lead doing. Luckily, there was radar coverage, so it'd go. Yeah. Wandered way. So, yeah. What's your headache? Showing you a little bit. Of course there fi this heading for a while. Okay. Was just like a little little arrow pointing like the top or bottom of the case, and you're making these adjustments to keep it in the general area to be much different than today's very precise. Yeah. Yeah. I remember doing end EP approaches. Numb precision approaches and you're supposed to keep within five degrees. You know of prime Changle Costa needles just drifting around and it's going light, plus minus ten degrees that how do you keep five degrees? But the needle is just drifted around line that push the head drag the tail. Right. Yeah. But I mean, you'd be straightened Evelyn the needle to just be swinging, especially when he got close to it. Yeah, it was being blamed mother wind. Oh, those are the days. All right. Moving onto our last time in the news folder, which is now we've talked about this company, Paul Allen, one of the co founders of, Microsoft, he came up with this great idea. He was a v- aviation enthusiast and a dreamer for something called straddle on, and it was gonna be a sound like Italian is going to be ah a system where they would use an airplane to launch rockets. So. I guess that's people were saying that's a more efficient way to launch a rocket, because it doesn't have to use all that energy and propulsion to get the thing going off the ground. You're already at way up in the air, and then you launch the thing and, and whatever. So they came up with this airplane design and we've talked about it before. And it honestly to be looks like some kind of prehistoric creature with the six jet engines, and basically, the cockpit areas of, I think, two two seven forty seven cockpits they used or something to come up with this. I dunno. It's a very strange looking airplane actually two separate, fuselage's joined together by a center wing section, and then the left and right wings, and the left and right wings, have three engines apiece, and it looks like it has, I don't know how many force for eight twelve helped me twenty four twenty four main gear tires. On each said. Yeah. And looks like about four or eight nose wheel tires. Anyway, it's a very strange looking contraption. It made its first we talked about on the show just a couple of months ago, it made its maiden flight. And there are some video out there of it, lumbering along and made a couple of low passes. And finally landed I was kinda surprised actually that they made the made him flight because before the maiden flight Paul Allen. The guy that put an all this money to create straddle on died. And I think I mentioned on the show, if not, I mentioned, it to other people that I would be surprised at this whole project kept going because he's gone now and he was the visionary for this. And sure enough looks like the board of directors for the company, and in particular his sister, Jo Jody, Allen, basically, put. The KYW botch on the project. Yeah. And they are abandoning their efforts now to build. Oh, they said that it was kind of telling late last year after Paul had died. Jody Allen basically abandoned efforts to build a series of rockets to be launched from the large carrier plane. And so if just took a little bit of time before they finally said, yeah, no, we're not going to do this anymore. So we're not gonna see this big ole huge strange looking airplane anymore. Apparently, it's a shame make it could have apparently, it would have taken off with one million two hundred thousand pounds of weight, which is a five hundred and forty tones, a metric tonnes pretty impressive pace kit could've carried something the size of sentence. Five really? That's amazing. When you think about the. Yeah. So, yeah, I think it's sad because I thought that was pretty a pretty cool concept, it was very neat to see such a huge airplane. Lumbering down the runway and coming in for landing and. I don't know. Maybe somebody else will out out there will say you know what that, that was a good idea. And hopefully they won't scrap the airplane and make it into beer cans or something. Oh, okay. I misread apparently the wingspan was about the length of sentence. Five rocket would carry us at in five rocket which is shine Cassatt sounded pretty impressive Depp very impressive. These weird comparison say it's how as long as the Hindenburg as ship. Well, how many people? How long? What the heck is a Hindenburg airship. I'm really what I think the wingspan was more than a football field, right? Or maybe a couple eight hundred ninety five eight. There you go. Three hundred feet for a American gridiron football field. So, yeah. In relatable terms. Yeah. Soccer. It was going to carry the Pegasus rockets, and it could carry multiple Pegase Pegasus excel rockets, extra-large visually. Very interesting. But wouldn't you agree? That is a very strange looking airplanes. Especially the way that kind of slopes down from where the wing root is down. They just found various bits of airplane, that might work and bolted them together. Yeah. Exactly. But I mean there other projects which much more conventional. So this a sorry, I some forty seven out with a modified wing that will be able to carry a rocket up, for example. And that's that's why virgin effort. Yeah. Yes. It is. Yes. Yeah. Interesting. Okay. Well, that's about it for the news. So, I think now it's about time for us to move onto one of the best parts, the show, which is, of course, your great feedback. Incoming message. So last show, we played some audio that mica recorded he interviewed Mark rub off, which is or who is a member of our ABC community. And he's also into technology in a big way, especially artificial intelligence. And I thought we go ahead and play the remainder of the interview. And I believe that's about six and a half minutes worth of the rest of this audio. So let me cue that up. It's just amazing. And it's mind boggling really mind boggling. Just as we don't necessarily know right down to the blue plants in the architecture. How the human mind works, right? We don't always know how the neural networks, the artificial intelligence programs come up with their predictions. We just dribble to test those predictions, and we can verify their accuracy. This gets to a really interesting point about not, not just artificial intelligence like this. Not just artificial intelligence for maintenance artificial intelligence for flying an airplane or driving a car. Right. So we know that lots of companies right now are working on the self driving car Tesla's, working on a Google's working on Ford's working on it, right? Uber. Right is working on it. And a big piece of making these cars drive themselves is artificial intelligence. Right. You have to have a system, essentially taking all of the sensor data that those cameras are creating that those radar systems are creating that the light art systems are creating those are car census. Like our human senses. Right. So you need you need a system that can interpret all that information in real time and then make a decision do I speed up. Do I slow down? Right. Is there a ball that just came out on the road is our deer that just came out on the road or moose main at to swerve out of the way? Right. And the technology to do that exists. A problem in aerospace, and I'll, I'll mention it's actually much easier to create an AI driven airplane than it is to create an AI driven car because third dimension of air travel threes, a lot of the constraints that you have in making a self driving car in unpredictable dynamic environment. But any case, you can you can create a self-driving airplane today, based on artificial intelligence, lots of Aren d- work in that space, a lot of academic work in that space just doing it on things like flight simulator. John jr. Is how do you certify in a software system that sits in the cockpit because, as we know aviation is a highly regulated industry, and because it's highly regulated, you just can't throw in systems and software willy nilly. Right. We live on that from the seven thirty seven mex- indeed. So, yeah, a big part of. The certification process in, in avionic software is looking at each line of code in the software and verifying that the code does what you intended to do. Well. You don't have code in system. You have a system that does some action based on its self learning of data you feed it, and you can't verify. The path took from interpreting that data to creating the execution algorithms, that it uses suffi- the airplane. That's why we sometimes in the air, I feel call a is a block FOX. Technically we call it non deterministic software. So do you certify non terminus dick software? That's a major question that I'm working on in the industry. So, yeah, I think. Good answer to that question is, how do you certify a human pilot? You take that pilot on check ride, right? We take a pilot of check ride. Are you worring up his brain with diodes and taking scams of the neurons firing his brain? Make sure that the firing in the correct manner force not right. You've trained pilot on procedure, and in a check ride. You're observing that the pilot executes procedure correctly. And if you're she doesn't, and more training until you can retake the check ride. I think that's how we're going to certify artificial intelligence systems. Right. You're going to train them, and then you're going to test them, and the really neat thing about a I is, you can have an AI system, take a thousand check rides each and every time. It gets ready to take a flight have taken thousand simulated check rides passes. Those check rides and can do it with right? Compute power instantaneously. Right. You have the same level of proof that the IS system knows how to find the plane as you do the human pilot. This is, of course that you have an AI system that can react. And when required react creatively to oh, host of unforeseen situations. So question is, if you train an AI system to fly airplane on procedure, and you recreate the situation that led to the miracle on the Hudson, will the system figure out that they can land the plane in the Hudson river? And that's a question that. We're working to answer in the industry today. I actually am pretty optimistic that with the right training systems, right simulations, you can see a I perform creatively and handle the type of. Scenarios that make people worried about computer, airplane, Mark at sense, just fascinating, and I'm amazed and I think we could probably talk all night about this, frankly, really liked to. But it's as AP G, and they already go three and a half hours of show. So thank you so much for meeting me here. And it's so great to meet you. And I hope you have a great trip back in your based in LA flying back tomorrow. Yep. Based in LA flying back tomorrow evening after another workday in Boston. Have a great flight. And thanks again, for the airline pilot gay here in wells, Maine, at the main diner, this is your main man Mike and we're signing off. Thank you very much, main, man mica, lots of Maine stuff going on their main lining, right there. So what do you think this artificial intelligence? I think it's got a long way to go before it has any capability, that's even close to what the human brain is capable of. You see these rights, that a special to be a pound by and the they say, well, all right. Can navigate round this coal here, and it can recognize simple objects, etc. When you compare even that. And then very good at doing that with the complexity of the environment, the we walk in Jeff. I think yeah, I'm going to be well, dead and buried before it, even gets pasta experimental stage. But interesting, I was reading an article about robotics, and artificial intelligence in such, and one of the chief, engineers. I'm not sure exactly what her title is she worked at I robot. And now she's with this new company. Again, I forget the name of the company, but she was being interviewed, and she was talking about artificial intelligence and such a night. And I took this little soundbite from this little video that I was watching. This is not completely edited. So I'll do that in post, but let me just play this and it's, it's very telling I think regarding this whole thing again. Good. Now. Okay, Clark is the co founder, vice president of engineering at bay or robotics. She got her start in the field working for I robot the maker of the roomba. One thing I learned in twenty years of building robots is that people are amazing. The more you try to automate things. The more you realize that there are so many things that people do naturally without even thinking about it, that are difficult or impossible automate, so, with that means is that when you want to build manufacturing applications that are, especially that are flexible and quick to create and change that human interaction is a really critical part of that. You can't actually pay off the cost of full automation over the lifetime of a product. So there you go. Plea didn't work. So again, this doesn't have anything to do with, you know piloting airplanes. And that kind of thing, but it does talk about the Tien the creative aspects of coming up with a new way of doing something. And the, the fact that the, the human mind is, is so capable of doing so much that we don't even realize what it's doing going back, more to the kind of the first part that they would that'd be played less show. They're automating or at least using. Purdue ways to figure out when something that's going to reach the end of its useful life. So even like the seat that you're sitting in on the aircraft. I think that's a great use for, for this technology. You have data. You can build those models on, I still don't think it, it can't be the end all be all if you see something that's more now before its time. Don't just ignore. No. Oh. Well, you know, the, the computer system will tell us when it's time to replace this anyway. So I think you, you can certainly use all kinds of artificial intelligence and artificial predictive modeling systems to augment. What people are doing with their human intelligence. I mean, there's some things that this just is perfect foreign and superior in doing. And then there are other things that I don't think that a an artificial intelligence robot or whatever you wanna call it can do can't match. What? Our human brains can can, too. I don't think it can replace that. Honestly. So as long as, as long as we're developing all that, let's not lose our human intelligence the same time. It's not a excuse to stop. Are you talking? Hey, maybe time to bring in the AP G robots and get control of the show. You know. You know, another twelve months, we'll just. It'll be so much easier to do the show won't it just show up in like press a button. And I'll just that's all you all you do. Now travel is list. It will be a is is. Well, yeah. All. I mean. Isn't that the dystopia in future? Worries about robots taking over everything. It was one of those click bait kind of headlines that I ended up stumbling upon that little bit about robotics and artificial intelligence. I think the, the headline was robots have to be put in cages to protect the humans. And so it made you think that we gotta put the robots in cages, so that they don't go out of control and take over the world. Well, actually said, no. They're, they're bolted down the cages. Are there actually to protect him ins from accidents getting into the way of these robots? You know, these big arm swing around and doing all these mechanical actions. So I thought, yeah, I, I was a sucker. I daren't thinking, yeah, they're taking over the world. So anyway, so thanks again, mica, and Mark for that, that was a very stimulating conversation. I think. All right item, number two from Tim. He's in the chat room. I think it was really cool. New listener here really enjoying the show. I always wanted to be a pilot, but due to financial restraints in my younger days pursued a career in public education. Instead, I was not able to start flight training until three years ago at age forty five at that point, my only intent was to fly for fun. The idea of being a professional pilot was absolutely nowhere on my radar. Then I found out about the current state of affairs in the airline industry shortly after getting my private certificate and late twenty sixteen. I spent the next seven months, getting my instrument rating commercial certificate CFI NC double on. I quit my job as a high school assistant principal and started teaching flight lessons. Fulltime fast forward to today, and I am now in the midst of training for my new job at a regional airline. Great news. Yes. All right. So even as I type all this, I still have to pinch myself to make sure it's real. I am truly a blessed. Man. I'm not sure if you or your listeners would be interested in hearing any of my story, but just in case here are the limited topics on might be able to intelligently contribute to one midlife crisis, or I mean career change to owning an airplane that pays for itself, all of your flight training, and more income on top of that, number three, building time as a CF I for how hard it is to get a regional job. And choose the right company, five training for your first one Twenty-one job. He means a part, one Twenty-one airline flying type of job. And it's really like drinking from a fire hose, hint, or no. Is it really like drinking from a fire hose hint? No, it's more like getting run over by a fire truck. Wow. That's worse. Painful very painful and potentially career ending. Yes. The couple of random coincidences from a recent episode. I'm a musician. I used to be in the middle a middle school band. Folks, gives me let me read that again. I'm a musician used to be a middle school band director and one of my training classmates lives in London, Kentucky. That is a coincidence, because we're going to be passing London. Kentucky on our way up from Atlanta to Dayton next month. Keep making these great podcasts really enjoying listening. I also plan to check out a live recording. Apparently, he did according to Steph and joined the chat room soon. Cheers, Tim lake so. And they're in the chat room says shouldn't you be studying wasting time with this rubbish? Is tomorrow. Yeah. By now. You don't know if I now today's the day to relax and just. And, and just drink. So, so, yes. So is, is pip saying being self deprecating calling himself rubbish. No, he's referring to us. We are the rubbish tried to turn that. But it didn't work. Nice try good to see you, Tim. Great. Thank you for your great feedback. Thank you for being in the chat room with us and yeah, maybe. Yeah. Very, very good luck for you tomorrow. I'm sure you won't have a problem at all. That's awesome. Free drinks at the hotel in one hour. He says. Well, I don't know. I'm gonna make it in an hour. Well, the, the person to give the free drinks to the Blake disconnect to your check, right. Yes. So maybe when we're stopping through in London. No, he said it was a friend of his never mind, that's not where he is. Whereas Tim right now. I don't know. Anyway. Good luck, Tim. Three Swedish Mustaf. Hey guys, this article I thought it might interest, you from USA today, and the title of the article is on, autopilot, quote pilots are losing their basic flying skills. Some fear after Boeing seven thirty seven max crashes. And I'm not gonna read the article here will put this in the show notes that basically, there are talking about the, the whole seven thirty seven issue in the fact that there are presented within with a real problem and they had to use their their skills and their intuitions. And they're, they're human thought processes to get themselves out of it, and keep the airplanes from crashing. And this article kind of examines that, and whether you know, was this, obviously, clearly, this was some kind of a problem caused by a faulty system. There's no there's no arguing that. And we can talk. About all the problems with Boeing in the F A A and how the whole thing was certified. And the fact that cruise weren't trained on the system and what it does and not only that they weren't even told about it initially, but something that this article raises that I've been taking about ever since I heard these, these crashes is that, you know, as pilots shouldn't we have the capability to, to analyze situations, and I remember this from, I don't you've probably do as well, Nick through your military training, and probably people out there with non military training were taught this as well. When you have a situation, you maintain aircraft control analyze the situation take the appropriate action, and then we always added Landis ins conditions permit. So when you have abnormally emergency situation, the first thing you do always. Maintained aircraft control and then analyze what you have, and was that possibly a problem in these two crashes. Yes, there was a bad system. It got them into a really really bad place. But did they do the best job, they could to maintain aircraft control and analyze a situation and I would argue that the answer may be no? So again, and we've talked about it a lot on the show ever since I started podcasting in two thousand nine so almost ten years now that we are concerned I am concerned. Many of us are concerned the NTSB is concerned that pilots are losing their skills their basic fundamental flying skills. And this is something that we really have to pay attention to. Sadly has been a situation that's been growing since the nineteen fifties. When Audubon starting started becoming prevalent enact crow. There's nothing new using old upon. It's for the great majority of flight, it's being going on increasing, and now or actually obliged, many cases to use all the pundits because the space has become so crowded. And the separation so small that would not let end set spaces without an old, I pilot engaged and not just on bowl, but using it, and yeah, it my father used to complain about exactly the same thing. He said we did long hope flying. We see what upon it for as an is. And then we just practice at hand flying on the approach a ham playing on the takeoff and nothing has changed from the seventies when he was flying. So. In it if anything it's, it's getting worse, as systems become more complicated was a bit simpler when he had a back that what that many things that guy wrong. But nowadays, things can be mosques by systems that to help us that, you know, might actually induce a problem that went out aware of and requires a lot of a great deal of technical knowledge to what you around and workout, what is going wrong? And. Shoot. Just lost my train of thought. It's just it's it's chugging off into the distance. But o of great concern to me is that and I know somebody personally, many of us know this person who is part of our ABC community, who's going through a program now and Indianapolis, it's regional airline has come up with something called lift, which is a program to bring people in with very little flying experience, just, you know, basic ratings and some I start without any ratings at all. And to kind of train them to a level where the they'll have the experience necessary and build up the time necessary to get on with a regional airline, and then, of course, you know, rapidly get more experience more knowledge of flying, and then eventually get on with a major, but this person was telling me, and I was asking him, and I met him several times when I've had layovers Indianapolis and I said, well, you know, how much, you know, he's talking about the, the program, and I said, how much manual flying or do they mean? Empha-. Cise manual flying skills at on said, actually they discourage manual flight and that almost everything they do is completely with the automation. And I said, did you ask them? Do you think that's a good idea? He said, no. I don't think it's a good idea. And I have you asked them why and he said, because this is the way they do it in the airlines. Whether going to train them. I know but most airlines out there, sadly, Nick, that is the case, I know we know some folks who have quite a bit of flying experience who work for airlines that already have these could type program sore seeing these folks come in with, you know, not a whole lot of hours after going through some of these. Avenue programs more or less, and they've been more or less very impressed with equality of pilots that are coming up through these programs. So I don't know. I think there's I think there's but what, what different factors. They're oppressed with what kind of qualities, and the and that's, that's a good question. But, I mean just knowing the procedures and knowing procedures the aircraft will because they've trained them specifically to that aircraft and for the company's procedures and standard operating procedures. But how well do they know the just the fundamentals of things in the basics of systems, and how they operate when they find themselves in a situation where system is not working the way supposed to work, and they don't have time to pull out the cure, h or look at the system to lead them through all the stuff they need to do to resolve the situation? Sometimes you have to throw all that out the window and just do what you think is necessary to do to say. Everybody's life on an airplane, and, you know, how do you how do you. I don't know. And I think there's different levels of supervision, that happens for these, these pilots when they come out of their training in terms of what types of captains fly with or other personnel on the flight deck. So I don't know. I I I'm not I'm not saying I don't agree with your point here because I do one hundred percent. Saying, I haven't been to these programs. So I don't know how much is emphasized in those areas like to think that they are. But I think one is probably a little bit different. Yeah. I think we're all agreeing same thing, and I have heard the same things you've heard as well stay, I'm just wondering, you know, really how how prepared to these people to, to handle a situation that presents itself that they've never seen before. And, and Rick bell, major bell. They're in the chat room is basically really hit the nail on the head. You know, there's one thing there are certain skills to have to be a professional airline pilot, but there are other things many, many more things involved in, in good airmanship. And it's you know, the other I'm just throwing out all the. Not perceive, negatives, Buddhists, different arguments, people give for different routes of training help people come up through their their flying careers. And I know a lot of folks argue that. Sitting rates heat, as CFI beating up the pattern with primary flight training, students might not be the best training either forgetting to the airline world. I don't know. I still think that involves an awful lot of having to pay attention to what's going on with the aircraft itself, and being aware of different flight characteristics and potential for for failures. And, you know knowing what the person next to you is doing while, they're handling the aircraft and some people like Steven Ivy and others part of the community. They're out there flying survey kind of stuff will say, you know, some people say, well, how in the world could that possibly relate to transfer to flying airliners with a hundred and fifty three hundred passengers on board. I would argue that I think it's great training because most of these this kind of flying involves hand flying the airplane and precision flying hand flying the airplane, and you. It's just a matter of becoming one with the airplane and developing your airmanship, and in your very likely to be in a situation every now and then that is not normal in an emergency situation. And usually you're the only one on the airplane. So it's up to you. You know, the buck stops with you, and you need to handle the emergency and keep yourself alive. And so I, I think that kind of flying is, is good. Experience to have. I mean just breaking those basic skills flying airplanes. Now, you know how does it relate? In a crew concept kind of setting. Well, that's something you have to learn after you've had those basic skills. I think I think no matter which way you come up through your pilot training, there's going to be something that you're going to have to. Learn more about refine change potentially a little bit compared to the previous lying that you've done. It's all about being adaptable, and being professional and taking the time to want to learn those skills to apologize to, to major bell and others that have experience in the military. When I mentioned, the maintain aircraft control analyze the situation take the appropriate action Atlanta soon as conditions permit is the standard saying something we call stand up in pilot training. And I'm, I'm sure it's probably the same kind of thing for you as well. Neck, we would have a situation, we'd have a briefing in the morning or the afternoon, depending on where whether we're doing the early morning routine or the late in afternoon and evening routine. Where that it was called stand up and everybody in your class was in this room in your at your table with your other fellow students, and your instructor pilot at your table, and somebody would go up the front, and with would present. Situation. Okay. You're up here in the air, and you're flying along and flight and all of a sudden, you lose the right engine, and blah, blah, blah, blah, and then all of a sudden Lieutenant Nielsen, but would you do? I can't remember exactly what they said, you'd have to stand up from where you're standing or sitting and attention. And he's sir. I'd maintain aircraft control analyze the situation take the appropriate action in land as soon as conditions permit. And then you take your little kneeboard checklist and you start looking for this particular emergency, and you're reading the checklists and everybody is looking at you and they're all feeling like oh, thank God, they didn't. They didn't call on me to do this. It's truly high pressure situation and you're being judged by everybody, and you're being graded, and it's just a it's a very stressful situation. So I'm sorry, wreck that I brought back those memories. But it's hammered into you every single day that you're on the flight line, you know, maintain aircra-. Control analyze a situation Tapie appropriate action and land as soon as conditions permit. And you know that you can apply this to other aspects of your life, you know, maintain life control, analyze the situation take the appropriate, you just described my Wednesday. Really maintain personal control, and don't. Lose your cool. Yell at people naked, you have that kind of setup when you were doing your initial flight training. No. You didn't. You guys didn't do that. Now we used to have an image today. And I guess that they have some questions around. But now we went never that cruel to us. It was it was tough. It was it built character. That's for sure. Right, rick. And he says, maybe we should bring stand up to one Twenty-one training. Similar. Trauma, surgery or serotonin. Very stressful situation and say doctors you're getting on the spot. Even if you're not in the stressful situation, you're just on rounds. Let's like young could be on the spot at any point in time that it is also brutal. Wow. So you'll learn fast. Well, so I'll wrap this up. Thank you, Swedish Gustaf for, for sending us the link to this article, and there's so much more to be said about this whole topic. And I'm sure that this is not the last time you're gonna hear about it on the show. And police something will be done in the future to make sure that we don't lose these basic skills. And speaking of being put on the spot, I think we need to put somebody. On the spot. From his studio near the concord covered bridge and Smyrna, Georgia. It's barbecue master motorcycle, rider, pontoon, boat, skipper, underwater, photographer, and captain, for a major US legacy carrier, captain Dana. Hello. Only made it. We are to look at that he's in his uniform with the four stripes, and it looks good on you, man. The Fischl didn't bother to get changed at this came straight to the podcast. We're glad I was listening to you guys on the way on the drive in in. I would have to say one thing, it would be a far better show. If the atom fischel telling took over because of be far more, intellectual and smart. Informative improbably more accurate probably is show intelligence. It's not the real intention, artificial entertainment. If you ask me, they're already getting artificial entertainment. That's true. They want the real thing with all the with all the artificially intelligent entertainment, yet. Why wouldn't they all they wanted to real thing. Yeah, that's why the love you. Yes. That's why. Well, you're part of those guys. So thank you. Yes. So. So how, how are you? I'm doing great just finish. The four day trip we got in about fifteen eighteen minutes early, of course, in the last row, the airplane, that's beginning to sent into Atlanta when, when I get a day in the flight deck in. It's the fighting, yes. Somebody named to research buying them back here. She says she knows you. I said. I can happen to, to. And yes, she said, she recognized voice was wondering if you could save behind the say Hello. When you get off, well, actually, I do say goodbye. All my passengers and I don't leave the plane without one of the pilots on it. So I in no, no problem whatsoever. My first officer had to run kitchen commute home to New Orleans anyways. So I spent a few minutes, Saint Hello to t she does occasionally, actually tune in show she does work for the same company that you and I work for Jeff. I'm so is very nice and. I was my lake so I try to show off a little bit. Didn't do so well, but. A little bit windy day, but it worked out had interesting for daytrip and couple real fun challenges. And on this day trip, my first officer he is a f eighteen active f eighteen flyer for the US navy. And he got hired three three and a half years ago roughly in, then once he finishes, L E pretty much went out on mill leave because just like the lines militaries having shortages pilot. So they requested that he come back. So he came back, then he was out two years mind. You just finished. Oh E ON the mad dog came back after two years in the Aden. Five days of training. First day was in, in no, no Nowa systems. Fresher, other than that he had do. His own take his electric version of the test when he got back, then they gave him four days of Simms through into in swim into a check ride. And then three days of the mind, you, he never solidified what he had learned. When is here. I fast forward two years now. He's got you know you actually had him on probation. I had to review on them. So he was he was having a bit of trouble. He flies, very well as a fantastic attitude, but I ended up giving him couple my legs just get a whole lot more comfortable on a help them out in taught him. Some of the ins and outs of the avenue than the IS and ver- speed in how to use flight guidance, control panel, and even on my leg coming in here. I you know, help them with some some more. So if eels a whole up better than it for stats. That was a challenging four day trip for me in that regard. And I hit something else happened. I see we're gonna say some Jeff I know I was gonna say. Your your skills as an instructor certified instructor really came in handy there. And. Yeah. That and my previous experience on this aircraft and on the aircraft so well is a ground school instruct to in on those systems. So so well it was in enabled me really to put him in a situation. You know, there's some guys you know, listen not not everybody's like Jeff really nice most guys like me really not didn't know where you're going there. Thank you. You know, you get all types when you flying in certainly, you know, some guys would eat his lunch. And you know for the first leg I was with him. You know, you, you kinda query me of the, this guy tells me do this in this looked at, you know, you can have to be good chameleon, but just because one guy wants you do it one way. It's not necessarily the right way in one of them. Was that one pack on the ninety in? I know why guys do this. But one pack on the ninety is HP off the other one HP, you know in the high pressure position which it doesn't really matter if we get a little bit more airflow in the cotton. I get it. But the gnome operations is, is in a position h people enough. Right. Right. So we don't have that fan making all that noise. In the MD ninety, I said, you know, these these secrecy of different potty, guys, you just have to be community so but he had such a great attitude. I just I wanted to really go way above and beyond health, not, we had great trip in that. Yet. The real interesting thing happen. Was we had a repetitive Emile minimum Queant lists to book that we on the airplane. I that may not be familiar with EMI L is I'm sure if you're avid, listen of the show you note that is, but basically, it's a list of acquitted on the aircraft that we can go hit and dispatch. She airplane, that may be missing or inoperative, and the EMI L that has repetitive check EMI L, and it was on the elevator. Jet yesterday. Oh, you had that yet. Did they do it properly? Then yeah, you hope. What's interesting about it is, you know, they have two different procedures. Exactly. And so I know it's the same jet so ninety and had the there's a an NCAA shin that comes on to let us know because there's no indication for us what are control. Surfaces are doing. And one of the cheques, we do is or what the first officer does is he checks the tops. And so you turns the ailerons looking for any mining controls, and that kind of thing and looking for the spoilers deployed after a certain point when you're turning the control column to the left into the right. And then when you go forward him back, your look for an NCAA shin that says that the elevator as is at its limit. So you know that it's reached those full control limits. And if you don't see that will that's not normal. And then you have to do one of these two procedures Dana talking about here. And so when I got to the airplane early. Yesterday morning, I started looking at the minimum Queant lists procedures on how to do this, and there are very involved in one of the procedure one you go into the, the MC DU the s. Yeah. FM system and you into the maintenance area of the thing and you go through, I think he had to press forward forty five times or something like that to get to the left elevator sensor in the right elevator sensor, and then I found out, I don't know if you did that procedure or not. But the left side censor is not giving you any good information, and that's probably why the light is not working. So you have to really do the second procedure, and then involve somebody going outside and looking at the angle of the elevator based on what we what you're doing with the flight controls and something ridiculous like you're looking at something in relation to some kind of a little nut on the vertical stabiliser, and it has to be ten. Ten and twenty one thirty seconds of an inch correct. And I'm thinking, well, how do you tell what ten and twenty one thirty seconds is when you're standing on the ground, and the elevators up, there, thirty feet or whatever you can't? And that's, that's the whole point of where I was going with this. Yes, we had the exact same problem in Cleveland with a contract, maintenance person contract guy in Houston that did it. And so the funny part was is he's running through the first procedure hydraulics on. And look, that's it. Well, it's never gonna work the hydraulics on the on the ninety you'll never gonna get it to move. You have no hydraulic. So in Hughes, on the phone with MCC that was the amazing part, so they let him down the premise path, but, you know, the, the left side, it was gone between fifty four in one twenty five just flipping between those two numbers running second sensors ban between so census bad, obviously, so. So talking to he's trying to work the problem than he has me. You know moves the elevator up and down, as you know, he goes to the back of your plane on the ground. Looking up at it, and trying to figure out, you know exactly what you just mentioned. Step number three on procedure. Number two. So. Then I'm reading the San and then talking to me, it's main control say you fine. I sit where does it say in the Emil that you can combine procedure one in compared to? Now, he says you do one or the other one or the other the guy on phone in maintenance control was not a happy, man. Wait. I said, if you can tell me you can combine these two procedures that you can verify that step number three in the procedure. Number two, that you have used has been verified as the proper Pacific position. Then I'll be happy. I'm happy go. But I'm not I'm gonna stand my ground this because it's a fly control system. Hello, 737 max. I mean you know. Talking about elevator system. So I said, you know, we need to have the cheque properly in. He was not happy boy, so they went and got the cherry pick one up there with a steel rod in actually measured at to make sure it was within limits, and I figured it would be, but they tried to combine both these procedures which was incorrect. Yeah. Yeah. You can't just ball something from thirty feet below and say that sixteen and a half degrees. Ten and twenty one thirty seconds of ten twenty one three seconds. So that was my that was my in-command training, if you have an episode where you suck by guns. Learn something in, I got duty pout vol, comma, dispatcher. Because I wanna make sure that we procedure properly, you know, the EMI L, then he got the duty pilot to see what his thought was as a pilot. And then I bounced off my by works cheap office. He said, you know, everybody's complete agreement absolute perfectly in it was done properly after I insisted on being done properly in then, you know it all. They need to fix the thing, but that left sensor needs to be fixed because this is a major hassle. It's a made. It's every single lake. It's not something you can just sign off. It's something has to be done every single time and other than that couple really overnights ended up Cleveland overnight, and that was a very short overnight, by the way, this is reserved trip everybody. So this is a sign to me on the ninth day before it went out which was Monday. So Sunday got scientists had a long nationally and then end up getting Ono. Don't tell me this happened again. We it. No. But mine was a good one mine wasn't too bad. Actually, I was kind of upset because, you know, my favorite restaurant, and everybody knows listen to the show, the skull less gal in Baltimore. I got rerouted to eight almost eighteen our overnight from San Antonio were supposed to go for seventeen hours. Forty eight minutes got rerouted to Baltimore thinking, yeah, it gets to downtown going to scowl Fedun. I mean I'm getting in it like one thirty two clock in the afternoon perfect in its nine AM push. So get sleep in lacks beautiful Ono. Now, we go to the Annapolis hotel, which is about twenty five miles away from downtown Baltimore. So I'm thinking, okay. This is kinda like probably Dulles with industrial park, and not a whole lot around and have to walk quite a bit to get someplace eat. It's very someone did all this, actually. But as it turns out, they give you a free shuttle right downtown naps down by the naval academy and the waterfront. And it turned out to be it was a marvelous day sat on the waterfront. Looking at boats drinking some couple of happy hour specials in them, went and had some fantastic. Crabcakes. So on all is was a very nice overnight. And then watch the Bruins loose last night. So, but yeah, not a bad trip. Three legs, the first two to two and then three and lasting, so one. Excellent. That's my update. All right. Very good. Let's see, how are we doing for time, didn't pay close attention or required at the to our point yet? And maybe not quite we'll see Liz chimes in let us know where we are. Esta only, let's see, I don't think we're to fifteen minutes ago. Okay. So have about fifty minutes or so toward before we hit the to our point, we'll probably stick around until the point of plain tales. Okay. Here to take care of people work. Okay. Well the world runs on paperwork. You know, we're supposed to be in this paperless environment. Right. You're supposed to be you're right. You know, we have all these electron flight plans and everything else available to us. But guess what we still kill everything multiples of trees, every day with paper that we get gets printed with dot matrix printer at my company off the edge. The for freighted edges, still things still makes a racket and. Act me airlines must have bought the entire inventory of all the dot matrix printers in the world. And the paper that goes with it and in, in the Dead Sea scrolls. Yes, those are even the worst ones. Those terrible, the original acme, you know, had the kind of paper that folds every, I don't know what six inches or so. English sheets in eight by eleven sheet folds every eight eleven. Yeah. Well, actually it's like half that. I mean half, but the apparently the other airline with which we merged. They didn't they had, like continuous. That's why Dana mentioned the dead says it's like sometimes the agent will hand you this thing. And it's like just a big role. What am I supposed to do? We're the little handles. Like a role fax paper. Keeps on going and going wieldy for sure it's very. Be you know, we can just pull up our electric flight plan. And it's so much easier to manage than the stupid piece of paper, but were not officially allowed to use our electronic flight bulletin bag electric flight plan. Because it hasn't I guess the company hasn't given its blessing so, well, we can actually use as long as it's fair to fight against the paper copy, you have to have a paper copy, we have to have not sign off to be able to utilize only electric show. But I don't know if you saw the new update but when you pull up the flight plan electronially you can go ahead and put in your actual off time. And then update you your progress and they can put in fuel position times keeps you really in the loop a whole lot better. I think now and it's wonderful to that's been that way for quite some time HTML version of the electronic pine. Yeah. But you couldn't plug in the times. Yeah. I've been doing it for quite some time. Have you? Yeah. Yeah. That's just talked about that being laid updating. Oh, maybe, there's maybe there's something different. Maybe it doesn't even more than it. Did in the past. I don't know to check it out. Anyway. Oh, by the way. Somebody listening to our show works with four flight and is on the project too. Because four flight in Jefferson. I think kind of merge together. Right. Or they're in collaboration with each other with the Jefferson flightdeck pro-, which is the, the piece of software. We in our I- pads, and he, he sent me a note saying, hey, what do you think that acme is about to release? The latest version version four of it. Let me know how it is. And I thought I was running version, four Dana, and I'm thinking, I don't really notice much difference seems like pretty much the way it's been for the last couple of years. And then I realized that I went through all the procedures to make sure that I had the latest version and realized that I hadn't done it quite properly. And so yesterday when I was in Louisville, I finally got it working. So I have the new actual Jefferson flightdeck pro version four point zero one or whatever it is a Jefferson flightdeck pro x pro x I think, and it is really, really nice. You can see if you're familiar with four flight, you'll see a lot of that influence on what we're seeing now in the Jefferson flightdeck pro. So it's pretty slick still learning all the nuances of the software, but it's pretty cool. And that's why I think that software updated that actually knows that I could put put the times, but also is that mitt talking about in, in the actual Jefferson debt pro program. Or are you talking about the pipeline that you download via? I'm sorry. Yep. You're right. I'm I'm confusing two different things. So I don't know which one we're talking about here. But anyway, it's, it's good stuff. Reds always improving and the guy. I I'm sorry. I forgot your name, but who who works for the four flight and the integration good job, thumbs up like it. It's really get his name, actually. Okay. I it someplace to. Okay, thanks. I did notice that now we have a pink blob that surrounds our little airplane pointer had thing. And I I'm thinking, it must have something to do with our force field or something, you can see us in the movie map display on the stars in the cid's, and the, which we could before, but now has a big pink circle around it. So. Uncertainty the circle, that's probably what it really. Trust. The opposite. Whatever that it's yeah. Circle of distrust. All right. So while Dana is looking up that fine gentleman's name. I'm going to continue on with the item four Greg. I have a question about simulator training. I'm not a pilot, but I have taken the exploratory flight at my local flight training facility, and I have many or had friends who are pilots. Let me briefly take the controls while fine. I'm a very sensory person when it comes to motion type activities, for instance, if I'm driving and it's raining or slick out. I can feel my truck start to slide and I know that I need to make some sort of correction, slowdown or steer a certain direction Tetra, I think the same would apply to flying as well. Hence the reason I've never been very good with flight, simulators, or the P C, or in video games. I know the big multi axis, simulators, at least give you the sense of motion side of down, but I can't imagine that they can replicate the feel of the aircraft accelerating or decelerating with increase or decrease of thrust or the geez felt in turn. How do you deal with the lack of feel when doing simulator training, and this is from Greg Petersen? So these big multi access hydraulic. Stilt whatever you call them. What's a class d what, what's the specification full motion simulators that we use clarity, so it is amazing what they can do with these darn things, and make you feel like the airplane is really exceleron and decelerating and g forces, not so much. Because you pretty much mostly in one g conditions at all times. Although on occasion, it'll, it'll do something that will make you feel a little bit light in your seat. And sometimes a little bit heavier in your seat than regular one. G feeling based on the way. It's moving the, the simulator at self. And as I said, wouldn't you agree, guys that Steph, have you ever had the opportunity to be full motion simulator? I think the one that we did the hawker. Yep. In, in even more than more than that something that's actually a little more accessible to everyone in the general public, there's thinking, variety at DisneyWorld cut center soaring soaring. And also. There's another one too, that simulates, like a mission trip to Mars that replicates all kinds of g forces, you get very light in your seats and you've gone nowhere. You know, you're just in closed and it spins in different ways to different versions of it, too, right? The gentle version. And then the you know full motion. You know, if you're sensitive, you may not want to do that one. 'cause yeah. Unless you're queasy used to kind of feeling these kind of forces. She's right. But yes, you can again, Nick and Dana can, you know, you know, say that they do a pretty darn good job of making you feel like the airplane is. Exceleron. Decelerating. They do. Indeed. They, they get you so immersed. That sometimes you can forget in on a real airplane. Military, simulators have additional things try and give you feeding it g like they'll have a strap tightening system. So they, you can fail in a shout being pulled on whatever, but that, that never very successful, because, you know, g is such different failing you say, Greg, that you're a very sensory person, not on ideal thing necessarily in a crop because one of the things we've already discussed tonight is you'll census can be very easily fooled in an cross, if you learn to rely on y'all census and trust them, then you'll lead yourself out the couch and pop them because one of the things we have to learn when doing instrument flying, and Jeff is already mentioned United that. You can stop feeling that you'll nearly upside down, yet, the craft is flying normally because your senses can lead you astray. So one of the things we have to learn to do is not to trust a feeling. Don't trust our senses, but to trust instruments implicitly. So that's not necessarily good thing goes, if you find combat, and you're in a David environment than new, I using your you'll sensation. I yo- you know, which way up you on, and that foam of our inpatient fan throw yourself around the sky, and without exactly which way up through mainly visual cues, but also other cues well is important, but you need to know when to you have to switch that off. I was just going to make the point. I think that actually, the, the quintessential perfect pilot is one that can do both of those things who can know when you have to disregard your sensory feelings and completely rely upon your instrumentation, but there are other times when you use sensory sensations, which is a probably redundant, sorry, elegy and but to you know if you've been flying long enough and, and many of us have. You can just feel sometimes that something isn't quite right. Or like the airplane is like flying in a skit or whatever in it's just not. It doesn't feel quite right. Or your flying in approach and even your instruments are telling you that your speed is okay. But you get the sensation that my energy is all of a sudden, we're losing energy organic energy. And sometimes it takes the instrumentation to, to present that it takes a little bit of time to do that. And sometimes you can't I it's hard for me to tell say what I'm trying to say here, I think you have to have both of those capabilities to be the best pilot to, to have lots when to select Roach. That's, that's the key knowing when you have to disregard the sensation or knowing when that sensation is really trying to tell you something, and trying to keep you alive. Top two point Martin K, by the way, his name. Martin kay. Thank you, Martin K, so, yeah. Big thumbs up for me, so far. I've only had a day, three flights of use of the, the new version of the Jefferson flightdeck pro version four and so far. I'm loving it. Now. What I wish that acme would do is they would open up the port on the airplane WI fi. That allows us to use our flight weather viewer to also get information because this new version of the Jefferson, flightdeck, pro also has information like digital Avis and other information no Thames at cetera. That would be very handy to have realtime information, accessibility, in-flight, and Netflix this the to Hulu while you're at it. I'm sure it's just another little switch. Flicks on. Yeah. Eleven real quick. The yes, I do stuff. I do I was thinking questions. Okay. Carlos writes, in this is this Carlos, we know from plain-talking UK. Or is this a different Carlos Francisco Gomez? He says love your show. My dad's started out as an air nautical engineer and teacher at North American aviation in Los Angeles, and the nineteen fifties with North American aviation. My dad worked for North American with the current seven thirty seven max m cast cutch. He he thinks that an experienced pilot should be able to feel the onset of stall in a modern passenger jet. Is that true? Thank you for your company on all our long drives Carlos. And I'll let I won't go I wanna say something, but I'm not going to let somebody else. Chime in on this. I'm going to let somebody who flies passenger jets chime in on this Luca while I could have a chine. It's an interesting point because ever since we started flying. With fully hydraulically pound controls, which irreversible? And you have no feel no feedback from the controls on the control on of the outta fischel feel, which quite often is just a spring system that comes through the flight controls to give you the impression of the increase in false on the controls. Because if you are increased speed and vice versa. It's not really being true. So if that imagine this high speed, okay, you can let controls and their crop will rent fray quickly, that has not changed because the, you know, the craft is, is speed control. Deflation will give a large response in the but the field through the controls will depend entirely on how that oughta facial fail system is set up. It's usually a spring tension that suggested by peer pressure. So it knows how she going in nose to increase that spring pressure to make the controls feel heavy and vice versa. Now, if that fails system is fooled by a blockage in the pita system, or an error in itself, it can feed the wrong give their own fate back to the pilot in which case, it would not fail right in any Fomento. So yes, the on official field system can make the crown feel a bit line. Come a cross, like Steph flies that has direct flight controls in the wrong and Jeff lie. Yeah. I was gonna I was going to step in, in in. Manages to our plans. Not much longer. But yeah, the, the, the fact that you can at slow speed you can tip lot of flank control. Feel in sunny, control surface movement in the cross is sluggish and response poli that doesn't change. Yeah. Exactly. You get a pre stole buffet does vary from time to time some aircraft have very little, some have significant ones, and a lot of pilots in the past have misunderstood that thinking it's MAC buffet so high level the this can come from various sources one can come from high speed one come from les speed on. They can be confused, so it's not as simple, as you know, I'm gonna says, one fifty I feel the symptoms. Floppy controls. Lack of response is high Baath it that cross Stolz. It's not simple because we are fairly divorced from what's going on around us a lot. We don't we don't tend to notice the noise, but there is a significant difference in knows around the Cup. When you're high speed low speed. And if you're tuned to that because. Does your expense? Then you will know generally speaking, one environment you're in high speed low speed and you can take the appropriate action variance, that's the keyword. Yeah. Our airplane completely different. You can feel it in you'll know it. And you know, very very much in tune with you know, if you experience you have in, you know what? You're a sounds like you know how you you're playing fields. We're DC direct cable so everything we input is a direct feel to us. It's not a simulated or out official feel at all on our airplane. So, you know, one could I you on the ninety it's a little different because it's the powered elevators? There is a little bit of different field, because, you know, even like when you come in for landing, you know, just a very small amount of movement on the, the ninety elevator creates a lot of, you know, very small movement creates a lot of response on, on the elevator. So on the eighty eight we're flying this very well. I mean it's relatively big, but it's mall computer size of. The, the elevator that flying flying at a tab on the back so will move in the tablet quasi, elevated move. So we really have a direct feel as what the crafts doing what it sounds like what it feels like you know, if all else fails feel that stall warning system fails on the airplane in, you know, electrically whatever else it's failed yet. Would I be able to recognize stall before it happens? I can almost guarantee it on my airplane, because I've I've, you know, I can feel it. Feel the difference in the airplane. The mad dog definitely is an exception, though, to most of the other airliners out there and having flown L ten eleven and the seven twenty-seven even on those, although it's been quite a while, since I've flown, either of them seems to me that most of the time you could you could feel the energy level. If you're in tune to that kind of thing, but Nick made a very good point. A lot of times this, this little tiny buffet. We used to call it in the. Air force in the thirty eight like low mice on the wings, not elephants on the wings that was when you were in a false, stall on t thirty eight but if it's just a kind of almost like a little vibration on the on the mad dog it can it can mean that your it can mean a couple different things. It could mean that you're going to slow or it can mean you're going to fast. In fact, I'm sure that Dana's experiences. I know I have a couple of times where you might go into controlling your speed overriding, the vertical navigation system in the in the throttle system where you set a certain thing because you're trying to attempt to do something. And then you forget that you've you're still in this override. And so when you make that indicated airspeed Democtrats decision, sometimes it just keeps on the, you know, you, you miss it, and it keeps on increasing the mock increasing the amok, increasing mach and on our airplane. We start getting something called a mock buffet where the wing is, you know, you some parts of the wing are actually starting to go. Supersonic and you're getting that, that, that onset of like a little feels like at first, you're thinking, you're in turbulent, and then you thinking well is really doesn't feel like turbulence that I'm used to feeling and then you look down. And you realize that you're still in override and your indicated is still a reasonable number, but your mock might be getting close for us. It's usually around the seven nine point eight. Regime, because we don't have a very fast wing and then you go. Oh, yeah. I need to go back to, you know, the normal mock setting, which is for us usually around seven six seven seven or seven five two seven seven usually in somewhere in that range for normal mock cruise mach situation. And then all of a sudden magically that little tiny buffet goes away. But again, Nick mentioned the key, the clue is that we also have a lot of wind noise over the airplane when it's going fast. So if you're starting to feel that little tremor of a buffet, and there's a lot of noise air noise, that probably means that you're at the high end of things and you're going, maybe a little bit too fast. Whereas if it's very quiet, you know, have a lot of wind noise, and you're starting to feel that little tiny buffet. That's me. That's giving you the indication that you're getting to slow. It's interesting, the, the different chain, how they across feels at v refinancial landing speed approach Speight and stole speed. Jeff as this not a significant level of number of queues between that. So if you'd out crofters to get a little bit slow five ten knots. Belay v raff on anything. There's an awful lot. You can hang your hat on that situation on your on your airplane, but our controls really start feeling very sluggish. It's like something's not right? Because we're not getting the response that we're expecting from a certain deflections. And then, so that's again, one of the advantages of the old technology kind of like troll systems that we're using on the on the man. I it's like I if I notice some getting slow it's not because I've looked down on my airspeed, indicator, because you feel it at can feel in consensus at can sense. It feel it in almost, you know, don't don't have to don't have to. Look, I, I know what's going on. Just have to go, you know, something's just not right. I think we're like maybe five thousand pounds heavier than what we think we are. And then sometimes we'll even say we needed to do load audit to see what's going on here because such, especially on the takeoff takeoff rolling. Go to pull the airplane off the ground in fighting. It doesn't wanna come off. Yeah. Either they, you know, miss load actuator just didn't bounce it up properly. Costa one gauge that we often missing from on line is that we would all love to have is an angle to attack. Yes. Which actually tells us directly Mberi simply exactly what their plans, and guess what? All of the our airplanes, that we fly have angle of attack indicators are indicators sensors that are feeding various systems of the airplane. But in most airplanes out there flying passengers around, we don't actually have the displayed angle attack. And that's critical information that I think that all airplanes should display to the pilots. Angle of failure. That led to them. It would be much easier for the pundits to diagnosed had they had his own angle of attack indicated. I agree. I think we're all dancing around with him that, you know would he ask 'em controversy? You know, the airplane doesn't fly like an if lies like an old airplane, but it's what new systems is all the plane with new systems on it. And, you know, they've shifted around in and move the CG with the higher engines for the Ford heavier engines. So that's where I'm not sure that these pouts Eric could have felt the stall because it's has the computerize its hydraulic system on it. So it's not really not like our airplanes. Knicks airplanes. Wouldn't try and say so. Yeah. About this assimilation stall was not a factor. It was no it wasn't. Directly to his question. Okay. Yeah. Trunk count one grow. Oh man. We could talk for hours on this kind of stuff. This is good. Good questions. We have from our great ABC community. Thank you very much for those. Now it's time for the best part of the show, which of course, everyone knows the old pilots, plain tales and this is the second part to Dax on d day. The hope islets plane. Thanks on d day, too. To conclude this tale of the participation bets is biscuit, Boma a wild won't to vintage Douglas c forty seven in the seventy fifth anniversary of d day on the sixth of June nineteen forty four I cover the background some of the pilots and the Krause history and how I don't take. So I'm hit with showing Smith who is the chief pilot of. Skip Boma is that's right. Okay. How did you get involved with this woman flare plan? Well, I was a member of the straight warriors EM and, and one of our donors, Glenn Thompson bought the airplane, and he needed somebody to go up and ferry it back from Canada. So I said, I'll go, you know, so we we went went up there and the mechanics went up. I got the airplane five sitting up there outside for eight years. And so they got the engines cleaned out random, and then that one up there and another guy who had much more time in DC three United and we brought it back some remarkable airplane with fantastic history. Could you a little bit about it? Well, the records show that the best we can get is that she arrived in England probably about a month or so, after actually day invasion. So she missed about four to six weeks, but she participated in and lot of the of the drops. She carried a lot of the VIP. Around, but she is a complete paratrooper configured airplane. We think she did the drop in the bulge and market gardens. But we do know that she spent at the end of the war, she was part of the airlift, then she went to the Belgian air force. And then she went to the French air force on Lend Lease and then the French sold at the Israelis, not how you get at least airplane, you sell it the Israelis but they sort of the Israelis Israelis had it for L probably twenty years, and they flew it as they put some extra antennas on it, and use it as a spy plane really a spy plane, they listened all British according all that stuff, and, and then they, they didn't retire. They put it in their fleet reserve program. So it spent another ten or fifteen years on, on ready reserve, they did all the inspections, they ran the engines, they flew at once in a while, but it really didn't fly at all. So when we got the airplane tiller frame hours. Airplane is ninety six hundred hours. Wow. That's low really most threes are forty fifty thousand so could have an enormous life ahead of it. Oh, yeah. She could we rebuilt the wings had the wings, gone through, we did the spark check demanded the wings and went through that and it occurs in had to replace some of the flange angles. But she's ready to go. Now the, the flight out, must've been interesting. If you being down the, the blue spruce root before never. So tell me why how did it go? Well, you know, I mean, I've been across the Atlantic many times as an airline pilot and but that but, you know there you have a flight attendant call button first class meal, and a drink holder, you know, gone across the roots. It was tough. I mean, a lot of planning, you're always if he on the fuel when you get there and if you get there and you can't land, then you really don't have much options, you have to. There's a few other ships there. But none of them have fuel so, you know, so it would take a lot of planning. And we watch the weather really, really closely because anytime you go through Greenland, you know, the weather's always changes in a minute there. Now did you drop in places like some destroying field? Yeah. We did. We let it and Strom originally. We're supposed to go to know Sarsour, AC, but we didn't because the winds were just too unpredictable. They're blowing forty forty nights and pretty much down runway. But, you know, the west change any moment when you get there this airplane, we'll on land at a forty-three crosswind, so, but he must have been quite impressive. I'm an I had about the place and had on that says an emergency invasion, but it must have been the beautiful failed to lend up. Yeah. Yeah. That whole thing is beautiful. We, we actually had one of the helicopter pilots took us centers ring, only land there on the Sar helicopter pilots any, we drove us all up to the to the ice cap. And we were we were standing on the Greenland icecap. And it was at it was spectacular spectacular. We went up there, and we drank a little vodka, you know and, and it was amazing. And then taking off, we flew over the ice cap to Iceland, and it's all white and accept this guy said, you guys you right on the route take a look, all of a sudden, you'll see what looks like a oil rig out there, but it's not it was early warning radar system for the US government, you know, and there's two of this one hundred miles one of two hundred miles, and we're flying long myself blacks Pekka what, what is that we will take a look flew there was at just right out of the middle of the ice. There's a structure and it was early. Warning system. People actually lived out there, and he told us, he's landed a helicopter out there and he said, you can walk into the place. It's they left so fast, they left the dinner. The place cities are set on the table is it's unbelievable. Wow. What a sign that must've being Iceland, an interesting place. Yeah. We were going to spend an extra couple days, there just to sort of relax a little bit since we, you know, or on our last night, yet, cross Atlantic, and whether weather was coming up, and we couldn't find a place to stay the rooms, we only had two rooms there for one night, next night. There was no there's no place to stay. So we just load up the airplane, it came down to Prestwick, but I saw was beautiful to absolutely know that lake from Iceland. Appreciate quite a long leg, isn't it? Yeah. It's probably about seven hundred seven hundred fifty nine Kamau, something like that. And, and yeah, it was actually it was our longest leg. And, but we have tailwind. So we're at good and Betsy behind to self. Oh, yeah. Well, she's been. She's been a solid thoroughbred. I mean, you know, only really issues were really right here Duxford in our biggest issue and. We, we have we had a starter clutch starting slip a little bit. So everybody likes to just change starter while when they what put the starter back in actually, they got it in, they reached up and grabbed on the generator generator like almost falling off the airplane. And so, so they pull the Jenner Alvin shared all the gears inside. And, and that's the only thing we didn't bring it was a spur generator. So, you know, we made a sit out emergency textile, the guys and guy walked over generates here uses and, you know, when you get your Senate to me, so, but the on she's running good now, and then the other engine, we were just doing the spec, Shen just to like to make sure it's going to tighten up once in a while. So they're going through the engine, and they found the top rear cylinder. The intakes short take stack that catch the Selmer all wobbly just flopping around in there and somebody riveted it in. And so we had a spare seller, so we. Just to change Selmer, and Nashes and brilliant. Now Ulta make the point that you're an ex US navy phantom, pilots. Is that right? Yes, sir. So must be marvelous flying off carrying the phantom. I, I am via well, yeah. I mean it was it was very wording. I the navy flight programs. I think the best in the world. I mean it teaches you how to concentrate for sure. But you phantoms I mean it's just a lovely airplane. You know, it is, but the either doing a deck landing would've filled me with great trepidation. Well, the phantom is a very stable platform. I mean you know what we use it a lot Vietnam. As a bomber quite frankly. And, you know, if it wasn't for some of the computer things that the seven, or the six had, you know, we were never once practiced by the ship just iron bombsite practice, phantoms win all the time it pissed them off, but will hit win because it's a good stable platform. Come. Ship. It's rock solid. I mean it wasn't like the F eight or, or any of those other of the seven because they had a little bit of spool up problem, you know, but the phantom was rock-solid on on on. You could have done, it would have been a problem. I would love to what did you find the sivy weld? Well, after I got out of the military, good job of the airlines tiller, by went to the dark side, Senate making Bill to create a side to the airlines, and, and continental flew continental for twenty eight years, and I flew all the Boeing's, except the, the seven didn't the seven for didn't fly that seven three but I flew seven two seven five seven six triple seven, and I flew, the DC, tan led the DC, tan that I think that was one of my favorite white bodies. It was my favorite white body until the triple seven came along. Then I thought, okay this, this is a pilot's airplane. They did a nice job seven. Then I flew the MD and, and I have other type ratings too, but, you know, but that was those are the airline airplanes that I flew brilliant, and nowadays, you will retied and just flying this beautiful sea forty-seven around. Do you have anything else that you, you like to take on? Well, yeah, I, I flew got the fly Spitfire here yesterday. And that was amazing for me, and but I'm fortunate enough to to fly Warbirds. Sometimes, you know, I get my first word whatever flu is a p forty seven thunderbolt and that was amazing to me and then from there start racing the unlimited race class Reno, and so I've flown Mustangs before and p forties and those kind of airplanes, but it's just I've been blessed. I guess I don't lucky. That's pretty much what it is, is like, you know, an aviation the skill luck. But you know there's a very fine line. You know. So I mean Asian is probably half lock sit his skill. I think of it brilliant. Anyway, thank you very much for ten to us today show. And I wish you very well with the flights you have of the next few days. Save at a Normandy. Thank you. We're looking forward to really having tote to showman Smoot for a while, then found commit show, the friend of the show, who had invited me out to Duxford to look around Betsy an Tim, how he got him fall with the Croft to eventually become one of its pilots, basically, I my dad was a radio engine mechanic in the air force back in the sixties when he kind of transitioned into civilian life. He stayed in the maintenance, if you should maintenance industry and actually got involved in the eighties with a C forty-seven phone out of a museum into Pika. And so I actually grew up with my dad firing a different. See forty seven this was actually, the serpent's Karoi. He was out of the combat museum into Pika. And so from the time I was born up until nineteen ninety-five when they stopped flying the airplane, I spent tons of time in the summer with my dad in the airplane, my first airplane ride, I ever took. I was ten months old on my mom's lap in that airplane. So I've been see forty seven guy since the very beginning. And then unfortunately, the museum made some decisions and decided to stop flying the airplane in nineteen ninety five so I kind of went off and did some other things still kind of stayed involved in aviation. My dad. My dad had all his ratings in did a lot of flying before I was even around. And so we stayed in aviation, but kind of got out of the Warburg thing, a little bit still always loved Warbirds and around engines, and then I went to school in California in San Luis Obispo, and my third or fourth year in school out there. We just there's a museum about half an hour from my school. So we're stopping by there. My dad my dad's from that area, California. So he'd come out to visit me regularly. We stopped we stopped at this museum and they had just finished. Repainting. What is now? Betsy biscuit bomber. This was they acquire the airplane about two thousand seven, I think and spent a couple years, cleaning it up and repainting it. And then in two thousand nine we showed up maybe just a couple of months after the first flight kind of, you know, they got recertified in the states and everything in the first flight. And so kind of my background and my interest, I went up there and kind of started helping them and it's a fairly small group and they were incredibly gracious and kind of suck me in right away. And so that's how I got involved in, you know, once I got kind of got involved, our chief pilot Sherman Smoot, I got to know him pretty well. And it actually turned out that he gave my dad. He's also a local guy out there to central coast, California, and he gave my dad aerobatic instruction the top in like nineteen sixty eight so they had known each other from way back and then move forward. And now my dad and I both started flying the airplane. My dad's a PSE rated pilot in the. The captain rated pilot in the airplane. And so we both are fine. They're playing with Sherman and we've added a couple of pilots to the group. So that's kind of the quick version, how I got into it. So when I got involved in the airplane, my dad had some friends out in the same area and was actually friends with chief pilot. So when I got involved, the airplane, a decade ago, he kind of we kinda got into it together, and then my brothers, also kind of a history buff and also a pilot and everything. So when we had the chance to come over here he's going to be over here with us for three or four days and then my dad's here for the duration. He's actually here for long. Now I didn't realize you're an entire family of pilots. Yeah. All the males. Yeah. Yeah. So my mom. Provides all the support. And then yet my dad has a pilot, and then my brother and I are both rated are both certificate pilots. Also. And also, your engineers. Yes. I'm my dad is a I mean mechanic in the states. My dad is a, an AMP. I a. Rated mechanic or engineer, and then I'm pretty close, I'd say in the next three or four months planning to take all my tests done all the experience stuff and everything to do to give my airframe powerplant certificate for mechanic in the United States. And then my brother is a little less. So he's, he's a little more basic. Wrenching type stuff, but he does also Mr. on me and my dad's. Enormous things to showman. Nick is finally in the entire crew bets. His biscuit Boma for sharing the stories with. Awesome, awesome job again. Such great stuff packed in to these plain tales, especially the Dax over d day or on Dida index over Normandy, and the bets, he's bit biscuit, bomber and hearing, the chief pilot and our good friend, and ABC community member. Nick camacho. Yeah, I was just chatting to Nick a little other in the bay. He's in billion right now. I did give him a children's contact numbers. In case you wanted to go to the circus Murray. The bottomless beer. Well, I'm sure to get a few free biz. I think he's, he's a bit busy, but he's having. Not long. So they've been having a wonderful time pantley gates clad here that. We'll Steph you're still here with us without you're going to be leaving us. I was gonna say goodbye before you started playing. Straight until. For me to just disappear. Didn't want to do that. And plus I stuck around here played tail so at a bonus from eight, but now I really do have. Unfortunately, gosh is just been busy times at work recently. And this'll be hind at the moment. So before it gets too late night, lose out on a bunch of sleep. I'm going to take care of the pressing matters that needed tending to, but it's been wonderful chatting with you all today. And I'm sorry. I'm gonna miss the less few minutes of the show here, but saving thirty minutes. Surprised how much time? Stick around. No have a wonderful rest of the show, and I will catch you all next week. All right here, right. Bye bye. Bye. Okay, let's keep moving on try to get as much of this knocked out as we can. Let's hit number five the next one in the. Normal trans, what's the word trans was going to say transgression? That's not right. In the do transgress quite he'll we do. Anyway, I'm not going to try to figure out what the word is. And I'm just going to start talking about this one. First of all, thank you for making our lives a little more enjoyable week by week. I appreciate your efforts. My question and again, this is Marcus. Let's see most pilots statistically speaking are right handed, one would assume that flying from the right seat with the right hand on the yoke or stick would be more intuitive for them than later in the career from the left seat as a right handed guy who has only flown simulators at home until now. And hopefully we'll start light sport aircraft flight training soon from the left seat. I'm curious how this will turn out. So how did you feel or excuse me? So how did you deal with this during your careers? Thank you. And all the best from Germany, Arcus. Two. I think we've touched upon this over the years on the show, how you would think that making the transition from rights to left seat would be a major thing. And it is a little weird or odd at first, but then doesn't take it takes not as long as you'd think to, to get used to the fact that instead of the right hand on the yolk in the left hand or the control surface and the left hand on the throttles and then the other way around. It really doesn't take long at all to get used to slopping hands. At least that's I think, the, the majority of people people's experience Dana is the most recent one that made the transition from I officer to captain on the mad dog. What was your experience? Dana. So I, I just fell down dinner quick. Oh, sorry. You still have no mouth full of food. I'm my man actually have a toffee my moth- wait now. Oakland melt, but anyways was a challenging experience. I really didn't think moving thirty six inches to my left is from first off. So captain would make that big of a difference, but it's a completely default. It really is. Because now all the decisions used to be the first officer. Good jeffey. You know, I was gonna say, I think what he's asking about is the actual organics of the, your hands on the controls in that not of the role of being somebody who's just there along for the ride for the bucks. And with being responsible for everything I'm shy miss, I completely missed it because it just quickly set down. I'm sorry, you're gone. Whole time at just quietly said, yes, it was just talking about the actual physical ergonomic aspect. Okay. Sure. You know, the big thing is really how to fly with the left hand. We're gonna Mickley speaking. Everything's completely different. So when. When you use in ironically, speaking alway back when I was flight instructor. And once it became a flight instructor I always right seat, even my own airplane. All by myself, I always flew from the right seat who's crazy? So I always like fly Oma right hand so I can fly equally with even hand. I mean, I've gotten very, very used to coming back to left seat and fine with left hand. It's just it's different motion in took. I don't know. It may be took me two three hours of flying get completely come long. It's not very long. You know, it's, it's just a motive function. So the, the, the flight controls themselves, the same. It's just just different motions on different sides. Wadi. The biggest thing. I find the most challenging in, in the flight controls is actually using the pedals breaks all time in driving in the, the, the tiller to drive the airplane, that to me is that's the biggest difference. And it's far as changes go for me in using the left hand all the time to control the craft on the ground. So, and that was that was very much a learned learned a feeling to be able to feel how in understand how the the till is going to react, how much much motion, keep airplane from not rocking back and forth. So that was a modem muscle function that I was not really ready for it. Don't think in the massive now it's much better. So. To me. It's no big deal will be really wasn't on issue. Yeah. Nick, you had a lot of experience in many different types of airplanes, especially in the military and then in the civilian world and did you, you didn't start off in the left seat in sedan real digital? No something up so yeah a mean. Everything I flew including the boss. Coasts, single-handed stake, not a never fly with the except for once in my life, which was on my skills. Test prior to joining the ad line. In a seven forty seven similarly. But I guess, with both hands on a yoke, you'll kind of getting the feeling because both hands doing the job to just take your hand off to move throttles, left time must continue doing the same sort of thing when you've just got your right hand on the steak and eventually evidence on that, you know, invest twenty five thirty is when I jumped into the less to swap those hands around Walson, the easiest thing I could do most things I just found. It was that finis that little the, the small my defunct. Yes, you do when you just tweak and just ease and just gently try and put a little pressure on rather than make a big move all the big movement anxious for fine. When I need to do I could do it, but that I just I didn't have quite have that level of finesse. Interesting led to after a while. So, yeah, I guess, you know, every except for my flying, the one forty one Leno even in the air force in the one forty one most of the time, I was fine that airplane because I never checked out his aircraft commander on it, because I just wasn't on the airplane long enough to do that. There were we had something called the first pilot where you would do it was kind of like the transition between being a co-pilot and being an aircraft commander, they, they let you fly in the left seat for certain flights just to kind of get used to that and make it an easy transition. When you did go to aircraft manner school, but I ninety nine percent of the flying of the one forty one. The t thirty eight t thirty seven all that was right hand on the stick and left hand on the throttles and it wasn't until I got hired by acme that well, even then as I officers still same thing right hand on the control yoke and let him throttles. But you make a good point regarding a control yoke. Where you have many times when you're manually flying, your you have both hands on the control yoke and only periodically. You take your one hand off to adjust the throttles so but I don't to me it just didn't seem like it was a big transition. It didn't take long to kind of get used to going like this to this. So I guess defends the person and what your experiences before you before you make that transition. Yeah, I had to climb back in the right seat for a few trips when I was on coal and cold out, not as a canton not to fly as a first office. Now, I wasn't allowed to operate take off and landing from the right hand seep it, I was could be a relief. My ABS fine. I could in theory fly the airplane from the left seat when I was in relief, but at times, I'd have to give let the first offset climb out and go, take some restaurant climbing. The Ryan see I wasn't allowed to be flying in that seat. Just whack the radio is from that state was very confusing, because after venture to so many is sitting on the other side of the pit in just everything felt completely different. We what's interesting is we have one of our good, you're all good. Or one of our AP committee members has just made the transition from burst officer to captain. Congratulations, captain, Craig, and he said he was talking about in social media about how, you know, he keeps putting his hand in the wrong place and turning the nod the wrong way or looking to do something, and, you know, but it's still very new to him, but I'm sure that before he knows it. He'll be used to where. Put your hand. But it's a good question Marcus from Germany. Thank you for asking it. But we have a related question from Magnus gladden. He of the Facebook, he's as high, captain, Jeff and crew, I have a question regarding this video, and then it gives a link to a YouTube video. Is it common them? Both pilots are holding the yolk during approach and landing, I thought only the pilot flying healthy yolk, in this case, the captain. So I thought it was kind of funny because I what's going on here. I don't recall ever seeing this kind of situation. And then when I watched the video the airplane, they were flying was a seven forty seven, and it's the captain's leg and the airplane's on autopilot. And it does appear that the first officer. Well, it it's true. He is actually putting his right hand on his yoke, although it's the pilot flying his leg. And then I realize what's happening here because the pilot monitoring is working the radios. He is putting his hand on the control yoke and on the right side of the airplane. The push to talk switch one of the push to talk talk switches, his on the yoke itself in on the right hand side of it toward the top. And so the reason why he has his right hand on the yoke is that he is talking on the radio. He's pressing this button, which cannot see clearly on the YouTube video, but knowing what's happening there a pilot who has flown in an airplane like this recognizes that right away. And now this is one of my pet peeves. I should try to find that, that sound effect that don't get to play very often where is it? Shoot. I'm gonna play it. The peeve that you can't find your pay. Yes. Okay. I don't know how you feel about this data. I think you know where I'm going, I think your hand flying, the airplane, I think that the person who has pilot monitoring should if it's if it's a avail, I think most airplanes, have the capability of activating the microphone, switch, either on the yoke itself, or the or the control stick, which in Airbus situation. It doesn't matter because if you're that the air they're not connected. And so you can't feel if somebody is using the microphone switch on the on the sides to control running Airbus. Right. I mean, there's no connection there won't bother you even if your hand flying the airplane, right? You can't feel if somebody else has their hand on their sides to controller impressing the microphone button. Right. Nick. I mean no, because the whether or not. Lockton the that move. Mine and his is stationary. So I can't feel anything he's doing with history. So on a traditional control airplane. A traditionally controlled airplane like the one that Dana, and I fly so I'm actually still hand flying an airplane, and I'm controlling the yolk. Sometimes it's like starting to try to turn the airplane going. Why am I getting this resistance like come up, and then I look over in my first officer has his hand on the yoke, and he because he's using that push to talk Mike's which on the on to talk on the radio, and I'm thinking I want to go like, like, you know, bump, it really hard like get your handle. I never say anything nice about it. But although occasionally, I do say this, especially somebody is pretty new on the airplane said, this is just a suggestion. When the guy, the captain and his case is hand flying. The airplane, it's probably a better idea to use. The microphone switch on the Interphone panel to talk on your headset mic phone so that you're not actually inputting whether you realize are not, you know, I can feel your hand on the on the control yoke and it's kind of weird. So that's what's happening in this video. He is not controlling the airplane. He's not putting his hand on the on the control yoke, just to follow through with what the pilot is the pilot flying is doing if because it's just easier for him, I guess, to put his hand on the oaken microphone, switch. So I do have to say one thing, Jeff, and that is in that certainly going back to question about, you know, left right seat. And they're gonna mix the captain side, Mike switch on the on the on the audio panel is far easier to reach is on the first off side. It's a long reach. Yes. I'd never done it on the I had the experience of being a first officer in the right seat on the mad dog. I never did that. So I don't know. Maybe you're right. I don't know if it's more difficult to do or not. Yeah. It's it's because we're are on the captain side with the, the, the we'll to control the nose gear on the ground. That's where it is on the first office at so for us, it's further back in low closer to us for the first officer they have to quite literally bend over in reach forward to get to it. So it's much easier. Now is very very, very well aware of executive talking about its first officer, I would never grab the out just grab the switch not even grab. I just pull it towards me in the when you fine, you'd never even know. I was touching. It just follow kind of guide hand, but that's just an experience autopilots on though, it does matter because the other pilots, not gonna feel your input on the yoke and all because the airplane is flying. The autopilot system is flying the airplane, but I'm talking about when you heal with the I'm just letting people know that are listening who have not, you know, experiences kind of thing that, if the autopilot system is on, then it's no big deal for you to either of you to grab or have your hand on the because the autopilots find the airplane. Now the control yoke is still. Moving and a lot of times if you're flying couple of protas, especially low visibility. Coupled approaches. I, I have my hand on the. Yup. Just in case, the autopilot, like gives up, I wanna have my hands there on the controls. I'm following through with what the auto-pilots doing. But in normal flight like in in your climb and cruise and descent. Nobody has her hands on the control yoke, unless they're using the microphone button to talk on the radio. But I have a suggestion, though, for, if it is difficult to reach around and use the microphone button on the Interphone panel. Why don't you just take the hand Mike? He's the hand like that way. You're not bothering anybody. And it's not they're not reaching very far. You're just now maybe that somebody like me who has had many, many years and thousands and thousands of hours of flying airplanes. That, that was a standard way of communicating using a hand hand microphone to maybe have one question. How do you do you couple of the protests? Coach. I click off the autopilot in the auto throttles in the has the first officer put his hand on my hand in. That's what we call the couple of protein. That's nice. Yeah. No, I don't do that at all. Serious question. I do you follow each other through when you will flying approach to as the first off Sofala through the Joe can by sophis-? No. It's vice vice versa on the captain with a inex-. This is my experience only. And I've only been a captain Luwia now. But if I have in F O that I have very good confidence in, then I'm my hands at the ready. My feet are already take the airplane. I need to. But I don't follow them through unless it's a new F O brand new ofo e in not find the plane very well. Me as somebody who's been a captain for quite a number of years. I never have my hands on the controls when it's the first officer's leg. And you know as soon that he's been trained to the standards necessary to do what he needs to do to fly an airplane, even if he's brand new right up. I o e I don't put my hands on the rolls. The that's just me and probably because my level of experience in, in, in, in, in being that said Jeff, I don't actually put my hands on the controls might wins economy like around the controls you can. So I'm not actually holding on grabbing on. Okay controls. I'm just my hands. Right, right there. Yes. Yes, I have to act really fast the to save the day than than the reason I asked the question was one of the I'll given sagainst having side stakes that on coupled is that you come follow through on a pilot whose moving the controls 'cause you don't have a feeling for what he's doing with the controls the sized IX couple of move. If you're not going to follow through on an approach by putting a hand on the yolk, then what's the difference? That's a good point. Because in a conventionally controlled configure airplane, you don't have to have your hands on the controls to see what he's doing with the controls because your controls are are doing the same thing. But it's in clear view, and they're this big giant thing right in front of you sites to control. Even if they're moving a point, even if there are coupled. And so he moved to the left, you could see stick. Reflection of the left. It's so far out of your feel of you that you probably wouldn't notice it anyway. No, you wouldn't. But generally speaking on the appraised, she looking out the window anyway, it's. But in, in our world of conventional controls, we're looking at the window or we're looking at our instrumentation, but it's it you cannot miss even in your vision. What the oak is doing whether the whether the pilots flying the airplane, or whether the other pilots on the airplane, it is very obvious. What is happening with the controls? Okay. And I would think that would make very interesting. Oh e. If rations spirits because the captain doesn't know what the other pounce doing. It's via the yolk, it kind of, you know, you kinda don't have a feel you can see what's going on. But you don't have the true feel as to what's going on. I would say it's pretty obvious you after Oscar China coz. Yeah, I don't know. I just enough Sebatian. No good. Good questions. Good commentary. Good observations great questions from Marcus and Magnus. And now let's see, do you want to do this. This is an interesting question this is from Dave. He said love your podcast. I spend way too much time listening. I may soon be addicted. And of course, he's talking about the AP G syndrome, which everybody or a lot of people are aware of not everybody suffers from it. But. But many people are aware of it. A p g syndrome. A p g syndrome and it's our bourbon hope that none of you will be affected. They're, they're working on the cure, but we still haven't got it quite right yet. So Dave asks saw this article about the potential for bad actors to hack the Isla signals, and they give us a gives us a link to Texas explore dot com. And was wondering what tools or procedures pilots have to verify that the signals received our ballot? There isn't anything in the aisles radio signals that I know of, but can you your other instruments? L timbers DM e v o r rate of climate cetera be combined. A check perhaps rate of change of the glide slope slash heading instructions. Cetera. Do you think the local ABC would could install fixed receiver to verify that the radio signals are at least correct at a known location and broadcast warnings? If not does that sort of thing exist yet. Finally, do you think these concerns will celebrate the incorporation of GPS based landing systems? I've never piloted anything beyond cars and sailboats. However, my father was the head of navigation engineering at United Airlines during the seventies and eighties and was one of several people instrumental in creating an improved Isla system, then known as MLS the microphone microwave landing system. It was superseded by GPS just after being installed in a few. Locations. However, he was also a big proponent of converting avionics from analog to digital impo implementations and was involved with laser gyro evaluation and acceptance among other things. This was all mostly before deregulation when the large carriers had big engineering departments. I am also an electrical engineer, but I did satellites lasers not avionics, and this is from Dave Ellison in Palo Alto, California, very beautiful place and the link that he sent us was from, as I said, techs tech explore when an aircraft landing system is made to enter the spoofing zone and it talks about the ability and there's a video here that shows the people doing it and proof of concept of that kind of thing, where they can actually spoof, an Isla system, and honestly, Dave, I can't see this being a big problem because. When we are using an in most of the time, we're flying into these big airports around the world. It is via the instrument landing system. But we also are using moving map displays and we're looking at the projected flightpath of our round are their global positioning satellite system presentation. And if what we're seeing on their instrument landing system is not jiving with what we're looking at, on our moving map display in our GPS derived track, and vertical path that would be like, immediately, will something's wrong here. Why are these two things not sync up? And so, I can't say somebody spoof tonight less, and, you know, adjusted it so that the glide path, for instance was going to be much further out in, you know, start you know much further out than it. Normally would I think that using the backup of the vertical display of your? Path using your are an F system GPS that, that sort of thing would would indicate to you, or should that something is wrong with that guy. And there is such a thing as just naturally without being a hack system. There are things called what do they call it false glide, paths or fake? I can't remember you're right. The first time just a lobe of the transmitted signal that is much weaker, but can be picked up by the system and she's you. Full of the, the angle of the glide path is usually on the safeguards of is that on our instrument approach plates, are I less system approach plates. There is something called the glide slope. Check altitude at usually coincides with glide slope intercept altitude, not always. But usually, it's that exact same altitude are very close to it that when you're passing fixed point on the ground like the final approach fix when you're on the glide slope, and you see that number and jives with what the numbers opposed to be on your approach plate. You know that the glide slope that you're on is the real glide slope, not one of those policies subs. Yeah. That's exactly right. Chaff although that's been de-emphasized on company recently. We still required do the we call it anymore, which I think, is a we'd never. I used to call it. What I'm doing the briefing. I mentioned it. But I never we never say anything. We're actually doing the procedure. Occasionally on my on might say something like, you know, good glide slope check or something, but not normally now we used to have a full McColl of final fakes and the guy would come back with the correct town to check it. That's, but that's being taken out of our based so it's not smart anymore. You wonder why they do that. Because we went to Ebba so piece company thing not. Okay. But yeah, the crosschecks we continue do, and we're always keeping an eye on, on buddy thought angle of approach the bus, which is easy to and right of dissent, because and what small the ecru will keep it on that as well. And you know, you'll get terrain warnings from the GP WS from eighty s if you start getting wildly out. So there are plenty of protections in that to prevent this being a major problem. I agree. I don't think it's a big problem. I just can't see somebody being so stupid and not using these cross checks and not looking at your moving map display noticing that it's not jiving with what the island is supposed to be doing. I, I can't see unless you're just completely out of it that you would notice that your system is being hacked. Exactly. Good question, though. And I think that maybe the people that wrote the article or not pilots are just engineers. I don't know. Just hackers or hackers. Yeah. Hey, are we at the about three our point of have we are? We've come past. Okay. Well then. Yup. I saw the note from Liz. Yes. You're at the three hour, Mark. Okay. Well, unfortunately, that means that we're not gonna be able to cover several of these wonderful pieces of feedback in our feedback fuller. But you know what that means it's going to get transferred to the next shows feedback? And if you wanna send feedback yourself you can do that by sending his Email feedback at airline pilot guy dot com. 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