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Episode 119: Dr. Babelito y Sor Juana Ins de la Cruz (Brought to you by CYC Podcast)


Dr see that. I'm just kidding. I'm just excited because I finally get to air this episode here in the podcast. Hi, this is lovely Tokushoku show. 'cause I am talking right now because five he's not around. He's very busy. And so am I so instead of bringing you nothing this week gets web mimi's we are? So we decided to wear yet another episode of governess Guingona's because you guys know by now that there are favorite parkas. We love them might than fry pita bring you the best commentary out there on Ladan next queer representation there always grossed out when straight couples kiss on TV, and that's fucking hilarious. So please listen to cover on ESI ching onus. And in this occasion. I'm gonna bring an interview that might with me in the headquarters of Mulcahy Domingo char out to commodity for letting us record in his studio. And what we did is that we talked about one of my favorite shows. Shows in television right now. I mean, not right now because I watched it like two years ago, but it's still relevant. I actually asked my students to watch this show this show, it's skull. When a NASA in his the history of Hunanese crews, if you don't know who sort haunting crews, Google Kaz because he is one of those icons needs to replace, you know, who I'm not gonna get into it. So might as me all kinds of questions about who. I am personal life. And then we get to talk about hunting close. We talk about the colonial period. So this is one of those theme episodes that is more about history. But believe me, I try to make it entertaining. And then we get into other topics. So listen, very carefully as this is one of my favorite cover. Nasa ching episodes of us -ly. So that's it again shutout to send send your love because he is doing amazing things in the. World and soon very soon will be talking together and catching up because we owe you guys one of those we used to call them or the this. But we are they're not they what are what us last who shot us. Anyway, here's the episode. Enjoy countdown town Welcome to out unleashing on a podcast where we talk about queer let the next topic such as the TV show is Miguel. Especially the main character is wasting blister ankle Sonus or like naked in every fucking episode. So that's pure culture. You you've gotta love it. Hashtag bless Mexico. Closet gay. I don't know what I'm saying. Another about another famous closeted person. I didn't know that. I know. I know see I'm the then in that role more. But only got gastro I didn't know about the girl fucking power gays in Mexico. We need to like go on a in the gate yard ill at. I think. What about a little boy up might? How are you? I am excited. I am too. And a little bit nervous. I don't know. I just. It's like being in front of you know, start way. You're gonna make me nervous. Come over to. Yes. I'm so excited because like you guys podcast is one of my favorite podcasts. My god. Likewise. I remember listening to you guys for the first time, and I was fucking dying. I remember where I was driving. I remember the street where I was when I was listening to you guys. And I'm like what fuck is this? This is awesome. That was a long time ago. That was when you guys first started. Yeah. Like a good year ago. Yeah. So I am I'm very ecstatic. We've been talking about doing this episode for a while. So here we are. Let's go. Let's go. Let's do it. Let's do like a really has been a long time coming. I'm very happy that we had five from Latinos lunch, by the way, for those of you that don't know this about little Latinos who lunch here in the studio, and and we had probably five a long time ago. And we were so sad to be missing that day. So finally, everything comes full circle. Yes. And check out Latina's lunch episode with might there, which I'm guessing is going to come out after this. Yeah. You'll keep your listeners. Yeah. As soon as we have will be posting on our social media and on our website. So because we got into it. So I'm very excited about that. Episode me too me too. I didn't know what we were going to record about. But it's not pretty nice. I mean, that's the thing. Everybody's always where we're gonna talk about. I'm like, don't worry. Just come. And we'll take care of it figured out. Yeah. And and and I mean, we will have to prepare for guests that we might not know, so maybe a specific topic. But when your family when your friends is like, it's Bill we got it. Yeah. That's what I'm hoping for on this one. Because even though it's been a long time coming when I prepared for this podcast. It was like seven months ago. Damn I was looking at my notes, those like all this was seven months ago that I planned this episode. Really? Yeah, I'm ready. So I'm ready to but before we get into like some of the things that I really wanna talk about. I wanna learn a little bit more about you, which I know about fifty six hours worth already, but. But I still want to our listeners a little bit of Bax history on you. Okay. So I'm Bobby Alito all my real name is Iman roller tiger. I was born here in Los Angeles, California. And when I was five months old, my family decided to move back to Mexico. Thank god. So I was able to grow up in quotas. So there to fourteen years old we moved to a Paso, Texas for two years. And I was interesting. I think we the whole entire family went into collective depression. 'cause we went from like the fourth largest city in Mexico to like one of the smallest ones and the state's shut sexes. And it was different. It was like a different pace different way of life. And we just didn't couldn't adapt. So at the time in the late nineties there was a boom of construction Las Vegas. So my dad, it's a construction worker he decided to try it out. He moved to Las Vegas for six months, and he loved it. And he said we all go into Las Vegas and the first night were in Las Vegas like there's people walking in the street. Awesome. So we move there. Ninety eight I was there two thousand seven when I decided to go to grad school in New Mexico. I moved to New Mexico for two four years that my masters and God candidacy and became a PHD candidate. And then we moved back to Vegas. I lived there for several years and into thousand sixteen I moved back to Kirke to finish my PHD my peach Eibar, American, colonial art history. It's very specific say that retains fast, either American colonial art history their history over colonial history. We don't want. My sister. Does she does this thing when she wants to come herself? She's laughing too much. She goes. Usually Annapurna Mussa better density. Capacitors versus enrollment Rupa had to loop. Hello total beheaded and then she greets. It's amazing. What I say anyways. So my concentration is on images of race gender and class difference and violence in the colonial period in two thousand eight. There was a lot of destruction. And a lot of violence in my city white is and actually it's not it's not too different right now. But I couldn't understand or make sense of the circulation of images of violence of the Beatles. All kinds of things like that. In popular median is to the point that my family was engaging with it. And I was like why what is our drive so instead of trying to articulate and quantify human cruelty, I decided to go to the root and look into the historical context of those images. And that's when I got into colonial art. And then I started images of inquisition study images of martyrs. And that's what I still do right now working on a project that involves the history of. Sentiment Talal in Mexico. So in a way, creating my methodology, and I'm starting this whole new thing to explain why we're so super Mantika is super were like like Dylan. Oh velasco's. It's in our blind. Like, listen to wholesale into lists Miguel watch soap opera, a movie from the forties and fifties that is a a form of cultural creation that started in Mexico and the eighteenth century. So I'm tracing the steps in literature and in art, and how do we got to this point where we're just like saw dramatic about everything let so frigging fascinating. Are you kidding? That's really really cool. I remember I think it was movie like interstellar or something that made me like think about something like as humans like there's a lot of shit about us that it's very predictable like biologically and shit like that. But the one thing that that doesn't make sense how we miss people when they die. Because that doesn't benefit us in any way. So to me that ties into romanticism. It's like why are we so emotional about these things? So I'm I'm very curious what you'll find everything has everything has a root like the way the romanticize children. For example, how children are the vehicle for a lot of adult problems. Think about. Think about the the kids right now stuck in the border, and how this kind of things happening have been happening for a long time. And now we're paying attention because kids are involved there. Certain they're certain bodies that become vehicles for those things. So this intimate talent of that has allowed to do with our attachment to children. That's why we're obsessed with with abortion. For example, the same thing with. Trey Martin Chevy. Yes. True martin. And he this kid became basically carried to his grave the weight of a racial problems in this country. And it's always been like that. In mexico. We've been obsessed with with death for a long long time. Yeah. For Colombian period. But it really gets institutionalize into almost like law when it comes to the corner period. All of those things are part of right now putting together the class. So for example, we're going to spend one class just talking about that babies because there's a there's yeah, there's a Gamonal costume bre of painting dead babies in in colonial paintings, and they're just like laying there with their eyes closed and full of flowers, and there's a history of that also nineteenth century photography. So there's a lot of things ridden in American art in US art, but nobody has anything related to that in Mexico. So what I'm doing is? I'm using American art history as a methodology to build this whole entire thing in Mexico, and there's so many things like themes of women reading letters themes of. That children themes of romantic images of war and all of that gets a little fi in movies in the nineteen fifties. A lot of about race class gender. They're very sentimentalize. They become truth in film, and in soap operas, so why I'm obsessed with with Latin American TV because I see some tropes that you still seeing TV today they started fucking like five hundred years ago, like the Spanish of. Yes. Yeah. Been noticing like very frequently. You're watching these these older lake Mexican films like really really often. And I was like what is it like what what is attracting his attention to this kind of make sense. Yeah. When I met my bull. He started talking about symbols of the nation and how the nation in a way has been constructed through images. And he goes, I have a move. Because he's a his film major. And so he showed me this movie. Call condo girl. The movie stars with scene of money Felix observing the murals of life story. They're make by the better, totally romanticizing. And then she talks to the to the. President publican, and she goes to save kids in and Boileau, you know, like super romantic ideas about it -cation and the nation in butter these mall, and I was like oh my God. It's like I'm watching series of colonial paintings. But now, they're movement. And I got stuck to the point that we watch movies pretty much every day when we're together because we're doing a little bit of a long distance and Mexican cinema from the nineteen forties and nineteen fifties is going to be one chapter in my book because there's just so many themes, and I was watching a scene from Marie, Matt. Oh my God. And this is like mighty mass. You know, like the character, she talks like has this ridiculous coast accent. And you have the rich guy and the poor girl. I was watching this scene this interaction. And I swear I was watching these oak and a movie with. Veteran funding fell leaks, and it's the same idea of your via. I'm going to save. You your indigenous read Spanish, we're gonna fall in love a Kuna Matata everything's gonna be great. Those are themes starting the colonial period that transferred to paintings in the nineteenth century that become moving images in film in the nineteen forties, and they're part of the popular imagination with telenovelas in the nineteen eighties nineties and to a certain point steel today. It's fascinating yet. Don't know. I really want to just jump into sometimes. Because like I feel like I haven't seen enough of it for a long enough that I can really like understand it. And you don't know what can they have like thousand episodes each so hard to like binge it like I normally wouldn't show that I want to turn into a case study. But but yet novellas are so interesting there's one that I did actually watch only called me perfect. But that one was easy. And like, yeah, they're still so much like they're obsessed with classroom passenger obsessed with that's the one thing anybody can see that. But that's because in the colonial period. It was institutionalize in the seventeen hundreds. There was a boom of scientific exploration throughout Europe. And Spain saw themselves of the retrograde 's and the rest of your Spain Spain's retrograde so Spain had to prove to the rest of Europe, they were bad asses. They wear like leading leaders of the enlightenment. So they created universities. They they solidified the caste system. So according to how much Spanish black, Asian and European blood. You had you will be a sign of different costs and the more Spanish blood. You had the better cost. You have the better rights. You had so class is and trains with raises and trench with ideas of of education, so many different things. So when we think about race in Mexico. We have to think about class here in the states is different. We have been reduced or binary system of black and white, right? And in Mexico's not like that in Mexico. It's about class you can have class, but no money, right? But, but that's because the way that it was established in in the colonial period in those traumas and exciting still continue in Nevada. So that's why everybody is obsessed with money and class. And even when you might not have the money, you you might have class, you know, 'cause you could have fake Lee, but your class or your family comes from a quote, unquote, good family, whatever that means. You know, so it's very complicated for us. It's just like, oh, yeah. You see it in the soap opera when people approach it from another country. Like what the fuck are we watching? It's so interesting to see soap operas with people that are not used to watching them. It's like. Like their mind explodes to just give him dust because we'd been conditioned to think like that for five hundred years. That's so interesting. Yeah. I mean, you're right. Like a couple of things that we've touched on before on the podcast where lake people just like, you said with more Spaniard features, or whatever they en masse in specially in Mexico, especially today, even when they get here, even my family that now lives here like in have been here for such a long time. There's still like this idea. And I'm always like first of all, no. But it's yeah, it's very prevalent is very prevalent. But I also think that. A lot of our race ideas. Come from the states, so you can having money and being Brown. Mexico's not a weird thing. You know what I'm saying? So again, yes color, the color of us can has a lot to do with your social status in many ways. But again, it's all about social studies. So you can be greater Britain have shetler money and your prejudices will. Like we'll go away because of because of money. I mean, that's what they say like certain Esra certain point certain artists or whatever whenever they get enough money. They're basically just white. Yeah. So why for example, wide Latinos privilege in the states is not necessarily the same as wide Latinos in Latin America, it's two different things. Yes has a lot to do with it. But it's two different things. And does the problem here in the states that we keep talking about race in Latin America with this basic binary system, but the reality is that in Mexico. It's so much more complicated than that so much more. So for example, in my classes, we spent some time to month just talking about the cost system and raising how it functions because for example. They will inquisition came to Mexico to just to make sure that everybody was Christian more specifically juice, but they didn't have right over indigenous people because the people were in a way protected because they were in slave in other forms. And. Fewer cues of being Jude and you'll look Jewish whatever that means you'll gone to the on trial, inquisition and other side, and you start speaking now or Meyer. Yeah kitchen, and so they wanna passes, and even though you might look white you my look compelling chino wherever you want. If you are speaking that language, they're like, oh, he's an indigenous person, your you're coloring your time. That's why that's one of the things that caught me off guard. On one of the s the show on Netflix because she she comes into she impresses the shadow of all these Spaniards like out of nowhere. She's krill Ray. And she's like start speaking in what? And like they're like don't ever do that as a fence of. And she's like this is the language of this country like the fuck talking about. So when they nest is shown Netflix one of the twenty. No, it's a show Netflix. I think it was produced by many gonna so in a way, I condemn IX and scholar. Subset hunting groups put together that show and it reflects, yes. And do you know that they they just discovered I could five years ago? So they discover series of of poems that's one nurse road to the vice Queen the which one glass wounded, rather also, maybe that's why they're like, oh, this enough trauma for a lot of the dialogue is based on those poems. So they read the poems translated them, and I don't know. How do you call it when you transferred from the actual litter to script their doubted that? Yeah, that's why it's so juicy. It's it's intense. Like, you don't know what to think throughout the whole show like especially like her sexuality because she's not supposed to have one after especially after she becomes a nun. Yes. It's so interesting how it's explored in advisor of my refers. To nonsense third sex because you are not supposed to be men, but you do have a little bit more rights within the common than women. But you also don't suppose to be woman. So it's like a really weird eight gender thing. Very interesting. So like sometimes referred to them as like drag queens because you know, like they're always on on regardless. They're always wearing stuff. They're always performing a gender that in a way. They're they they have been assigned to you know. So it's like a weird, colonial. Drag Queen thing. And also there's a lot of portrait's non portrait's that were created of hers of nonce because sending your daughter to the convent was of big prestige. And just like there was a hierarchy in the caste system for humans and for people. So it was for nonce. So if you have a lot of money, you went with the Spanish nuns Carmelites or some of those, and if you had no money, you will go with with indigenous nuns dead that had a bad reputation, for example. So if you notice in the in the in the show, she goes to one and they're too strict because they're the ones with a lot of money. Yeah. Straight there. Hello strict. So she goes to a second combine with a little bit more loose because they're not as prestigious as the first convent. So there was a higher keel of nuns, you have to just like the kost, and you had to have Spanish blood many times there. So prestigious. You own slaves. They don't show you in the show that that sort when actually own slaved, right? But they just barely touch on it. Because at one point they do want to like make it more strict, they wanna make it more, I guess prestigious at one point in their life. You can no longer have servants. And they say it that way they servants. And, but you know, what they mean, you know, what I mean, then they're like no servants like them being appalled at it. And you're like this. Let them go. And that's the thing about there's so many things in Mexico from the colonial period that you just don't talk about like the conquest was shameful still for people. So you can go to Mexico, you'll see monuments for Moctezuma this. And that you won't see monuments for Cortez. You won't see ideas about it. There's still some rich people that romanticize the conquest because is the union between the Spanish and the digits people. But for the most part that's part of history gets race in KwaZulu hyphen, you won't find traces of the inquisition. When inquisition actually conducted some of his most intense years in Mexico. There's this thing out of the fair, which is an act of faith, which is a public performance of power. So the inquisition will will will enact its loss upon a person that's going to die or be killed or murder burned or whatever in public. So. They will set up a stage. Everybody will come from town and be like you and you're going to die because you're bigamist or whatever. And then after that procession followed to the park, and then they died the biggest out to the fair record todate happened in Mexico, and a stage was Bill for thirty six thousand people just to give you an idea. Jeez. Over thirty thousand people it was in the sixteen thirty sixteen sixty something like that. And it was such a big event that people from the Philippines came people from Europe came people from South America. So the inquisition had a huge presence in Mexico, but just like slavery, just like the conquest just like being in Mexico has erased part of its history, and it shows because none of that makes it into the show if you have to know the colonial period to understand certain things, but they never elaborate on any of that. Yeah. That's for. Sure. They I mean when I nece in particular they concentrate on on. Basically, Italy feminism just like how they treat women in general, which I don't know if you wanna get into a little bit more about one s I what I know about hunting is what I saw on the show, which British sure was exaggerated many times. No, one of the things that they appreciate about this show is that I think in Mexico one, and this is one of the few icons we have from the colonial period, we get lemon lean chill within. They were a loop. Bitcoin is right. Bruce, and we have this romantic idea. Honey Ness was was so unique this she was actually allowed to write and she had a lot of power and what were like chatter, but the reality is that she fucking struggle. So the fact that they always hiding his she's hiding her books. She's struggling the fact that the the Queen is like smuggling her fucking books to Spain. So she can polish them there. Those are things that we don't necessarily here in school just here this she's like the grave and Phoenix effeects Mexico or something like that. They call it. But it will never hear about those struggles. Because at the end of the day, you write the she's a woman, and she's a woman writer, and she's a woman intellect, and that's a big no-no Hanson's her more favorite famous poet, like Ambrus, nephews, Seif hair. And that's that's I think that's the last one of the last poems. I think that show opened with that and closes with that. It's about how she's not allowed to do anything because she's a woman at the end of the day. And it's so interesting her relationship with inquisitor see how they don't tell you about inquisition, but it's all about the relationship between her and inquisitor at all time. She's we he Laver so haunting is used to write poems against the government and perform them in front of them, and the government vice ROY will be too stupid to understand because she will combine allegories of God's from Rome and Greece with allegories of now deities. Yeah. So she. He will create this very laborat- place that basically criticized the government, and you have to understand also that in the late sixteen hundreds. It's it's a period of torment in Mexico. There's a scene that show you that the that the local peoples the native peoples of Mexico City are up in arms. They burn part of the of the. Of the palace of the governors in Mexico City. So the tomorrow is crazy. The the only successful revolution against the Spanish happened. Not the only one, but one of the successful revolutions against the Spanish happens in sixteen eighty and that resonated around the world because the the people from New Mexico from the southwest of the state's kicked out the Spanish and that freaked out. So everybody is anxious. Everybody is anxious about about indigenous people in Mexico, and here you have this bitch was writing about the beauty of being both Spanish and indigenous and she does with her writings, so it's a big no, no it's super dangerous. And in fact, thanks to Hunanese cruise her friend Gongora, which comes out a lot those are two thinkers that in a way planted the seed for the independence over one hundred years later because they are writing about. Being pri- proud of coming from Spanish heritage being from Mexico. So they right about that. They write about the pride of being Creel again from Spanish descendancy, but born in Mexico. They write about the beauty of indigenous cultures in Mexico. That's the first time that happens because normally that separated so those we call them Creel sentiments, so the krill sentiments that finally led to eighteen ten of group of people said fuck, you Spain get out and lead to independence starts right here in the where the where the show takes place. So the independence was in created in a year the independence happened over a period over of one hundred years, and that's why she is accepted by the government. Isn't I con because? Thanks, she's like the minima. He kinda proud, basically. So she has a lot to do with the independence of Mexico. Even though she lived. One hundred years before but. That sort of historical context. Really it's shown in the in the show, but they don't explain it. Which is it's hard. So when you go back and watch it again, it's even more exciting because you know, that there's too much like the government is anxious. Been proud of anything indigenous subversive, so. And on top of everything she still had her shed. And she's still doing her thing. The bada. She such a better. Yeah. It's like that's one thing that I did get that shows like this girl even link from the start of the show, which she's like fifteen or sixteen at the time. She gets kicked out like she's not only she forced to be independent, but she's probably the best being independent like she. Immediately takes things are on hands. And like, she's not afraid. Correct. So it's just it's just used a certain kind of person that had to that. You had you had to be like hurt in order to do what she did not just her brains, but like hurt guts super active. Yeah. Yeah. It's so beautiful because. We live in an era where we flunked our pride of being Latin inks and for most of us being lat next gets reduced refused to a few icons. A free that Kalo or a couple of things that were proud of. Right. But when you understand the history of Queensland cruise when you look at the history when she was born and how she develop and how she was able to polish you realize that we as people allot to the colonial period, the colonial period, it was a horrible period of three hundred years of oppression. But is something that we can have denied. We are. You can call it victims of colonization, but we're not going to raise the colonial period. So this idea of decolonized, this it's a real we can do things that are anti-colonial and protests and resist especially in a government that like the one that we live today, but we cannot erase the colonial period, we are product of it. We need to accept it and move on right and wanting crews, I feel like it's the perfect entry of how people. Have been resisting for hundreds and hundreds of years, and she is a product of colonialism as much as you hate it as much as some people want to go back to the pre Columbian period, which was also very problematic, and it was also stratified, and it was also violinist hell as much as we want to do that. We can't three hundred years. Fuck does all up, and we still dealing with the consequences? So let's learn about that. Let's learn about how shit happened, and hopefully we can move forward, and we can continue doing things anti-colonial not in colonial. I'm trying to use those words that's important to bring up because we even even me I like to make a lot of jokes about like the Spanish influence that we have. Yeah. Man. Like bill. You're right. Everybody is kind of like oh, full rejection like fully reject this whole Spanish thing. It's rain. Yeah. It's utopic. I mean, yes, we can try to reject anything Spanish, but. I mean start with the language. I know like what are skin you can ties are food. Everything is embedded in in what happened in the Cornyn period and just to say that it was just an oppressive period. It's also a disservice to the pre Columbian our heritage because again, natives never stop assisting. You know, when you know, the the calendar the bay Gaston asked the calendar, which is also symbol of the nation. When he was first discovered. It was discovering the seventeen seventy seventy six seventeen eighty in Mexico. It was an Arden. It was put on it was mounted onto an actual tower of the cathedral of Mexico City together with another important statue the name of the statues quietly what liquid means. Surp- bent, skirt chief serpent skirt and when you look at what liquid she is like four meters high. She's a gigantic monstrous stone beautiful, but very monstrous. So they discover those gigantic pieces under the cathedral of Mexico City, and they left out there for people to see people go to bed, then they wake up the next night quietly Guay, and they asked the calendar is filled with flowers and with candles. So this is in seventeen eighty s Cortez arrive in fifteen nineteen we're talking about over two hundred years and people still believe and have memories of the pre Columbian period. So as much as we say, the colonial period is just appeared of three hundred years the reality is that people resisted and a lot of arguments. Yes. And a lot of culture coexisted and survive that period. So I'm not saying let's embrace corner period as problematic as fuck, but let's learn about the colonial period. So we can better understand who we are. And we can better tried to undo and create. Anti-colonial gestures that hopefully will bring a change. That's yeah. That's a frigging. Good advice that I think that we really need to hear those point. Because we I don't know where kind of going all over the place. I mean you, but like, you know, in general as a community that let community the one thing that I want to know because I didn't learn about why has ever in. Because I I only was schooled in public school system in Texas, which is fucked up for another one hundred reasons, and I didn't learn about her until basically watching the show and doing a little bit of research here and there so where did you learn about her I learned it through school? And I haven't I'm not I'm not even doubted versed on hunting crews, I read some of her poems. I learn about her in my colonial literature class that I can UNM I learned through art history because she was France with Gongora house another writer, but she was also friends with Korea and yell Bando which are two of the most important artists in Mexican history because they are Creel artists because they're making art with that Creel sentiment that is going to lead to the independence. So one thing that was really exciting. About the show is that when the new viceroy comes in they built this arch, and she's part of the committee that bills arch and the arch will be made out of Don, I think like word and stuff it will be it wasn't permanent. But it will be like a triumphal arch. Very similar to the ones that were created when the Romans will win a war. It's almost like a trophy. But the arches they were made with campuses with paintings, and the paintings will have allegories so instead of an opera or instead of a poem. Kwan chorea and Huntington's cruising. Gongora they three of them designed the paintings and the allegories so wanting a cruise in choose version, everything she knew everything truly renaissance woman. She knew art, in fact, if you look at her most famous portrait portrait that made it all the way to the I think those laws yet as specials, and yes that was a painting created in seventeen fifty seventeen sixties by the most famous Mexican artists. His name was Megan had a huge workshop and in that painting. He's shown she's shown are reading which is common with when you have women port portrait's like they're not allowed to write their allowed to read. She's actually with consumer in liberal she's writing and she's in a library. Yeah. So very much like Saint Matthew and some of this the writers of the bible that whether they portrayed that's how cover. Decided to portrayed cleanliness crews and in the bag you have all those books among those books a treatise of painting. So even though she wasn't a painter herself. She knew all about painting, and that translate on the fact that she was assigned to create probably one of the most important commissions of the time this gigantic arch rate. So that's why a lot about her because she created that that triumphal arch that welcome the viceroy. So I think he will come in. And when that happened the whole entire city will dress up people would throw textiles over their balconies on mother's nonetheless, you have fireworks allegorical arches at cetera et cetera. Landless dennis. Fiesta, you know and learning about the city as a stage for baroque performances like that. That's how I understood the importance of of of hunting Delacruz. Yeah. Yeah. I noticed because this was a joint project, and obviously there's no she could've done it by yourself. But in the show, the whole time wanting to this one and they go around and immediately. The Sary's is wife was like I have to meet this woman. Yes. Her invisibility mater visible because people knew about her and. At either to the point that she was controlled by inquisition so much petitional shoes. Giving interviews and TV radio eight. She wasn't a public figure. She was in the convent. So that increase. That that increase her visibility. And they did portray her. And I don't know if this is like we have no way of knowing if this was actually how it was portrayed her as much like into it like she wanted people to see her where she wanted to impress people. Despite the fact that obviously before she had any attention on her lake she'd she learned for herself. She just loved it. She loves her, right? And she loves to read. But like they portrayed it as person who just like, oh, did they see the arch? Like, you know, how how did they react to the Raj or who's talking about it? And then they very heavily concentrated on her like her romances or lack of romance more like unwanted advances. Sometimes in the stories, and I'm curious how much of that is told when they teach you about. None of that. Because in a way, there's a whole realm of academia devoted to wanna like they call horn east. They have conferences and everything. Yeah. So, but the reality is that a lot of information we have hers through her poetry and poetry writing poetry writing history. You have to take it with a grain of salt, and there's so many filters in between truth. And what you what we read that? It's only interpretations rate. So I don't I don't know. I don't know exactly. The kind of documentation that somebody will have to do in order to recreate some of those scenes, but given the fact that I know that a lot of Easters where in charge of this project of the Netflix show. I wouldn't be surprised a lot of that is very close to the to the actual truth. But it requires excessive. How do you call it archive will work because letters between the sort of? One. Rain. Letters between gore and one the inquisitor all of that. If the to they're probably used to reconstruct that Ray employs movies, you'll appear that others. I think they're one Spanish movie calling that you'll ability which I think that's what she wrote she signed with her blood towards the end of her life, you'll up here with us. Oh shit. Yeah. So that's a natural famous scene famous phrase, which is like the worst of all like, I'm the worst of the wars. I'm a woman, you know. I'm a writer this. I'm a non yeah. Let's easing. I I don't know. I I I was really creeped because I was like even though I honestly anytime that people call out the bullshit about like how children are treated sometimes visually even today. Honestly where they get abused. And all this stuff. I'm like, yes. Call it out and come up, but I was upset same leader on they go to go ahead and Lee portrayed as a queer woman. Let's pretty much. She has. One relationship with a man which goes horribly wrong. And then like ten footer saying, but then I was like, you know, what this is. They never make it about like her being gay. They just make it about no matter. What no matter who she would have gotten involved with at that point. It would have been wrong because she was a nun. She put. She up. Right. And that's the beauty about this show that it's happening now because if this show was ridden twenty years ago, all of that shit would have been raised. So there's IDS the people will have because of the movie, I think of her queered nece, but I think in a way at least in the popular imagination this show help solidify that I tell you my mom, watch shed, and she was into it. I bought it one. Is that I'm like, yeah. And it's so cool because people don't want engage with any popular culture that makes reference to the corner period because the idea that it's boring. Impair scare Nobel on like, they was fucking big SO Popper anything. That's what I was talking to my boo. Like, we were we were trying to find all the movies that refer in the of liable or sina nine thousand forty nine hundred fifty s. That referred to the to the to the colonial period because we watch macario you've seen that movie. It's not clear, but it's Mexican, but it's a movie about this guy who gained special powers to the point that even the king wants to use them to cure the daughter, and it's a beautiful movie shot by the best cinematographer in Mexican history at and I was like I'm hooked like this is a big SO Popper because the involves device roll it involves indigenous people and of their also Sykes everything that we think about Mexican altogether in one show in one in one in one movie. Then I started thinking like how many movies of the corner appear because there's some crazy shit that happened in the quantum period. Nothing. We I think there's one call something Joan Santa Fe zero by Ripstein. I think that was in the seventies. There is a soap opera with Lucienne Mundus call the it's about a witch persecuted by inquisition should go. But I'm gonna say ten movies of the of the coin appear with made in a period of seventy years. And when you think of other periods of history specially the revolution because their revolution day ideals of the revolution of the the supposed democratic ideals of the revolution. Where promoted so much. There's probably you can probably find over one hundred movies on the revolution in a period of twenty years, but the colonial period, there's so much material. They're ver- so much material for some crazy ass shit. Right. Gay and gay so good. Yeah. I'm interested. Because like, you know, we have a lot of now. There's this new like surge of of wanting diverse supposedly diverse. Media. You know, everybody's everybody's wanting things, but they want to see themselves. Now, they want to see very specific things everything. Everybody wants to see themselves and their own lines, which is not gonna happen. But it'd be really cool. Let's take it back. This sit back when and how did we get here? I mean, like, let's take it back to the colonial period. And then view it through through the lenses of people that are educated. You know, what I mean instead of biased I think that we could definitely go back and create some shit now. Yeah. I think there's so much. But it also requires a lot of work because for example to ride another movie of the revolution will be relatively easy because we have been exposed to movies at the revolution. So many times. But to write a new script by the calling period will require a lot of research and many people fell because again, it requires a lot a lot of work. It's like writing this rotation like writing a book, but that's not how sent him our TV works like you have to produce you have to produce. But people have written dissertations. Like, you know, we just need to put our shit together and work with these academics. I don't think that's a problem at all and good examples committee. I dunno. I do my research, but I feel like a committee of a lot of scholars that understood the colonial period. I mean to the point that, for example, in one of the first scenes you had. You had somebody dragging victims in a horse, and they were dressed in some Benito's, and that dress assembly does those are the type of garments that people had to wear for life to when they were condemned by inquisition. There's another scene where you have. Screened fall folding screens that separate different rooms. And you see it in one of the first scenes with Canaveral Raina, and those came from Japan, and they were created in Mexico with Mexican paintings, and they made it into the show. So there's a lot of little aspects about the material culture that they understood they're like, oh, this is colonial. And this is how we're going to do it. So even when the production is very low, you can tell there's not a lot of money show episodes ride even with that. They still were able to include a little details. And I'm telling you this. I've seen I've seen a lot of things that involve the Korean period. I always get disappointed and so's my adviser. I asked my wouldn't watch it. He would y two and finally like a year later texts me, and he's like and he's like, oh my God. It's so good. Like, I'm gonna have my students watch this. That's how good yeah. Yeah. It doesn't around. Matt and link it does focus a lot on romance that, but it it seems to me like real it is and it also catches you girl at the end of like the last episode. I was standing up against the TV I wasn't just watching from my couch. I was so nervous. My heart was beating so fast on like, I know she's gonna die. But what's going to happen? Like, I was so nervous because the way they constructed almost become suspense. It's a brilliant show. It is really one of the best shows I've seen in the past ten years because of that. I mean, I've seen great shows. You know? This is one of have to get into airfare. We have to watch my God. It's like the opposite of k. But it's so fucking good. But anyway, so I've seen a lot of shows. Right. But why not just head every spot ahead? My gay spot a hit my historical spot. Hit my artsy. Spot my Poetics, but good cinematography. Even though the production is very low and Craig fucking research. Yeah. Definitely. All those boxes. Finding tended all at the puns intended. There's at least one. Oh my God. I I really enjoyed that show. And I actually ended up getting some just somebody super random into watching it there watching me they're obsessed finish the before. I did I'm I'm the master injure. I guess the last comment that I really have when it comes to. When I I know that this is not the reason that she chose to go to conman. She really didn't have that much of choice when it came to going on. But it's it's so interesting to me another thing, you could do on the queer side of things is like, obviously, if you were to have to choose between having to marry some douchebag back in the day or go to convent. Hello, every every lesbian is going to go to the fucking convents. Yes. Shit had to go down there. Like, just like, statistically speaking. Yeah. You know what I mean? So there's a really good book. There's like I need to find it. But this this theology of non writings throughout Spain and the Americas. And I feel like that will give you introduction because the study of of nuns, and as cultural prodecures producers is very interesting. There's a lot of people writing about it. But one of the things about the comedy, even though guests like fuck men. Let's. Go to the Covent is that the convent the way that they were organized was also microcosm of outside. So they were not allowed to go outside. But just like the outside world is stratified according to class, gendered and collar and all of that the same thing inside the convent. So for example, in the rich comments, you had the rich Nance one part of the convent the porn on the other part of the convent. If you graduated and you made it to the next step, then you can go to the other side. Wow. There's a lot of stories about them having abortions. Yeah. And there's fantastic stories which part of me believes them, but I don't wanna concentrate on that. And how many times they will have abortions? And they will hide them in the walls. So like, you still go to Mexico, for example, next, inventors and Monica and their stories of the walls actually have corpses of babies that they have this covered terrifying. But it's also very telling even our society today because everybody's all pro-life and all this crap. And and nobody wants to accept the fact that pro-life doesn't mean more people are just like people are getting unsafe abortions. Right. And this has been going on since literal nuns in a convent. I mean, guys come on just abortion happen. I know fuck there's also they were not allowed to shower. Jeez. They shower they were they had to be surprised by. People and they had to be wearing Guardmen was garment garment because living the convent was supposed to fulfill certain ideas about poverty, so and pain and the more your life resemble the life of Christ on the cross the better. You're right. So you have to suffer. You have to. Hombre you had to suffer during that allowed to shower. And when you finally had to shower will be for health reasons for only once a month. I mean the rules change from combat to combat, but it was like it was brutal like being convent was a brutal thing, and they show that aspect of common life insert wanna through her pained. The pain that she went through for writing. But they don't really show you like the. Yeah. They don't show you at all. Yeah. And I mean, again, every company was different. I'm assuming that she had like a better life. Yeah. But everything was there always praying everything around a common all the paintings. That are created are to remind them of their positions of the limit oppositions between heaven and earth, and it's just so many so many aspects, but it just because of that you also probably had a mazing fucking crazy. So Papua's that occurred that are just waiting to be ridden into movies. I want the Mexican non version of downton abbey, and the it's it's it's probably written already. Somebody just needs to adapt it. Yeah. That's very true. That will be good. No Johnson shit though. Be so good. Good will be so. Yeah. Again, the colonial period is because it's so precedent. So fucked up there, so many good things that I mean almost anything made you a service of person speaking now when you were Spanish blood made USA vs person. So imagine all the stories that were written. So man, that's that's something for me to ponder on the change. My whole pilot. And anything I mean, and that also goes to your listeners if they're interested on that maybe I can send you some links where introduction to the colonial period. There's a great website of east us this, and is just like, you you click on the website, and they're just different links to different aspects of the colonial period. There's also really good resource, and this are just introductory resources for anything from high school to like grad school kinda kademi. I wrote two articles for them, and they're just like a two page article or one page article and has a lot of photography in it. I wrote about Franciscans because that's what I do. But also there's like a really cool video by the portrait of hunting cruise. So you can learn about her without having to Rian tire book. Right. If you just curious and union major on this kinda kademi and vistas, which I don't know if you have show notes. Yeah. I can send them to you. And that'll be great mostly because I want them for myself. That's perfect. That's perfect. Awesome. Well, I'm going to do a little quick in the fashion of Latinos who launched you have anything that you wanna recommend regarding our topics on this episode. Maybe people wanna learn more about just colonialism in general. Yes, I think again, those two websites are really good introductions. There's another one I have to think about his type thing as colonial Mexico. But I think Khan Academy is the best because kind of kademi is like an art history website, and they have everything now, but the really tried to diversify where they have. So they actually for example, when they write about lavish kindle Lupe, it's to do scholars travel into Mexico being in front of the image of the video, and there were loop and talking about it and recording it, so it's like a podcast and each episode is like three minutes, and it's different art pieces. So you can learn about Casta painting. Casta paintings which were produced in that period. When Spain wanted to show that they're better than everybody else at cetera, etc. And it gives you really good introduction. And shows you that the colonial period is very crazy. Messed up also very very interesting and reveals a lot of troops. So again, kind of kademi K H N academy. The ethical philosopher. Yes. And vistas, and they are I consider them peer review because they go through a process of editors, bud. The final product is not heavy ask a democ- shed. It's something that I mean, I use videos all the time. And I know my probably that's not the right way to approach classroom, but I will talk for thirty minutes. And then I show a ten minute video. And then talk about for another thirty forty minutes and another video so you can do it from your home. So in terms of wanna I think that will go into those two websites will give you other resources also to to keep researching on the on the on the show. And also, I forgot the name of the company that made it, but Google quaint one Ness TV show and own exist and university that Medica and. Maybe there's a little bit more of an inside of the scholars that actually worked because I should have done my research. But I'm saying, I'm sure I'm sure doing those Google's will lead you into the scholars participated. Maybe they have some books that you're interested or ship. Maybe they're producing something else. Maybe actually all girl that many really good shows. There's one call so to fun. I binge watch that in like a week and there's two seasons. And it's just like this this girl who falls in love with us. I Qala gised she's in her late twenties. And she's finishing her thesis. It's all about the trauma finishing her. And she's just like biking around Mexico City with her hipsters friends. It's just like, so basic, but so good because to me they were my friends all of those characters where people that I grew up with a Canadian qualities and there's another show. I forgot the name of it. And some of the people that put their money into it is. Komo Sally the Mexican Casale and Star Wars they wanna they all now producer shows share. And there's another one about a photographer that drops his boyfriend for somebody in England. She moves and comes back, and it's the drama behind it. But the characters are so down to earth. They're not your typical like, I'm Mekki Gano rewrite. There's just people living in a big city. And those are the same production company. This the same production company. Forget the name of it that produce twenty nece. I mean one crew so again visas kinda kademi in anything produced by them. And I'm sure there's already something. I haven't checked in a while. So I'm sure they're ready have shown the works or saying out there absolutely have to. I mean, I I don't know what that it's been that successful. But it should be successful in Mexico was very successful. That's okay. And so two fun was huge. So to was huge in Mexico. I I watch YouTube so okay for sure. Well, then I'll definitely put up all those links where else can we find? You the podcast letting if you're not already listening to them, what are you doing at your shed together? They're on they're on all the regular streaming podcast. Formats working we find you on social media. So I'm Bev Alito on. On Instagram and Beverly tose ace ace to six in Twitter. Does it I quit Facebook because he made me hate the world. I still hate the world. But I hate it a little bit less because I don't have Facebook and Instagram and Twitter, I'm less active. So Instagram's my shed so have a lot of listeners who reach out to like, hey, can you recommend a book and I answered right away. So I will say yes, Instagram and let you know think it can be found that everywhere. You can also send us questions. Ask L W L pot, gene dot com, and also we are all the platforms Latino lunch, and then go spam them you want them to be on our show again. And then that's how we'll know. I can I mean, I'm back a moving to Chicago. But I'll be back for a month in December. And hopefully buy. In a year from now, I will have a job here in LA. So I hope so I will be here, and we can do this more often. And I'll take classes down known. Okay. Thank you so much for being on the show. This has been really informative, and like freaking awesome. I hope I didn't bore you're out in colonial. They better not be because I was onboard pristine taste, obviously. Thank you so much my day and out to your show, man. So good. I'm excited could ask getting. And if you guys want to follow us on social media, it's podcast on Twitter. Instagram Snapchat, pot on Facebook are patriots USC podcast, and my personal is NYC panda at Bobby on everything shut off. Right. But that we miss you. Yeah. Sorry that she wasn't in this episode. I know she's your favor somebody you guys. But we have who is fantastic and. Definitely here next week. So thank you so much once again for being on the show and by guys tau.

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