What is democracy? A conversation with Astra Taylor


From the Makoni institute for democracy and the studios of w PSU on the campus of Penn State university on Michael Berkman, and I'm crispy and this is democracy works season. Three chris. Yeah. Who thunk it would affect it? Well, we want to just take a minute and say, thank you all folks who around the world, really who are listening and. We appreciate your your interest and your support and glad to be out here for for another season. Yeah. Absolutely. And let us know how we're doing. And what you'd like to hear talk about and absolutely we more. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. So we're starting exciting new partnership this year, Chris with WPN issue. Right. And as you the EMMY award winning. That's right. That's right. Yeah. And and we've been here all from the beginning. But we've kind of upped the ante on both sides in terms of our relationship and both well for for for both of us. I think moving forward. Yeah. Yeah. I think it's it's much to our benefit to be to be working with the professionals at w. Yeah, they may only help they both. Yeah. We always say the jet makes sense martyrdom. We are and w PSU makes us sound better. Do. So Chris we're starting we're starting season three with a with a really appropriate topic. And that is what is democracy, right? We we were fortunate enough to bring in Astra Taylor who is a an activist writer musician and most relevantly filmmaker her film, what is democracy by the time this podcast releases. It will have we will be premiering in Chicago, New York. We heard about it at the Toronto film festival in the summer of two thousand eighteen and through the work of folks. Penn State we're able to bring her in. Yeah. Yes, she starts with, you know, a very interesting question. Very important question one that we've posed ourselves to students around campus and at various events that we've been at in. That is just what do you think democracy is right and her, you know, she she she argues that. That you know, democracy is this really amorphous term and everybody kind of has this. You know, largely good feeling about it. But nobody really kind of can articulate our many people cannot ticky late what it means. And and what and most and just as importantly, what it requires of us. Right. I mean, what does it mean to be part of a democracy? What does it mean to be a citizen democracy, there, many really valuable points that come out of this this film to that to that strike me is one that democracy democracy? Involves democracy is often not at all inclusive, which seems like a of contradict history. Yeah. Right. But, you know, our own tomography started with started with slavery. And so, obviously, it's an incomplete democracy, and a democracy has has grown over time. It has become moral encompassing. But a point that she makes is that tomography is often quite limited. In terms of who it who had embraces. And and I think the second portent point that she makes concerns the the challenges for maintaining democracy in capitalist societies especially global economies. Right. So so, yeah, the the first part, you know, your first question of of, you know, who do we when we say, we the people who's we when we say all men are created equal. Who is all men? What does that mean? And you could you could write American history as being the slow and painful and. Struggle of expanding that definition, right? But when when at the point of the founding, it was all men meant all white property holding men, and that was it. Right. And so over time you've expanded that definition, but they're still many people who don't feel like they're included. Yeah. There's a natural tension between capitalism and democracy because capitalism leads inequality, and then tomography sort of celebrates quality and all voices. And but but I think thought about even more subtly if presents it presents a challenge in this way. And that is that politically elected leaders are dependent upon the functions carried out by the capitalist by those who are leaders in the capitalist economy. Well, and the film pushes it back in the Matt right? It goes back to ancient Greece in and there's a lot of quotes from Plato Plato. I mean, you know, by many regarded to be the first western philosopher. Thought that democracy was completely unsustainable for these very reasons. But I mean, I think the the fact that we're going this far is a good reason to top and bring in Astro. Jan. This is Jenna Spinelli here today with Astro Taylor Astra. Thanks for joining us for having me. So we are to talk with you about your film. What is democracy just a big question to tackle in in a documentary? But certainly explore it from many different angles. I I heard you mention in the film that you may be not intended to make a film specifically about democracy. But it was something you kept coming back to. I'm curious what you had intended to do. And what was it about this question of of democracy that kept you coming back to it? Yeah. And the film I thought it was important to include my through grappling with the film's theme. Right. And and so I think you know, I think what I am barked on the project started filming at the end of two thousand fifteen I actually wrote the first Email to my producers suggesting the idea in two thousand thirteen I actually thought well, maybe I'll come up with something beyond the Macher Assi. Maybe I will come to the conclusion that we need something new. A new word new concept new way of organizing our social life, and yet as I kept coming back to democracy. And I think for me the big takeaway of of making this film and writing the companion book that goes with his I've I've actually become more of a small democrat. It's it's sort of inspired a deep conviction in the concept and the practice and things that bothered me about the term. It's Baig nece. What does it mean? Right. All sorts of people say that they believe in democracy. I mean, North Korea has the word democratic or the blood is the People's Republic, the democratic people some critic Republicans democratic group, I'm like, my anarchist friends, you know, praise democracy, you know, George Bush bringing democracy to Iraq. Right. But it's so it's bigness I think years ago, I thought okay. Well, this is a sign that this this word has no core. Meaning it has no essence, but now actually see its MB giddy as part of its power because it's this. This promise that we can keep trying to fulfil. So you you use you've kind of come to see yourself more as as a small democrat. I would have said you were small democrat long before the back to to Occupy Wall street, and you know, even press before that what how did that Evelyn happen in your mind? Yeah. I mean, I think though, I think I didn't find the word democracy. Very exciting. It wasn't rousing. There's a sense that democracy is. I mean that it was corrupted that it it was synonymous with bureaucracy. Right. So I would have been more attracted towards like, freedom and equality and Justice and even socialism revolution. You know? I mean, democracy is I mean people like us are interested in it makes homes about it and have podcast about it. But I don't think it's a word. The most people think is exciting. And you know, in fact, my immune more typically a writer than filmmaker. I haven't made a film in ten years. And when I told my literary, and I wanted to write a book about democracy shoes. Was like oh, God that's like a borings of lesson and you're gonna kill your career. And like that she was just like wake up that is not a word that inspires people. Right. You know, and things have really changed. I think we're in a really different political moment than when when we had that a that exchange because right now, we're in a moment where people are feeling that there's a profound political crisis and feeling like, you know, a democracy that they took for granted is in decline, and the we're we're actually seeing people sort of feel like oh gosh. I better pay attention to this thing that I was ignoring and did you see some of that play out in the course of of making the film? You know, you said you started in twenty fifteen twenty sixteen I kind of content to continue on after the I'm twenty sixteen election, or no, I the last week of filming was the two thousand sixteen election. I filmed for a few days after Trump's victory. And you know, unlike most people, I was surprised I filmed at Trump rally North Carolina, I had attended one maybe two weeks prior. And that was one of my I just sort of being surrounded by his mortars in, you know, rural North Carolina. There's the sense I sort of went home and couldn't sleep. And I was like think things are not as safe as I anticipated that they were, but, but I yeah, I sort of you know, had that as sort of the horizon that the point at which I would stop shooting so things. Yeah. I think people got more concerned with democracy got more sort of panicked. And yet in a I think what's interesting about the foam, and how it turned out in the ending room is actually the footage that I shot earlier was somehow more power. I it it. It didn't lose its relevance. Because. So many problems existed then they've existed for decades, or as the film tears this show for from Alenia. So it's not an in fact, the closer we got to this sort of moment of crisis of the election. Actually, I found that people almost couldn't think the interviews weren't as good because people were just in the state of panic. That was not very philosophical if that makes sense. Yeah. They'll come any kind of like uncovering these issues that that had been there all along people tend been thinking about talking about. Yeah. And so I mean, I was pursuing political themes in my interviews. And and so the things that people are raising in two thousand fifteen you know, are still relevant in a way there's sort of the the. Cause of the crisis that we're now in in all of my work, whether it's my writing or my filmmaking. I my temperament is always to emphasize continuity, and to sort of put change in its place. So I wrote a book called the people's platform. That's about you know, the digital revolution. And you know, my my thesis and the introduction is that. We've we've downplayed continuity that actually the problems with our communications or sort of digital communications as I are actually the problems that existed in the old media landscape, so consolidation commercialism. These are problems that have carried over. Sure. Right. And so when we sort of say, there's been a revolution talk about sort of novelty or stunned by the fact that we have a tiny computer in our pockets where Norring these sort of beer trends that are these longer translate are really essential. And so the film, you know, has a sort of similar protein in the sense that it's like, yes. Something and president it has happened. But also, you can see. Similar dynamics read history into the foam goes back to Plato and the Republican and warnings about the demagogue. And you you ask several people in in the film questions that that that we've been asking that you know, what is democracy means to you. And when when I've asked I've gone, everything from from the patriarchy to volunteering at at a nonprofit, and you also got a a whole range of responses to that question and new people brought up freedom and Justice and quality. And I'm wondering if the the fact that democracy is something that people can have project all of these different things onto it's a good thing. Or you know, how to how does that kind of help us get to a shared definition of what it is. I think the fact people have different answers a good thing. But I actually I didn't find that people had answers that were particularly in depth. And actually, nobody said democracy was equality to me. That was a word that that I sort of expected to hear. But it wasn't something. I encountered. So I got a lot of I, you know, I found that when I really engage people started asking they could they could have quite interesting things to say about their lives and and the political situation. But when I pose directly, the the question, what is democracy, you know, their their answers could be kind of cursory or or there could be platitudes. And I think that's a sign that like that's a symptom that that's a symptom that something is wrong. Right. That people can't really robustly. Or personally. Explain this concept that is supposedly so essential to our society. Right. And I think part of the problem is that democracy is. I mean, people really do a lot of you know, and we, yeah, we we, you know, hold up elections. So yeah, you have your, you know, trip to the voting booth or maybe you have the sort of fleeting. Euphoria of street protests. But I don't think democracy is people really feel they experienced today. And that's part of why I think people have a hard time defining it the other. We talk all the time on the show about democracy is is hard work. It's going to meetings having conversations with people, you might not agree with, and, you know, trying to to have a sense, of empathy. You know, co China to understand where other people are are coming from one thing. I did not hear express in the film was notion of of classical liberalism, so norms institutions those those kind of things that factor at all into to your thought process in you, putting the film together. Yeah. I mean, I think it at different points. There was a lot more about the rule of law, and and sort of thinking about because I sort of thought about different sort of tensions in democracy is going into it. And so when we sort of like rule of law or the rule of the people rights sort of and. That it just didn't end up being the most compelling issue. So there is stuff. I mean, there's stuff about sort of structure. Nobody uses the word norms. But there's stuff about structure and rules woven throughout the film. You know in sort of who writes the roles and Reverend Barbara talks about attacks on voting rights. You know, one point Wendy Brown made a more sort of direct comparison between sort of liberalism, a sort of Roussell, Ian vision of popular sovereignty. But no all of my test veers were like miser glazing over and you liberalism is hard to define as democracy is. I mean, that's that's a at the big invade concept there too. So everything was like a can of worms like throw in a word like oh my God. Now, we have to have to have to go into find this. So I think I think this the issue of structure is is there, but it's implicit in. You know in the one person who sort of makes the case for really norms, but the rule of law. Is an Afghan refugee Zanu. Yeah. We need to have systems we need to have systems of punishment. Like, you know, we can't just have you know, total freedom or even some romantic idea that if we are free will just collaborate in all be great. So I mean part of it is part of my attempt also was to raise these fundamental. Issues, but in language is not necessarily the typical academic or philosophical language because when regular people, meaning just, you know, we're all regular people, but meaning non experts, meaning those of those of us who don't, you know, read and engage the scholarly literature. I mean people bring up these issues, they don't use the academic or philosophical, or you know, blessing rhetoric. So I think it I feel like sort of hinted at but it's just in in sort of. Yeah. Common common tongue. Do you? Do you have a a sense of where the line between democracy and populism is I think kind of like, you know, absent some of the liberalism, and you roll of loss hypoth- things there's there's kind of a slippery slope. Yeah, I'm still thinking through the the term populism because so I think I think there there's a lot of right now. That's also another word, liberalism, and like democracy, there's huge literature around it, and it sort of up for debate. And I think there's a a battle over different definitions of populism. And there are attempts to claim populism on the left in the right. I think the right is making a much more successful pitch. I noticed actually a lot of conservative intellectual actually calling themselves now populous, and which is interesting. So, you know, this this idea of popular sovereignty is in the foam, right that okay? If by its classical definition, democracy is the people ruling. But I didn't I am. I didn't get into. Okay, we'll win does that slip into populism. And I have to say there's a way in which the Republican is being used now. Mostly by liberals that's bothering me. And it's it's basically this sort of thing tarnishing people on the far right in the far left as populous equally. And in fact, I've been sort of tarnished as as a populist by a very prominent liberal writers, though, I was like the double of Steve Bannon because I organize debtors. I basically, you know, what I'm not making phone to writing organize around student debt and. And try to help people have fair terms or get that abolition if they've gone to fraudulent predatory colleges, you know, I'm not I don't know. So that's where I start to worry that the term has kind of lost some of its. You know, lost some of its purpose or or. Yeah. Kind of the Steve Bannon ization of it or kind of. Yeah. I mean, it just can't be a synonym for everything. We don't like, you know, whether it's coming whatever side it's coming from. So I'm trying to figure out what the proper role is. I mean, you know, I think you know, I think America has a very interesting tradition of like capital p populism that was a specific historical political movement. But I'm still wrestling with what that word means this moment, and and it's on something I would define myself as so when somebody says, I fit in it, and I go. What's going on the the film as it's coming to an end Cornell west talks a little bit about dust riske's paradox. Can you explain what that I think that's that that's kind of relevant to in? This argument about the the hard work of of of democracy, and why people might not necessarily be inclined to do it outside of things like voting or those kind of momentary. Okay. Well, I mean the question I, you know. The film is trying to look at some of the structures that are preventing democratic processes and expressions. You know, so there's a lot in the foam about the role of finance and the power of markets, and you know, in sort of minority rule, you know, but then at the end of the film. I I asked the question, which is, you know, we'll do people want to rule themselves. I mean, do people want to be free? And and I think you know, it's tough question. I'm in philosophers of existential long talked about sort of abyss of freedom. And the fact that people retreat from it or flee from it. And and you know, I think the the thing is there's you know, as as as Cornell says there's a lot of evidence on this sort of negative lead side of the ledger. Right that, you know, people don't wanna be free that democracy democratic processes have enabled sort of, you know, the rise of fascism and all sorts of an appealing things and. And yet on the other side lo and behold, a lot of great ideas have come from below right? I mean, a lot of the principals and the progress that we've Allieu have come from people who we might think we shouldn't trust. So, you know, I think I think that tension is really fundamental, and you know, in I think as a woman, right? If you go back, and you sort of read. The historical record. And there's all these, you know, smart guys. We can't let women have the vote. I mean, they're just so irrational. And by the way, the husband has them covered. It's all good. You know, you think? Okay. Well, then that means that you know, not that long ago. I was part of this, you know, untrustworthy mob. So who am I to project onto people that they can't be trusted today? The film also spends a good time talking about the notion of of inequality economic inequality, racial inequality, and that's we there's certainly lots of of folks. Amy can't really fix what's wrong with democracy until we solve these other. These other issues of of inequality, did you gain any understanding through the course of making this film about how we might do that what some of the the steps to to take might be. No, it's one of those questions like so hard that like it's cart even know where to start to to detangle it. Yeah. I mean, I'm definitely of the mindset that you cannot have political equality that people can enjoy. Political rights that they have on paper in under conditions of extreme inequality. Right. So I the question though, of how to rein in the engines that are producing these conditions, and this amends concentration of wealth. It's a real challenge. So I part of the film is and that's the work. I do as an activist. So the work around debt is looking at what it what I'm really trying to do with my colleagues. The collective is open up a new avenue to fight inequality. So there have been labor unions for, you know, a long time fighting for economic economic reform by using the workplaces the site to build power. So the idea of that we're operating on is that debtors can also organize and use their debts as a form of asset. And a as that, you know, that isn't asset, and so you can use that as a form of power to advocate for change. And you know, there's. Things about that are really make it hard. So for example, that don't share workplace. But then the upside of that is that it these conditions of indebtedness also bond people who live in different areas. So it's some sort of transcends the urban rural divide and unites people of different races and genders and ages. So, you know, but it's it's a challenge. How do we get people to go from their personal condition of, you know, having to go into debt because they're not paid enough or because they don't have access to affordable education or healthcare. And then create a strategy that can then, you know, produce a change within the financial system or the state when when those structures are also embedded in a global economy. So the film is you know, trying to honor how how immense the challenges right now. But I think you know, the answer is organizing, right? And that's you know, we know that you know, the period of ROY. Relative, you know, relatively equal income distribution coincided with there being strong labor unions, and and you know, a different sort of economic, you know, new deal, influenced international system. So we have to change the structures and to do that people have to be organized. So as we can start to to bring things close here, you you mentioned earlier that you have a companion book to your film coming out. So where where does the the book pick up? Yeah. So I think I don't know how other people at it movies without having this idea in their mind that it's okay can all go in the companion book because otherwise you have to kill your darlings. The book the book makes explicit eleven things that are implicit in the film, cinematic language and book language, if that's what is called the just very different. I mean, and it's also them in a really different way. The film for me as a space to let people speak, and there's just kind of politics of listening to the film that really. Matters to me. It's it's, you know, I'm able to show people who we might not assume are experts in democracy and show them, you know, alongside quotes from Plato and into kind of, you know, create the sort of democratic chorus that I think is to me. I I still find it powerful to see these young woman sort of take the stage. An older women too. I mean, all sorts of people who, you know, we don't often see in in philosophical films. If we see philosophical films. The book is. Yeah. The each each chapter of the book is about a sort of paradox tension that I think will be with democracy as long that we have something that resembles democracy or is moving towards democracy in. It's it's really about the fact that, you know, it's a it's a process that's on ending and is requires a lot of attention and a lot of work. Yeah. Up. Can you give us an example of what some of those paradoxes are? Yeah. So when paradoxes structure versus spontaneity coercion purses concentre choice one is you know, to there's also the tensions of space, the local versus the global and of time the present versus the future. And you know, there's a lot in this in the book that will be familiar to people who do political science and political theory. But I I, you know, I'm I'm hoping that by taking these putting these tensions sort of friends center at it provides sort of new perspective on these on these issues, and you know, in line with the film it mixes mix. Voices. So they're sort of from below invoices from above voices from history invoices from now, and I think, you know, the the form and the of the book is, you know, a pretty unique. But the Conde mixes mixes people up, I think is also democratic. So after doing all this work, the the book, and the film. What is democracy means? You have to. Yeah. So I think democracy is a promised going back to that. But I think it's not a promise that the powerful make and then break, right? We go. You know, they're not doing our democracy for us. I really think it's a promise that can only be fulfilled by the people taking the time in and thinking and acting, you know in making it as real as it can be they can ever just be fulfilled. It's not something that we ever just grasping. Then we get to just relax inn tweak on the margins. I really think it's a perpetual struggle. So I think in the in the book, I'm like. The, you know, yes, we had our founding fathers. But I think we need to be perennial midwives birthing this democracy into being right? Well, that's that's a a great message to announce certainly in line with the theme of our show kind of everything that we're trying to do with with our podcast here. We're gonna close as we always do with our four mood of the nation poll questions. I don't know this. So not ready. We'll think of this like like a lightning round four emotions thinking specifically about American politics. So again, thinking specifically about American politics. What makes you angry? Oh my God. What makes me angry? Not funny. My mind is like God feel like if I opened the gate they'll just be so many things what makes me angry hubris. What makes you proud? Where's the stints? What makes you worry? Oh climate change. And what gives you hope the people? All right. I think those might be our shortest answers ever. So you have to cap to the lightning round for short. Thank you so much for your. Great questions. All right. Well, there's there's a lot to chew on in that discussion. One thing that I thought was interesting, and I thought really true is her argument that or what she said that democracy means anything you want it to mean. And so you can have everybody from Kim Jong UN to the folks that Occupy Wall street to George W Bush all saying, we were vans and democracy. Well, you know, if we've as we've discussed with some of our other guests or certainly in our book review episode going back to two full seasons as right? Yeah. You know, democracy can lead to very undemocratic sort of outcomes, or at least emocracy can lead to very illiberal sorts of outcomes democracy can lead to very thorough -tarian alka. So there's there's a lot wrapped up in these terms. It is difficult and a lot to expect of people on the street. Anyway. To, you know, recognize that when you're talking about democracy, and the idea that the people rule you're not necessarily talking about. Although you are in the American case talking about the protection of rights and freedoms, and and minority rights as well, which are very much built into the American political system and are a reflection more of a small l liberalism than they necessarily are of of democracy. No. That's clearly that's clearly, right. You with if you simply have democracy without any concern for the the rights of the minority and the rights to say things at the majority doesn't like or believe what the majority doesn't want you to believe without those rights. You know, Plato's argument is correct. That democracy is not sustainable that it will inevitably lead to either anarchy or tyranny. And so so and that is exactly what we've said. The the founders were so concerned about and so why there's a Bill writes, right? And why the courts are set up to defend those rights because if you leave it to there's a point in the film, where Cornell west is saying, you know, my rights as a black man are not because of democracy there because of the least democratic institutions in American society. Right. Indeed. I mean when you look back at that period, you're at a time where where African Americans had very few democratic rights and their their their ability to vote was highly restricted they had very little representation and any policy making bodies where they could live or what job. I mean, the American political system is set up with protections against democracy because those were democratic outcomes exact those were democratic outcomes, but the American political system is set up with a counter majoritarian court system, you know, which ultimately with which ultimately overturned much of much of segregation through through Brown. Another coordination's. The American political system is also set up with these protections affor- assembly and speech that allow for social movements and protest and dissent outside of elected political bodies. And and so there's a lot that goes beyond simple democratic rights in the American political system that can allow for actual freedom and for just more just outcome. So yeah. So she mentioned mockery Kalita, very unjust outcomes. And without these and the the argument is that without these liberal, the the bulwarks of liberalism, it inevitably will lead to those outcomes because people aren't naturally just they aren't naturally, you know, accommodating to the minority point of view. And so it is only and so the point is that if you're going to say what's the difference between populism and democracy or what's the difference between? Populism and a working democracy. It is the fact that these that populism is constrained that the majority will is constrained, and you can't that you know, you cannot decide everything by majority will right and populism. Also has this element of of an us against them built into it, which is more about that divisive. And I mean, that's why populism can be on the left and the right? And this idea of, you know, rising inequality is undermining democracy that too is a theme that that you can trace throughout the history of America or a western political thought the idea that if you have wealthy people if the wealthy people just keep becoming wealthy and the poor people just don't have any opportunity even with democracy to to constrain that power than democracy becomes either a sham. Cam or it descends into suppose. Although I I think maybe it's a little bit more useful not to think of it in terms of wealthy people or not, but just the capital is very mobile in a global economy, and the the very mobility of capital gives it a certain kind of power, and we saw this in the United States to just think back to the times when we had a really dominant sort of textile industry in New England or automobile industry, and these were relatively immobile sorts of sorts of economic enterprise, they needed to be where they were and that gave political that gave the people in those areas and politicians in those areas certain amount of political leverage the had to be there. Right. And this also, I think aloud labor union grow, very strong jobs. But it was when automobile industry, for example, learn that it can move out to Japan or down to the south same with the textile industry move off to Asia or down into, you know, South Carolina or something or Latin America. Then than that mobility of capital gives it a certain kind of power over people and democratically elected leaders because you're all trying to get a hold of this mobile cap. I mean, just think about the kinds of offers at cities around the United States were making try to get Amazon when they said, you know, we're going to build a plant, and you know, so when they're talking about offering tax breaks of different times, they're basically saying we're going to do less on our public sector if that's what we need to do. Right. Because because because we need to get you. Right. We want you're doing we need jobs that you're offering and and your mobile and can go anywhere. Right. And so that puts you in a strong position over us. And I think that's part of you know, that that starts to get at why this sort of global economy is such a challenge for democracy now on the other side of it offers us tools for democracy like social media potentially that we might have had before. Well, it creates incredible wealth. Yes. So all valuable points movie raises, all kinds of all kinds of issues. Many of which you know, nice way to open the season, right because lots of many issues, which I know we're going to address later podcasts during the season, for example, where we're gonna talk in in some detail about inequality, and and where comes from and why at least in the American context economic inequality and how that plays into political inequality. And how it, you know, how how it sets the terms for a democratic society, and, you know, whether or not, you know, at some point in equality becomes so extreme that it makes it hard to sustain a democracy. What are those points? How do we identify them? What do we do about them? So this is a really good kind of entree into our season three where we're laying out some big issues and were once again, reinforcing the idea that democracy is hard. It's not natural. It's not easy. And it really requires something of all of us in if it's going to work. Well, yes. And and what a great what a great way to start our season with this film that gets right at right at some of the issues that the needs to democracy is concerned about what is democracy, right? Yeah. So thanks to Jenna thanks to Astra for for coming into campus and for shorter movies, so generous with their time, and thanks to all you for for listening. I'm I'm crispy on Michael Berkman, and this is democracy works. Microscopes is produced by them. According institute for democracy at Penn State and WPN issue. Penn State our hosts are Michael Berkman, crispy him and me Jenna Spinelli Andy grant is our engineer and Mark titters our editor additional support comes from Emily ready. Sharon, Stanford Craig Johnson and the rest of the team at WPN issue for details. Show notes and discussion questions for each episode. Visit our website at democracy works podcast dot com. And if you like what you heard today, please consider rating or reviewing us wherever you listen to podcasts. Thanks for listening.

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