408: Frontend Masterery With Marc Grabanski


The maniacs you're listening to another self isolated absurdist shop talk show. I'm Dave got kids in the next room. My feeling here. Rupert Laden with Kristen Yeah Comfy in the booth. Quayle you Chris and tastic. There's a there's an exponential scale of of children in this zoom right now I one dave has to and Martin I have been skiing or four our next guest children it's mandatory. It's like the FIBONACCI of this is great. So this marker Maske Hey mark thanks for coming on the show. How are you holding up over there? Thanks for having me Doing well doing well adjusting to the Working from home like you said with the kids and remote schooling and all that stuff so yeah mark. You're in Minnesota a suburb. I spent most of my life in Wisconsin. So so I just. That's always just near and dear to me midwestern nurse getting it done absolutely building a real business. Novi See Yeah No. Vc in the Mid West come on is that right ever mark. You're the you're the CEO of still used that title. I'm sure you do operator. Ceo Front End Masters. I'm sure pretty much everybody listening to this show has at least heard a front end. Masters the URL IS FRONT END MASTERS DOT COM You sponsored in the past so so thanks for Thanks for your support in that way just journalistic shout out there but of course we just have mark on because he's an interesting guy running an interesting company that's at the heart of teaching today's Front End Developers. What the heck they're doing absolutely. Yeah no I really liked to sponsor you know things that I actually listen to or watch or read so Let's definitely the strategy. They're so excited to support it so maybe other people like me will like it. Appreciate that so I guess. Just what is it? Let's do the? Let's do the you know the two minute life story here. Yeah yeah a friend of Masters So yeah I mean the. The cliffnote version is You know I spoke at a lot of different conferences. And you know some of which you and I spoke a I met you. I think And you know through the time I really figured out that education is what I really really care about. You know I created a bunch of open source stuff like the plug ins and stuff like that and through that. Got To find out that what I really love is education and empowering others to build things and So yeah speaking at conferences and then eventually creating conferences and then Trying the whole screen cast thing and you know those kind of things but I really felt like I was missing that imprison kind of direct feedback when I was teaching and so From their kicked off workshops teaching workshops and found out that all these people that I these lovely people that have had their conferences. Could I teach specific topics better than I could so It was years of just trying to figure out how to take that kind of imprison workshop. Teaching people getting that live feedback and bringing that video and so Yeah that was a multi year process. And now it's you know a video subscription site and That kind of unique way that we record I guess. Kind of Makes the format quite a bit different? It's a scope to like one day you get through kind of abroad understanding and still are able to go very deep in particular topic. I think I like not to ever be an advertisement but I think I think you're right like the the kind of like work shopping of it because it was an IRA workshop. It is something you can get through in a day. You know as opposed to not to like some courses I buy or sign up burr. Take it. It's it's kind of like this. Oh seventy two hours of video okay. Good let's Let's block off a month to get through it but this is more like hey like years. Yeah or it's like way too short where it's like not enough context and not enough like telling the whole story of what you're learning and so it's Yeah. I I like our format that you're able to cover a lot of ground but it doesn't go forever and ever and ever did Sarah Dresdner's view course and that was because you walk away. I Know View. Kinda like nail. I know canisters awesome. You're I know I wanNA have that moment. I was just reading some view. This morning for Code pens supporting view single file components. Now I don't know if you knew that if it's pretty cool though this is like a special editor that you know because it requires single falcone's like require a little like extra pack panache you know can't use single components directly in the browser. Which as we know from this show and talking to do that. That's like a first class citizen of you is that you can use it just as a script tag in in the client. Just like J. Query or whatever you know view dot component and then but now you're saying I can like mishmash all may html CSS and javascript into one. Yeah a lot of people like that. Just bundle it anyway because then you get that really nice file format and I think he said on the show that half the people use it in that way that yeah yeah I think Felt is also kind of going in that direction as well but swelled has doesn't it has its own specific. How which highlight you? There's no it's yeah I guess I was just talking about having everything in one place. You have a single file component deal. Yeah and I think react is like salivating towards it. A little bit we saw. That was the timber. Some logging framework. We're going to have tom on the show to talk about it. But then would redwood. They have they're kind of moving towards in SF seek at our world to it. Sounds like but yeah. I mean the fact that view you can load all of that without like compile stage. That's what you're talking about. Yeah that that's kind of cool but of course with the the thing that does require compiles stages that's we're offering that but anyway that's why I was writing view and now I can't remember why we're talking about view at all. Syra took the front and Matt. Or Dave took Sarah's front and Master's course on it. It's just funny. How different as we really do need a little training sometimes to kick you off if these new things because the syntax is just weird. Enough between frameworks that you're like man. I wish somebody would just tell me for me. It's it's the economics it's like okay. I can go source twelve blog posts and try to make it into one story or I can pay some money. Sarah Tony All in one go in. That's I'm good like that's like these. I'm a big fan of these online courses of like bought quite a few in like I even. It's sometimes embarrassing. It was like Whoa Dave rippers. Taking like beginner jobs cooked or something but it was just purely like I did. I Miss Something like I've learned a lot of jazz group did I miss something. Like you know Array Function. That would change my whole life or something like that. I just wanted to know that like those are the. That's why I like. Sign up for these educations sources. Even though I'm I like to think of Myself Pretty Smart Okay at the web development but like I just. There's something to be said about getting a on. It's like you can listen to forty hours a podcast or you could read a book she clearly. Yeah I mean sure definitely like a big deal like I said these people can teach better than I can raise a specific topic like I've been in the industry for over twenty years of built large lawyers applications and a number of different ways but Yeah having that one person that's going deep in one particular area and I can tell you like the the areas to avoid the things that you should focus on really like the eighty twenty of that kind of ecosystem. I think that is really really powerful for sure isn't it? It's in front of Masters Kinda Four. Dave I mean not for Dave Rupert but like for people like Dave that because he doesn't seem like the marketing of it is particularly like this your first day trying to are you trying to change your life from being A ladder climber to a front end developer. Try Front and Masters. It's more it seems to me. I mean just straight up. Correct me if I'm wrong that it's it's more for people like I don't know learning framework their second framework or something than it is like to level up somebody from absolute enough. Yeah I mean we we do have a free bootcamp though. We launched So you can get in front of Masters Dot Com Slash boot camp if you want that kind of early stage in a building a couple of projects and figuring out if code is right for you or not But certainly like that. Core paid service is kind of we assume one or two years of professional experience. We're trying to get you to that level of senior engineer that level Architect large applications thinking about you know what technology you're going to be able to choose For Your Organization and that kind of thing so the goal is really to to kind of upgrading from junior or mid level to senior. So that's kind of the sweet spot that's unique is. How often do you think about it? I mean it just seems really unique to me that there's so many of whatever you'd consider to be competitors that are not focused on the next note they they prefer to stay in that. Well the you know. The largest audience in the largest paying audience. Is that really early early? Beginner because there's just so many people wanting to learn how to code and so Yeah if you're looking for you know. Vc money to target the intermediate advanced audience. It's not. It's not going to happen so the fact that we're bootstrapping the fact that we're a. I want to do things that are interesting to me like. I want to learn from these people. I want to see these deep dives like watch on large and Do Bunch a stuff pack and then like immediately after like a you know a ship. The brand new kind of wet pack Build for one of the sites that we were working site. Yeah so yeah all the performance stuff in a we apply that that you know people are teaching about I. Have I do that sometimes? To PUBLISH SOME INTERESTING POST. Unsee assist tricks and then. I feel guilty that we're not doing it or we're not advantage of it and the way that the post lays out right there on my God damn it literally have to spend the afternoon doing whatever this post says because it's a good idea but you know in line CSS policy getting no. We're GonNa Admin page on Code Penny of the day and I just went all in. I just dialed the entire page within line. Css It felt so weird. But like I for some reason I just felt like not monkeying around with the rails asset pipeline. Crap is just like you know what I'm just GonNa like. It's not that many styles and you can get really far these days with how much control you have with grid on the parent element. You know that. Anyway that's your style though to Chrissy just kind of like the bare metal build stuff. I don't know I I really liked your side of free reasons that you've been doing on your like thanks. It's it's like I just did one this morning. I don't have a day-long version of otherwise I'd sell it to you. Yeah I mean we've been trying to get you to do a workshop for a while but I know it's going to happen. Especially now they were well. I just think it'll work. Well Marcus generously not only sponsored this show in the past but we have sponsoring CSS TRICKS. Right now to be awesome. Because I don't have that I mean I do. Screen casts as mark knows and just graciously complimented me on but I don't really have anything on Siesta strikes. That's like you ought to learn axe from scratch. You know like I've dabbled in that before but haven't done that. Great of a job so I don't really have anywhere to send anybody to. They're just like listening. Aren't you the guy that teaches people front end stuff and ten? Generally you know like if you Google something you might learn the answer to your question on my site. I don't really have training. Which is actually has turned out to be fortuitous for me because it means I can partner with people like mark and be like go over there and learn google stuff. You might end up back on my site. Yeah no it's it's that partnership is has been awesome. It's just like people and on a specific article about reacting and they WANNA go learn rack front to back. We have a whole learning path. You know that they can go In all the various so reacts gotTa Be Huge Free. Yeah Yeah Well. Actually the the jobs can fundamentals is is kind of our biggest strength because we have everything from you know just the the basics of the language all the way up through a synchronous programming functional programming and now just dropped like hardcore functional programming. Where you you know doing monet's transformers and all sorts of crazy stuff so like that that kind of path of really you know to the metal building and under understanding of the language itself and then you can apply that other frameworks and obviously we have a bunch of react stuff because that's super super hot but like me you know I. My focus is always like on the the fundamentals you know the but deep fundamentals of like the web stack how it fits together. It's like slice that you let those principles guide you in a way because if I don't know if all you cared about is like what's the hottest thing right now. I WANNA get courses out on that because that's all that matters and you didn't have a principle guiding you that that might get you in trouble. Yeah exactly I mean we have missed a few things like I. Just when I saw redux I just hated it so bad. I just thought it was just such a bad pattern and so like you know that it was really popular and you know it kind of a missed it right but we we eventually got some good reebok stuff in there but then the industry came back around. Now it's like oh Do as much as you can with these. You know context. Api's that we give you. Which I thought is a better approach and I was like hey so they kind of came around but it was like everybody was like reduction dogs three dogs and I was like no. This is so bad. So I mean I guess. Principles can be of a failure as well In that scenario but in general like I would say that the internal compass of just like focusing on the fundamentals and building out You know that understanding from first principles is is paid off in spades. Because for everyone that we missed you know The will drop a course like Java scrip- The hard parts or we'll sentences really kind of like building her entire You understanding of the compilation phase and and You know javascript under the hood and closure and all these kinds of things in a visual way. It's like that is you know that's going. Be Valuable for years and years and people kind of come back to refresh their understanding of those kind of deeper concepts of of javascript. And so Yeah I mean focusing on that kind of I print. Principles approaches has always been my. You know that's like it took me forever to allow anybody on my team to put react in any scenario in our in our website. Yeah because like front of Masters Dot Com swertz shirts. No IT'S FRONT OF MASTER DOT COM Vanilla Javascript. It's super fast. If you go to like the the performance is off the charts. It's not loading. Allot it just. It goes right. It's you know it's bill from that first. Principles approach like when you look at an admin dashboard with tons and tons of functionality. And you need to build it out quickly. We're using semantic. Ui and react in. It allows us to move really fast in that area but Yeah I just. I don't like putting a lot of abstraction layers between you and the code and I just like to load fast and work past ten radical thing. I've ever now like yeah no the front end of our site. That doesn't have that much super detailed interactivity. It's you know it's a little blog like you know like on the titles of things and dig deeper into the site. Maybe react not particularly useful there and then the dashboard just poured Zari'i you just feel like once you start to go down that path start to include everything just like. Oh instead of building this. I'M GONNA NPR. Install this. And I'm GonNa MPM install that and eventually you just get this massive pile of code or just like if you would have done first principles thinking towards the thing that you're building even our courses player. It's so so small amount of code because it's just built from that first principles thinking and like having an architecture that fits our use case and everything's possible and we can use it everywhere we can use it for promo videos. We can use it for the big courses. Blair we can use it on the back end for Qa and editing and all this kind of stuff and it's just like this tiny little bit of a cold that just powers so much and you know that's that's what you get to when you have that first principles mindset and you like really understand the languages and the you know the browser what it's doing and You not having so many layers of abstraction where you just installing everything right a whim and just the balance though right like the second. You need a little more strikes. You can't be afraid of it. Either dig yourself a hole anyway where you're going to say. Do I decided that's actually been my experience this week. Just like you know I'm working but then trying to like deal side project he stuff and then it's like okay. I need like I want us like neff FIS identities system which is pretty easy to get going but but like you know you re tutorial night you know mpm style. React metlife identity Blah Blah Blah. Well okay well not using react so what I need to do so like you. You're like I feel like you know like jumping in. The deep end is like can work but like but like this school doesn't work. Exactly what's right with this tool? So you gotta put this like Glue Code in the middle and Blah Blah Blah like. Yeah so then you start you just end up gluing crat cred together and you just. You're like I'm not react developer but I guess I gotta be 'cause I want a nullify logging or whatever and like there's but like if you strip it down your and this is what I had to do is just be okay. What's like the basic like nullify logging? And they have like a script you do in. Even that's too fancy like but now I've done the script and it's like okay now maybe GonNa try to roll my own log in and see what that's like and then once I do that then maybe I can see like would you know what next view by logging Blah Blah Blah. Yeah like no then. I'll use the plug in system like I don't want jump into the plug in system. I that's just me though. That's like your life story life story. No shortcuts. Do hard hard mode. This upset of shop talk show is brought to you in part by La. Di Maybe you already know nullified because it kicks but that might be a reason you know why I don't know I guess like the default way I think of nullify. I have a site whatever. Some kind of website is simple site that maybe I use the static site generator on. Maybe I. Maybe it's just flat files. Maybe I'm building with a headless. Cms or building it in some kind of jam stack style or some kind of you know front end. Javascript focus style. I don't know there's lots of different sites you can build. I have a report on. Get HUB or get lab or any other get republic and I just. I need it to be deployed. I need to send it up to the Internet. A production worthy site a super fast. Cdn backed beautiful deployment system. That's what I need. And I don't WanNa like write my own deployments and I don't WanNA use third party tools for deployment I want my host my deployment to be together. Maybe you don't even think in that way because you didn't even know a possible. That's why I got this repo. I wanted to play. You know how I deploy. I pushed a master. That's all I need to do and your site is up. It's great. I use it for everything I possibly can cause just love nullify. It's also so affordable which is great a lot of times you can just end up you're just below the free tier and you can just use. Netla five for free and there's just a few things charged for. Here's a brand new thing on. Nullify that they just announced at jammed stack. London is analytics. And that's one of the things that costs a few bucks. You WanNa turn on analytics for your site. It's nine bucks a month which is trivial for the good information that you get far. It's amazing because first of all if you didn't have any analytics on your site before you turn on analytics you'll have your historical analytics to because it's based on server logs. They have the server logs anyway And they can kind of Parse them and get the data together for your notify site so it's incredible like the day that you turn it on. You have tons of data about the usage of your site and server. Logs is the best possible way to do analytics. It's like you don't even have to care how it works. But the point is like it's not. It's not slowing down your site for any reason because there's no client side Javascript at all that's tracking anything. It's all handled after the fact and analyzed after the fact nothing can block it which is kind of Nice you know the I bet why I don't know maybe every single person listening to this runs an adblocker of some kind. A lot of them have flipped on blocking google stuff like Google analytics like. Just don't let it run it all. Google analytics is the big player on the block. And now that. Data's totally missing from that analytics. That's a big deal. People that just turned javascript off for any reason aren't tracked in that way. This data will be way more accurate. This is the most accurate analytics. You can possibly have for a site because of how they've done it so anyway it's great. It just feels really by get good data from it. For any reason you'd WANNA use analytics. I don't know just check it out now. Find a good job do you love it? I got another one just yesterday. We are GONNA working on redesigning and rebuilding the the asset hosting feature of Code Penn. Which is it's like. Kinda bad right now like functional and you can upload files and use them which is the crux of it but there's just so much the world has just moved on and as far as like the how good you can make that experience and that can be a lot better. So we're doing it and he had to. There's there's Wa fork in the road to different story. Took different forks for one. We ended up picking this software called sorry mark. I'm just taking down on Weird Road here. Yeah called file stack. If you've ever seen file stack it's like a frigging super nice Uploading experience that it's like drag and drop react component. But it's just vanilla too. It's like if you want to upload a file you could build out your whole. Ui or you could just load. This thing in. This thing is like so wicked fully featured up loader machine and there's other competitor there's freeware and stuff but they do such a good job that it's like sometimes it just makes sense to use the thing that just kicks ass at this one job fine. There's that fork in the road. Where instead of rolling our own remove a thousands of lines of code to use some other thing but that you know so. That's the like I did the opposite of what they would normally do. I guess but then we're like you know what we really need like good search for assets to because theoretically people have tens hundreds some users have thousands of assets they need to search through and find them search can be easy or hard you know you could just like mark was going to use it. I don't know. Pm install search thing. I don't know there's probably something that does a good job with this and our assumption while building it was going to use this thing fused J. S. F. U. S. E. DOT J s and it kind of looks awesome. It's like a really well done kind of like just NPR. Install it or even just use it in the browser search library and you know some of its core functionalities that can do stuff. That would be hard to write from scratch like fuzzy search. You know like when you spell something wrong. It's still finds the thing that you spelled it correctly but there were like. We don't have a lot of evidence that anybody needs that plus it's meant to like deep search within like Jason Records or where like largely just searching the name of a file? There's nothing deeper to search than that with an asset for us so like writing like a couple of lines of code and raw javascript. That's just like I don't know just match lower case the string and spilt around that you know so it turn it turn from what could have been tens of kilobytes of Javascript. Power search is not like a couple of lines. And that's the other fork in the road. Don't MPM install something depends on which fork you take well. And then when you install that big monolithic thing. It's like yeah it does that thing. Well and now you're operating within the confines of like what configuration they have and like. Then you're building your stuff on top of their API's and then when you come back to two years later three years later. What if that company is defunct or N. B. M. All all the? Api's are different and the thing the here doing in the past doesn't work today. And so I. I don't know I've been bitten so many times over the years over that kind of stuff so I think front of Masters like as a company were very much build it. You know if we have to use one little library fine. That's that's fine right bill and then when you come back to a year later you know some part of the code that you haven't touched a while it's like there's no. Mpm install like it just works and just everything works. Open the file. Write your code and you're done and it's like I build a dashboard system. You know in like a couple of days because I just like imported the Java scrip- that I needed and then just dropped in like it was like fifty year hundred lines of code and basically pulled in all of the functionality from the site into like one user dashboard and it took I mean it was. It was scary fast. 'cause it's just like it's all just little javascript modules. You include what you need. And then you're good works in is it part of that probably comes from the age of your company or knowing experience that you have and the length and the fact that you want to be around ten years from now and stuff right. We're not built to sell or something like that. Yeah like this you know. We picked this file stack thing because it just seems like industry best of kind of uploading experience and you have a lot of control over you can just throw that script on the page and upload a file an it'll put it on its CDN for you and you're like how cool is that. You know like I literally spent five minutes and now even upload Earth thing but not only it doesn't upload to them but then as you know the S. three bucket well of course. It has all that capability though. You know but it's probably you know I don't know 10x more complicated. Not More complicated. It just takes longer and it's more fiddly and stuff to get it uploading to ask three bucket. But we have to do that. We can't I can't choose Zek and then be like Just use their cdn. Whatever for our user hosted assets like that's not an acceptable thing because it's like who knows what happens to that company. It looks good now but yeah who knows. I mean even the tools that we use the T try. It's like we used a thing called punked and it's like it was down for a long time and then who knows if it still exists. Whatever you know. And so like we code penalized for a lot of our stuff. Because we know it's Waltham around for a while right right Chris Right God Dang in so an even longer after it sells Microsoft just collect. I wouldn't blame you at the same time if you looked into something. I'm not telling you to switch. I'm going to keep this damn thing alive for the rest of my life if I can hand if I can do but I you know having that kind of mental process of being like what can we trust and what what can we do you know. We're uploading new an S. three bucket. That's there's still an assumption there. Th- The assumption is that S. Three buckets stick around forever to now. That seems like a safer assumption because Amazon is just so giant and Yada Yada at some point. You GotTa just place your bet right. Please place your bets in the places that feel instinctually good to you and that there's some proof that are good and right and I hope to prove that every day echoed Ben. I'm proving it by doing it anyway. Yeah I mean we use aws as well on but like even our infrastructure co or you know our back end code our API. It's all go and it's again very minimal libraries and so Yeah it's just incredibly scalable and wiki building all this really complex stuff on the back end on you know again. I principles really simple to the metal code and you know it. Just kind of The that kind of mindset is on the back end as well as the front end and so we're able to build you know incredible stuff Like Qa tools custom processes for production Like courses player is custom And now we're rebuilding like a whole custom Kodak pipeline which is gonNA reduce like our videos by ninety percent and up the quality hitting. Yeah so it's just I. I don't know I just really really liked that. First Principles thinking thinking long term building modules that are with minimal dependencies. And just kind of but yeah. I don't know we've it's interesting. The urine go. We can't like co-founder Alex's all writing a bunch of our crap and Goni just like can't shut up about it just reckon loves it so fast. Yeah yeah that's our our CTO. He's kind of like my exact counterpart in the back in like everything that I care about on the front end. He doesn't care about everything he cares about on the back end. I don't care and so it's it's like just you know and we've worked together for like and it's like fifteen years now we've worked together on through. He hired me originally on some consulting projects and then I hired him and then eventually built front of Masters and he's our CTO but he really has that exact same approach on the back end whereas like other engineers W- why don't we bring in this other thing. He's like well you know it's doesn't fit are used as like just build the thing just do it and now works and it will work forever and we can build on top of it and it's by the way it's like you know x amount of times faster and so he's the exact kind of mindset of the back end you know as I am on the front end and so it's it's really fun. I have a friend who does back end stuff and he was Kinda. He was sore saying like his last. Five years of his career has been like dependency. Hell you know like just managing dependencies like Oh God that one broke That now that's a fire. That's so he's kind of been stripping his down to like. We don't do like mega dependency trees. You know like he's just. He's his kind of architecture. Senses has been built off of like. Oh I've seen that go really bad so you scaled-down you build your own thing. No secret black boxes all that absolutely. Yeah that said this file stack. Looks Good Chris? Oh God this should just try it. It's amazing I mean just for the people out there too. It's not only like you. Get this uploaded then is Just has really good like drag and drop support. I mean just that alone like tried to hand codes file drag and drop. It's not you can do it like we have it. Live and production on code pen right now. But it's a little buggy. It's a little pain in the ASS. It's just to get it really right as hard all about abstracting that problem to somebody else in. But it's not just that then the upload an image and you say oh how about you do just opened the cropping tool on crop it right while you're in there or why don't you optimize it while you're in there and make sure it's being served in the right format or how about you upload it from dropbox so just here's a dropbox picker right inside of it and you just get all that for free. Come on and that's like tenth of it and then you send it through a workflow on its way out in the workflows like okay. Well it needs to be six hundred pixels when it's when it's put where it is because it's being used in this e mail whatever and you know make apply of monochrome filter to it and then put it in this. S. Three bucket but run it through this other service. I fancy crap like that so so cool and this episode of Shop Talk. Show is brought to you in part by. Aws amplify you know aws right Amazon web services powers. Most of the Internet. It feels like there's a ton of things that go into. Aws Bucket like EC. Two allows you to spin up servers of your choice as all kinds of configuration and like S. three is for file. Storage and lamb does for running cloud functions all kinds of stuff that individual. You can set up and use in our great but there's so much more than that you know there's a ton of different things. Aws Aws amplify is kind of a package of tools to help you build full stack apps for the web. So it's like I don't know it. Just give me the stuff that I need that. Usually you need to build an APP so amplify is hosting you need hosting it's got it's got off indication for Loggins for your users graph Q. L. As a first class citizen is the thing I want to run some code in the cloud to hit. Api's and do whatever else. I need to and has got file storage if you need it. It's got machine learning stuff in there if you need it so amplify this easy to use full stack framework for getting started with quick with building. Web APPs is really cool. The oth- stuff alone is cool. Just a few lines of code in their graphs. Culas taken over the world of how to get things from database put things back in a database really front end development friendly way to do database stuff. Love graph just built in as a first class citizen. It's the scalable. Api You just just. You don't have to provision your own servers that just does it up for you Pretty cool so. Aws amplify is really cool. Definitely worth checking out especially as a front end developer so check all that out. Okay just to talk some questions for mark on the way I I would assume that you get some pressure for multiple sites is on what to do next although it sounds like you have an awful lot of direct control over what you're going to produce next but our our line. I was doing those two pressures are like from companies. Maybe they're already your customers or maybe they're people just kind of suggesting to you that this is what the they wish developers new and then the students themselves they WanNa know specific thing. So where's most of that? Come from yeah Since we're pretty much you know a business term beat AC- like directly to our customer. No like we. We do have like You know maybe a thousand teams on there. So there is quite a few like large companies On there as well but primarily. You know it's it's developers that are subscribing out of their own pocket and so they definitely like will be very very active like in in support. We have like a question. Mark on the site of people can talk to us. I mean we've had tens of thousands of interactions with customers who are very like even the developers do customer service so it's a collaborative effort Talking with people and fixing the site and and taking their needs and putting it into the platform and so we're really You know everything that we do like our road map Everything is taking account like those. You know tens of thousands of conversations. Whether it's you know things that we record or features we add. It's like people are asking all the time like you have so many courses. How do I pick which one is is right for me at the time? And so we put together learning has and those learning paths curated pass through our courses and that like solved just an unreal amount of support requests. So now we have a lot of stuff with team building and all that kind of stuff and so we're building like our team management process from scratch from first principles. Everything has cost him. Everything is you know. And so it's GonNa work really really smoothly for you know being able to onboard your teams in that kind of thing. So it's a you know. I know it's a roundabout way of answering your question. But the point is like talking to customers hearing their needs. I mean they'll they'll ask for something like thousands of times. And you know it's for me it's like you know We do have a couple of advisers who also are teachers and they you know we kind of review. You know open proposals but we'll get you know hundreds of proposals for every five or ten that we record so there's a lot of inbound interest from teachers. I wish we could record them all but I think it's a mix of like who is well known for that who is really kind of has a pulse on that particular community and And then the actual demand for the topic and so they're things like accessibility which I find are really important that we include in the library and you know I think are important as well as you know like design for developers these kinds of topics but there well. Yeah that was sort of her stuff is more popular but I would say that like there are topics. Were you know doing that? First Principles Thinking like maybe they're not going to be the most popular but they'll live for a long time they'll be really valid for a really long time and They're important and I think they're important. So yeah it's definitely where like maybe on the slower end when it comes to like the the latest hot new redwood framework or whatever. You know awesome. That's cool like screen. Casts will go like screen out sites will go crazy on all the latest newest stuff and like I'm I'm waiting for that like productions story. It's like would I recommend that somebody actually go through the time to learn this to build this like in a production sentence. So you know a lot of the things like you know You know even like everybody had hooked stuff before us but then it was like no. We're going to wait and see like until it's really like in production production story. It's not Betas Not Alpha. It's not whatever like okay. Now is the right time to do a full. You know hooks training our full You know whatever and so interesting. It's it's a little bit different mindset. I'm going for like you don't think that's slowness has any has any negative business impact. I mean this is a cliche example. Was a little bit like Apple. Right there. Never I out of the gate. But they're like one once they way in then you know that that's like important that they're going to do it well or whatever at least that's exactly. Yeah so we'll never be the first out of the gate to get like the latest suspense thing in react. Or whatever like you gotTa wait I duNNo. It's we've gotta wait until they're you know there's real companies shipping large scalable apps on the stuff and then we'll do the latest hottest newest. React thing right yeah like I. How do you deal with like old libraries? Like view I know is gonNa make a jump from like two to three and it's probably a significant enough change or rack has hooks now and in everyone's supposed to be doing hooks you know. How do you with a like handle these stale? Yeah I mean with the hook stuff and even with like state management Just in general that problem in react there is the class based version that a lot of companies are deploying and have deployed out there and so we do have to cover that interstate management chorus both ways of. Here's how you manage state in such state. Here's how you manage it with hoax. And kind of covering both paradigms with you know you have to take the entire course but if you want to understand the entire surface area of managing state and react you need both perspectives and so with with view your exam coming to your example of the view view to is a stable. Api It's a stable set of API's and so we're not gonNA do view You know we're not gonNA worry about that course of updating at every six months or something like that but now view three is is getting to the point where it's You know people are using it and they're using it in production and it's getting to the point where you know there's enough community adoption like at that point You know once we see in production quite a bit and you know we're in touch with the team. Were in touch with the core team of all of these libraries and so You know like Sarah. Drastic doesn't hurt Jasmine's on the view team. And so you know. She says that view three isn't ready which she did. We got the day we were going to do the training and she said it's not ready you know and we set the date and we're going to do the training and they said it's not ready and so yeah. I mean to your point Chris. It's like from a business perspective. You know in the short term. Does it hurt us when know floods of people go and learn the latest hottest newest thing on the next on whatever screen casts site or you know On view three people are doing stuff on all of these screen casts sites. But we're GONNA you know we're going to be a little bit behind them and that's that's okay. It's like flood. Learn all the latest newest things great but like we have companies that are relying on us for their you know their production decisions of what stuff they're going to build and it's not just companies but individual careers and I think it's it's really It's great to experiment with the latest hottest newest thing. But you know it's the bleeding edge right and I can cut you and I. I don't feel like that's responsible. Approach to education is just go go go go. Just put it out there and and let everybody flood and like make the money. It's just no that's that's not real development You know that's cool for a side project development or little things like brand new start-up ideas or whatever if you wanna do that great but like you know these. Are you know Engineers at all of the top. You know pretty much any company you use their product. We have customers there and it's I mean it's sort of saying that some education can be dangerous that can be detrimental. Feel like if you yeah. That's that's wild. Absolutely I feel. I think it's irresponsible to be out there and just be like no. This is ready today and like check this out and you know just for views and it's I don't know it to me. It's I understand it right. Everybody's gotTa Make Money. Everybody's gotTa get an audience. Everybody's got up you know go for it But you know so. I don't you know I'm not trying to put other people down but at the same time I'm just saying our approaches a lot more laid back watch watch. The community is the community. Adopting and building real APPS is there real production story. Okay now let's now Dig Our heels in and might be the difference between long-term and short-term plays too. You know like that that's your fluffy to development but that then that leaks its way into being. What's your philosophy for the business as well exactly right. Like zero people have left the team like and when we hire somebody. I mean not to say that every not leave at some point but I mean the point is like the one. We're thinking about a new hire. Were Not oh man This person's GonNa come out and then they're gonNA leave a year. We gotta get them in there and building stuff in and you know like you know as fast as possible and extract as much as possible. It's like no let's. Let's have a really awesome epic of benefits and let's really think about in months to like you know talk with people and figure out the right role and then let's like enable them to really feel like part of the team and so it's not you know it's not just like People building little small one off things like everybody has a massive impact on the company and are taking large chunks of the business and of the software and building and everybody in the company can write code even down to our video producer. Who said he would never write? Code like you know is Was able to write some. Css just like Obi S.'S. You know software so easy so we have the right configuration for our buttons and stuff on on the video software. And so it's like you said that long term thinking about every aspect whether it's the education wanting the courses to live a long time Whether it's the team whether it's you know the teachers or even the things that we sponsor it's like we've been sponsoring Cooper Press Java script weekly and all that kind of stuff for man. It's almost like seven years now and that kind of long term thinking I think I don't know unfortunately like not. Everybody can operate in that environment because a lot of the things that you know. We're building as engineers are being built to sold in like feces. Backed Gogo like us. Whatever get it out there So it sounds like a confident business strategy for one thing but yet the same time you write blog posts. That are like they might. My plan is to try to not screw up and you know I'm sure you have a healthy level of of worry about this like we all do. Yeah I mean the yeah. The current situation is really interesting because you know our entire model about the way that we record is relying on. You know this Nice Person Studio with all this equipment and the people in the you know people in the classroom and interacting with the teacher and so we're having to build basically the business up from the ground at you know The entire way that record and The you know this team that I mentioned like everybody's here for the long haul and so we're thinking long term and we're building like the most epic production setup. It just looks amazing. And you know it has all the characteristics you'll be able to. What are you GonNa do put a box together with all this tripods and cameras and stuff and ship it to somebody here. Use exactly like it's it's a it's a massive. You know it's like basically you have to build like you know walls behind you and there's the podium and then there's you know all the lighting is like leaked and we've got cad model of like where everything needs to be in But like as an instructor like the instructing expands you plug NBA HD and teach right. And and that's it and and like you focus on the people that you're teaching and so that's really what we're brains. This is like you know. We have a laptop were included in the K. Is like all the production equipment that does everything locally and so that we're able to run the show and You know be able to manage the whole ab stuff remotely so it's useful now because whatever corona virus but is it but do you think it's going to continue to be useful after that has passed and it'll be like you might get some teachers that you couldn't have got otherwise just because just for business reasons they're like. I don't know I don't feel like coming to Minneapolis so sorry. Yeah well absolutely. Like the especially the international audience It's a little bit more cumbersome to fly you know Fourteen hours to to the studio and so I think especially they're like but This is spin in the business plan for three and a half years to have this remote Recording setup for various reasons Being able to try things and and do a lot of these trainings Before coming in doing the full in-person studio You know that was kind of the plan for years and years that I pitched the teachers and they just you know really wanted the in-person expands and I think there's there's a lot of benefits You know I don't WanNa promise on a on a podcast you know our future or whatever or Pigeonhole us but certainly like this is this is stuff. We thought about for years and years and years. It's just that having this environment you know. Kind of continues to accelerate things You know in that direction where we now are. Im- im- person studios shut down so we have to completely go all hands on deck. You know all our entire team and All rains infrastructure. You know were taking again. That first principles approach to this and It's silicon really good and I'm I'm really excited. But but certainly it's. It's super unfortunate circumstances that this is you know what's forcing us to You know to move in this direction. I I wish it was kind of like. I don't know my gut feeling is. It doesn't sound like much of a gamble. I mean you know ten times more than I do but it's like you were planning on doing it anyway. It's on the surface. Seems like a good idea. It just opens up doors for you. It's it's you know it's a lot better situation than if you sell burritos. That's for sure 'cause you kinda screwed right now at least you. At least this was somewhere near never liked to be forced. You know like having that long term you know kind of mindset. I never liked to be forced to be reactionary. Right it's right you know I just don't like I don't make the best decisions when I'm reactionary and so the thing that gives me peace like I said that it's been on the road map. It's something we plan to do anyways. Now we're just you know we're executing on it today rather than a couple of years or two three years and so yeah I mean the the biggest thing for us is you know. Are we able to educate more people more deeply like that? Is the mission of the company. And you know numbers have never been higher as far as people using the system in a per user. It's like fifty percent per user. Like I mean people are using the heck out of Fronta Masters Right now and So our mission is able to you know continue to educate more people more deeply. And that's super awesome that we're able to you know like you said if you're selling burritos or something. You and your mission is related to like food quality and delivering the Best Britos or whatever but like in our case still delivering education. Educating more people more deeply like we're able to do that in this environment and will create new ways and innovative ways of of being able to produce that result of educating more people more deeply in this new environment and so for us yeah it no matter what happens like that's the mission. We're doing it. We're continuing to do it. And that's our measure of success. And so yeah. So what's coming? What they what people want. And what are you GonNa? What are you GONNA do? Do you? interesting news to drop for upcoming courses. Irv Right now. It's yeah right now. It's it's completely all about this new production process so I mean our first our first test is gonNA be or I shouldn't say tests. Are I run? It's not going to be a test. That's going to be production. Run on. We'll be with Brian Holt Since he's been training with US forever and has a lot of popular courses He's a really fun one to work with on new stuff and so we're going to be doing a building a digital game again principles building. I think he's GonNa build it and react but they'll show like a that'll be like a A Demo of of how to assemble this stuff together and we'll give the asset so people can you know build their own version of the game in whatever technology they want to and so that'll be fun new experiment But yeah we have all sorts of stuff lined up like a state. Machines are big right now People are you know it's kind of an old concept state machines But people are applying it with X. Stay and being able to visualize your state machines and that kind of stuff which is really really interesting You know obviously view. Three is big We just dropped machine learning Which was totally new for us. And it's it's on on interesting so those those seem big enough to be up your alley you know little. It's still new but it's not you know it's so big that it's like that'll that's gonNA stick around for sure and I can imagine something like state machines who I don't know what your three understanding of them is but man if I read about them seem talks about them edited blog posts about them. Like I feel like I've like I've spent plenty of time with state machines and I'm still a little like I don't get it and so a good course might be the thing that cracks that are. I could see that being like I don't know my I mean David's going to be building a sorry interrupted you know. He's going to be building the state machines with pure Java scripts so before introducing other libraries. So it'll be interesting. Yeah I mean that's like the moment where you're like. I don't know maybe your company decides that you're GonNa start using them on your nervous for a minute. That might be a trigger pulling moment for you. Buying a course like that. Be like okay. I am actually going to sit and learn this for real. You know absolutely. That's where all this like online education stuff like like an actual course not not just like twenty you tubes that they watched in the playlist or something Seems valuable because I do client services so I I. I'm on a project for however many months and then I like that project ends and I take a deep breath. I'm like Oh God what do I need to know next or or something like that is it. Do you have a way to answer that question? Like what do I learn next or the learning paths? Come into play. And so if you go to front of MASTERS DOT COM SLASH LEARN. You can kind of see. We have like You know a beginner path. Professional Path an expert path. And that's kind of like in general the best practices of the day. Kind of like interweaving. Everything from you know see us as the Javascript to react to type scope to all all sorts of stuff right like the entire industry whereas we have specific learning paths which are dedicated to just javascript or justice or just You know individual things so yeah the the top has like. Yeah if you WANNA learn full stack. There's a path for that Or if you're designer learning to code that's like a specific path and so those kind of higher level pass encompass all the technology and then like the specific deep dives are into like very specific frameworks. Or you know Languages or whatever so we'll be continuing to build those out. I'm excited bill out like we. We actually have several python courses now. you know with several graph. Q. L. courses that can be an entire path and then we have an entire like whole library of functional programming in Java script now from like basics all the way up to the hardcore functional kind of Haskell style functional and so like as we get enough courses that kind of fit together and pass and we kind of talk to the teachers like this before yours. This'll be after yours and like so they can kind of like make sure there's not too much overlap. Some overlap is okay but To build out learning paths and putting them together also like exposed that all we have this whole here like I feel like our CSS stuff isn't isn't fully comprehensive. Like I I really WanNa build out a full kind of nuts to bolts all the way to building like you know what we just did a pattern. Library Design Systems. Yeah it used to be called pattern libraries. Now they're called design systems but like a whole Designs I duNNo. I Dunno careful there mark. Okay this is not my area. Did you try how Yeah Design Systems. We just we recorded it. It's not automatic but at school like what people are doing with story book and You know component izing all of their kind of designs and tasty mountain so I think yeah. It's it's interesting to see with those learning paths. Like what our gaps are. I'm very I feel like I'm very well aware or like in our customers will write in like I went from this course that this course and there's this giant gap and I had to learn over here so elect we're constantly like reassessing and making sure that things are you know up today Yeah so what I'm hearing you say is you need to people who are pretty good. Css to fill in some CSS gaps. Is that right? Yeah this whole podcast is actually pitched comment each. That's the only want to do it. I'm nervous that I don't have like a a thing to teach people right now like I know like just like day. I know tons of crap about building websites and I teach you about it by teaching these little bite size. Chunks that workshops always make me feel nervous and like I don't know if I have anything workshop worthy you know I did. One did one workshop about eight years ago. And I'm still sweating. I I'd like the approach that you're taking with your screen. Cast taking like a a specific kind of thing. And then you're you're you're building and you're like this is the way I would build it. And then here's some other ways that I could accomplish the thing and I think that you know I've I've just like kind of your mindset or thinking behind you know how you're kind of through different you know like oh. I could do it this way. Oh this isn't working like you know. I know that these tools exist and so I don't know I know there's something there Chris. I know I know you mean. I wonder if like piecing smaller bits all because you know who like the building a game thing. That's what's intimidating because it's like not only is that you need to build and build and build and build and build and then at the end you have a game to be perfectly honest. My brain sometimes loses interest in that are like you can't jump to video nine because in video seven they did all the asset management. Or some things you can watch. I think most people do prefer that because then the end product is so I don't know whereas I wondered. I definitely doesn't divide all courses so we have like three different styles and I don't WanNa get into too deeply but There is the building entire APP over a day approach. That's what you're talking about. You can't jump in Towards the middle or the end but there are like component ties. Courses like for instance. We did complete in shorter react in the building apps style but then we did intermediate react in. The Component is world. Where you you start from the same code base you you add you know You add a see US library. Whatever or you then you reset and then you had type script and then you reset and then you add unit testing and then you reset and so like each part of the courses own module that you can just take that module and so there are like there are different approaches were. It doesn't have to build on you. Know prior knowledge throughout the entire course there are courses that are just a series of. Here's something that you can do. Here's something that you can hear something that you can do. But it's just kind of under collection inside is probably the approach that you should take is is You know having these kind of micro examples that kind of if you look at zoom out and look at all of them like they kind of encompass Specific larger area. But you know each individual modules is a little bit different. Yeah that's definitely how I think so might work just work my work. Well gotTA gotta you gotTa worry Okay Dave do you have any final words Aaron? No I think that's great. I think a thanks for coming on especially in this new normal in all that like a learning online is kind of the only way you can do it and Appreciate you sharing your perspective on all this. It's really helpful. And hopefully people kind of get ideas and get inspired to pick some something up if obviously they have the ability but Mark I guess for people who aren't following you in giving you money. How can well yeah? Twitter dot com slash front masters. Is Everything about the business and then twitter dot com slash one? Marcy is my twitter Which is becoming more infrequent as I focused more and more on the business on the team whatever but I duNno. I might experiment with some Like VR streaming. That's kind of what have been into lately as virtual reality and maybe I'll do some streaming there so you can follow me. They're awesome. Well thank you. And thank you dear listener for downloading this in your pocket Heart favoring up fine That's how people find out about this show False on twitter at shop. Talk Show for tens of tweets a month. If you hate your job Talk Show Dot com slash jobs and get a brand new because people want hire people like you in Christie anything else. You'd like to say you jump talk. Show DOT com.

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