Diving Into Forehand Evolution


Get everybody welcome to the tennis podcasts. My Name's Glen Hill I'm jake of Meyer and this morning we're going to try something a little bit print format wise from how we've typically being recording we've done a lot of focus on these smaller more digestible very subjects between us we've been struggling with really making the podcast fit into the bigger picture up until this point has been in making sure that some of these topics about the game really are digestible and just personally is facebook across email and obviously across the people that were actually coaching on a regular basis absolutely so today what we were to the ball I mean I know that if I go to my local pro nonspecific I'm going to Cavalli or whatever and then you take video and show it to them and I just love that moment where they're like oh I really was doing the thing that you've been telling me for the lower the question that I would ask you then is what do you think I mean if we go back thirty forty years right going to do is talk about the evolution of the forehand in coastal last thirty forty years of of tennis her tactical tennis and everything else that we're doing with social media with emails and with coaching and so it's role to examine these changes so let me just jump in and ask you this then from from the beginning our that I've been doing this often this often this disconnect right and so I think that this there's obviously being changes it has the forehand really changed in the last thirty years yeah I mean I think we would both agree that the shifts in strategies and techniques for about the full hand groundstrokes and seven volleys just using the forehand as kind of the focal point or the V seems like it's an appropriate time to go deeper and see you know let's kind of open the best up and let it be a little bit more free ranging here's essentially the same things that I heard thirty years ago Jacob there are people out there who still think the earth is flat and we never landed on the moon NC If that fits about Aaron allows us to deliver a better overall package across instagram across twitter across mostly at the professional level and when I say that I think that really what we what we really WanNa do explore some of the really big update doesn't mean it's true and we've both worked with players who will tell you like absolutely guarantee that they're doing X. on their full hand with their says open air tennis so for me I think about it as and I- disclaimer ear fashion and to me that has really dramatically changed especially ever since guys are playing with wooden rackets how would you describe the forehand back then Y'all so I think that's probably a good idea I almost think about it like how's the forehand even changed anywhere that we have access to video of anyone which probably goes back a little bit more than thirty years but I kind of think of we watched Federer takeout Sampras at Wimbledon it was like this huge moment of what is this guys name and or hop on like CDC on facebook and people post great stuff all the time but for me the way that I have digested that is make those things true you're going to open right there yeah I know I it's not to ridicule anybody but the point is just because you believed and I guess in the nineties which was really hard to get back in the nineties now it's a lot easier just hop on youtube and find all sorts of stuff right I'm not that old I'm not sixty five years old so I wasn't there is just got really interested in looking at this film changed a lot of some people would say no I mean fundamentally it's the same load high you hit through the ball you stephanie three years or four years beforehand and there were some changes the grass was slowing down etc etc but clearly roger is able to do things that we just hadn't seen people do in one package on a consistent basis absolutely game that was different yeah and I think that that that Sampras federal matches a great reference because why does it have to ours in it and what what is he doing like right but I think that probably most people watching that was is coming through and I it was most probably less about a wow this this this federal guys doing different stuff right that's right of course that's comical at this point because even though he retired soon after that after he was able to win another slam signed the typical changing of the God you know San Francis- getting older the new young guys coming through and I think back then it was much more that to me is what spoke to the it was symptomatic that there was something fundamental about his approach to the and how heavy was the average professional tennis racket in nineteen sixty this is hugh even bring that up right because we're talking about house beforehand evolved what makes you go to the equipment so early in this conversation as we see these two generations of four hands in that match where Pete's kind of sitting on the cost of this is I think that the equipment really was a or changes it equipment was were driving numbers turning points in transition appoint for from a linear to rotational forehand. But maybe let's back up just a moment because to put all of this in context Cavalli was was very prevalent strategy all these things lead to the I I wouldn't say the adoption off people you'd that loss and Federer's win much more as an age thing as Sampras getting old so his performances declining the new young hungry his I feel like there is this really route direct philosophy of trying to make a straight line to contact in hitting threw the ball in this list and then once we started to see the shift at the professional level of equipment from the wooden rackets over to the metal and then quickly to gratify eh but it really clear to some of us like Pete was still heading the same unbelievable serves that he was hitting a year or two years tousands in one thousand nine hundred sixty there would rackets and they way four hundred forty grams they were sixteen ounces forces that that changes are are significant I mean he carries all throughout the chain so a and and that's a good point I remember even listening to some of the commentary where it's always going to be able to win again you know he's getting towards the end of his career if I had grown up in only played with the wood is outrageous I know for fact that I never the inability so you know it's an interesting question to me because like I can pick up a would back and then you wait a little while and see plays that grew up with the newer technology and then we start to see this massive change and so I think that when we look at that would would've figured that out I right I would have been I would have been focused on basically making sure my armed and now and I can swing it almost the same way that I would swing the racquet that I actually play with which is a Zeus three hundred five grand racket era and the fact that the athletes back then weren't doing the same kind of strength and conditioning work and training that the athletes now how tennis evolve because we saw the forehand remain largely the same for very long period of time for decades doing and then you're swinging super heavy piece of wood and trying to be athletic and the colts were you know there's a lot more gross back bands bracket right now but the idea that I would have been able to develop the swing that I have now amount of establishing a couple more points around that because one of the big differences between tennis now in tennis Dan is the equipment I tried everything I could and I would essentially trying to innovate a bunch of things right and I would copy the guys on TV the AD slice very little wrist movement Because I think you know when you when you start accelerating record that fast and you haven't hey if I give myself some benefit of the doubt than I'd like to say yes there's obviously a really strong chance that no I never but I mean rodgers is thirty eight and still competing for slams and we are talking about Pete thirty like Dan the guy's just botched up you've got and and it's a problem right like the heavier stuff that you're swinging pasta certain point than the more it becomes a problem as far as just how you would describe the hand you know thirty years ago and you said it very linear like the idea of driving through the ball and I think that's that's worth revisiting for you grew up like Pete Sampras or like an Agassi or like a Jimmy with a really heavy stick like that because I mean guys like on a ton of conditioning work I don't know Jake what do you think about that and the shoulder and the research right yeah let's obviously in my wheelhouse so that's gone down a couple of announces which may not seem like much but when you're when you're swinging at extension to big deal but the lot the force is the that's right I mean they were a pound and you know obviously that has gone down and dropped by a hundred grams we're having conversations with the guys that were you know middle aged that loved that frame but as like dude your forearm is three times Donovan Age and you're able to find a way to do that early I think all the rest of us it hit US pretty quickly like for five years I think when the rackets were that heavy was apparent early enough on unless less intuitively as an athlete we knew there's no way I'm going to be able to do this whether we were thinking for five sats or whether we were thinking for my health look at less as a an injury thing for most people that's that's kind of dissuading them from attempting chew much experimental Oh bit anyway But I just know like even swinging the t two thousand just thinking about it hurts my elbow in different this a drive to try something new and I know that when I was a kid I did try different things but fall off before I was twenty one we would you even thought about that well would've thought about it like that my reservation is that you know this about me right like I have a healthy disrespect for authority and at a healthy respect for authority as well that I had to learn over time in that really lends itself the more I think the maintenance of is very linear swing strategy right I'm GonNa just get the racket behind the ball and drive straight through the ball and a lot of regional graphite So I was in that sort of era generation even though that racket lasted a long time but even then I was the tended to happen was to me I stock with the strategies and the things that what those were the things that you come back to me the kid only weighed forty pounds writing any swinging around that racket so unless you're that strong at that of to to a lot of experimentation bright so I experimented with a Lotta stuff I mean I grew up playing really and truly with the principal Dole in all these guys in so I think I was Kinda dumb enough that I would have tried to do things with the would because I kind of did that a little I think that there's very much a way in which if you are looking around and you're seeing the other people that are successful whether it's on television the size of mine they'd be like you your little pip squeak you know but like that conversation is still in my head right so there's some part where like I remember having conversations when we were kids well I mean at that point I was I was a teenager when we were the T. two but I remember maybe you discover something new that works you and you you hold onto it but then even then you still would seek out some other different way of doing things and most people stop trying yeah and they move on or they retreat back to the thing that has given them success that's right that's right and right but this is one of the reasons we're doing new format so that's really changed because basically when we had this shift from let's let's call it out of wood because there's clearly a time when we left wood frames and we were experimenting with different materials this kind of socks I mean this this is hard this isn't going to work I think that the not working thing is key but to me we're just locally you know your local club champion or whatnot you're going to inherently use them Una Vez touchtone or right it didn't go just would aluminum graphite there's other stuff in there too you know we don't have to get into fiber glass and ceramics and all that kind of stuff but and then since then so we can go all the way back to the eighties with the the prestige and the original graphite etc Asian on I think you really onto something about the experimentation I mean everybody does that when their kids right some people more than others but there's that drive to try something ahead I would find old film and get the Old VHS tapes from old Wimbledon matches and swing like Johnny Mack and Jimmy Connors in part we have better quality control and we can make that stronger so therefore we're able to make it with less and therefore later but really difficult than I think most very quick to abandon even the idea of it because it just doesn't work very well and when you're when you try something new or it doesn't get results that's all driven because the major manufacturers right now I mean I have to hold out Zeus guys obviously but the major jay or swinging wood wooden rackets that way a pound with their four years old right there four years old okay like that's raise ginning because that's what everybody was teaching all the players were doing by and lodge then then you try something different with this really heavy frame that's very so what we get is cheaper and cheaper frames that are using less and less graphite now in some ways the graphite is better quality diffic- topics and today we wanted to do something a little more in depth yeah so I think one of our priorities were driven as as a culture to make something that was better okay eventually that settled on graphite being the best material so you know what when when we think about that than there is a switch to you know the metal rackets and then very quickly graphite and then manufacturer's right now or focused on gyping profitable do not show do not they're not focused on China and make the best quality orioles and and they're really how they how strong they were able to make this stuff and over the years this is a complete tangent get from the store was still weighing in let's say above three thirty it's not it wasn't made the way since then the industry hasn't done that and they're focused essentially on being able to manufacture that stuff in maximize profits really what was happening was the industry was trying to break ground and really improve words to ninety to ninety coming out of the factory was well that comes down to the manufacturing and the material dumb kid that would say like though like I wanna play with the t two thousand right like I wanNA try the long bodies I wanna try the rip sticks I WanNa like the model on which we start trying to do different things and if I've learned in a very linear strategy from the very what you are capable of doing with a racket so they were trying to come up with something new right like the industry was being innovative and the original rate because we just have the ability to make better stuff but you actually have a lot less material in say a frame that what do you see happening next will grefe really change things right I mean even the graphite back then was heavier than what it is now you get off the assembly line right now versus a frame that would have come off in nineteen eighty nine nineteen ninety-one Joe and that's that's because so I mean if you remember like pizza racket was prostaphane he had it waited up when we know that but even the off the shelf stuff that you would just go got the count right so one thing just interject they really interesting too I mean I think a pot of status well was a sense of familiarity to customers I mean when the back and that tiny had and you know with the the switch to graphite I think there was a a sense of keeping also may be a sense or that feeling of not two thousand came out first medal racket I mean it's made of metal they could've shaped however they wanted but they still followed the wooden racquet format of that really long Skinny Nad Industry and engineers that actually have to figure out how to make these graphite frames right so happens is there becomes an established conversation now between certain people in the tennis in now all the sudden on more widespread scale you have engineers that have a physics background able to do either and so they had a different set of skills but they ended out coming they ended up yielding the fact that these kids had learned from you know age seven or whatever to age fourteen they were able to handle the pace has the level that took you twenty years to learn how is that possible right these guys were still holding onto their their sudden were able to be really established guys in their late thirties and mid forties that were good players right I mean range but I think even just that initial weight loss on the graphite eventually I say eventually starts to change the way that maybe aren't so much you know great tennis players but they have a physics background saying things that are fundamentally tune physics like name of age while this shift was happening and so this is why we had thirteen fourteen and fifteen year old kids that all we kinda edged over this a moment ago but as we talk about the industry changing and the advent of graphite frames the other thing that a future generations play I think in part because of that innovation that drive to innovate and experiment and play around that kids have very similar levels of play even if the I I would say like the wisdom of the game wasn't really they're not like tactically old technique in literally a lot of them were playing with T. two thousands Brighton and they could precision that we didn't have at that age it's kind of neat being able to to grow with those guys short yeah I mean there's so many places we can go here right like we kind of they were able to return the surf's they were able to hit spins that were were greater than what those guys can handle and essentially they were able to do things they weren't a fourteen year old was a great player he couldn't dissect a game the same way but when they went out to-to-to we're able to play matches so it's it's they had a control to their game that we definitely didn't have right they were able to do certain things that we couldn't do but with the advent of the graphite frames with the graphite when I'm a kid and get to play around with Fairmont then what happens right so this is why you know I feel like I was lucky because I sort of right I mean if you're let me ask you this if I grow up with a wooden rack and I learned to play with the wooden racquet with a linear kind of swing strategy right so I mean we obviously do I mean we could talk for hours just on that statement but the point is that that's when it started so we shift down from would and we there's a lot of mass when we go to graphite and the guys that are actually working with had Wilson Prince etc to make the graphite frame are turning around and saying well you know mass equals power I think honestly like there's a question to me of how many in regards that played division one college really high level players at the time and what we were finding was oh now a fourteen or fifteen year old kid Asia and then when I'm twenty eight years old graphite comes out and it's just I don't WanNa go back and completely changed the way I play the game this is if I learned will the more mass you have in Iraq it the more power rackets going to have true all other things being equal of them were actually saying that I mean how many of a kind of physicists people really looking at that were a part of those conversations because I'm just who are well situated in terms of having host the educational background scientific knowledge and also I'm not convinced personally that there there's being really a ton of great science going on in the background when it comes to racket this nine for for the last study okay that's definitely true even now that's that's right that is not really the playing ability and anyone say ability I think maybe relevance because it's I know some players who still are using is a problem now okay people still talk about tennis but tennis oval was a much bigger problem years ago all of a sudden just playing tennis on the weekends like his arm was killing him it it's not that he understood what was that's what he did but he did it for ages and ages and ages but when he got to a certain age probably like early fifties late forties making it happen but he knew man it hurts to swing a hammer when I'm doing home improvements he'd go out to play and it wasn't just him but it was concern designed it's not like NASA sits down to design tennis rackets okay there was some some very bright people working on this stuff for sure and don't get me wrong about that right because you can imagine if you're a weekend warrior like my father was who played doubles every weekend with his group of guys that was just saying like if we look back over the industry in the last thirty forty years I I'm not convinced that there's I think part of this is maybe just that there's not that many people tweaking still looking for that those those little advantages and so that's going to also inform the way that we look at the Science Tennis Elbow these strategies in a great players you know there are sixty six years old and playing really good tennis still using all the strategies to modern tragedy obviously in my own game I'm trying to be still on the leading edge of where technique is going all his buddies except for the one guy that was lucky and everyone had like really bad tennis oboe or really bad Golfer's elbow and that was it will all of a sudden he could play again because it was two ounces lighter right and that two ounces was the difference between him being able to play and not that there was opportunities and began to tweak things right and so we if we look at his full hand we start to see elements for the first time Peter because I I there's some stuff I really want us to get to today and so when we're talking about the the estate a big deal and I think it still is but now I look at his forehead and see some other elements to this is the first time I see guys somebody at that level using almost unique time or moment in the generations because he bridges swinging swinging a sledgehammer is where I always joke about it right but you know Linda was interesting because I think he represents this genuine shift in technique because I think when when McEnroe comes along like Mac android still using a linear strategy paradigm to a rotational paradigm but he holds onto the idea that he really wants to swing the heaviest rocket he can't right and the thing the reason that that is so interesting is that those two things aren't necessarily coherent right so to who was very much I think driven to experiment even as an adult is very much driven to innovate even as Louis Class. Adopting new technologies tends not to change their technique very much and and we see this with Jimmy Connors right I mean he's using very linear swing strategies driving driven player and extremely dry yeah and so I think he adopted that he saw that with the new technology with graphite rackets you know what I tend risks lag but really letting there'd be a lot more movement in the wrist through the stroke well yeah he had to cause he and you can see it and so yeah he has lagged in some way you it wouldn't surprise me if he said well I'm I'm I'm trying to move my wrist as little as I can because he might actually be fighting really hard to be stable there and it's just evonne figure it out and this is where I mean remember right this is a guy that made so many finals of slams without winning one Oh hoot mentally is the first men's number one we see who we really start to see and and lentils and he's this is a baseline guy and and he's a baseline Guy an and they knew like I just couldn't do it without racket and so then when for him it was the Wilson Sting came out and became available you know they'll stepping stepping in driving through the ball But interesting to me and the person I think I want to pivot onto as a contrast Jimmy Connors is John Lennon some really strong elements of what I think of as the the next generation technique which is to shift from this linear he was just getting there and not when and you have to give him credit for innovating you did a a genuine strength and conditioning program on the men's side you know I mean he was a very I think it always struck me as very organized you're you're you're basically prioritizing the mass of your frame over the technique now and we say because you're saying read from some famous coach online here's how you do it and he just had to be willing to try things and work on tough because he's swinging pretty fast and he's swinging very heavy right now that being said I don't know I haven't to watch juniors to watch futures and I spend plenty of time in challengers right and plenty of time if the slams you know they're the Lens through which they've you equipment is going to be very different than the lens through which is Yolk with -ment 'cause I've really her being used by players that are very very top of the game and the thing that really I'd like to hear your thoughts on this the thing that struck me and I I used to look at this as as Galt which a lot of people leave behind but for him it why I never got the sense that with with lendl it was playful innovation the way that kids do it it was very but looking for guys maybe that aren't on the tour that aren't so the guy at the top of the game that figured out how to swing a heavy frame more quickly being able to play right so that doesn't mean that he played better right this was just changed the impact so I wanna I wanNA bring us back to the technique himself right like I don't think and hopefully I'm not doing a disservice to anyone here because I'm sure that he had relationships with people that were really himself this to me was real innovation or he had to experiment while he was still playing mind you while he's one of the best okay now obviously Tennessee he ended up winning more than one right the guy won a lot but there was a time when fort but I don't think will let's just say like this there was no internet it wasn't like he could just go online and easy to see that are doing things that look like oh man that guy might have figured something out and maybe he just doesn't have the right and he did it by using different techniques show so this is something that always players in the world he has to really experiment and find new ways to do things and so in my mind he's he's I mean we see now I mean you know obviously that I travel a lot on the tour and not I still make a point you know would make dozens of slam finals opposed to there could have been a guy that was one hundred and fifty in the world that he used as a practice partner that circular backs rain it's it's there's a lot more curves and circles in this stroke than we traditionally saw yeah I think what Ah targeted you know once he is very playful to be fair I'm just saying he was the guy that really it really took someone like Yvonne to come through who was crushing the ball of both sides in order for than there to be someone like Agassi who's in some ways gets credit for that because I think they're they're kind of markers in in a timely Agassi marks the time where Tavano about this specifically but it's it would be a great conversation to have sure I'd like to see you know what he would say about that because we see things you know like yeah for sure what's interesting to me and and this is the way I think that learning happens through a culture right through like the tennis culture for whatever reason everybody else looked at him and said okay well we have to work on that to writing so after Andre Him because Yvonne was the first guy to come along that just like crush the bowl of both sides yeah it's funny because I think of look at the slow motion video pete now it's almost like he's forcing this linear finish onto a rotational stroke yes okay I got interrupted 'cause I'm so glad a little more rotational but you see him kinda still clinging to and you've heard landstor talk there's he still clinging to this driving a credit for having I mean he has more incredible ball strikers national strategy start to creep into the game and on the full hand side and I think it's for some people easier there maybe maybe most people I don't know if that's rusted game like avant had the total package for for his era yeah yeah well yeah what I'm saying he had the total package in the sense that when this guy is you like me not just me I mean a lot of us think of Andre as being dot guy right but really avant was that guy a whole generation earlier rate example of someone who is forcing something that he learned so he is intentionally trying to do things I've not seen him live go watch a champions tour match where if he's still gonNA play some right but like you have to see this guy make contact with the aw it's so good even now it's so good right I think people don't understand that in so I don't think that landscape necessarily gets the I've been hitting an unbelievable forehand but couldn't return service in that gray backing wasn't good enough or whatever and we would never know those I said like really a statement or not the person I was going to bring up next Pete because Pete to me is like under a plus a little bit right like he's was really really good at getting people to make good content yeah okay Pete is one of the best ball strikers ever if you have the point is he didn't have one guy interest have two guys have three guys like he had a handful of the best ball strikers ever right and that includes on the actually the longer they're on the tour not just because they get older and a little bit beat up but the longer that there are essentially coaching the standard for the backhand on the tour raises all have and I think that's interesting because he's the first guy to me I mean we see these robots that you brought up Robert landstor who has worked with several several top champions and done an unbelievable job go to these guys right to me lands haft that people were used to to some degree elise and then over time we see obviously the the the the frame start to change that are actually living him a little bit when you see him hit from the middle of the court right so we have to divide Andrei a little bit into young Andre and then all the Andrei after young entre because remember this is a guy who was still idea of direct through the ball but you see a lot more rotation in the hips and pelvis and more rotation on the shoulders and it's almost like very lenny right but to me Pete I think is fascinating case study because it seems like he's Elsa you're talking about Maria Davenport I mean Lindsey just like her striking's unbelievable right now very linear is to but if you look at Saint Nineteen Twenty twenty one year old Andre he rotated way more than he did in his thirty just physically he's the first person you see some of these elements at the top of the game and I remember Andrei talking about how influential Yvonne was on him the reason for that physically he was limited so if you look at then young versus young Andre Right these guys are waiting for slim's and having to take quarters zone injections into his back because his SCIATICA was so any other coach I can think of now I don't know all of them that might be wrong as far as heroes I just pure gray yeah pure contact so good right in writing and you have to have strong back muscles includes in hamstrings abductors etc in order to rotate the way he shelves the more they're going back to the coaching that they heard when they were younger and they're limiting their rotation right now they can take for that because they had some of the best timing ever and they're still hitting a super clean ball but what really gets me as Pete and this is what I want us with velocity right that most guys on the tour today do not hit in matches now I'm not GonNa say that you can't hit in practice because most of a lot of them at least can't right but in matches they do not hit at all right like the angles that were was hitting when the spin he was generating and the sheer velocity on the ball matches up got there's no luck salon okay there's no polyester straight this is all natural gut strung up very tight and he's hitting angles with a very heavy like a fourteen ounce eighty five square inch frame rocket with a big big grip and all natural has to do and it's unbelievable yeah no I think that's that's true I mean I think the thing is once you get paid on the run he he sampras to maybe like Goo ga to Federa it's he he jumps generation suddenly and he he was still joke about it because he was always at the openings watching these young guys play and he watched some guys hit some running never heard discussed in a public form and I haven't had the conversation with you so I mean in my mind I feel like there's a guy who there's the funding to me is a lot of times pete on the run hits a forehand that is more reminiscent of Rafa on the run hance and their opponent had come to the net and they were able to get volume whatever and he just laughed and he said I kid you not Sampras would have passed that guy hundred times in a row with his running for him his running forehand was so good and to me when you make him run I mean I'll tell you right now like I've gone back and looked at the film from him right and and and just jumped on and just said is that rhetorical you asking me I'm asking I this is something that I've sort of thought about by zero pattern as opposed to kind of forcing that that follow through that he had and all of a sudden it just becomes like one what guys are doing right now and that was twenty years ago thirty years ago yeah that was thirty years but this is the thing right in graphite technology or a racket technology since the the prince graphite which was released in nineteen eighty and but it's not it's not I don't think James Changing in the same way that the switch from wooden rackets the graphite rackets was you know at this point like we're not we're not heat the way that he rotates gets hit rotation pelvis rotation and the way he kind of just let the arm swing in a more natural take from materials perspective and look there's being in the last twenty years we've seen real evolution string technology we haven't seen real evolution such on designing new materials which is exactly what has happened with string technologies the design of new materials using existing our existing understanding of what makes the gene between and now really any any evolutionary changes in rocket technology you know we have these minor tweaks and What the Hell is that the point is look we're not we're not it's not like hey this is glass and this is this is metals where we're studying and doing no but I'm just going to repeat that because materials science engineering which most of us don't know what that is right but I mean that's means that you've and then the way pete hits his forehead from the middle of the court you know it's funny because yeah because when when you watch him hit on the run it was so much better than four from the middle of the court yeah control is what made it so much better like how could a guy hit a forehand on the run and when he had time in the middle of the court right by just employees different strategies right right so what was different about his technique that dot could happen yes we get a spin boost from locks bought the spin bish from locks over you know like a bed of natural hot I mean it's significant war real genuinely modern like current moment at techniques strategies with the forehand yeah he sees comparable velocity and spin actually studied materials like what's the difference between a polyester straying analog look my research my research was in polyester strings my research was generation further down the line than normal forehand right when we look at these if I look at for instance being generational where we go from you know Khanna's land all too that they are ability to impart velocity and spin is limited by the quality of contact by how much of the bowl that we get in the Middle Court Kinda hits it the way he thinks he's supposed to hit it and when he's on the run he's almost forced to just be an athlete Ryan and he does he does what he and when and I've had this conversation so many times online that by the time peace coming along I mean there's there's this is obviously a handful of guys that could but there's

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