Data Privacy with Justice Srikrishna

Automatic TRANSCRIPT

It is possible that we're living in the most interesting times in human history. Technology has advanced so much that in many cases it is indistinguishable from magic. Our phones understand what we are seeing. Gaza have begun to drive themselves and scientists civil recreated the first designer babies but as much as all of this has made a live simpler. It has brought with it a whole host of new societal and regulatory challenges. The planet is reeling from the effects of climate change. Modern medical technologies are constantly raising new ethical concerns and as much as the data driven world we live in has made our lives easier. It is immersed in a surveillance state like never before. My name is russell martin. I'm a technology lawyer. And i love to explore the intersections between law technology and society. Last year. I wrote a book called privacy. Three-point all the trace the evolution of privacy in india and the rest of the world. I discovered that with each new technological innovation. We were forced to change the way. We thought about personal privacy. I'm deeply interested in these sorts of connections and for the past six months. I've been working on a podcast called x. Mark that explores these issues in more detail. Just as i was finalizing the last interviews of the first season of x makina. The government of india introduced the personal data protection. Bill in parliament after. Close to a decade of waiting. It seemed that india was finally going to enact a privacy law. Is i read through the draft. I was struck by how different this version was from. The one put out by the she kushner committee over a year ago. I've had numerous occasions to speak with justice. Secret out his thoughts on privacy and how he came up with some of the concepts that he had introduced in draft and i was eager to know what he thought of the government's draft so i went to mumbai and managed to get hold of him for an hour before he headed out for his. We talked about the draft bill and how it compared to his version. And what it all meant for privacy in the country. I had never planned to release data protection episode as part of my ex mark in our podcast but given the discussions that are taking place in parliament and before the joint parliamentary committee. I felt it was important that i shared this interview as soon as possible. So here it is a good razor for the first season of x makina. So i just wanted to before we start. I wanted to just understand. Justice recruit another man. And i understand that you were born in in bengal. That's what we should have. And that's you still consider that your home in some because you a lot of the band. I keep going to ban door us. Confess but nowadays. I've been very infrequent except for the to inside some of these seminars and events like this and then you did all your schooling in bombay. From the time of the three month old baby. Oh my goodness okay. So bangolo is not even a born in meadow. that's only technically born in bengaluru. Victory nurseryman soul and thereafter remained in bombay continuously except for one year stint in car-o-van house chief justice and about lovely five. But if you look at a lot of education into your life may not be entirely correct. But i'm just going to read through them Graduated with a bs. From ellison's tom college right From jalousie connect did from the university of bombay. Correct where you was. Second rank who's western. Don't ask him what is he could saw. A one hundred percent record judgeship from the And then e diplomat indian aesthetics. That i from bombay university. Okay were the reason for that. My life had enrolled for that and lectures were to be held in the evening. From seven to nine or something and I felt a little unsafe that my wife would travel all along in public transport all the way across the on so to solve the problem and so as not offend sensitivity. I said okay with also join so the both of us would go together. It's my car. After finishing the lectures not is i got involved in it but continued and stood first in class. So this is. This is why you a practicing lawyer. Judge judge judge of the ball mic. So why you would do. What would your classmates thought to have a judge in a big write up. In the one of the bombay newspapers i forget each one reach to highlight the fact that grandparents were attending classes and one of them to be the judge. And of course your few in in many languages in is what they say what. I'm sure there's more than i do. And i've lost but some particularly funds from the mindset university in sounds good and then also i can call us just whenever i speak to. You might manage to find the perfect son. Script seeing That in and of course. We talk about high-tech kinds of things. But somehow those things you just said centuries ago fit perfectly in in yeah. Oh you're from the picked up of dealer intuited. Let's just absolutely and you were lawyer practicing your employment industrial long. I practiced in the bombay affordable. Twenty eight and a half years before. I was picked up manage in the year. Nineteen ninety and my specialty was liberals liberals and of course you became a judge in ninety one and in ninety july nine hundred thirty eight to be precise and we didn't. I'm gonna say two years. Three years the mumbai riots happened it happened in december of ninety two and then they had to find someone to head the inquiry commission. You got a junior jets. It seems to be quite a serious responsibility. I have number three from the bottom of the list. And there were about Indian old people above me. The chief justice started going one by one from the top. And then it'd be one of them declined and to medically when it came to me. The chief justice me and i said i don't know anything about it but i'm willing to shot it but i had a serious misgivings but i when i was asked to believe i said i'm a practicing hindu and everybody knows that i sit in the court unafraid. Area money with the big decline my on my forehead. So that interest confidence in people because the hindu-muslim riots. So my team is asked me a quick question instead. Minu patani robes and sit in the court do continue to be a hindu or a muslim or anything else. That's annoying unsentimental way judge. Then she said that's the right spirit and sure be able to do it and thank god. I did so that must have been really difficult because it was because he does quite unchartered territory for confirmed. I didn't know what to do. Expect and what kind of Competition non-cooperation that would be from the state authorities from the police from the there are at least seventeen counselor in seventeen different interests who everyone of whom insisted and cross examining every witness for her to control your lot of thing and there was then the chief then chief minister mr manala. She was too because examined. Everybody wanted to headed glad. Tim and i thought they were out to. Just you know belittle him. So i said nobody will ask him anything. I ask him the relevant persons and also done all three beginning now discounted been easy because obviously look you know. We're recording this in the aftermath of some of violence over this nrc Issue And in hindu-muslim issues india always very fraught. It's just it's just the nature of this country For our young as you said third from the bottom judge to to take this up what were you. I mean what were you thinking. I apart from. The fact that you're practicing into this must have been really challenging young pickup bed on whatever. I kind of challenge. If somebody says you can shoot this jumping to it and then institute. I can do it. The need in fact that he's become a lawyer to tell you. The truth is really the story that story but not a big story can narrow in two minutes. I was studying for mobile. See i had. Boston played for massey. I wanted to do either nuclear physics or quantum physics mutual the great things in those this thanks to the atomic energy commission and told me baba in those there's no small ambitions on nuclear or quantum and fascinated me that right now time i dabble in the title understand how we relate to philosophy and things like that that's a whole different cosby. Must have a conversation that somebody someday. So i applied for it and then that was the just before the vacation vacation. We were having dinner at one time. My father was lloyd into the senior lloyd and the bloomberg and the supreme good. And i don't know how the argument started my father statement which i talked with it because he said you can't be a good lawyer unless you some kind of super brainer super intelligence or something and i said hey to be. A lawyer can be vegetable. He got me and he said what bush or it don't be roughly. It means it is easy to talk but difficult does short in practice and these next morning i've ended up to the law college admission and i paid my fees in the law. College and poor professor in the institute of friends was waiting for me. The job being the fees the path and then he got into panic home instead do. Are you having financial troubles. I'll pay the first. Please commend join so next day to go and pacifies him and equal angry with me. He's your fool. Why are you giving up a good career that you are in your view an uncertain future of a lawyer and then finally he's blessed me and to be a good lawyer for don't want to be able to scientists and so here and so scientists losses Laws i know. I put it the other way around. I say the loss of the legal community again in the scientific world so that's clearly what has driven you to take up these sorts of challenges and i got married. That was a good challenge. So the just to go to the The five years that you spent on this and eventually you came up with a report. The report was the put richer submitted in two thousand eight. I believe if i'm late. February and march eight two thousand nine hundred hundred ninety nine thousand nine hundred nineteen ninety nine thousand nine hundred ninety eight. The fact that this use will they indicate the culprit in the matter with bjp taking second bank was probably hurting the sentiments of these issues and pigment so when she become The ruling power in bombay the first thing that it will disband commission and they shouldn't notification saying that a lot of money and time invested not is come out of it so it'd be not continue with the commission terminated so for almost six months. They'll know commissioner. And then to the creed of mr spicer. The former prime minister that in that fifteen this term that he had done the last days before he resigned. He wrote a personal letter to mr minority. She done chief. Minister is too big. A public issue in michi- should spend the commission should immediately decided the commission for notification. Shoot distracting the commissioner levels. Gordon from where. I left up so after gap of six months i had to continue and then the government did. What did todd whatever the smart thing namely publish only enough number of report copies of the report as would go onto all their militias and melts and not even one extol calculus so there were no issue available not in the public domain and each in melty partner gobi but and the kept also hang onto till the last moment you know under the commission of inquiry zach the report table before the expiry of six months so debated for five months and the last day they will witness the monitor and then of course there was a big funeral. Lots of critical articles that were appreciative. Article is all kinds of things done but honesty a lot of accommodations. I've been given a lot of could think could come out of the i don't think either. The government decided are the government center sincere about implementing that. That's exactly what happened. In fact there was on petitions filed in the high court bill fighting the supreme court. Nothing daily seriously came out. But you've been on many of these committees since then you've been on the central commission You are also the the single person commission on that Address high court writes And then of course The facility Which is i guess. One of the most influential financial services reforms. But even that is. It's not the problem commented. Set up committees of experts and the expertise to make the report and give advice. Government will only pick and choose that which they wanted to do and reject the never going to accept advice from the point of view of whether it is good. These exactly the my story of all the commission's if you notice if i don't think they're completely implemented that no i it would be phenomenal because it is the most forward thinking financial services probably. That was my problem to thinking everybody. Then there everybody interactively using incident. The very beginning i had had a meeting with all the regulatory chairman and everybody congratulated me on the other box thinking and the subject about the me out of it. Everybody that seems to be thinking of dated. But still the they called upon you to become the head of state prediction committee and we've spoken in. You said you were about to pack up and they dragged you out of that Once again You seem the man of the are when they were these difficult things to this are not always easy enough to ask somebody to hold. The baby is crying. So why did you take this up. Is it because you again challenge. Because this is something that i never heard of. I didn't know what it takes involved from the back end of different sort okay. I'm taking headlong plunge into it. Let's see what the products and it's not. I mean not that. I'm of rockets and rocket science out of looks into it sciences. Watching happy to but it is much easier than advantage and okay. Let's have a look at it. So what's the background of the time i mean. Of course this was when other Was in the supreme court and a lot interesting development. I must tell you. I had just finished Bondi did the community on recommendations with regard to amendment law finished it. And i suppose you're right. I was supposed to take that to new york. I was telling the supposed to come back to the bonday kennedy metro go to new york so before i left. I got a call on my mobile from the minister. mr lewiston coupla. He's he sneakers up quick this year but com go nogo answered this com could be day. Is this committee thinking of bringing out a law and data protection. And then i want to please wait for us I said okay. And then i realize that they are no not only that i told him that. I'm going to get into america. I come back into these. New jimmy johnson. But you come into it. You're gone means okay. But when in a puzzle by was so insistent on friday on friday this. I touched the remember thursday this opium really holding them to at Gunpoint on the other shoe is being challenged. And everything's good adam. This content very the law that pertains to production in this country. So they wanted to mollify discipline. Good so monday morning. They wanted to announce and they did announce that we have issued a notification formulating committee and funding committee. Beach will go into this. And it's going to be added by parliament's go dead mr so and so and that seems to have sort of cool down good go them along and finally of the judgment came in the supreme court. Then i had to come back and not come back. I do some video conferencing tool beatings on video. Before i came back to india then be started off in our nest and then we decided we decided that it should be open and transparent so we held consultation meetings in five or six major centers where everybody was asked. people were asked what they wanted to save. It was put on the public domain and sponsors invited then be in the white paper saying the depositor tentative thinking and again output responses. The responses came. We considered the then. Long meetings were held each topped with titled submitted the government. And then. After i don't know i'm totally unaware of what happened. Thereafter delay london bodybuilding circulating and. Here is the bill Been these as different from the duff that submitted as a chunk cheese so i want to spend some time with the process. You just described it. This whole openness is not common When it comes to legislation in this country is really unfortunate. I think the deal is very good at coming up with Consultations but other than that. There are very few useful consultations the automobile and i i believe he did this with the. Fcc is for the first time that allowed cv said holiday. The the common new unified again later should make regulations. We are given a whole lot of professor app on from the update. Also joined the by me ethan. Shy shy person. I one of the boys lama and then. Pfp berry of said what in the methodology for regulated. the government's. I did that. And i wish more people would lead that. In fact was the law ministry would read their as because it is. It is a science i mean doing this properly is a science. It's as we can see through this third one thing every regulator for himself understand. What is the cost. Benefit is intimidated. He must say why are you doing get what is it. The depot is power and cost benefit analysis and then put it in public domain that is openness that inequality but today via regulators. Just come out with and then my ups are said something we have to follow it so you follow the same process with data protection committee and i guess a lot of the feedback that you must have got the process is i give some submissions. But he didn't listen to it and it wasn't incorporated put. What what do you have to say about that. Because stakeholders to find is this. You're right about fifty thousand responses obvious. The everybody's response cannot inc and you can take a look at this and then finally think the community feels the best out of it which can be inc unique opportunity for that matter if there is a decision that doesn't mean that the committee thinking is wrong. For example even the lousy to members descended notes even in the data committee has a december one person had been dissent dude fine. I'm hello democracies. snc's descended into any buganda. Everybody saying the same thing that the become a core of it doesn't make them democracy. Then so danny. The approach for the law was Take a look at what international Statutes into our various countries in the world. Of course we are really late into the production gave there are us europe. And now there's all of the world who have it and in the beginning of we report you say that there are three parts around the world and we are going to take the phony love limited. That is too. I mean look. These are concepts floating around in the ditch. Lesions concepts will pick certainly because sometimes they're difficult to say that did he's turco. Did is another concept. Also introduce some concept that except that but whatever is the current international thinking we have incorporated the good points sort of simulated them into law which will be useful and also suited for our purpose after look at our Economic standard political Gun son says a values in life to have what does sightings good so just to be clear. there is the jewish view which is fairly laissez. Faire let companies do they have to and you've got big data companies there. There is a chinese you. Which is the government will take over everything and so all. The companies that operate in china are listening to the government controlled companies and. There's a european view which is very regulatory heavy your pr and so They don't have any big data companies. There there's sort of the balance between these two but india had a unique challenge because we also wanted to use development. And that's the whole push with your much as other but a lot of the various come after that that was the balanced absolutely absolutely. The point is is like a tiger for. He's just let it lose. You'll lose again. You put it too hard then. I'll read now if you decorating international relation if you make it too stiff than the person who wants to invest in your company who invented company business in your country will not be deterred. He'll go to the neighbor. But at the time if you think you're a pushover even very very well for you and then get the best out of you and then make you the food. What it necessary to be strict on some aspects. Open it for easy interaction in other aspects and activate tightrope balancing tightrope walking. That are do balancing that. We have tried to do this. They were obviously some new things introduced. I mean some good some questionable. Obviously you had this data localization provision which the first time we heard about it anyway. The government was in your White paper and then of course the took it and went with it even before the law. Indeed i jumped the gun here but then what other. Provisions is when we can get into all of this this concept of data. Trust score that you came up with which. I don't think any other countries that well intended to informally do the the issue so the an idea for who is good news bad news trustworthy of minded being retained and processed. And that's something that's informative on. Because you and i have had many. I'll go around consent and you know that my view is that consent in this current stages completely broken You sort of have the view that it may be broken but we need agency and therefore it's sort of the basis of everything dimitra scores to my mind. When i first saw it is sort of a a way to arrive at that in a different way. I don't know whether you violate. But if i can give you a score on trust then even if you made me sign this big long consent agreement. I trusted one minute. Number default question was. I did subject shooting number thirty. You were not part of the committee. I put my foot down and said the last time i anybody. Subject as when england all these countries now after that i will not come as a subject of anybody else including the government of india. I'm as research is a free country in a democratic governance. Therefore it is that you want to take. Then i'm the data principle. I will give it to you and trust this. Framing is unique in the world. Right and around the world. People have always called the data subject. The data controller character. That is a really you know medieval kind of an approach entirely the wrong direction. Absolutely so this flaming in a sense puts the back in the hammer. The user yet that signature tune of the entira law not. I'm giving you something that is really might on trust for what purpose for a purpose. That will the doodoo the processing by judy lonesome individual and i will also stood as because there is a long history of water on misuse. The so just as she could you give the report. You gave a draft bill. And recently we've got the government kepler so more than a year And during that period of time no one spoke. You know anybody from the government decision and then eventually draft comes out you see in the draft. Yes before we get into any details. What's your general impression of the draft from perspectives. One of course as sort of a proud father you will have a certain affection to your draft but if you can set that aside because ultimately we don't want the best we just want be be that we can actually use and become law so from that perspective. What do you think say. There are several cosmetic changes. Ms nina really affect the character of the law to. I'm not going to even mention them or deal with them. But there are some basic principles from mr delegation. And that i think is now one of the things that i kept on saying is that it did protection. Law must apply uniformly across the board to private entities and government entities if and number one principle number two principal lease the desideratum is content on the principle and the stance dancers consent is not possible in such cases. The lawsuit have something to say about that. It should be done and finally when it comes to state agencies are state actors accessing the data individuals that would be an infringement fundamental right of privacy unless there was legislation give and that meant and bothering it and no legislative enactment would be constitutionally valid unless it complied tipple fahd munitions continues. Node meters was thinking in the community and everybody agreed with it. And that's helped fought billeted the job and the reason i decided it topped of the bills should be published because otherwise what happens is when you sit on. The committee and the committee gives report. The gum and the comic is reported not published and the public at large would not know what exactly the committee thinking is and very been a knock followed by the government. This time he said well. Let's put the job after the report draft of the final report and adopted the bill also in public demand so now the public and compare. What is there in the draft. Bill's bitter with the community as against what is being placed in parliament and understand whether they were so that the this. This is a really important thing. Because you are saying that the principles that you settled in your law would apply equally to the government as well as to private parties which will be the corporations Data and of course the biggest on everyone has is government actually violating your privacy through surveillance to oil the other Police actions that state can take because all of those fundamental reality privacy but still in your draft you had some exemptions and you had some exemptions for the state where provisions of the act would no longer play and a lot of people. I think Question you on that thing. Why did you allow for this leeway for the government to violate personal privacy to these various exemptions. C word is subject to reasonable districts whether it is under article ninety or article. Fourteen article twenty one. Big difference didn't nothing like absolute freedom for anybody. Now look at it. The logic is this dusted in theory is really acting for the benefit of and in the interest of the public at large so we did not emperor it than the citizen milan's have been audible but the environmental. This state must be only for the benefit of the citizen. Only to interdict anything. That might really come again. The enter the dissertation so that in the example given national security. So that just for instance. I'm just take the worst example a terrorist attack under those circumstances. If you have some play we'll see. Please be prepared to sacrifice because you are. You should be willing to do that in the larger interest. Pacific honor criminal investigation. That is the weird said that in all cases how'd you do about it did should be no i passed. Generally we dealing incentive arbitrary guard of this situation that numerator by the in the tough that is omitted and that law in order to be constitutionally valid would have to complain it the triple a principal. They don't in buddhism judgment proportionality all basically object united states than the proportionality law. It needs to be the law needs to support a staples and the action dig must be proportionate gutted. The status principles are if that is in and how to conduct fullfilled if any one of them is violated. Then the loyd unconstitutional and so you took the step of actually putting those three principles into the exemption provisions exemption provisions accent talks about must be under the law this this book provision now so when you have now seen the draft. What is your reaction of the exit is can you please. Famous broadened sounds good. Thing also on somebody went and decided to make a gun. Petit mobility and ultimately turned out to be a monkey. Okay does happen. She had a definite purpose of ensuring the private right of privacy was not infringed or abridged by any process other than the strictly parameter warranted under the constitution. Now the government has by one fell swoop exemption and face in the building to parliament that the government may in by declaring these object is by executive order in any of the rights of permanent. That is six thirty five in the draft and to be completely clear the Reasons under which could mean woke are the highest of the height because it is in the interests of the sovereignty and integrity of india security of the state family relations with foreign states public order. This is even the constitutional framework stated throw not fundamental rights cannot be back to quit parliamentary legislation in the lottery. They don't buy this so can argue the size and the introduction of this collision in a law which was passed by parliament is sufficient. No because who is going to do this. The government ban executive order knows that not not visible lawmen. Say this so then in your view if this passes as is could we challenge six thirty five viruses. of course. there's no doubt about thirty five is unlikely to stand migrated unconstitutional. Okay so that's as perhaps nothing further to discuss on there. I think there's another really interesting provisions and that is thirty six which is another vision exemptions. It's slightly less Sweeping in its scope but thirty six talks about certain circumstances under which various parts of the law the law and order play and it says that the provisions of chapter to accept section for and then it goes onto the other chapters now in your draft. You have these liberal vision. Which says that. All the provisions of chapter to accept section four. I think the difference though is that section four in this draft and section four in your draft are they different and so innocence section four of this draft used to be section five one of your draft and section five one of your rafters become section four so to someone who reads this just just looking at it goes away. it looks like lee produced. Exactly what you've done but there has been a very subtle and significant change. Strong word is nothing but legislative lizard affect okay. So can you go into that because right now. It's your idea under section four. Was that each only people process and a fan of these women right now. Section four says each hell only be processed for an awful purpose as a lawyer. How has a standard changed now. They switched these two lovell. Purpose is will put generally everything that is not rated by not man has everything lawful need not be fair and reasonable this interesting and so they are now operating essentially they just need to declare purpose and love whether it is fairly easy so that means long is not prohibited by law. You need not fair even can be unfair and reasonable because that's the kotler study. So what is the impact of this. To the normal citizen your vision was to have a the replay equally the private sector as well as the government. Now the practice obviously has to stick to all of this. Maybe did god lunch. Some executive officer will sign something and declared and this is in the interest of father nydia. The country ought condensed offer. Its military secrets are in interest of criminal investigation and that is an end. As far as i'm concerned as far as europe is concerned but we cure this candy challenged and so it can be challenging. Tony talent i talked on. Of course something. On which. I will not be too much this but then it also ship and this is not if i don't take the lead with with the fact that after neon so that's you know that's completely i think that's one of the big concerns that Everyone everyone had when they looked at it at. You know i would say that all the people who are concerned that you had given the government too much freedom with the exemptions. I know happy to go back to position rather than live with the clutch. That's different between gun. But the and monkey the other. I guess the other provisions of some concern to people is the data protection authority the data protection authority as much as you can put into the law. You will really clear that you needed to have a strong regulator because there is so much to be done. After and for the most part. I think they've kept provision with the data protection authority except for the provisions with regard to the appointment of the data protection authority. They've got the same number of people the officers everywhere. Pretty much the same bosnia. I think they've moved dp to the government. I think also vice versa. But the appointment. You had Conceivable of a framework where they would be judicial representation committee set up by the chief justice that seems to have been replaced by the gillard of free to act the regulator in situation. This should not be seen other nominee of the garment to stronger lackey of the government. Now if you have judicial representation representation from other independent persons it is not idiot. Unlikely the vietnam near the government. They will select the best man for the job after thirteen. His is really t- to take independent build building matter that is totally lacking them and that is critical in a law that applies to the government is better because if it was a law that was governing just to play with. It doesn't really matter but when the low actually can turn on the government you need to have an independent placenta other way. The nominee of the government is. You're you're serious and but the The good thing is the one of the provisions do put in your draft remained. Which is that. It will be six of years and he will not be eligible for the appointment and after that five year term the the and members of the dp cannot be appointed to a new position by the central one for two years. After that. so the fact you know. Let's let's see we get a person who is A some stature and fitting subsequently they can be very little interference situation of what we saw bud beckett the is of the nominee the government but because of the stage he may raise the pressures the government make donny and act independently. Get such a partisan. I don't mind that's perfectly justified but dick situation and we're going to bad person for five years. He talked with him. You can do nothing about that is that is but i think the comfort and i know i am an optimist broke. Everything is his storm is undisturbed for five years and also. He's not looking to be reappointed. Anyone who's looking to be reappointed electric. He's obliged to build totaling but there's no such thing and not only not reappointed to this not pointed to any role in the for two years. Antonini significant data fiduciary for two years so strong Didn't send due to toe. The government line agree. But you can't be too sure think. Yeah no but i. At least i think we should draw comfort from the fact that they have actually Leading some of the provisions that you had kept there for the purposes of transparency. Okay so that's the I guess the other a strange provisions There many but this is another one really stood out for me was in your formulation of the draft. You had a very windy article. It'd transitional period as you know when the companies that able to force the enacted various parts of the companies act in stages. So you can understand that because that was a very complex and required a lot of fundamental changes so in your draft you recognize that but you had it very time moan and i think the dieting From the data presidential assent to the coming into force of the i love was appear of eighteen months. That indicting is beautiful and the draft. No says that it will come into force as notify various sections. What does he at. This have long agreement or the notify the to up after five years ten years so we could have a situation. Now where the parliament approves it gives its assent and then everything just goes into yes. He's one of the contentious matters. I i had a feeling that that is participating in on this saying that because of these executive Lackadaisical s or deliberate avoidance of implementation. Can the batmans will be defeated. I know somebody who lives along the land but particularly since your draft. Had that very clear timeline. Which is which is. I haven't seen it's a. It's a fairly aggressive timeline. If you ask me because the motor is trying to do you are trying to access the altitude off having declared that right to privacy the fundamental right that means every day that goes about. The law is a breach of my mental rights so today though access my data and the bleach of momentum you don radical thirty do tutoring to six for the sooner. They put it into police in the better. Because all of those twenty two twenty six hundred thirty to play lousy to the government and we also need to target private violations. Okay the the other provisions which i know. You're quite concerned about Is this infusion with concert on personal data now Since your committee handed in the report there has been another committee. That's been established under by which is about non personal data in your Low you talk about non personal data and you talk about the fact that you know we are relating personal data but there's a lot of other data that's being collected which is non personal data and the government should look into it and even in your draft. There is a provision to the end with says it. We are regulating in this personal data. Nothing will come in the of the government enacting a law on non personal data but what the government has done is written that provision but in addition added a clause which says that they can access non personal data For bush data is amazed or non pursue data to enable better targeting of services formulation of evidence based policies by the central government. I wanna ask you first your opinion on this and do you think that by flagging this issue you have actually given them an idea. That was not in the heads before he example the community data number. Let's say traffic there. The oddity got it to you. Know something like google maps these. What he's shooting in the committee but since our mandate with the meter we decided that is like them build a expect the government to consider it carefully and come out with separate law to deal with this issue now what the government has done. You want me to bond bluntly lock in the front door and giving the windows open steal it. Anybody can steal that. That's what the government did today. There declare that. In order to target of i need to access but everyday dad non-personnel and and took it from any company. I don't understand what an unprecedented people don't understand. His company's data maybe predicted either because it is presented on the staff employs directors et cetera. It is protected did not body of personnel non idea into the company but example financial records then the company border the nuisance their projected targets than to terrorism. They do nothing. The company business model hundred government can access all epa dot com. But even so. Of course i you know maybe the government does have an interest in that but there are so many tech companies today generating a valuable insights which may not be predictable but which represents some significant value to the company from a competitor habits because by competitors will get access. I couldn't even envision what did not personally but then day is a negative term each other than the union would've except personal data is the number one hundred and you either the beckoned garment just declare significant visually. There's no other country in the world located northern country in the world have gone on record to say this and this is. I don't know what the big idea. So this is a this is a good sign. And i'm sure i think it's finally Not not only. The data localization provisions You got a lot of flack for having dinner. Localization probation It's still there. But it's diluted it's so before we get into that. What was what was going on in the committee at the time to introduce this because you wouldn't i in the world other than of course and was and russia china and russia. And you see it in your report saying this china russia which is one model which is the state goudreau's it china's great firewall of china. India doesn't have that but you introduce vision to say that data should be mirrored a you go to the serving copy. In india and critical personal data must be starting processed in india that has remained now even into the new and critical data remains. The dan not been different has not been defined. Must ask you on this. It would have been nice if that report and the law had even a sort of a definition of principles so that we could understand what it was right now it is critical personal data as defined by the government. And so we have no idea what is gonna be one difficulty. I also notice see but you know what was the duty during the debates. I said to the table and critical data. What is critical now. The president's personal their prime minister partner to the personal data. Say the chairman of the throw chairman dunnigan education chairman of the air. Why should be in timbuktu or some other for the quite frankly any company would completely except that raises nothing unreasonable. In in retrospect i think we should have defined the argument on that says if i needed to the hype head by and the critical nature could neither strategic excited the fundamental in the personality. That's exactly what i had in mind but some of that definition doesn't seem to that and i hope the government really does not it is it is in another door For the government to put everything into this basket which could be no but then the hundred defining. So they're right now. The law says as notified so they can define to mean all genetic information or they could say oil. Medical information is covered information they can see genetic inflammation. Now that is critical. There's a reason for it. I think eli critical. Data means auditor headed by social media platforms. This country what can you do about. That's the concern. The occurs to me post-facto the disease. What is likely to happen. But let's go back to the because you had said all personal data. What was the reason for the reason. They're very simple assuming that either legitimate cause for accessing data personality. I'm not nonprofit data. Not even taking the discus by this date. Now let's say something and that. I'm a terrorist. I'm marie financing. So is a lot of money moving in their back toward now. Somebody needs to access my data albeit with my consent but that would need to existed. Now how do we exercise it now. The gel in india. They didn't say book to do you had to go to the process off to the place to timbuktu. Ira name let me play the. Us may not be applied within two are some some other country. So if you're you're finish anything if we place that adds up complicated process diplomatic governmental judicial and back this back and forth with six months ethics. It takes body up. Yeah eighteen months. The report that i feel so in that particular month. Uganda for another. You'll have been twenty four hundred to a million bombs manufactured so many blast military necessarily but just to be the issue was access to the literally access now. A lot of people are seeing. That low flirtation doesn't necessarily give you the access that you need because you're madrid dixon and i can get you get of the person by the neck. And they give it to me but didn't see. It is encrypted. I don't care whether it took you decrypted and give it to me. If you want to hear the most people are saying. And i i. I completed that the localization was part. One would be if you encrypt data. Nord forcement can ask you to decrypted interests of all of these. I'm not saying that. Did not carte blanche the government. This is against subject to remember exceptions. Such us through the situation where in the paramount interested in south india of this country security can be need to access the data ahead bags. Plays it financial whatever it up. At that time we didn't talk to it. Data what is what is the methodology numerology to assume that a plane doesn't agreement and then may twenty four months absent. That is the reason why you. What do you keep a copy and people lose is of course there is cost and all your argument back is. It's the cost of doing business in india but the challenge with that And let's belabor the point for two minutes before we go into this not just to get the conceptualization of the committee. there are many other. Second order implications. You're the the ability. The internet gives businesses is that i can be located anywhere and i can reach customers anyway so take an example of some startup very any good startup based auto scandanavia as start up. They don't have the ability to set up so isn't any country in the world. What does it what is impossible it is. It is a proportion off the size of the business. Full this book. It costs nothing for google. It costs nothing. Probably will set it up because so many uses but for someone who's saying look. Let me get my first end users in ten users telling me so much business Expenditure it's challenging. It is challenging in the sense that it is in in some ways it deters people from the camp so if i say look i can lead any country in the world except i also have to put us over. So then. Let's see okay. Let me put india for later. When i have enough money to be able to say predicted from the. It is a center agreed. So you'll grow your muscles. Come back to india and do business. What is the argument. So i'll just want to do business but then you wanted to business on your did because it's not convenient for you. To is an argument that self dividends but the the to do business in europe can tell them i'm startup. i don't want to complete it. your lost. In the world clients localization fully removed the restrictions. I cannot say that this ratting media for not. I got bid please. Executive from these one of these conditions other conditions than other countries which allowed me as a as a startup budgeted and north startup is going to come in excess the market of this data and then come here belong to any any startup looking to india but most startups are just set themselves up on the internet and then they say oh my god i have like forty fifty people from india signing everybody does it. They must be. Just let me go. And so in a sense not doesn't wag the dog but now they will if they are accepting any people from india they will have to set up a business. But let's leave. That did the bill has diluted your second also access to data isn't necessarily because they absolutely the for things in this country now under what version of it can be accessed is another matter but my data being held a middle of no use to me. When i wanted. I don't have it. If i wanted for security wounded i wanted for the purpose of legitimacy and then he takes one get the book bag of the saudi government bypass positive and now the government says Critical data retained only in the country. Sensitive data maybe to be retained in the country briefed but it can be transferred wisconsin. John's they'll students but the of fear or apprehension voiced medical city. And i think no one wins in this formulation because in your formulation it arguably it's very difficult for the for the corporations but as far as be will be able to get government under touring the country's interested not comments comment to me the country paramount. So if we hit all data has to be kept her then Without a doubt it will be difficult for competitions but at least that opposite you had was his law enforcement and access to data of now i will not be in the country because if you send it out only will keep his sensitive personal data which is a limited set of things like some sort of financial information on all financial information or fisher. Some medical mission and in the west is just night entity inflammation for example. I'm a notorious smuggler. Mytravel information is very eleven is kept and if i want to access it. Exited good to them led process again. Because there's no other ridiculous but equally. I think operations now have an additional burden of separating the data into sensitive personal sensitive and allowing the puzzle if anything. This is going to be even more conflict. I yeah it's mad and really complicated so you're accepted in the report. The committee ideas and not really used to the pressure brought on new by the lobbies. But because you're done something with united here again not a bit. So it'd be good which is a monkey king the gun is so i just want to ask you some Few questions on what we can expect going forward now And i like to you to reflect on the thing that you said right at the beginning which is many many a time. The government disaster to come up with reports the may report You came up with a reported. Nothing happened This law If it was passed in your form was Had a short fuse to come into effect which is eighteen months now. He doesn't seem to have that fuse. you also mentioned that When the minister asked you to do this he was responding to some pressure. That's what do you think is the future. I day idea maybe is to take it easy and then i dunno the idea. Maybe we are beginning to beautiful. Legislation are about inducted. Says like that saying there is one of the distinct singular legislations with the country has come out something very progressing. But then he did good we operated. Nobody knows about the so. There's absolutely no on pollick standing in the world. ask you to do another committee. We do agree. I don honesty. These poor conditions did not fail. Because i took my person who's excelled waleed bone just as sri. Krishna has changed many committees. Some of them arguably more important than his work on the data protection committee but given the times we find ourselves in. This is the report that is received the most widespread public attention. Now that we have the opportunity to compare the draft more prepared with the bill that is being placed before parliament. It seems that yet again. The government asked for his views and ignored what he had to say justice. Sri krishna is in his late seventies but his eagerness to dive into new areas of law remains undiminished. Spoken to him about privacy. Over the last two years i've been struck by how quickly he has gotten on top of complex issues in the field of law in which he had no previous experience. I always think that we don't appreciate how lucky we are to have people of his who are willing to generously donate their time and expertise to the country. Whenever they're called upon to do so martina is produced by vaca media. India's best audio production house thoughtful elegantly produced content. The theme music was composed by desouza. This was an unanticipated. Gordon reason for my podcast season one is filled with stories about the impact of technology on society. It launches march twenty twenty. So if you subscribe now new episodes will slide silently into your podcast feed as when they released. We are available on apple. Podcasts google podcasts. Spotify on whatever. Podcast app

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