Will virtual dates stick around after the pandemic?
Hello and welcome to wide you push that button a show where Caitlin tiffany. And Ashley Carmen that's me examine all the choices. Technology forces us to make. We are back sort of just for now just for today. Yeah, a little one off for all of you who have stuck with us for this Os year since we last released episode I have absolutely no sense of whether that's accurate because I no longer have any idea of the use of calendars. Yeah, so! Pandemic Kate. How how have you been doing? Let's give the listeners a little bit of a sense of our mental state. These days yeah I, think I'm getting into the swing of it. When a couple of months ago. When we started talking about doing this episode, it was chaos here in the tiffany home I had recently broken a mirror a window to wine glasses. It was basically like I was just kind of crunching around like a floor covered in glass being like I. Wonder if I'll ever see my friends or family. so that was a dark time. I, am but. Things are picking up in new. York a little bit were allowed to go to the beach crucial. Yeah, allowed to look at each other outside. If not touch each other, so things are on the on the up. Yeah, we've. We've seen each other. which is really great I think I've sort of settled into a routine of sorts I've done. Pandemic Bingo I've done polygon workouts. I've made various foods and baked I've done. Done a puzzle. I hate to admit out loud I learned tiktok dances in had jello shots. Right birthday that you made me. Yes, anyway, so we wanted to do this episode where you know of course. Why'd you push that button? We are always curious about how dating affected. What's changing dating these days? So we wanted to episode about how cove nineteen in the pandemic has forced us to make a ton of. Of decisions about how we live work, relax etc, and how he date. Everyone's been staying at home. As you all know, and so that means they have been able to Columbia date and virtual dating has become a thing and we want to know. Is this thing that's going to last forever, or is this a pandemic phenomenon at? We're going all forget ever happened. Repress. It maybe mentioned it to our therapist once and. And that's it. Yes, so virgil dating I guess the first half of virtual dating is a concept that was already part of normal dating interest, swiping on tinder or okay. Cupid or hinge, which I guess is more of a scroll type action, but you know whatever, and then the virtual component is that because we have been understood home orders, and because people have been encouraged not to hang out in close proximity with. With people who don't live with them, you just don't do the whole thing where you meet up in a bar. Who would you can't do You don't do the whole kissing thing. You don't do any of that. You just like facetime or zoom or SKYPE OR INSERT alternative secure video conferencing software here to see if you have a connection, which all of that I think makes sense. We're kind of interested in. In what happens after the first time you facetime with somebody, win, you know. How do you build momentum? Can you build momentum? Is it actually dating and will there be like remnants of virtual dating in post? Pandemic, Romance Yeah like how effective is virtual dating really? I think broadly geographic location has become increasingly less important like when you're doing remote work. It doesn't matter where you are I could be doing an forest. Forest or beach or in the city, and it really does not matter as long as I have an Internet connection, but you know dating these dating. APPs have kind of made. It seem like maybe geographic location doesn't matter for that either, so we WANNA know how effective it really is to date from afar, and so here's here's stats. We're just throw some numbers at everybody. Okay. Cupid said that sixty two percent increase. Increase in daters on okay, but going on virtual dates in April, compared to March and it started including covid nineteen questions in people's profiles, they could talk about how they feel about. The pandemic e harmony reported a twenty seven percent increase in messages in April match, said that daily swipes read an all time high during its last earnings report, which was mid pandemic, so obviously, all of these stats are a little bit. But they are from the peak of the pandemic, which is, we would expect most people to be using their APPs video calls the most so presumably while the pandemic kind of wanes and then comes back during the year. We'll see people stay on the APPs the probably changed how much they're using them depending on the state of lockdown in their state or country, so we figured we should reach out to a dating APP. Expert Aka someone who works in the field and find out how things are going on the ground. Back in March way back when we talked to pretty Josh e the VP of strategy at bumble about what they were saying with numbers during the pandemic and more people are using the APP. We saw an eighty four percent increase in video calls. That were placed between users and what we are hearing from our users is that this is basically a way for them to connect safely because they can't actually connects irl right now. And because we interviewed her back in March, I reached out to get. Get a little bit more of updated numbers, so but will actually saw sixty nine percent increase in video calls on bumbled during the week. Ending may first verses video calls during the week ending March, thirteenth and the average video call slash phone call time on Bumble is twenty eight minutes, so people are really like doing the thing. They're doing the virtual dates. There were also some product changes to actually deal with the influx of people using the APP most significantly. bumble adjusted their quote, unquote distance. Distance filtering for finding matches prior to this world, everyone was able to really interact with or meet people within one hundred mile radius, but now because you know, you can't really meet anybody I row and a lot of people are kind of quarantining in communities that they aren't necessarily a part of because. Maybe they've gone back to their parents, houses or something, but we've tried to do is give them the ability to connect with folks that might be a part of the community that eventually go back. Back to, and they also added voice notes, which actually voice those kind of having a moment right now. Yeah, I remember earlier in the whole. Like. How do we date from inside our apartments conversation? A friend of mine was saying that she was gonNA start sending like sultry voice memos, which I honestly thought sounded really fine. I actually tried it out a little bit when I was long distance dating during the pandemic. I mean it wasn't actually sultry, but I did send a lot of voice. Voice memos there. I think more intimate than sexy pick because they go on for longer, plus we're all alone anyway. It's like you have time and space to listen to this voice. Message is out like you're on the move. Or move. Okay, so bumble is not the only dating APP that's creating all these product features, others are of course doing it as well so tinder is letting everyone around the world swipe for free to find quarantine buddies. This is usually paid feature, but now they're making it free. They also want something called global mode, which completely gets rid of geographic filters entirely for free, so you could be mashing with people were and vice versa hinges also letting people tap A. A button to say they're ready for video. Call date just kind of interesting, but I guess it supposed to facilitate the conversations. You don't have to be awkward, but like. Are you open to video calls? If you're having a conversation with someone in the messages, then you just like hit a button being like I, am ready. Yeah, and it shows up at the bottom of your chat and it's like okay I guess that she's good to go where he is. I? Don't know about that. And then, facebook still has a dating thing. They launched their video. Call dating and is also going to launch one on one video calls to so everyone is going all in on video calls virtual dating. The badges lack of location filters. Everything I will say that while I do support this in principle in practice as someone who has really bad webcam face I. Don't know that it will work for me. You really have to work your angles Andrew Lighting. You have to know what you're doing. Tinder I think for me is the most interesting one primarily because it's I would assume the world's biggest dating APP and Nikolai and I are earn sheep. The verge we actually talked to the CEO of Tinder. Ellie Seidman for the verge other podcasts called verge cast, and got a little bit more of the behind the scenes details about why they invested in. In videos aning, and also why they care about this as a phenomenon videos, not about video videos about live videos about the ability to get connection when we do it on tinder, we actually the positive side is we bring to bear all of our experience with safety. You know the things that are completely off platform. We have most zero ability to do. Do anything about their outside of our purview, so there are a lot of benefits. So really what he's saying is the hat. Tinder is going to keep us safer on our video calls. then. Maybe they would be if we were using facetime or Google do or whatever else people use, and this applies to privacy too, so you can actually keep some of. Of Your personal information secret from your matches you'll often want a certain amount of privacy as developing a relationship as that relationship is forming, and they don't know where it's GonNa end up. They don't know if it's GonNa last and so giving out your facetime ID giving your snap handle, etc, giving out all these other things may not be what you want. Elliott was actually saying that before the pandemic video you calling was on the list of features. They want to launch, but it was very low on that list, so the pandemic just set it up, but I'm curious, Kate. If you're on tinder, would you want to use a video call feature with someone? You don't know yet if it became like a norm to do a quick screening video, call with someone before you took. Took a whole night out of your week to meet up with them in person I, think I would be into that. I mean not on the dating APPs right now, but that seems useful to me. I can't even count the number of times that I've dragged my, but to bushwack or to a piano bar in mid town, and then as soon as the person comes in and says Hello I'm know that I. I am not gonNA vibe which maybe sounds shallow, but I think it would be better for everyone if you can just like video chat, be like and then not have to have that embarrassing like twenty minutes a day. Where one person is ready to book it exactly, there's been not so many days, but definitely a couple of dates a stand out my mind where like Oh, if I had a video call to. To just screen you preliminarily, we would have been good. We could have avoided this whole awkward thing where I've had to chug a glass of wine and then make up an excuse to leave. Yeah, there are people who will expose themselves like real quick, and then you can just cut it off. Yeah, if you'RE GONNA make problematic comments. Problematic comics are gonNA come out in that video. Call one way or the other. So I'm imagining that after the pandemic video calls kind of like we're talking about might stick around as a screening system that just makes especially for women for safety to avoid ghosting all the things like video call cool, but I'm really curious about is during the pandemic, if while we're stuck with digital dating, which is text and voice and video, whether people are actually talking about more meaningful things. Things in there by building a relationship, or if they're kind of just shooting the shit talking about being depressed, pandemic fireworks in Brooklyn, whatever versus actually trying to you know, go a little deeper, and pretty from bumble told us that with people being stuck inside. They are having more meaningful conversations in the APP and bumble says that it knows this because they have an algorithm that apparently assesses conversation. Conversation? We have a proprietary ribbon that basically helps us understand what a meaningful conversation could look like, and that we can see has increased since the time of kind of Kobe everyone being quarantined unlikely pudding, potentially more intent right behind the conversations that they're trying to have into now. We're seeing that about one in four conversations are turning into these meaningful conversations in meaningful chats for lack of. Of A better word that I can then only hypothesize into good forms of relationships, however, folks are defining back. I wish pretty gave us more info. Because this is like really shocking to hear, but it's also not surprising considering we give all of these APPs lots of data about ourselves even if it doesn't really seem like we are, they can see what we're talking about and can kind of. That information, but yeah just suffice it to say these APPs know what you're doing I would assume that they're probably talking about like the number of messages people are exchanging or the link. Those messages wedge could have been you know a temporary pandemic thing. People are just dumping their anxieties on each other. It could have been texting. People were extremely Horny at the beginning of quarantine. On this show, but it's possible that the meaningful conversation was a was a blip. We don't know how long that's going to last. In the online dating world, yeah, like temporary people were vulnerable because they had no other outlets, except for like therapy and a few friends, but as we go back to potentially at least being able to go on dates outside, I think people might go back to their their game playing ways. But because Kate Ni- are not in the dating scene right now we want to talk to a few daters who are on the ground, experiencing this and get their take on housing going for them, and whether virtual dating is here to stay. I talked to Catherine Smith a writer and The memoir all the lives we ever lived seeking solace, in Virginia, Woolf, I, also just finished a piece about current Mirus Ding loneliness singled down, so she truly knows about isolation and loneliness. Those are some some key themes eve, and talking you from Rhode, island but I actually live in Brooklyn. Catherine got a taste of social distancing a few months before we did in America I had matched with a guy named. Earlier in the urine January and he had actually gone to Hong Kong where he teaches at university because he was in Hong Kong, he was going through social distancing two months before I, was so he was the first person who introduced me to determine social distancing actually on Valentine's Day. And I know idea what he was talking about, and he was like Oh. Yeah, no, that's. When you don't see anyone. I was kind of like. Oh, well, whatever because? This is a problem unique to China? Of course two weeks later, she was ordered to stay at home as well. She noticed aside effective at home, dating the dreaded check in texts from Scummy X.'s and former flames I was also noticing that all these other men from my past kind of popping up. You know people that I hadn't heard from in months or else people. That I had just started dating back. In Brooklyn, who? Were at the of indeterminate place in our relationship were really wasn't clear what it was going to be and it was just kind of put on on hold. I'm very disappointed in my exes on surprisingly that they have not hit me up at all. A mole fended like. Don't you kind of reflect on our relationship when you're all alone and have no one else? Yeah, the two that I had were not very exciting. One was from. Somebody will never speak to again in my life, and another one was just from some Internet boy I went out with three times, so they weren't like they didn't have the drama of Catherine's, but I. do understand the impulse to reach out within your pre existing contacts rather than going onto the APP. You know it's. It's we're lonely. Sad, we want the familiar goats something you already know even if you might get extremely harsh tax back, that's what I heard from a lot of my friends. Who dating to is that a were texting people who they hit either gone on one date with and fizzled or people who they like meant to meet up with, or at least we're hooking up with just because it's a little bit easier than starting fresh like the advent of covid feels like like the silence, a game of musical chairs where all the sudden. The music stops like Oh I. Guess I'm stuck with. It was kind of casually dating. So as we were talking about before since so many people are working from home. Geography is becoming a lot less relevant in dating so a Lotta people are figuring. They might as well video chat with someone who lives nowhere near them in Catherine's case, Hong Kong I reached I'm lonely. And he wrote back hug with all these issues which I'd never seen before I was like. Oh, that's comforting. And then he was eventually like we should do one of those weird facetime for Steve. Things and I think that's not something I would ever normally to and realize that I'm sure. Yeah, let's do it and other interesting consequence of the pandemic has been the slide into complete lack of fashion. Nobody that I know is getting dressed anymore. We all like slobs. webcams aren't very flattering and Catherine knowing this decided to have her date with the N. over the phone instead of on facetime so that. That she would not have to try to put herself together for the video call, so we ended up just talking on the phone for three and a half hours, and it was really nice, and like a very strange way to get to know someone, and he had this kind of a really amazing radio personality voice. I can imagine that in a phone call that long you have some pretty meaningful conversations, maybe even more so than you would in a an irl date, which don't tend to last three and a half hours in my experience, so is social distancing making for better dates, I mean. No, it's definitely not feel like a real date like. Both like, say in a bar. You have a couple of drinks kind of just like warming up to each other in getting like all impulses that are coming at you or the same impulses, and you're seeing the same things in your, whereas like he's looking out at these beautiful hills of Hong Kong. Enormous Towers and I'm like sitting on Matak in the dark, according to Katherine, there's still something missing with this new form of dating like I. Miss Like touch. Like, not necessarily that we would have had, but like just even the fact that that's not an option felt very like a little bit of anticlimax. As we've said we live a world of unknowns now calendars have no meaning. We don't know why we own them. It's horrible to think about the future. Dating was already so disorienting and alienating, and now it is worse. There's something about not knowing when this is gonNA. End that makes feel I think a little bit daunting. You know like I. Think I think part of the excitement of going online and talking to someone. Is this like promise of possibly getting to see them in and heading it off, and it feels to me like what's a little bit like what's the point? So? Catherine kind of makes it sound like this whole experiment around virtual dating just is not working out that well, that may be the whole effort is kind of useless. She definitely had some issues, but she wouldn't go so far as to say that it's useless. I think it's actually a very probably great way to get to know someone to me. Barrier feels like what. What happens next and and the fact that lake? How long can you sustain this kind of like endless talking when you don't really know like? Are you going to be able to meet up in a month? You An immutable to meet up like four months. You know just feel I think it's like in deterministically is really really hard to to maintain like an excitement. Okay so the fact that Catherine is not willing to completely right off. Virtual dating makes me think that we haven't totally gotten to the core here of whether virtual dame completely stick around, but at least makes me think aspects, if not most of it has lasting potential. Yeah video were sold on video chatting I think IAEA and the numbers show that more people than ever are using dating apps than before so clearly. There's people out there who are trying the APPS for the first time. And I wanted to talk to someone who I knew was new to the dating APPs, and that person is my boyfriend's brother Max. Tinder and hinge dating stories have been keeping me quite entertained. By one hundred percent love it, but it's war on. It's okay. I think I'm setting myself up for Post Corona virus, so think about Max is that he always hated on the dating APPs pre pandemic and refused to use them, so I was super surprised. When suddenly he pivoted downloading them as soon as the pandemic said in I think it was just because like one I couldn't go out and like normally like how would. Would meet someone like out and about at a bar meeting with friends or whatnot just through mutual friends now obviously really can't go out and socialize then I was like okay. I need a socialized somehow and for a newbie. He's been very successful. He chatted with two women, both of whom he's gone on facetime dates with and the first one went really well until she pulled the ultimate dating sin. We have another one. One that up and shook snapchat before to Chila. I think she drank too much Tequila so she actually goes to me on our second date, so it's kind of corona red flag for me. Actually this happened to another friend of mine, too. Now that I'm thinking about this someone else I know got ghosted during the pandemic, and I can't believe it. How do you ghost during pandemic when we are all under no illusions? Illusions that you have nothing else going on also kind of rude at a time where everyone's really nervous people getting sick, you know just a polite. I no longer feel like talking to you I. Guess That's not polite. Polite version of that then no one has to worry that you have become ill the communicable virus, but going back to Max, maxes second woman. He went on a date with actually. My have some potential. Is actually pretty awesome right. We talked consecutively for a few weeks after back. Drinking wine hanging out and talking. Face facetime and we know pretty well. We're talking about like maybe cooking together. She lost cocaine. She seems like a really good based off of the food that she showed me and I was actually cooking the other night generally feeling pretty good about this woman, but the relationship has reached a standstill. After some time though we like trying to like disconnected, just because there's no physical connection, there is because we can't see mother after Sarah Boy. Whereas doors and the conversation was meaningful enough to make him keep talking to her, but it still missing that essential physical aspect talking for weeks on, and like you know, we're really to know one another. I just feel like I. Don't know I like I feel like if there's no like actual physical connection or like being able to actually be with learn other person, I just feel like it's limiting kind of doesn't feel one hundred percent real I also want to take away from your will have them person. That's you know. Max makes it sound like the virtual dating situation in dating APPs, just kind of a band-aid over the situation like he's fine, he's doing it. He's making it. It work for him, but this is just a placeholder. He is ready to get back to impersonating I mean the first weekend that Russia's were open I'm going to a restaurant and I'm sitting outside. He's ready to go back and social. He's ready, so I think you know this doesn't speak too highly of virtual dating sticking around specifically for people who have never been interested in dating online before. It seems like he doesn't WanNa. Go anymore facetime dates, but he is maybe like comfortable with tinder. Now's a concept. Yeah, I think he's seeing the potential of meeting a bunch of people. It does broaden your horizons as far as how many people you can meet in a day. It's unparalleled. So with both Catherine Amax Day are kind of in the spot of not really knowing what the future is going to hold if they're going to be interested in continuing virtual dating. But that isn't to say that people haven't successfully managed dating from afar by virtual dating and people who long distance relationships have had to make the Internet work for them for a very long time way before the pandemic hit, so we wanted to talk to someone who has been in that situation for some time to see how the pandemic is affecting them. They've been using these tools for a really long time, so we want to know what they can tell us about the future of virtual dating. So, we chatted with a man named Matt who's partner lives in another country, and was already in a long distance relationship before the pandemic started. My Name's Matt prayed now I am living at my childhood home in New Jersey. He and his partner Mike Lives in Canada are a true tinder story, but the pandemic is throwing off their plans I. Met my partner Mike? Four years ago now when I was on a business trip in Montreal and on Tinder at the time, we're now working on a visa application. That requires us to live in separate countries, so we're pretty used distance at this point, we have gotten into the groove of it and understand each other's boundaries and communication mattress kneeling what both maxine catherine kind of talked about feeling this no end in sight type of mindset in the past we've been able to visit each other once a month or so, and that's really been like what's rooted us to the relationship. I guess you know obviously now that. That the borders closed. That's changed so since then we've kind of had to reckon with not knowing when we'll see each other again. Which is something that we've never really had to deal with before? Matt and Mike have figured out ways to stay in touch normally, but now that they can't see each other in person that all the need to keep up. Communication is even more urgent. It's honestly impressive. How many different platforms and chat formats they've been using. One of the main things we do is we watch TV together? That's always been a way that we relax and recently we've been really into the real housewives. It's just such a good way for us to like chill out of the end of the night. Ultimately, we usually end up using. Facebook, MESSENGER call or facetime. We also play animal crossing together now or play Mario Kart together and things like that where the online play element makes it feel. Closer and then we try to like throughout the day. Keep that call going as much as we can and I'll just prop my phone up against the wall on. Or on drinking my coffee and writing, and just trying to keep the connection open so still we're seeing technology as dating enabler, but that only seems to be a temporary replacement. It's a buffer for one. You can eventually be together in person and in the end. Unfortunately, Kate real housewives is not a replacement for her real hug. Physical intimacy doesn't translate well. That's also something that we've had to deal with for a long time, but always with that knowledge that next month will see each other again. Next month we can lay insane badge, or you know so I think that probably is what translates least well for us is how much you want to be able to give somebody a hug right now. They're also real life gestures and activities that are genuinely romantic, but don't really work when you adopt them into a digital context, things like having a candlelight dinner or just things where you would usually put some extra effort into a great can feel cheesy when you're on the Internet because it's like why am I lighting these candles in my bedroom and So I think a lot of what I've come to realize is like you kind of have to change your expectations, a little bit of what is romantic or intimate Now it feels somewhat romantic to just sit down and watch the real housewives of Beverly Hills whereas like cooking dinner and letting few candles can feel cheesy, or it doesn't translate as well. Yeah, and the pandemic is just a huge hurdle for them, because more than anything else going through. Hopefully, what's a once in a lifetime event would be really nice to do with. With a human being by your side, the feeling wall. This absolutely ludicrous thing is happening in the World Mike I can't be with him for it like we can't really go through a together. That's the part that bothers me. More is present moment and not being able to help each other through it as much as we'd like to. Obviously we love Matt and his partner and wish them the best. They seem to be working really hard to keep their relationship steady, and we have no doubt that they'll make it through the pandemic. I. Feel optimistic in that. We both seem to be in a similar place with it. Which is uncomfortable? You know not okay with it at all, but I think that starting the relationship long distance kind of came us a little more clarity on that fact that like. The next time we do see each other whenever that is. The way we about each other's going to change. More. It seems like the big takeaway. Here is one that originally dating. APPS came out it was. Kinda position does like this is how you're GONNA meet people. This is the new way to make introductions no longer have to go up to someone at a bar and hope for the best, but this pandemic situation and virtual dating sorta suggests to me that more than that you can. You can facilitate that you can get through the first couple dates worth of material online, and you're probably doing okay. Okay, but it's when you get to that fourth day. Where you're like okay, we're ready for that physical physical connection. Probably yeah, I think we kind of decided. Correct me if I if you feel differently, but is that this isn't really going to completely overhaul like the dating experience, but it is maybe shifting somewhat our ideas about which parts of the dating process can happen online in which parts can't exactly now since we did some of these interviews a while ago, we wanted to give you. You all a little update on our guests. So Catherine says that she is still single. Although Ian broke up with her over a text because of the piece she wrote which I guess just speaks to the fact that the pandemic is making it awkward to break up with people. Even if you've never met them in person and people still feel like they can do that overtaxed, and then as far as Matt and Max I, think the pandemic and their use of virtual dating really was just. Just a placeholder, because as soon as they had the opportunity to meet up with people in person they did so. Matt was able to finally cross the border into Canada in June to see his partner, and he's with him now and Max went on a date first thing with one of the women. He was speaking to the ghost actually, and it seems to have gone fine so I think what we're seeing here is just that virtual dating has some merits, but clearly in person is preferable. It seems like the features we really like and concede sticking around is definitely the video calls screeners, which again is kind of that first couple dates preliminary info slash just that initial. Are you even someone i WanNa talk to you in person screener I should mention that in the course of thinking about this episode I briefly became obsessed with this community called. Called never mats, which is for people who are in Internet only relationships, which some of them are extremely sweet. They're just like teenagers flirt in minecraft for months and months on end, so we shouldn't say the online dating doesn't work for anybody. Because some people do find it really romantic for sure and I spoke to the tinder CEO. He seemed to suggest. Suggest that the younger generation like Gen. Z. are the ones who could pull off virtual dating more than millennials Gen Z., the eighteen nineteen year old to arrive on tinder today. They've grown up with the social internet. They've had in their life from a very young age, so when they arrived. They've already hung out in digital environments. It might have been four night right that could have been the place where they were hanging out with their friends, so the idea of like hanging out and developing a relationship and developing and connection, letting it unfold in a digital environment is not a new idea, but as far as whether geography matters allow. These dating APPS are starting to get rid of their geographic filters. On one hand I do think that makes some sense because you can have things in common people around the world and find valuable things. In everybody, but at time like well, you're going to have to overcome some hurdles. If you can't see each other in person like eventually, you're going to be like. Oh, we want probably meet up and see each other in person so I don't know how long those filters and the global mode for tinder is really GonNa, be appealing right. Is it in New York right now? People are still not taking this subway, so I probably wouldn't if I were on the APPS, agree to go on a date with someone who lived in a different borough. I would really like to keep my. My circle tight right, but I would maybe be willing to meet up with someone in person at this point. Yeah, same here totally same you know I guess close this out. I didn't want to pull again from that tinder CEO interview because I really wanted to ask him. Whether Technology was advanced enough to replace the irony experience of dating and Kinda. Get his take, so this is what he had to say. I think that this varies for for everyone. Our view, my the personally, but our view more broadly as a as a team at tinder is that there is a limitation? There is only so far you can go. That were physical beings right, and that's important, and that's wonderful, and that's been true for. You Know Millennium Millennia Millennium is not going to change because of Covid is not going to change. It's not going to change. There's a very important place to play for hanging out virtually but I think there's a very important place to play for the physical world, and will have a better sense in in a year's time of like how this shakes out what percentages are what but I'm definitely betting on the physical world being very important and here's Day. So that's it. That is the one off bonus episode of. Why'd you push that button? I hope we are back soon. Kate anything else you want plug here. You've been doing a lot of great reporting work. Yeah, we neglected to mention this. It's a tough episode, but. I I work at the Atlantic now, and this is a lot of the type of thing I've been covering. They're just how people are using the Internet to cope with the strange feelings of the pandemic, so you could give me a google if you wanted. Find my new home. And everyone can follow me on instagram Asha Carmen I. Hope I hope one day we get to come back with another season. That would be really cool, but we have no news for you on that front, so don't ask any more questions about that. You all right? That's it for US seawall later I.