THE WITCHS HEART with Genevieve Gornichec
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This season season four because he's just interesting people who don't books and sometimes we will have those people so this thing happens during the offseason of free cookies even during the season of free cookies. Where if something funny or not funny happens but i think that we need to talk about it. Alright it in a little note app in my phone and catherine often forgets that. I've written these things down even though at the time i'm like oh my god write that down in the notes app so she knows that i have recorded it but then she forgets a couple of months later. So i've got a few of those that they need to share with you with the first thing that happened during this particular. Offseason was that about two or three weeks ago. We were eating dinner on the couch. Which tends to happen during coronavirus pandemic and catherine turned to me. She suggested this. We once went to a museum where there was a video was about world war two and is about the holocaust and there was this anecdote about how the i think it was two sisters. Were there together and that every day's rations split fifty fifty like to the could get there and fifty fifty and it was imperative to each one. Whoever took the took rations take more than their. And this is catherine said. She meant it seriously that she thought that i would take more than my share. We'll look y'all we're sitting on. The couch to theaters with our bulls hiked up on our chest so that the space between bull and mouth is minimal and as small as possible. Notice the side. I that you're giving me because kate tense. Eat her dinner much faster than eat my dinner. So i still have portions rations. Whatever you wanna call it. And i see you every time. My fork pauses and it hesitates. There's this long drawn out stare into the contents of and when the forecast goes back to the bowl into my mouth there. Is this good inexplicable disappointment. That washes. you're eating. You're continuing to eat your food that if you didn't continue to eat your food it could become my food. Yeah but you're also the human. The after i make like the perfect proportions plate you be line to the stove and you take the wooden spoon and you proceed to shovel mouthfuls of whatever i haven't garnished or seasons like into your mouth because you're worried that there's not going to be enough food in the bowl for when we turn into sea otters this this particular question in this particular question in a that is actually plays into my mind the lot after after going to this museum and seeing this video embedded itself in my mind about because the question that this video was asking was. What kind of person would you be. And i'm being i'm being serious. This is not funny. I genuinely think about this a lot. Would i be someone who would be capable of splitting everything fifty fifty or would i be someone out for my own survival hot sauce on it or would they be bland because i think if it was just like plain white right see buick but if it was perfectly season with the little miyoko butter and a little local hot us. I don't think i would be getting fifty percent if i couldn't see what it looked like before. Atlanta okay so the next one that i had written down then this is. This is really where it gets pretty funny so last week last week we were we were joking about how sometimes are there are groups of friends who when you pass by them at a dinner table. It doesn't really sound like they're talking about anything and that maybe they're talking about like lip gloss or something and i'm and we were joking about lip gloss and the topic of lip gloss and how silly it would be to have a whole conversation about lip gloss and i'm saying this and then you paused in you said and i said i mean how interesting is lip gloss even and you said i actually gave a presentation on gloss in high school. Can you didn't follow up at the time. Because you said you said something like twenty eight flavors of lip gloss was this flavors you need to learn you you should. It would be wise to maybe learned the difference between lip balm and lip gloss. And if you had been part of my presentation you would understand the difference between lipstick lip. Balm lip gloss chapstick. Technically we don't act. Like i don't know the difference between all of those things and i think a little gloss that we both really like and you always ask for that lip balm and it's not a lip balm lip gloss lip balm and chapstick very similar true but lip balm can also come in a little. I think chapstick jar chapstick is like a brand and then lip balm is like birds. bees is. we're we're even get into to the basics because you do regularly confuse lip gloss lip balm so embarrassed or me when avance. I'm just actually kind of excited to say this on the air. I'm so yeah. No i was in high school and i used to have quite the collection of bombs and lipsticks and glosses. Over at my best friend's house and eggers. I somehow decided to dump on my bag out and their living room entered. Ad was appalled at the amount of lipstick and lip balm and glass that i had and so i proceeded to put them into different groups and orders and explain why they all had their individual place in my bag and to this day. It is one of the finest memories in the acres and informative. I think so. I think i sold a lot of glasses that day. So funny that you explain that because in my mind you had poster board and it was a school presentation so at least it was only sort of an impromptu family presentation okay and this is this is really the best one okay so we were out for a walk a couple of weeks ago and we're walking around her little neighborhood and a woman walks by and she has a baby and the baby is in a baby. Bjorn and she's got a little baby and the baby bjorn and you say to me i want that and i'm like a baby and you were like not being a bjorn and i was like wow. I actually don't know how. I got duped that because like i obviously kind of knew you didn't mean the baby but just like your delivery was perfect. I would want to be outward facing. Or i don't need to be tucked into someone's chest i just wanted to be outward- busy. Earning the world. There's no doubt that the best way to be baby. Bjorn is our facing. I mean the other way just looks boring. The inside is all schnookered time for the snuggie inward facing baby warning. If you're filed out if it was nighttime and i was a baby i would. I would be like pulled me inside. Buffets me inside but during the day especially if you were out in new city or something. I'd wanna be the outward facing baby bjorn. that's right but anyway. So i said i said you said i want that and i was like a baby and know you're so let's just let that rest. Do you think that genevieve is super excited about this. This is the perfect intro for cast. And when i say perfect i mean not at all the guests that we have today. It is this month's pick for the inky phoenix. Which is my instagram book club. And it is called the witches heart which is a debut novel from genevieve gorna check and it is about some of my favorites figures norse mythology it is about loki and his children but the main character is anger. Boda which is the giant tests and baby bjorn and and there is sadly no baby bjorn. But there is bjorn. Vikings on the history channel. So if you watch a big guy who definitely doesn't sit in someone's pouch you can check out something related to this book and the opening number show on the history channel sorta sabotage sponsor. This show interest geneva. Gorna track earned her degree in history from the ohio state university but she got as close to majoring in vikings that she possibly could and her study of norse myths. An icelandic sagas became her writing inspiration. She lives in cleveland. Ohio and the witches heart her debut novel. It is so awesome to have you here on three cookies. I am so excited to have the witches heartbe inky phoenix's february pick and my friend of ours recommended this at because i am a huge fan of norse mythology. And there's not enough books like yours in the world is my opinion on this and so could you just give our readers on our readers. So my brain's all over will become bill. We will become haters. Can you give our listeners. Like a little elevator. Pitch about the bullet-ridden l. i. Such a thing to throw a you but just so they can kind of get idea Which is heart is a novel that reimagined norse mythology But places a minor character at the center the giant unger boda who is only known from the months as the mother of hell ferrier guns Three very unique creatures by the trickster loki trickster odd oh wow you know. The funny thing is two years ago. If you'd said that it would have sounded like a foreign language to me but now that catherine. You've you've taken a deep dive into viking norse mythology somewhat because of vikings on history channel but also because of your love for it even before that so that made perfect sense to me all of that makes perfect sense to me before we get into the the book which we will certainly be talking about. Can you give me your quick take on history channel stream skip mike quick yes. Yeah streamer stamp jam or jam you know. I was onboard up until a point. They made some interesting decisions. Yeah we'll like well if you. I do biking age living history so anytime you tell me what you know in. Vikings first came out It was oh. This is like the most accurate viking age. Television show made to like so far. That never been made. And i was like a hawk. Yeah so i watched it. I was like Like i understand that when you're telling a story about like history sometimes you have to make decisions that will make the story work narrative -ly But i haven't been. Is it the fact that ragnar and rollo in the show are brothers. And actual history. They are definitely not related whatsoever to very important characters in history but that kind of thing. That irritates you. Did it irritate you. That the character of fluky was definitely loki. Except for they never said that. Drove you crazy the entire freaking time. Yeah like we're a thing with ragnar. And rollo like didn't bother me But the costumes dead. They're beautiful. They're just not historically accurate and i. I'm sorry. I feel like it's only such like an elitist jerk but like i only want the dirtiest one show. I just want one show historically accurate costumes okay. I'm done. I'll stop you. Tell us costumes. You're talking about the braids. Well so many questions obviously katherine. I've actually had like thirty minute. Conversations on our dog walks where she must to know. If i think that ragnar head could have been shaved because they probably didn't have an electric razor. So how would they get a uniform. Shaven green cut so the these details are not small for us now. We yes we care about our listeners but mostly we care about our own entertainment so what what do like what of those specifics. Really gulled you It wasn't like the hair so much. I guess it's just like the whole lake. Grim darcus static. That's like super popular when you think about vikings when really like big like diner closed bright colors like it was dark there for a lot of the years or a lot of the year Stuff like that and like armor lake. I dunno i'm sorry. No that's closed bright colors. That's young how i don't think of them as hippies. The vikings historical historical plan dying. Like a whole thing. But i like. I like you kind of just used what you had back then so lake. I don't know. I'm i'm not an expert on like the the combat stuff either But like a huge thing because they were super expensive. I mean we found plenty of them but like the everyday person could probably would have had something that used a little bit less like material because sword super expensive to make. Did you think on this podcast to talk about the nitty gritty details viking culture. I was not prepared. Like i could write you an essay on this but like put on the spot. I'm like sure. They just don't know but i don't know by genevieve. I will make sure to text you a picture at the end of this conversation and free cookie listeners. I will share something on her instagram. But for my birthday last year kate did manage to dig up not actually with their bare hands. But she found a ninth century. Viking ring that she gave me for my birthday which is huge and does not fit on any of my little tiny pause so she had a chain made for the and it's very magical little entity and so part of the reason why she got that for me. I love norse mythology. I love the vikings but the character of hell or hella depending on how you want to see her so that's for listeners. Who don't know what we're talking about right now. That is one of the three children of anger buddha and loki and hells exactly what she sounds like. She's the ruler of the underworld in norse mythology. And she i'm working on fiction myself and she's a very inspirational character that i want to pull into the series that i'm writing right now and it's very difficult to to find information on her. So this is part of the reason. Why i love your book so much that you took you truly characters that are so obscure in many ways. I mean maybe not loki in especially if you watch moral and all that we've got like odin thor and loki everywhere but you took these obscure characters like angra boda and and gets a lot of screen time and and so does the macarthur serpent but but hell an anger better. These amazing female figures. I just really want to know what the process was like for you to take characters that there is not much written about and flush them out into these truly gorgeous characters in your novel so it all started like when i took a nurse mythology class in college that i wrote my term paper in that class about unger boda unlike her connections with a bunch of other mysterious female figures in the mythology and connections i mean very tenuous connections unlike unlike attributes or associations that they have in common so what. I end up doing connecting her to like all of these other women like i mentioned in the which is hard like hero. Can his la like all these. These like creepy women that we don't necessarily know a about and i was like well. What if they were all one person and then the the problem became in the story is like okay so i just gave this one woman all of this power. Like what kind of person would she have to be to not use that power to change the outcome of everything totally totally. And am i saying that right. Google vague big and let me like all of my pronunciations are like i mean anglicized still like. There's no wrong way this figure by enough it'll make it seem real That character which is basically the which that it seems like you merged with anger buddha. Is that another kind of obscure character from norse mythology or is that something that we could all go down the rabbit hole on a another obscure hair shows up like i know. I know. i'm sorry. That's the whole problem a problem. That's a good thing because your book is out in the world and so people are going to want to pick it up and understand the source. That's that's a good place. That's a lot of pressure but no she's from like one stanza one one stanza in in one poem in the poetic edda. We know literally nothing else about her But just by her name meaning like gold loss like she's been associated with freya but i thought like wouldn't it be cool if she wasn't fair and there's a nod to that kind of at the beginning of the which is heart where scott these lake. Yeah like. they're saying this which we'll talk. Say to odin and they think she spray honorable just like good. Let them think that. Leave me alone because you're so immersed and fell in love with norse mythology did did you. Did you ever start to see it as a religion. Not for yourself but think of it as how people who lived at that time period would have seen it as like these were real answers to real questions that they had about the world around them like these were the answers to pressing questions about. Why the sikhs why. This guy exists in the same way that we have modern religion. And they're still answering or trying to answer our unknowns. So did you think do you ever think of it as a religion and how do you think of it in. How does it shape how you think of modern religions like i personally don't just because of like my my own hangups religion and my trying to figure out my own spirituality on but i know many many many many people who do who are norse pagans or heathens and Like how that shapes their role view. I've got the chance to talk to many many many of these people because they're my friends. They are all over viking reenactment. So you get this really unique perspective on leg to me like you know i feel a close connection with all of these characters but like there are people who do you know like are devoted stem lake here and now and it's just super interesting but as far as like back then like in the viking age is kind of hard to say only because what we know of them it sets been written down Was written down late. Two hundred years after the viking age by the christian ancestors of the pagans who actually did worship these gods so There's like an extra level of bias to unpack there. We'll try to say. Oh well this is what the vikings believed with the modern day. Practitioners these norse pagans. You're talking about a curiosity always had because in if you follow a nurse mythology probably heard the word ragnarok or if you if you like the hemsworth so you probably have heard of brag narok. Radnor rock is the dawn or excuse me rather the collapse of the gods and so for a modern day. Practitioner did rock happen or for a modern day practitioners standing how this into modern science. I'm just curious because it's something that i've always wondered about with god's with greek mythology with north mythology. Like did they die off. And then did we like neil gaiman in american gods style like will them back into existence with worship or rate. This is what i think about wolf indeed and honestly like not to spoil the ending for listeners. But like i feel like the witches heart absolutely goes that route like like the ending. One hundred percent goes there like areas satisfying ending. Everybody very satisfied much. Thank you so much. But as the question of like rb living in a pre or post arachne rock world. I have no idea. I'm gonna be calling your friends and we were going to be interviewing the journalist style. We don't think we so interesting. We let the freeze. Viking reenactment pass unnoticed. I'm glad you brought that up so quickly. Can you quickly summarize what this it sounds. Seem self evident but i don't want to assume that you are actually reenacting either. Biking parts of viking or viking epoch clashes wars but we share with our listeners. Exactly what one is. When one is a viking reenactor through yes that is an excellent question because there is a semantic difference between a reenactment and living history and a lot of people do make that distinction. And it's sometimes it's just easier to say. I'm a viking reenactor than i do. Viking age living history like because people are like what is that well so Reenactment like kind of sounds like you're reenacting like an actual events likes of a warrior actors like world war two rain actors on. I guess it is more accurate to say that. I do viking age living history because we are trying to reconstruct blake away of life. We do like experimental archaeology and like cook with like recipes or cooked ingredients that they be found evidence for in late graves and stuff and do crafts and allow people do combat. That's the big draw But it's less like oh i'm pretending to be You know the specific historical person and more like what would have been like if i lived with thousand years ago more what. It is now one. Once when i was in middle school my family went to one time as no williamsburg williamstown williamsburg. We're still so you know what i mean not williamstown where the theater is no. No it is williamsburgh ago where people are living as if it's the nineteen hundred still and it's a town that exists with no technology past eighteen. Right let's say eighteen sixty. I'm not sure. And i got to tell you that there was a six flags across the street and i would much rather have been there so then you take it back another thousand years. I'm not sure i do. I want to eat this. Recipe that you are making yes or no streamer skip. Yes you do want to eat it. tell me about it. Tell me pichai well. There's a lot of turnips potatoes. Ten strong start. I personally have developed an affinity return a but that's just me you can really spice them up and then with like cheese. Yes so like okay. One of the people my group makes like turnips outcrop. Just like cheesy slice tournaments and delicious. Not necessarily something. The vikings would have come up with the alberton period period accurate. Put it out about five hundred hundred. Can you see them with potatoes. And they're like biking acts like. I'm sorry you're not on those potatoes juliane so basically not not necessarily a recipe that they were making frequently. No okay is there one that you know that they made that you could share with us a lot of stews. Okay go out. A lot of fish i mean. They didn't pass down recipes like guilty recipe. Book that i have is lake. People like reconstructed them and it was like. Here's a bunch of ingredients that were available in these regions. Here is how they would have put them together. Maybe make it taste good. We hope a my my gut reaction right now. Is that your follow up to. This is probably not a viking cookbook. That's my gut reaction feels like it would be limited at this point to a hat recipe or so hate the one hundred percent and there's also there's also the leader group has also like a cook like shops and he just comes up with things and it's just like oh we have all these ingredients. Let's make this random thing so there's not really. We don't really have any restaurant. okay we're going. get to the book. But here's aria. The viking living history is basically you just standing around not having anything at all and not knowing how but but this is this is a hopefully a comedic setup for you to tell me that there were certain tools that would surprise me that they had 'cause mussa be like. Can i cut that. I don't have a knife here. You have this hammer. can you know so anyway. can you share with me. What it actually is like big definitely had knives wanted. I know but sometimes comedy you have to really aggressively one way. Okay so there so can you. Can you share a little bit. About what the what you're set up would be around you while you're doing the living history so we'd have cook fire. That's probably the most important we have like a frame tense. And some kind of lift up one end to like make it into a market stall We actually have been to like. There's a couple of sites across the country where there's actually a viking hall and lake will like drive ten hours hang out there and it's amazing But a lot of the times. Like i'll i'll bring out because i do weaving so i will let crowded and like the the combat people will do their fighting and eat. There's a lot a lot of sitting around the campfire a lot. A lot of cooking of eating drinking and the alcohol is a kind of beer. Probably need i guess yeah. Meat is like super popular but Back then it would have been more likely to be like aol just because it takes a lot of honey to make me a lot of honey. So i'm pretty sure. It was more like a ceremonial kind of bridge everyday beverage. But that's just my my own guess. Well much to kate's chagrin. I'm going to take it away from the tools to take back to your book. And i want to talk about the character of scotty and so do you think it's fair to say that scotty is the norse somewhat equivalent to artemis or diana in greek and roman mythology. Ish like she has. She hunts on these. She's she does. Sometimes she like possibly like. I don't i don't necessarily correlating like the gods with other gods on because there are some major differences but like they do they do definitely have that same associations like the huntress and i love artists But like i see them so much differently like when i picture them artistically incredible different yes but yeah like i mean they're hunters. I just scotty and anger boat. And i hope i'm not giving anything away here but there's is is it okay if i continued you know. There's some tension there. You just say that. There's some really beautiful tension there and i do want to bring it back to how you fleshed out these characters and when you first start what what was the impetus of this book like what was. The spark was at a certain character. Certain god did you wake up and throw. Were hit you with lightning. And you're like. I'm going to write a book like what started all of this. I at the time i was i was in the class. A learning and getting more interested in this character mongo up. But i really really liked loki. Loki was just fantastic is fantastic and so i was like Low key book from the point of view of one of his wives and then it took over the book like it was it was. I mean never started off being about located. It was always her story as to how their relationship progressed on. I did not see that coming was writing it. I am a total pancer. Like which means i never have an outline. I just like go So it was a surprise. Will you explain that freeze to me. Oh sorry so i guess. A lot of writers online use the terms like panting plotting. Like when you're a pancer. You fly by the seat of your pants. You have no idea what's going to happen or maybe you. You caught a little bit. An plotters thirty page outline that they are following while they right and so good for them. But i cannot do that. What would you think it is about plotting or having an outline. They they rebel against like. What does it fill you with. I i kind of prefer like i love letting the characters tell the story like i just like i'm i feel like i'm just along for the ride. Sometimes you know. Like i want i really get to know a character and it's pretty easy with more scientology because the plots kinda already they're like and that's not easy. I should say the bones of the plot. What's going to happen but as far as getting there that was that was the surprise. What did what did you learn about yourself as a writer during the process of this book. Oh my gosh. This was first book that i've written a couple but this is my first ever published novel and this was an all of the taught me that i could write a book like a stand alone book because i been working on leg a series another series and i was like. Oh i'm never going to be able to write a book and this book taught me that i could write a book so we're not going to have a follow up to the which is what you're saying. I'm your committee mean standalone. I say so. What are what is your like routine like that has to be the same every day but generally speaking how is writing incorporated into your life. It's like it's hard these days. I feel like i do have a day job but when i wrote the witches heart ten years ago i was in college and i was writing like three in the morning. When i shouldn't be doing homework. I wrote in late. The first draft only three weeks. So late what i was a monster yeah. I'm so sorry that that's a good answer but that was ten years ago. So what happened using saved a lot has passed. Yeah I had been. I was keeping the richest heart pretty close to my chest. It more than anything i've ever written. I feel like it was like a huge part of me. I was so scared. 'til let anybody see it and like you know. Put it out there to kind of be judged or rejected. And i i so i i tried to get all of my other books published before that and that was my last one and so in two thousand eighteen. Actually after searching came out. I i would like you know this is i was like this book is so close to my heart. I feel nobody's going to care about it. It's just like some some reclusive which there all day and then Certainly came out and i'm like. Oh maybe there's a market for which is like so. Yeah that was it. Took me like you know seven years to even get it out there. But that's why it took so long so you had other books that you had finished and tried to sell. Couldn't sell right and then did. What was the submission process for the witches heart. So i always knew that traditional publishing was the way that i wanted to go on self publishing I have so much respect for anybody who chooses to go publishing because like it is my do it have to like hustle and they are just amazing But for me. I always like i always knew that i wanted to do traditional publishing and the first step in that process is you find an agent and that's the part that took me five years to even get your foot in the door is to is to get an agent and then once you revise the book with your agent on your agent puts it on on submission to editors who are associated with publishing houses. So that took another couple months and then surprise book. What was it about traditional publishing that you were so committed to being your path I've always had pretty severe imposter syndrome. Sorry not like vulnerable on main. But i've always been no. Let's get let's do this. let's go. i've always been really really shy. So like traditional publishing is like i have. I have the support network. Almost like my agent my editor like the publicity marketing folks like who are amazing like all these people who are telling me like you can do it. You can do it like you've got this like just to get to the point before the readers even actually have the book in their hands like to be like this works. This doesn't because i've always been such like such imposter. Like is is my book. Good like i don't know. I don't feel like i could just put it out there without getting feedback from a bunch of people i league does that make sense that weird because i think a lot a lot of people who want to be published at the big five or just like a really strong independent house. It's like they. They want that stamp of approval that they have made it through at least that over that first hurdle so that they're not trying to self published a book when really all the feedback is coming from family and friends and like you know. Everyone's going to tell you look great and then you've got this false sense but it all your ridiculously insecure about. It just seems like a tough place to be for a lot of writers. Virtually the conversation we had as i was cooking dinner last night talking about my so yeah we get like one hundred percent actually like one of one of my fellow debut authors just tweeted something about you know like the impostor syndrome like hasn't gotten any better after the book deal correct like it has actually gotten worse so it's like it never ends and you just kind of have to find the people who are going to continue to support you and tell you you know when things are just okay and when you should push back on other things and just like i'm just so grateful to have that like beyond words the grateful absolutely that is so huge and so for the people who are going to read or have read which is heart if you were to compile a list of Other norse related reeds for example. I always like to bring it back to. Neil gaiman because neil gaiman like what do you think about norse mythology. Is that something that people should should have or. There's the famous the tales of norse mythology. Really beautiful book. That's kind of one of those like you know embossed to readers. Yeah so. I mean that's where i get. I'm like who's the translator because my friends showed me that book i was like but who translated at be just because i like i've studied old norse in the classroom and i know that translations on i don't know if you've read like the the new beowulf translation like that's an example of how like nuance some translations can be on of the tra translations that have come down to us have been by by like a certain group of people and so when you get a different perspective on like how to translate things It could be really groundbreaking. So i i do like neil games version but i i was a sucker for american gods like i world. Yeah many many times the whole like the whole thing. We're like and odin as a two-man con. I was like yes. Yes that's exactly how it is. I just loved that part. So i love american. Gods haven't seen the show. But i do like game. Norse mythology Kevin crossley holland's norse mythology. Probably my favorite retelling though And i think pantheon. Books publishes that ironically. But i really really like that one. And then like there's the pros and the poetic edda if you really wanted to to dig into like what. The midst are in kind of their original form from the twelve hundred when they were. I read down. Do you think. That's more of a scholarly endeavor or could that be someone who wants to casually expand their their knowledge so that's a great question like some translations are kind of more readable than others. I know dr jackson crawford who is like pretty prominent old nor sky professor. I should say he's a professor. He does use you old guy online handle twitter handle. He does video series on youtube on youtube. Youtube video theories on youtube about old norse and norse mythology and all kinds of stuff and dr crawford just released like i think last year the year before translation of attica solely. It's out there. And i think that like people can pick it up. You don't necessarily have to be like a dollar to pick it up but it's it's really interesting to look at the retailing's versus the actual source material and you're like okay. Where did the storyteller this part. And i did that old lot in the which is hard. I mean like for my league research. I even back and looked at some of the original manuscripts. So yeah on the internet of course because i don't live in iceland. I wish but i thought i read that. You did either semester. A year in sweden so the place that catherine i wanna go once. The world opens up again. Tops on our list is for me. It's copenhagen but only because they have great restaurants there but is there a location or are they going to serve a lotta parsnips turnips turnips. Both actually sorry. Did i interrupt your it. i'm just so deepened. My copenhagen restaurant scene right on the head. Just going to say i have negative feelings about parsnips but go on to know what's up with you in person fucking there. No turnips are they. Turn up one of these or they took different okay. Is there like a really amazing viking. Norse locale in scandinavia. Like would you recommend as a travel agent piano as a nurse. A obsession est as catherine is. Where is the number one destination in scandinavia to scratch that itch on my god there are so many. Need your top one. Three is fine. It doesn't even need to be. You could get off the damn. There's that's actually number two but if it's like up there that's what we want to know. Okay there's the oslo ships museum in norway. Which i've always wanted to go to because i it just is amazing and i love like massive. One is inside barrios. Yes or two women. I'm obsessed. i'm obsessed. I love it. They were women who were very there. I have a lot of thoughts on. Viking women forever okay. So that's the number one desert another one popping into mind and we can take a little train over to denmark I don't know of any in denmark. i mostly 'cause i knew like my grandpa was from sweden and i've been in a couple of times so burqa sweden You'd have to take a boat to get to the island. But they have a brand new exhibit there and the re-enactors or they're over the summer. And i'm obsessed and i can't wait to go back. I got to visit a couple of years ago. Now are these. Re-enactors are living history. Sorry living history. Okay sorry. I just want to clarify. Because i know the distinction. Now so okay. That's a good one. Because i think both of them but specifically the oslo one because we could probably find some good restaurants in oslo to search for sure with simone turnips go see some long boots and get a cocktail in all of the same day. Well yes d. You'd be excited for this. If this happened you want to do this right. Go to oslo and see the ship museum. You all right so we. Our final question is the trickiest. Which my gosh wait. I'm going to warm you up with a pre final question. Okay okay bringing it back once again to the book you're welcome. I'm here for this debris into the but so the three children of logie and anger bora for listeners. We've got fend rear. Which is like the biggest wolf in the world. Basically is what you're saying. Jackman bigger than hugh jackman. Thank you for that hell. Who is the the the female ruler of the underworld and then you're among gunter. There's different ways of saying the mid guard surfeit who lies at the bottom of the ocean and his body is big in circles the entire world. We've not proven doesn't exist. Which could totally be in the ocean considering we only know about three percent of it so first of all for anyone who's having a rough time with their kids like feel better that you didn't pump out threes these little trio right but for you genevieve like if you just had to have those babies for the rest of your life. A which door would you choose then. Rear your manga under or hell hell one hundred percent as she's my baby my baby guy. Yeah it's so weird to like call. You know the ruler of the underworld your baby. But i know that you mentioned hell like earlier in in in our conversation and i just wanna make you aware if you're not already aware of the book the monsters trialed is started reading and i'm not done with it but it is basically hells like story and it's young adult book but like hell is just like a bratty teenager and it's from her point of view and she's like oh you think mom would have stopped after one like like. It's just so adorable. Young dull interpretation awesome. It's very like snarky teenager. And like you know like are versions of anger. Boat are not in line like at all but at the same time. Like there's a million ways to write this character is we have no idea anything about her except like two little mentions so there's a million ways the story could have been written and like you know none of them are wrong totally and well. That's a perfect segue to this question to which there is a wrong answer. What is your favorite cookie and now this if you wanna get if you want to get crazy and name some like random cookie you once had after. That's cool but for now. Stick to like the standards right like the oatmeal raisins the chocolate chips. The peanut butter's like i'm going to apologize for my controlling wife. When he you just go ahead and tell us we'll cookie from the standard list and then you can get a little crazy if you love a double dipped oreo peanut butter something. You want to add it. The one place but i the standard. I love snickerdoodles no-brainer. So you think you like snickerdoodles better than go raisin and more like an oatmeal chocolate chip like snicker doodle. Other people are just going to play my part. Okay and is there some fancy cookie that you wanna add that was so good or is it is snickerdoodles a fantastic answer by the way. So if you're going to stick with that that's cool to. My mom would make these christmas cookies that she founded a magazine one time and they were just like gingerbread but with like a reecey cup inside and i was like. Oh this is very good. And the same thing with like a peppermint patty sookie. But the outside was like chocolate cookie. They were just released often. Squishy and delicious So that's what comes to mind. When i think fancy but other than those special once a year cookies i gotta see snicker anon here. I was hoping that you were gonna say there was like some swedish cookie made with turn up honey that they didn't put into. The mead goes into the turnip cookie. All because can't stop giving me ideas for my biking. The follow up smash hit the which is heart. Got which is my gosh. Wow i n z mic drop. No honestly i think this could work. Let's call your agent. The earth is coming up in like you're gonna have to recipe tests so two years you need. You think that sounds about right because you got to be to forty so long okay. Don't worry we'll let you down. Congratulations genevieve the book is amazing. And thank you for taking the time thank you. It has been an honor awesome. Care bye thank you. That is a wrap. Thank you for listening to season. Four of free cookies. However you want to the first show back for season four. This podcast is produced lizzy collins of and be radio. You should check out her new picks for podcast right you. Don't you have some great new art as well for radio does also check out her patriot for be radio because she regularly puts delicious recipes. You can support this show by reading in reviewing the show on apple podcasts. In fact since we were last on during season three free cookies. We've gotten three new reviews from listeners. Okay so jordan. No said really great. Listen no matter what's going on in the world. There's always something thought provoking the podcast is always worth listening to. Whether i'm familiar with the guests topic or not. Think jordan samantha. The nine mantha sim yet. That's probably more would. It was samantha. Than no no. No nanna samantha. Bananas samantha samantha. Okay she said one of my favorite podcasts and then a lot of other amazing things this wife and wife duo which i liked and then the last one actually from this past sunday from only mildly satisfied three thousand because there were a lot of other only mildly satisfieds before this particular one only mildly satisfied about themselves or about the ponca. Well it's review so its own inner demons that are coming out only mildly satisfied. Oh i always feel better. Having listened is the opening line to that. We're helping them feel satisfied. Not maybe just mildly. There's a lot of positive. And then at the end it says also can feel the pain and cates heart every time. There's yet another vote for chocolate. Chip is the favorite cookie at the end of the episode. He's fine she's getting sixty percent of the rations. Come is oh wow okay. But it's good to know that. Even though i always get upset at the chocolate chip it still remains fresh content every time it happens every single time. Even though i'm upset at the same thing people can feel my pain in new. Is that a tiny violin that you're playing playing a tiny tiny by. Everybody knows every free cookie. Listener knows that the chunks of raisins appear at the end of the show and that's and deed pieces of hail from the sky. Oh my god. Did you actually see the twitter fight between. What is the the famous racing company in the box. The the what is it. Get california raisins it was like. Ooh that's right. It was like national. Burn day or something. The other day like every you know it was like national like burn burn wendy's at messaged california raisins and was like is a startup and they basically were like stop burning cookies so it has been confirmed. Wendy's there will be no reason it frosty anytime soon. No there been you know collab- coming between california raisins and wendy's okay. Guys and like. I said this is where the best content lives in the final three minutes of the show. That's right current.