Secrets of a Dragon Slayer (Part 1) with John Kershaw
Hello and welcome to how to build a dating APP. This podcast will chronicle our journey of building. I and launching a brand new dating APP arraigned for this podcast is to take you through the whole experience of what it takes to build a dating APP from scratch and not just any dating but one that we really hope can take on the big competitors in the market. We're definitely going to be learning Jason Lessons along the way as this is the first of this girl that any of us have been involved with a none of us have worked in the dating industry or experts in data so really help as delve into the current dating landscape and online dating trends. We're going to be speaking with some of the leading dating industry experts breaks coaches an APP developers to share their insights on the industry in two thousand sixteen APP Creator John Kershaw stepped onto the set of the BBC television show dragons den to pitch his dating and social wet building platform he asked for an investment vestment of eighty thousand pounds for fifteen percent equity in his company and went on to receive offers for more five dragons after appearing on our podcast area the season to share his experience advice on building a niche dating up. We're delighted to welcome back to talk about his dragon. Dan Story on the realities of investment welcome to how to build a dating at presents secrets of a dragon slayer. Joan things are going back on the show to talk to us today I so I don't know dragons. Dan is a British television program. That's been running on the B._B._C. since two thousand five and the now on series sixteen the show gives entrepreneurs and opportunity to present business ideas to panel of five wealthy investors the dragons and pitch for financial to investment last offering a state of the company return. We also have a special guest host colleague Caitlyn. She's a big dragons den fans. She's excited to me you John. You are a CELEB- to us the John New appeared on dragons Dan on episode fifteen of the fourteenth series. I did found wikipedia those how many view as you're upset at around about three million two point eight million I think two point six four million hunter wikipedia but then we could have very reliable source everything that's a good. That's a big Tapu people looking at you. What so what made you in the street yeah just after I was on a date and recognize me and I was like all been worthwhile day? They recognize them. It was just like wondering sorry I did forgets mentioned I was on track was actually a friend to feel like it's a weird thing to drop pin on a date because it's like it's too big. It's not like Oh yeah. I went to Cyprus once. It's like Oh yeah I was on National T._V.. Doing this slightly ridiculous thing it's sort of the wrong size to drop in casually. How do you drop if you if you had to guess you'd be like us? I run Nisa investment now and then like dragons Dan. I don't talk about any found a day then you materialism would be faust the say let me tell you where you the design so what made you want to be on the show in the first place where you fan and did you mainly see as kind of good investment avenue and or a P._r.. Agency so the process of like the whole process is really he really long so I actually applied for Dragon Stan. I think in Twenty fifteen <hes> so the m fourteen haven't been invented at that point it was still just Brisa and person doing our P._R.. At the time just sort of sent me linked like hey you should apply for this is ridiculous Free Pa and I was like all right that sounds that sounds good so sent off the application as just Bressler and then they filter through all of that paper applicants and then they'll phony back if they you think that this may be something that I think a second phone interview what you Kinda do a bit more pitching and you start to send off the paperwork then you go in and they do like a screen test and you go via pitch and the list of then give you the filming day and then you go uh-huh and the still no guarantee that you watch TV so this is really really long process but at the very beginning we will wrestler. I like dragons. Dan I could potentially deal with the emotion emotional baggage of being the a funny one that they will hate if we went on so I just applied because it was just a free funny idea. We knew that we could always like tell them no later until I'm actually they're being filmed. I can always just walkaway. How did you watch the show previous low fund it is it's a good show and it's I was reading a few comments and things online and people feel maybe the now it's gone inviting businesses on based on their entertainment value you and almost if people can laugh at them for the ideas able but he didn't start that I guess it was more well? I mean it's entertainment TV like no one watches the apprentice because I want to know how to get head and business how to we know one watching love island thinking oh here's some good day advice. It's just entertainment. It's just sort of themed around business so I mean if they actually made it his a meeting between investors and people might want to invest in it'll be the most boring thing everyone involved so it is always being kind of light entertainment. Yeah I think now they've sorta figured out what works and what doesn't so I was in the Green Room in like a dozen of people and you could tale a mile off which owns the wholesome like Father Delta Combo which one's the Oh we've invented in you kind of apple juice and those one where they want a million pounds the one percent and it's like you're the one that Jones gets grumpy APP kind. You know these two general types and they have tried balanced the mail did you did you appreciate how good of a P._R.. Pechiney it could be I think so. I didn't have that many expectations because I've there's no uh-huh frame of reference. You can't look up online and see the value of the P._R.. Because it can vary so much so I spoke to a few different people before I went on and some I wanNA call them acts. I've been watching law America's got talent. Holidays reminded me some some people's businesses. It's a serious business not as time so some business it'll go on and if it's a really entertaining pitch they can get core of a million people looking up their website that night but if it's like like a cramp pitch or it's edited in such a way the come across his idiots they might not get anything or it might not even a pair on T._v.. It'll so it's it's it's really tricky to Kinda gauge it. Obviously it's great P._R.. But if you go on dragons den purely for the P._R.. You're just GONNA get in trouble because you literally have to sign documents say I am not doing this for Free P._R.. They legitimate business thing because if everyone just went on for Free P._R.. It would just be really frustrating. Straightening full dragon people he didn't have a clay and and I guess you need the numbers and the figures and everything tobacco up yeah open yes idea so you couldn't fake it just to go on yeah exactly exactly. Did they give you any advice. During the steps APPs the when you're giving your pitch and stuff like that before you did the actual in front of the dragons. Did they tell you think take stuff out. Put stuff in say that yes so it's fairly heavily modified what even from when I arrived at the studio to why no I actually pitched so does all the numbers and is the three minute pitch and you practice that to death and that's pretty much all wrapped up ahead of time because m fourteen is entertainment company that I mentioned that so in fourteen we make dating people and we make social people and I thought it would be a great idea to make dragon dating so they all get given an IPAD and they can match with each other than the production team with like Dante. That's awful. They said it in a very polite way. No show that will play well on TV and like a couple of days beforehand that would have been awful. Can you imagine watching the dragons all like swiping on each other and it would be just want to sit there and twelve. They're paying around yeah exactly so so in the end I went in. I'm one of the other people to go into them without a prompt the whole reason why I've got in if you watch the pitch back there's this giant T._v.. Screen that's basically there because otherwise I have nothing nothing has been made to look like a smartphone yeah TV that looks like a giant smartphone and it just shows like screen shots but that's purely that because otherwise I would not be holding anything so there was even discussion of me just walking holding an IPAD to be like look technology down and then stop doing my pitch so does everybody does. Everybody have to have a prop daily or looks much nicer because it's more interesting than just those standing there on iheartradio somewhere. I haven't seen at least one pro at laced Tevita Yeah. It just makes it slightly more interesting plus. You've got a shelf where you can put stuff and I went in there with one inch thick folder of Judy elections documents. I spent so long not <music> every every trademark. We've got every business deal we've got all of our profit and loss balance-sheets and by didn't use it once and I was slightly annoyed Dina Seal my working out no okay then fine. I guess you just trust I find because they just want to have in your head. I Guess Yeah Yeah I think it's also so the like Deborah can be like let me look at your copyright claim and then you bring out and she's like crap so having big T._v.. Screen was Kinda Fun. If it would and yet otherwise it's just needs to their with myself and my bed they made so there are a lot of things get changed so we dropped the Dragon Diane and I'm so happy about that and then in the morning I was chatting with one of the editors who I the original ask was going to be one hundred grand because it's like a nice round number one hundred ten percent and the Edita sober who gave me some advice which is the the hundred grand is almost a bit of a milestone and if you ask for one hundred grand or more they'll probably give you a bit of a grilling whereas if you ask for less than one hundred grounded doesn't kind of meat that mental will mark of like a big investment so they could potentially take a bit more of a gamble on it and there's this interesting 'cause one hundred grand I think is the most commonly asked for amount going there and ask for say eighty grand twenty grand in an investment like this doesn't make a huge amount of difference because you don't know whether you're gonNA get out but it means that they give you potentially an easy at time because it doesn't sort of set off any of those red flags so in the morning I walked ten going hundred ten percent and then by the time I went into picture it was a grand for fifteen percent. Yeah remember having the spoke with the editor. Do I need to sign something because like I already gave him my paperwork saying come up from asking the let out. I don't know if they were quite casual but they were like until you say out loud in the den. It can be kind of whatever you yeah five days when your bartering with them it comes down anyway. Doesn't it doesn't really matter what's on the paper yeah exactly so you you prepared to give twenty percent because one thing I noticed watching back as the even though you said fifteen percent on them twenty or twenty two hi there I mean that's the power thing it's just a negotiation thing that you go in mobile and they go in high goaling. I was expecting them to come in like the sun and I could be like now and then it came in an inconvenient amount. Did you have limit in your head when you walked in. Did you have a limit as well so so there are other GonNa give you a stupid offer or good offer and I was expecting them to give me like a stupid offer now and then accidentally pitched it really well. I gave me like a complete incredible offer accidentally do things amazing so then this might be an opportunity to mention the one of the things that they require before you go into the den is assigned declaration nation from everyone who owns business has a stake in your business thing like I give John the right to negotiate on my behalf. We just closed funding round with about seventeen investors involved the lie to sign about how about a month after they've just signed over to then get them to all agree. I can negotiate on their behalf with them. Having no control over anything wow and yeah I sort of pessimistically was like don't worry about it. Just GonNa Laugh out the room. It'll be fine. There's no risk of actually getting a dealer or anything like that and so does this moment of panic when the Dragon Stock giving me credible office this is not in any of my plan was expecting either left out of the room because it's something ridiculous frivolous all they give ridiculous offers like we just couldn't take and so when they said twenty percent I just panicking like if you go and African for fifteen a nice I twenty anti EU content that down without looking like a complete plum because it's it's so close yeah you wouldn't in real life. You wouldn't negotiate you something. That seems reasonable so yeah so then I have this sort sort of panicked afterwards being like how do I explain this to our investors. Seventeen staples thankfully is a cool good people so so they were happy to sign but yes so they will have to sign. Only one of them passed it to their lawyer. The lawyer replied back home. Why would you sign this ever? Sign responded asking. Would you like to pull out of dragon and then it was signed quickly because ultimately that's it and also I still control the majority stake in the company. I can kind of do what I want. It's more to see thing and you don't invest in people that you don't trust so they trust me to sort of make good decisions so we've got some practical dragons day in questions but then some. was later on we'll get some of your insights in investment in general help dragons den investment competitor other Roussy. You come down okay so you arrive at St Day on the day of filming. How's the experience of being there weightings be called in fuel? Pitch is terrifying. Advocate is the most noticed I've ever been so. I woke up at like five A._M.. Thankfully it's filmed in Manchester which is great for me because I live in Manchester so for me. It was like a half hour car ride so I turn up. I was the first one there which I think it's me. Bonus points I can use those bonus points thing but the person that which meant points need them. Maybe only gave him the investment. 'cause then you how keen they like this guy ten things things alley yeah so you turn up and you go in. They show you around and you can kind of see what's what and then you Kinda just go and sit in the green room and use white for other people to arrive and there's lots of little segments that they film throughout the day so who does the pre. There's an interview before going on then does all of the shots of you gung in the elevator pressing the buttons standing there. That's all down ahead of your pitch because they have to move on cameras around so the shot when the doors open and you walk through and it's face the cameras looking at you you do that and you have to pretend that you can see the dragons in your life and then I saw you do all of those kinds of little bits of filming and then yeah you make up done which is someone who like profusely sweats like this is like a challenge <hes> and then there's all the various sort of production. It's a really well oiled machine because they've done it so long yeah but the there's loads of fun little bits constantly checking to make sure that you're still wearing all your clothes. The same way that you make up hasn't changed consistency. Just look at it with by ages Putney lost one. They said on the clip that you like the awesome Dave I'm guessing now is like middle of the day so they jumble everyone up so there's like twelve I dunno actually I can't remember how many people I think there's like a dozen people. I can't remember how many pitches there are in a day and then they just edit them round to be in whatever order kind of fits but the pitch is three minutes but the Q._N._a. can be Alice and then it's edited down to the ten minutes that you see so I was in two hours of just come yeah. I was talking with the dragons for a couple of hours and then edited down to my best ten minutes because they will give you offers and so yeah if you if they're not going to give you offers. They'll feel worth ten minutes. They do give you the best ten minutes so I was very happy with that too. That's a long time into just stand in the same spot being grilled yeah very it was it was terrifying Quebec's. We didn't say I mean the laws of boring. That's the Ansi parts of the of the daily don't see so to has has a big economists platform that he owns and there was a long discussion about integrating that ecommerce platform with 'em fourteen so that we offer white label economists so his actual offer Cain with that platform and Deborah's offer uh came with the proviso that didn't use that platform because it would take focus away so these other additional dynamics that really boring and that kind of complicates they'd have to spend the full ten minutes just explaining these things so I think they just kind of just showed the best most interesting <unk> but also strings the narrative together so that you understand it so when you are in the Green Room with the other contestants I read that you know allowed to speak to each other. Is that true true that just because that sounds an awkward if you're in it'd be waited now Chad to people everyone's just really nervous. I've kind of keeping to themselves in his own so yeah so one thing that does happen there. was I mean everything that happened with surprise because it's a little weird but you you wait in the green room and then they'll cool down to the set yeah sorry the definitely a real a house you go through the pitch and then you not allowed back to the green room you are them whisked away to your own little individual kind of waiting room how maybe busy and then that's yeah so you come you. Don't talk to people once they've come back in or out or anything. I guess it's just that you don't know what happened and also I guess maybe if Dryden's right already good mood. It'll kind of skew if you knew what was going home yeah okay. That's a myth busted. Did you know we'll all do you are going to be and so when he arrived in the morning. Did they say oh. You're in at one. No so those no running older they just they give us much advanced warning as possible also I was. I was given four five minutes notice okay. This is enough time and then five minutes late. Charles told fifteen minutes I guess because they try and get you prepared based on how the pitches going maybe the other pitch started bombing and so this will in the next on and and so when fifty minutes and then actually we need you down right now and so I had a few minutes notice which I'm kind of glad about because I didn't have enough time to worry worry my delve into a nervous wreck. Yeah I suppose you if you know by applying your potentially going to be doing this thing but this a certain amount of nerves on the day when she see the cameras in the studio and the Senate and everything that must kick in and once you standing eh elevate the about and they will refuse to open the doors if you don't press the button which is my favorite thing so this was one quick questions that will bump it up to NASA. We're talking about the elevator. The innovates Oh right or is it. I didn't know until I literally saw that that it is not a real yeah. You need to put a warning on this episode. If you like dragons ends Dan don't listen to this peaking too far behind the someone's going to watch an tell everyone ever watched that the problem is right. If you go then it's not real elevator some little just looking at like obviously yeah obviously offense. This episode is digitally secrets of dragon slash so the secrets thing I've been going into this nine that can as him crazy secrets like ages before you'll pitch rich so they can get all the different camera angles one of the panels just as missing camera but you have to stand like look at the lights and so he stunned they're looking at where it goes like zero. We'll do three four and you can hear someone going Click Borelli black. It's moving no they didn't lift up. He's actually on the same floors where the dragons from one another so the green room somewhere else but all that little corridor. It's all Wimsatt so it's not like the little car is a different set so you walk onto this at and it is fleeing case done. All the cameras are Kinda hidden behind one way mirrors old COLLINA's feels really weird because you know surrounded by like dozens of people but you fail completely isolated because you can't see anyone you can just kind of here people because the film's everyone's like hushed voices and it's just it's weird so it is kind of like a closed warehouse us and Yeah Yeah so interesting for me is what's real and what's not like you do literally stand in area you wait for that red light to go green you go you press the button and then when those elevator doors open that is the first time you've seen them and you just start like all of that is one hundred percent real and so you walk to your mark mark on the floor and you just I think I don't know if they even tell you about it just because everyone seemed like everyone knows walk at that point because I watched this morning to see whether you looked down to find can you didn't professional professionals to stay healthy Klay Metro ability to just walk and stop need training. You know it's pretty nice bump into any of them. I didn't like stop my pitch in the elevator. That would have mixed it up. If you just came out talking already eh they wouldn't apply again have any snacks grain room. This is the hot stuff we need about. I think I do believe Steve was like a snack bar but I also believe the I was breaking it and so refused we actually because I kept a diary which I was reading this morning because my terrible and there is like genuine like I don't know what I'm going to go on at the time my coffee really carefully because if you're on like a coffee comedown then you have to pitch for three hours or have you need to Lou break come out. You can't be like I'm just going to I made sure on my way to the unlike pre Dan. We we important stuff though genuinely important would have ruined the pets. You need to know the dragons meet the toilet because I go between between pitches the Dragon I K- what dragons did you have on the panel of your F- site and did you have any of them in mind before you went in so p or neck and I knew Knicks Work App Moon peg which is very much analytics driven business. It's a business that you can put in a spreadsheet and see exactly how it works so I kind of I definitely wanted him involved because dating apps very much analytical businesses and so does definitely parallels that ended its B._T._c. seems like a really nice guy too was that Deborah and Sarah Sarah Yeah so yeah in hindsight should've deborah but you know we learn why I follow her on twitter and she's great just like I've ever reached out now. Now I feel like it's definitely a faux pot like so I turned down on public TV and then they will actually collapsed. Do you know she loved you you basically she's literally said she loved you now. You've always got that just send to the link center the Youtube this no she loves them. Know Ruin thing you knew that you would have been happy with Nick and then when so so niccolo would have been fine nick and Peter That's great by pitas known fold like tech amount having a bit of like additional money pretty good contacts and so they will kind of default goto based on what our businesses so it was it wasn't a particularly hard decision when office roll five and those who said we will deal with us to not the other three. I would've loved to get all five. I probably would have closed that deal because it's so ridiculous <hes> but yeah Sarah said I'd be happy to invest alongside any number two at the same Denver said the same and then those who are like nope just does great Arinda that kind of got to be awkward. Well edited like that but that was I think people didn't really want upon them with two we'll so this is where other bits going on where like to bring in his ecommerce platform and so there was then some awkwardness us there but yeah the all slot awkward because I forgot nickname yeah. That's why I said. I'd like to accept the upper from you guys from U._T.. Like yeah I may have forgotten nickname but under pressure I mean I forget everyone's name at the best time so famous person who I've literally seen every week. It's GonNa Forget that thanks Brian. I think I remembered his name but I wasn't hundred percent soon. I was right and wrong name. I'd like to take a Mike no yeah at least it was two of them if it was it was just him take you would've taken someone else's off just because I myself same harassment I was reading read it. Bode Abed dragons. Dan People am set the other dragons now at this point like sixteen series in must get annoyed when pizza goes in because it's almost guaranteed that people are GonNa go with pizza at the state because he's a spice my successful as well yeah. It's almost like Pizza Pie James. Dan Dot reflects real investment but some investors you some some investors eh because they've got money so think you're never going to get away from that like all of them. Bring different things to the table <hes> Tino Kemmel competitive. I guess I'm out I've committed to having five dragons. <hes> thing that for the always GonNa do that gave to the strongest and yeah it's good to get a range of people and it's nice that changes up so because different people have different strengths when you offered given the offers and you went off the door locking them as soon as I go all the office I knew exactly. Why won't you just pretend there's a bit in that's not the didn't make into T._V.? Show <hes> because there was so many kind of weird bedside deals going on. I had to paper off Deborah and borrow a pen anywhere I wrote down all different deals who would work with WHO and what combinations Whi- which is also why if you watch the pinch back halfway through me deliberating subtly gain a piece of paper in my hands thank which kept memento secretly hoping that it was I actually made the edit and then I could like frame it but now it's just the scrap of paper in folders frame your shirt or something yeah I still wear though so the actual lucky show my actual spoiled yeah nothing that give you close. He signed up in really rough glades chugging flip flops combine so as long as it's not <hes> stripy all patents or branded one these it's just you should go. That's my weekend scathing Collins on Youtube about my pitch Sahlins. It was like he needs to on the back of his shirt like all. This podcast realize that you were sitting down for a long time is my comment was should've paid attention because the border of staff constrain your clothes for. Search teams and then sign them which amateur mistake there creased scathing things on can say than you did all right I mean if you come into the rest which is kind of block and batum report so that's yeah I think made it very stuck with the degree of my Momma crease to easily driving the seatbelt. Yeah the secret secret the most men so you as we've said he received office from five dragons and you went on to accept the joint from Jones Nick Jenkins twenty percent of the business what happened after you left the room having accepted the offer where you taking them. I'm not GONNA come tight. You have with the dragons so the first one it is kind of will you out and go oh well them and then they will you off into sort of little side room. That's just a little Scott. It's why they just keep talent and it's just a little room and you just Kinda sit there and the like to eat potato pulling these panicked and they're what what's an offer the Jacob potatoes. I'll have a potato so I've got my son just because I was just like this is so bizarre I need to document everything being all that phones on that so I just have like a photo of potato as like my memento memento for the day. Can you give cycling. I can see if I can find it. If I can tell you people want to say we'll talk egg where it went viral fill. The potatoes got the scope nope none of the range potatoes but we'll see if I can't find this. It'll be a nightmare any I'm not gonNA lie any old potato scandal all star topping. Did you have sink it was like baked beans and cheese like a good choice phone up like everyone can think to phone like the staff all like my parents my sister and I saw and they're like N._p._R.. Nickleby round and a few minutes if they can spare and so then after like twenty minutes and a potato I go out into the car. It'll amend like ask Nick. I'm like that and they film a little behind the scenes thing because if you watch any of the what happened next shows shuttle behind the scenes I fell for everyone <hes> and so we have little fake conversation well like we talk about like polite in the den things and then the film crew goes away now we can talk gossip and then I managed to take a Selfie fat was some good advice Samo Charlie lasta currently lumine best adviser Earthy Day. She make sure you got to sell and I was like yes because that's the proof you need you doubt is that is the evidence is all the potato felt so you have until the show yeah and I can't publish it anyway so I just kept on a year and a half and then it was so that's at least you kind of like more of a human moment with them. Yeah Yeah which is nice and then they say that like their lawyers will be in touch with paperwork. Can you just kind of keep vaguely contact with each other to follow each other on social media. <hes> I feel like probably not well. Not many of them actually have social media presences rabbi team yeah too busy busy my favorite who runs her own step Deborah. I have a love thing with Deborah when I used to watch the show I just when when you watch the show kind of she's probably got like a dragon persona and when you see her and other things and she's completely differently deborah she you can definitely is how good day or a bad day when you show sometimes she's really lovely really understanding that is she just doesn't have any patients. Thanks that's well. That's one of the things I read like about her and Dr the other dragons is the world is amplified and time about you. If you start taking the pests they can sense it immediately 'cause they've seen so many pitches and they will just go for you because they know it entertaining if they rip you apart and so so you get these kinds of pushbacks. which is you know you probably head? How're you doing this for the shy that's fine? Oh go yeah so the way I viewed it. Which I think is a successful strategy so everyone pens and papers that they're viewed? You'd the whole thing as assaultive game will puzzle between three competing parties me an N._p._R.. An money this is the dragons they want to look it on TV and they want a good investment and as the production crew who WanNa make sure that the dragons happy and they want good TV yeah so the production crew cab whether or not the deal is good on all. I need to make sure that on good TV so that the production crews happy but I need to make actual. I'm not taking the past so the dragons just like what you're doing so you end up sort of playing a bit of a game where it sort of how do I get what whilst also making sure that everyone gets while they won so I'm not gonNA come in with ridiculous Dale. The is just going to annoyed dragons. I'm not gonNA focus on boring things because then it's going to be mad TV by need to make sure I actually make good offer that does like a nice to way conversation yeah in a sense it sort of Improv style what you're just making sure that your factory in what other people want to get out of that situation. I think that is one of the things that worked well for us than having credible business but maybe a training. I think so you've you've had media training in the post. I well that might be exaggeration so I have actually have media-training and guy sort of said that he thought I'd already have media-training. I've spoken on podcast and I know that you meant to answer questions spy including the question in the answer and to talk very helpful things like this is very helpful to include the question. See Training coming so yes I like. I know how to kind of do that kind of stuff. I've been around like stage in theory type. Things stage obviously terrified but like I know how you can project yourself. I know how to pitch and also going into the den. What you see is the most polished three minutes of my life so we closed the funding ground about a month before I went on Dragonstar and that's a whole other story Oy but that ground was that a nine months into making so I'd spent nine months talking to terrifying venture capitalists Angel Investors Everyone Polishing Polishing Polishing pitch and pitching in front of rooms of people on stages in competitions and and so when I went on dragons them I've never felt as prepared about anything before in my life? I know that the pitch works. I know the pace it goes. I I know where to laugh. Points are in an as soon as soon as you can pitch in a way that you're like. I'm GonNa tell a joke in this page. 'CAUSE I know it'll make you like me and then you tell a joke and then they'll laugh and it's like got. Yes Hook Line sinker now onboard. Is that line the bristle line. Does I love every single time yes or no so. I haven't pitched this in two years pitch now. So I think is sucks pay. Do you want me to get my script lit. I still have my scrap scraped yeah well. It's my pitch so it's this is probably the twentieth version of this same pitch and they all have the words specificity in because I learned how to say that and say what specificities every single page this morning I watched and you sit down. That's impressive impressive specificity bygone literally by design for the people people who aren't paying attention about my pitch interesting word then paying attention from funny joke for I describe what one businesses connecting people with those stroke beds imagine you get off almost every time when people on expect hand <hes> so yeah so so the pitch the pitch is it's really interesting for me seeing how the pitches evolved because you you'll telling a little store. You've only got three minutes and it's got these cute little punch lines. I think pitch starts with like sounds credible hilarious joke okay actually no this is a joke product followed up by surprisingly good numbers followed up by a surprisingly solid roadmap of like future development and a huge expansion opportunity and and you'll left at the end feeling like this whole business is really really credible because a little bit of self deprecating break it down and then build it back up again so people are in a good mood and impressed and that's how you want people when you pitch coach so it's an it's so contrived but it's kind of fun. I'm by coincided with specificity so would you recommend for nauseous. Dragons den pitches but pitches. Oh presence is in general trying to get it off is a good tactic to you're gonNA say try and say what Sei specificity. I think I think if you try and make it. I don't know so so it's awkward because Breslow is designed to be funny. It was designed to get media media attention. That's why it's literally started as a joke idea so it's kind of got inherent thing if you like are we work in roof insurance and then you try and make funny quip. It's no like it has to be the must be one must be a roof. Let's not go there and I think that is very five. Your head and that's not funny funny. See this is the problem. This is the exact problem I know. We need a joke in here. Factor lends itself to being funny. It's meant to be funny. The whole point of birth low is that you don't take it to seriously so everyone's in on the joke. It's not that you're trying to do stand up. It's like us. This is a little bit self deprecating. Oh by the way we've might quarter-million matches we will have no frame of reference that might be a lot that might be numb but it's a big number following a laugh and so you get that kind of juxtaposition and if you go happy days so I think with pitching just know that the person you'll pitching to wants to be interested in wants to be successful. It's not a your desperately trying to get their approval because then it's never going to work just having a conversation that you happen to prepared for nine uh-huh to make sure that you're getting across all the right information I would I would recommend getting feedback or if you don't hate the sound of your voice recording it and just listening back listening with a critical demo- pitches tend to be career opportunities like dragons Dan the other avenues. You've gone that. Do they tend to be a three minute thing. Is that Coleman time I mean most pitches are so I've done kind of competitive pitching which is like a list of competitions and they're always like ten minutes. Oh five minutes some most people when you're at that stage business you learn three minute pitch five minute pitch a ten minute pitch and potentially a twenty minute pitch and you also have your pitch available as one she evaded four writing and you have what's called a pitch deck which is a load of slide shows and you typically have two versions of that like the short one. That's just the headlines that's basically the do you want to have a conversation about this and then the longer will will the numbers which is having a conversation about this his like some more meaningful stuff and you. It's really tiring to give for investment because you need to keep all of these up-to-date like oh I can improve this and then how does that fit into this this this so when you're when you're doing these competitions people typically have pre-prepared one. That's the right at length and you you work really hard to get as much in and if you can end it like bang on time you win. It looks really good and some of them have literally timer than yeah so I've done with my home. After free minutes. The at home goes off terrifying. I finished with like fifteen seconds to go because can feel about people interacting your pictures I ever happened not interrupting way interrupting and ask question about something pre prepared speech. I want to give it eh questions going yeah. No one ever does us they normally it's time to on. They'll have a Q. and A. Section afterwards so the most common pitch full might you see is like person does a pitch. I've won applaud scrap scope and then there's is a little very brief Q._N._A.. Where the Haskell Softball Q._A. Questions <hes> but the pitch the fomenting of the pitch you can google us online is basically like six facts? You do like who we are. What the problem is what the Solution Lucien is how much traction you've got a what your team is and it's a tried and it just the full Matt? Every single pitch dot comes in <hes> which is good and bad. It's good because it means you can skim through the money quickly <hes> but it's not because they're already boring and I guess she needs to be prepared to give the pitch without the pitch deck. Sometimes yeah 'cause I listen to the startup Putin. They've set up just listened to the he's a guy from Duga think and the guy said like let's go over the street and get some lunch and then we'll come across the street. He's the pavement pitch me now without you pitch decks but I think if you think of the pitch as pre-prepared thing then you're gonna fail if you think if you'll pay it is like well you'll actually just talking about your business and you know no your business inside now so it sounds like tell me about your podcast. You should be able to be like Oh. It's like business podcast. You shouldn't be like Oh let me just remember the pitch you just you just talking about it and you go over it so much so often the it's more a reflection is more three minute version of what you can talk about hours rather than a thing. That's separate so you should be able to talk quite happily about what your business but there are also techniques when you're pitching to stop getting muddled will stop w like going down a rabbit hole. You didn't intend to go down and you'll see that listening to yourself talking about something. That's that's ridiculous. <hes> I can give you an example of that if you had like so early on in the days. I of M fourteen so we now the pitches basically if you wanNA dating app you on the Social Anfernee niche will build it and it'll be cheap keep from bad than literally any other solution on the market easy but early on we weren't sure how we were Gonna a pitch this idea of multiple leashes and people kept asking for examples and we haven't really thought about it and so at one point I panicked and the is like okay so you've got bids one other verticals e thinking of going into another okay so like people who like coffee tattoos and cats and the polls now he's like could you elaborate on the cats and I came up with an amazing business on the spot of fancy camps goat-like shows performance stuff. They pay a lot of money to match that cap with another shoukat to breed to breed like there's a lot of money in that imagine if there was a tender for Capri specialists socialist cat breeding how much money you'd make our that and you could branch to any animal breeding which led us on a few months later should be looking into carols. We were talking. Please check the facts we we may have just being scammed by alone but we were talking with with one of the few licensed specialist Bull Breeders in Europe and they paid like quarter of a million pounds for the bowl to make friends with your cow yeah well and they're like this literally no real there's no system that this goes through. It's just kind of people know people and so if you just introduce very basic matchmaking service and blows the whole industry it disrupts that if you will and so yeah this selective animal suddenly look. We've discovered this whole new haven't you that business can go down and it's if you know if you know your if you know the strength of your business you can kind of throw it in any kind of direction and you'll know how oh good or bad it'll do because it's the same template it's matching people based on I. N.. B. It's just a matchmaking service like its discovery. I think we call it discovery now because we're doing more social stuff and it's an accent to call it matchmaking like how how do you find other versions of whatever the type of thing you are. That's what happened with the whole animal breeding thing it just didn't happen one cats what about bowls and cows they terrifying. I think we just ended up dropping off contact contact for example it up as A. There's a big monkey I if I'm GONNA friend WHO's a foul and he literally has to his job is like breeding sheep and cows one reason why this the idea also doesn't get left out of the room is the investors tend to be quite wealthy people and they will have Seattle's say so. They're all well-versed in this kind of stuff so other other pitch like suggestion. No your audience good ones. I haven't you back pocket. If you need you sense they're expensive dot talking about expensive animals sentencing would go down these cow breeding. Welcome to my my job so you received offers from five dragons in the ten. How did that feel imagine? It's pretty mind-blowing when it's actually happening yeah I was. I was not fully present in nerve if you yeah it was it was very bizarre. It was very strange feeling. I don't know if you have a gun to a major city where you've never been before but what you've seen it so much on T._v.. Like the first time I went to New York I was like the movies movies like the city but you gotTa. They're all going around. The same thing. Hang on this is happening now. This can't be happening. I can't really be here it was it was very strange. Yeah the phrase called Foam. Oh in startups. That's fair of missing recently in the last few months uh-huh missing sudden yeah so it was really interesting. As soon as the first offer came in you could sense a shift the essentially people were sort of breaking cover. You got the sense that everyone was suddenly then trying to get it and my assumption will be I'd get a few offers and then Selma back down because sometimes they backed down because other people get give us stronger offering a cop match that then they'll came in and then it looked Mike. I'm like Oh five in one deal amazing blend it wasn't it was still good fun. Five seems like it would be hard as manage after you leave the A._p._R.. Would be give you could hire hinton to manage dragons dragging time I guess even having office more five dozen BAFTA now one of the first few I think it's only like once the season <music> but it happens. I think there was the one or two my season the office roll five which is good to have like club like inviting reckon driving yeah and so spoken to a few beforehand and I like you meet people in Startup circles and I've given advice to people before they go on because they know they can reach out to me by don't yeah I don't think there's no one that I like hanging out with regular. That's like also friends friends with lots of Great Dragons Code School Dragons Guide track in the show notes when at that because actually link Lincoln into that so your relationship with Nick Jenkins lead you to me and eventually by the dating APP Double Dragon Stan Ryan yes so they go investment from Nick when they appeared on during his time so <unk> essentially and we got trying to them so nick put his in contact with them pretty much immediately and we just got chatting to them and we found a load of similarities in metrics so this is a time by we already have one big dating which is breslow and one of the strengths of 'em fourteen is that we now have metrics on twenty different dating apps and no one else on us has data set like that no one else would need today. I mean we also have Amadeus of where the best bids on earth like. Nothing inherently valuable about these data sets specific unique so when we would just Brisa and then we started talking with double they will potentially needing some help. I put the infrastructure and that sort of what we provide and so there's a lot of kind of parallels that have can we help them cut costs and in the end we just we figured out that these things for spiciest Bali them and then they become an unfolding brand and then when we've got the telling we figure out how we can integrate them an in the Shelton we just use the I mean you got nice P._R.. Boost when you buy another company and it goes down as they have they got an acquisition and it's like yes we have those business people got it all in kind of Nice and we got the insight to things like that Chen writes that that funnels all that kind of stuff which at the time was super valuable because we had one big APP and then we have two big APPS US and we're planning on building mobile APP so it's kind of a really nice way to jumpstart their knowledge gathering so you take us through happened in the weeks after filming took place and what actually happened the daily made with the dragons so after the deal so there was just a lot of anxiety and myself and a lot of offensive relief we would I mean busy as a company and there was definitely come down from the adrenaline rush of pairing and in the end we got a better offer from different investor so we were mentioning that we were getting ready to take investment than give any details about you know when you're lawyering up as phrases like you mentioned of doing this because we're getting ready to take a pretty significant investment and talking to base suggested like our could we invest and we suggested tested evaluation of I think one point five million and they would be investing give or take a hundred grand and they agreed and so we then had to office we can either give up like five percent of business for one hundred grand or twenty twenty percent of our business for eight grand and we put this offer to next nick was based guy main from point and I think nick was was fairly open about because he's done other tech investments and he knows that like this is actually a reasonable investment Zeman looks like but he mentioned the like pizza is is very much if it's not the Dale in the Dan is not really haven't which is completely reasonable <hes> it was also sold of pointed out that if you agree twenty percent on TV TV and then it comes out in the press that you actually signed for like five four five percent is j just kind of makes the whole thing into a bit of a fast and you'll end up with people gung on the show agreeing to fifty percent and and then renegotiating in the weeks after that doesn't really doesn't really fit so they like. We're essentially priced them out around <hes> and then use that as a p._R.. Opportunity so if you google folly to good P._R.. Opportunity if you Google and fourteen deal will be a big tech crunch headline of like how the m fourteen deal collapsed now I am the idiot who actually suggested that as the headline because I was trying to about this dramatic headline but now if you read the article it's so like really nice and Peter Jones some lovely things and it's already reasonable but most people are now like all the deal collapsed. Well shouldn't have been a dramatic by causing tech crunch so like and if it makes people like read up than it's it's like there's no no like shameful secrets in their stuff we did. It just didn't work was the other investor. How do you say neo was here? Where you on dragons down in your other offer moment was from teacher? I don't think so so so it was filmed in twenty sixteen in ad in two thousand seventeen says like nine months between it was in that nine months where we closed this second round so I don't remember we actually told him that it was like the other would be dragging them because I think as soon as they gave us the agreed to the valuation the dragons kind of exit stage left because it just wasn't the deal that was going to work with them so in the den Teuku Solomon described you very credible deborah meat and said said that she liked the passion in your pitch and pizza giants did that you are the most appealing individual he seen in the den for a long time. How important do you think it is to show personality and passion in a pitch and have you any tips of how people can achieve and such a short time slot so I think it depends pitching so when you're pitching and at least business you are essentially pitching yourself and your ability and the company is going to reflect your personality? It's kind of like how like an author's I I work is always autobiography whether they intended to be not because you right from what you know I build a business how I like how I know so I think there's gotta be trust that there's going to be I think credibility it is is the key one. If I didn't seem credible I wouldn't get investment even if my business was credible and I think when you're pitching it's just about kind of having fun and it's one of those weird things that the more effort you put into showing your personality banality the more just comes across as staged all right before tive and that kind of stuff and the more you just kind of let yourself go and worry a little bit less the better uh but of course worrying walk keeps you from lying or making things up all forgetting things so you need to. I think it does a confidence from just knowing what you're talking about. I don't mean memorizing. I mean living and breathing like you can show me a dashboard of importing metrics. Look like and I can tell you if there's an issue with one of the service because like one of the graphs will be slightly dipping below where I would expect it to be like when you're living and breathing something then you can talk about it with passion and you can let your personality shine through using that announced that the the moment that kind of got Deborah was the end way you almost finished and you just kind of said just really exciting and that uh-huh like just you. I'm guessing you didn't plan no that was me forgetting of my pitch say that it's the most polished of other being genuine dislike flustered when it came across well then I think the less line was something about how I'm really passionate. I I still have forgot. I'm very excited about this. Wish they love that seem to get thinking. I want to work with this guy. So I guess like those human moments be human. Don't be afraid to be here like if you're feeling nervous at the start of a pitch say I'm really nervous and everyone will be like is fine and the whole unlike the pressure just kind of eases off a little bit so just be be human but like then no investing because you could have pitching if you're pinching you come across as human and smart and that's what they're investing and you can you don't you can put a lot of effort into being really slick and learning all the bold moves and that kind of stuff or you can put effort into being a human being and I would probably choose that one though I know a lot of people who get very successful by just learning how to pitch released like it's a lot of sales e type stuff. I guess you've always got the fact that you can say Piacenza Appealing Guy Business Colin Yeah you'll find your opinion is wrong Jones to correct you. I think as well as I should showing that you are actually enthusiastic about it because if I got tens of thousands of pounds to invest in someone I wouldn't want to invest it in someone who didn't really ECZEMA. They WanNA invest someone who really was passionate that making it work because at the end of the day is a risk is an interesting so you want to make sure that you'll risk is going to pay off and angel investors especially. They're investing for fun they don't need to they could put that their investment in a pension them two percent a year or something but that choosing to have a little bit of fun. Take some risk and use a small pov like have much they've got to do that.