JP Morgan Coin 101
Yoyo welcome to quarter win one the consumer's guide to cryptocurrency. This is Matthew Aaron and the CEO of J P Morgan is notorious for bashing blockchain and bitcoin. He was the king of fud in the bull of twenty seventeen in twenty eighteen nobody said more bad things and probably influenced the market more than Jamie diamond. And then J P Morgan comes out with cryptocurrency J P Morgan coin on the blockchain took us all by surprise. But what is it is it the next bitcoin? Is it just the next ripple? Is it me there? Well here today, we're going to go through one a one on GP Morgan coin and figure out what it is what it isn't. And what it's going to be used for and what it could possibly be used for in the future. But before that, please wherever you're listening to this podcast. Make sure you're subscribed. Leave a rating Anna comment, also go over itunes and leaves a rating and comment there. They helps us stay visible. I tunes is wonderful for keeping people visible as long as there's engagement. So help us out. Get engaged and leave us rating, Anna comment on I tunes. Also, if you like this episode, please share it on your social media with your friends, your family and help spread the show. Crypto one on one also can use your support. So if you would like to donate the crypto one on one good or a patient page, you can find our patriots page on crypto one to one podcast dot com. Oath at the support button. Click patriot and donate to the show and help support these podcasts and don't forget this isn't that financial advice. Trading advice person vice or legal advice and thank you to Lincoln for sponsoring this episode. Without further ado, was known about J P Morgan coin, and I wanna say thank you to Helen for editing. This episode was you have to the show. Ben Justo head of growth for Kadena. Welcome to cripple one-to-one, sir. Matthew, thanks. We took tape, sir. Before we get into this conversation today about J P Morgan's coin the rise of institutional cryptocurrency could you please briefly introduce yourself show us. Oh, I head up Greif at today now, which is blockchain company that was founded by the founders GB Morgan's Juna blockchain. We'll talk about later. So we all right organization that's has been going since about twenty sixteen and in my role. I am predominantly focused on a growing up Friday of enterprise clients today. My history that I've been working at mainly consultancies. Helping them understand mcclain's on the stand and how to tackle rather amorphous technologies and concepts such as much technology and blockchain they come predicts elected in the past have included wool street crossing of equity derivatives using the blockchain a large syndicated lending blockchain project, which should be getting. Live this year, which address two trillion dollars of national lending in the marketplace as well as the most strategic projects helping on the planning business case, and then also the execution of and that's what led me to join Kadena where I'm really going to helping on building enterprise poll Friday by taking the business strategy in technology and put them together. Thank you, sir. You said that the genome blockchain was developed by JP Morgan, why would a Bank or J P Morgan develop a blockchain. So if you think about all of these major banks, they do spend a certain percentage of the panel on our indie because they need to look for ways to be more efficient because the context of capital markets is there is an increasing move to criticize Asian within investment banking particular that means that the cost of becoming on the pressure, and in particular, not just cost but the ability to use balance-sheets in a way, which is far more efficient than before. We'll take with a lot of these new rules around basil three Frank cetera. Banks con use that balance sheet in the way, they used to before that full the ability to improve aspects such a settlement means that they can use it balance-sheets better ways, and that full effectively lend the money they have on that books may be tied up through long settlement processes in the fall more efficient way. So Jimmy will suddenly looking at this Roman efficiency play by from operational efficiency blow balance-sheet play as well. And you know, they are looking to continue to be leaders in financial technology, and they have a real history of breaking the mold on on on new products Newton allergies. You mentioned the banks are able to use their balance sheet as before what does that mean? So radio stem back to the financial crisis, the gloss steagle act, for example, and really banks crowds. The financial crisis. Had a an ability to be into southern positions, which may have a higher risk profile. So what I mean by that is they able to hold a little quality assets on take more risks with the money of retail customers, for example through deposits and increasingly as new the full out from the mortgage crisis. The financial crisis leads to review of some of the risk crosses of these large banks and a number of requirements were put on these institutions which limiting factor in will could do with that money. So they had to prove for example, they had sufficient reserves in the case of a second crisis narrow a number of simulations it performed for these these events to determine what stress event would look like, you know, if institutions and individuals pulled them money, do they have enough reserves that are liquid that they can actually use to actually resolve some of these challenges. And that means that you can't be exposed was risky asset liquid positions as he can the post, which means that you have to have a fall better understanding way, your money is a point in time and William money is being tied up in a settlement process. And if you look at for example, syndicated lending where you want it can be tying up full an average of nine days, that's an awful lot of money sitting on the sidelines that Kant be used and also commissary put towards your your the Quincy ratio targets that are being mandated increasingly today that seems like a practice. I wish that some of these cryptic stages head that would be good wouldn't it would it would the history JP Morgan bitcoin slash blockchain is controversial Jimmy diamond has been quoted many times calling bitcoin a scam. It seems as though the whole time bitcoin was starting to jump in ramp up in two thousand seventeen to about twenty thousand maybe not JP Morgan, but Jamie diamond was verbally attacking insulting the criminal space. Why would he do that? If we're gonna was. -veloping on the black chain behind the scenes that is a very good question is certainly makes for a very good headline. But I think this is very much something that's being misconstrued. Because the actual reality is little move Monday than than the story of you know, JP Morgan one side in crypto Annika Stanley other may may provide any kind of put it into context, you have to think about when these statements may J of Jimmy demo these these statements really at the height of crypto mania, you know, when bitcoin was hit saying, I think it was affecting fourteen thousand dollars and had a very large willia- speculative run-up in. If you think about who Jamie Dimon is even his running an organization with in significant amounts of assets on the management. He has really a not just a fiduciary requirements, but also, you know, in terms of running business, he has a responsibility about how he communicates around things. So when you think about it if. You're ask the question of a man that is running a Bank with two point seven three trillion dollars on the management, and he was asked him about a highly speculative asset class that has seen retail investors being brought into the market when one of your largest parts of your business is a high net worth individual organization of private Bank in a wet decisions recommendations being made by bankers daily basis. It's probably the rights prudent in cautionary approach for Jamie. So actually can have reflect about how bitcoin is certainly an asset cloth has some some real developmental problems because it was immaturity. And then at the time, it was purely speculative for many policies in actually was born out to be true in so far is you know, one could argue that were in the reasons that there was a run up on. This was speculation ahead of the launch of the futures on the CBO a so I mean, I think that's the more the reality. I there's a lot of narrative about how you know one. Jamie Dimon has ramped up or suddenly he's been he's he's set barrack speculations on bitcoin. But the same time to be Morgan has been seen to have another bitcoin as well. So the accusation is effectively he's been speaking out of his two sides of his mouth for some kind of prophets related game. To subscribe to that theory. You have to subscribe to the belief that Jamie would be really putting the whole reputation of P Morgan at risk in order to make a quick buck from from profiting in bitcoin, and I think that's November's ever done that. It just it being strange asset costs for him to pick given this as a rounding error on on J P, Morgan PNL mole likely what you have to think about is actually because of a little bit banking rose organizations onto loud to do proprietary trading. The Muth allowed to effectively make trades casino. So it's more likely that a large organization like P Morgan is managing on Hof bits clients, some allocation of bitcoin, probably under a private banking relationship. And it just so happens that there was a cell that was performed on the instruction over climb within the marketplace. I think that's probably a little bit more believable than JP Morgan is out to somehow hijack bitcoin because it's worried about how that's gonna make inroad into its business. You know, I think that's gonna more than a believable story that Jamie has remarked about. Setton situation around bitcoin has been wanting off people dabbling, and then also have to have a position through a client relationship is. Well, I want to touch a little bit of what you said that it's a strange asset class to pick. I don't think it's a strange asset class at all. Because of how it seen by the SEC at the time. It wasn't recognized by the SEC the security. It was still up for debate. And if it was apples bananas or bitcoin. Those all don't follow him as he sees oversight regulations. What does it matter? Then if Jimmy diamond said apples, we're going to the moon or bananas. We're going to get wrecked or bitcoin. So my question is to you. Then if it's not fun under- SEC's oversight, and it's not under the responsibilities of a Bank to act prudently. And Jamie's diamonds opinions and comments did infact move the price of bitcoin, then JP Morgan or Jamie Dimon was found to have either bitcoin personally or invested for their clients. That sounds like price manipulation to me. Is it not? I dunno saying that I wasn't. I think if if you're gonna pull off the scam of a lifetime that you will go up publicly and trying to hijack something that is. So clearly being talked about in guiding attention. I think that'd be quite a foolish move of someone to do with say much to risk in a I think, you know, banks a finding other ruses less public than that on this baby time will tell I mean, it's you could also argue that the run up over the bitcoin price correspondents to the low to futures on the CBO e which is actually went into money could actually shoot bitcoin. So that's not to say that financial institutions are not somehow profiting from main street through using you know, the advantageous positions. They have. I just don't necessarily subscribe to the belief that in J people are going to be running this kind of roller case coaster, really for the purposes of profiting benefiting of this asset class and using Jimmy demon as the mouthpiece to do that. I think that's that's a little bit of a stretch for me just based on mine mine's, dining array, just my two sons Joe, and I want to move from this but to play it off as a rounding error of billions and billions of dollars as Mark cap at the time was reading four hundred billion dollars. It is not a rounding error or a little bit of money. I think the call it a little bit of money just because it's bitcoin not a mainstream currency or store. Value is to downplay how much money was really invested in really involve. In this. But let's move into the contradictory nature of dipping Morgan for a moment. Show. Bitcoin verse blockchain I will entertain that bitcoin does not mean blockchain, and that when they made their stable coin on the black team that does not mean a volatile or speculative asset such as bitcoin, and they want to do something more stable was her comments on that. First of all, I wanna say that this is a great development for the industry and Michigan be absolutely applauded. Look Chaim in any setting is difficult in terms of implementation. And even so within a an innovation Greek within a Bank innovation group, so notoriously stalled the funding attention. So that JP Morgan was able to innovate get something out there and be able to really link it into the overall strategy in operating is no small feat whatsoever. I think it's good for the industry has been a lot of attention that's being attracted based on this announcement. You know, I was recently in a conversation with the head of blockchain of one of the the lodge international. Thanks. You said that that fund has been running off the hook ever since his announcement from senior executives wanting to understand exactly what's going on here. So that's that's that's a sensitive. Good because that means that senior exact saw gonna pay attention and banks and that also helped move on the debates now intends. What J P Morgan is trying to do here. They are trying to do a number of things. And it's something that's reflected not just purely JP Morgan all organizations, and that is how you improve settlements which is a large problem in the market when you look at supplement what we're really talking about is the exchange of a financial instrument for money and the getting the money to the right people in a way, we managing the risk. And that's the a very centralized approach because he needed someone to take the risk of Mon delivering, and that's why we have central settlement policies today. That's why we have. Lodge institutions like JP Morgan. And while you have the DTCC that processes over quadrille dollars of instruments every year. So really what can shaping Morgan is trying to do is solve a number of those challenges around settlement. Because that's in many cases is slow because of all Cain systems and processes, and they're really looking at a number of areas. They're looking at it from the perspective of institutional investors, where they want to have institutional payments made more quickly for example, securities transactions. They're also the king to help organizations with very large treasury services is while and you can imagine that subsidiaries across the world on any to mention that money is being up to minds on the balance sheet funny. They went to work with international payments as well. Whether logical rations have large payments that have moved around the world and all of these processes suddenly aspects of financial services tend to be occasions. Before and slow. So what J P Morgan is looking at is to use this technology to speed up aspects of settlements in. This isn't something that's new for example, the Juno blockchain that was one of us Blockchain's that suggesting Morgan attempted was actually used in a settlement process to move money around between different areas of JP Morgan itself. So we'll be talking about hair is a next iteration of this the settlement in the end of the day is really about updating accounts is about updating are you what the balance held with you. And with me. Now, the challenge with this is that when you're in the realm of digital cash you need to think about who is going to be using that digital cash. A what that really represents? You know, digital cash is fine intended actually need to get your hands on the real money itself. And that's gonna read the lost mile of settlement. Now, the reason that's important is it's one thing to have an account balance digitally updated. It's another thing. To actually have that money in your account. And this is something the number of organizations have been struggling with for a while on the number of initiatives already in motion. For example, utility settlement coin that trying to solve a about eighty to one hundred million dollar problem with settlement. And that's what the moving of at the end of the day money that is H which other in terms of institutions into real money. So that part of the challenges you get with settlement today is that usually the settlement occurs in the day, which means that you did not necessarily know how you owe accounta- policy until rights at the end of the day when you find a cash out, what's mole with very complicated sophisticated investment banks, you may actually be loan to secular clients in one asset class short another asset class, then that could be completely different all over the world, but it could be the same counterparty. So if you think about it from a balance sheet efficiency perspective, you might beholding a hundred million dollars in reserves. Because JP Morgan may be willing to settle with golden because it knows that it does Goldman amount of money. However that just might be a purely product driven, Jill driven view, it might be possible to Goldman actually does a hundred million the different asset class that's being settled in a different country to imagine the efficiency play here. JP Morgan actually knew any point in time. Exactly what the net balance was that means they wouldn't be holding collateral. Reserve to be able to then settle some of those debts that actually beg in out. Anyway. So that's gonna really the opportunity the ability to get a real time view across products on a cross geography against a counterparties with that you can do some significant optimisation as to how you call your money, effectively the treasury management, and because you holding this in a digital way, you can settle not necessarily at the end of the day or under the tea plus tweak cycle. You can do that intraday. Which means that you can any point in time. Not exactly how much you need to settle and then full manage your your balance sheets. So that's gonna bring the opportunity if you're a Bank from about she perspective, then he can multiply some these benefits across the clients JP Morgan has as well because they can settle will quickly for payments. And now a word from our sponsor Lincoln when I find it's time to make a higher for my small business naturally. I want to find the best person for the job odds, are that person is on Lincoln Lincoln jobs makes it easier for me to get a quality Matt candidate who makes the most sense for the role that I'm hiring for Lynton jobs uses knowledge of both hard skills and soft skills to match the people that fit my role. Best people come to Lincoln every day to learn an advance their careers so linked and understands what they're interested in and looking for which means when I use Lincoln jobs to hire someone my matches are based on so much more. Ben just a resume mine. Linden jobs matches are based on skills and background but also interests activity. Impassioned they must have a passion for making the world, a better place and for blockchain technology customers rate linked jobs, number one in delivering quality hires. That's why we use Lincoln jobs posted job today at Lincoln dot com slash crypto. And. Fifty dollars off your first job post. That's Lincoln dot com slash crypto Lincoln dot com slash C, R Y PTO and now back to the show. I think a lot of people in the crypto spaces skeptical of J P Morgan. However, when I was in Denver, a lot of people were happy that JP Morgan came into the blockchain space in they felt that having a big institution such as J P Morgan getting into spaces validation to what they have been working on for so long. But I want to go into something else. You said here shelf, you said real time view, and you said that a lot of transactions are settled with swift at the end the day. Let's go into for minute. A one on one on a couple of systems that are currently used in the mainstream transaction such as swift and are three and also talk about what J P Morgan's blockchain is designed to do. I want to know about J P Morgan blockchain and TPS of their blocking. I want to know about this because button is notoriously slow how can there black chain manage in have real time data as you said, if blockchain technology is inherently slow tech. Now, there's there's a really great questions. So let's take a look at the landscape of. Organizations today both in times of existing technology. That's being present within the infrastructure of today as well as some of the new players looking at blockchain so on the one hand you have off three which is a consortium of one hundred banks that have developed a distributed ledger, which is driven of a blockchain technology, and that was developed in collaboration with financial institutions to to build a rail that would allow these financial institutions to perform blockchain transactions. But in a way that transaction rail was built in collaboration with over needs of the institutions themselves. Another notable posse is swift not stunts with society of worldwide interbank financial telecommunication is founded fully six years ago. An has about eleven thousand financial institutions across two hundred countries and territories today, and they send about fifty million messages per day. This is really the backbone of help. Comments made unsettled across the world today. So all three recently linked up with a swift to to provide a settlement rail which allows actual transaction. Messages to be sent to settle in counts. Let's go really goes to the heart of the the settlement discussion hair, which is is one thing to message between posses the facts that each posse whose each other some full of money is another thing to actually fettle bats in real money within the council, guys Asians themselves. So you'll see a number of announcements whether it's all three whether it's J P Morgan of organizations licking plug in some of the plumbing to physically allow the accounts which have been held by Sydney stations to be updated with actual Fiat currency. And that's the big trend is how you translate the. Digital world of digital cash into the physical one moving into second part of that question. We were talking about the settlements. And we were also talking about keeping up to date panels and checking your balance in real time during the day and since blockchain is slow tag. How can it actually do that in? Also, you had a blog with the title JP Morgan coin, a feat of engineering or marketing. So if we could can we talk about why or how it would be engineering or marketing end does that have to do with anything with transaction speeds or the inherent qualities of this blockchain, Greg rice gin? So as we think about swift, for example, as we said, this is known as I should not processes fifteen million messages day now some of the fosters Blockchain's, which contain a claims to have the faucets. One can process about eight thousand transactions a second. So you you're still going to struggle around. You know, they could demand that swift has at the moment. And I think it was worth bearing in mind is that both chains have a very specific part to play in the ecosystem today is not necessarily full fully high-volume transactions. But it certainly plays a role in demonstrating to a range of participants exactly the balances any point in time, the consolidated balances across many organizations, so while we may not be able to get a pu- second view of balances. You can at least batch off a lotta this into a snapshot at a given point in time. There's a snapshot is former real time than end of the day. So there's always a balance with blockchain of using it for what best at which is a ledger of all transactions with full history. Full full divinity across all parties will parties can see. So with it. Is it engineering or marketing because like you just said with some of the fastest Blockchain's? They still can't keep up with swift. And like you said earlier SWIFT's use case is different than J P Morgan's intended use case and still it needs to be closed at the day with faster throughput. So is this just marketing or do they really have a solution for institutional users? So let's talk a little bit about. Well, the J P Morgan coin is that it's two paces. The first one is settlement the second one is a stable coin. And I think on the first point there is absent value and utility in the coin insofar as we know that settlement is a very important piece of the jigsaw to resolve and quorums technology as it's been set out. He will do that. The second point which is around the stable coin. You know, I think can be misconstrued. Exactly what the stable coin is if thinks about stable coin from the traditional sense, I'm show. Some of your colleagues Eastender of being customers in stable coin is crooked currency at anyone can vile, Sal, and it will maintain its value. So for every one dollar of USD stable coin, I can redeem not for one dollar certain so far as any of JP Mogens clients when deposited money received cleans ton are able to go back to J P Morgan and redeem a coin for a dollar. That's not really clear that they sense of how stable coins have been talked about in the wider area of the of the market and the way that I like to to explain this a little bit like you go into a casino. We change your dollars for chips. And then you can you can use those chips interchangeably on any. Of the tables, blackjack, roulette, etc. The stable coin is the piece says whatever you haven't chips at the end of the day. You could tell his back into real dollars the same amount as you have chips. And as we've seen in crypto the moment. Crypto is notoriously volatile which means that it's unlikely that will happen unless you have a stable coin and volatility is just not appropriate full institutional clients because they need to have some custom built into hedge that market risk around on the exchange risk. So that was the intention of stable coins is to provide that stability now, what J P Morgan is effectively done hair as they have indeed provided a mechanism where you can turn your real money into digital cash. A coin if you will and then peg that. So there's always that leaned that if you get to JP Morgan, you can always redeem that, but the problem is because this is a enterprise technology. It's permission technology. You can only do this with J P Morgan and only within the full of J P Morgan if your client. So you have to have an account with J P Morgan you have to have a quorum blockchain compatibility, and then you have to have that business relationship with J P Morgan as well and deposit at money in the first place to get coins. Instead. So I think that's going to some the limitations that you have now. Whereas I think, you know, the purest around stable coins with say that the point is the state will coin is that this is generally accepted by all parties. Redeemable what will pot is any point in time. So effectively really what we're talking about hair is an API or an API is a digital service that you can cool programmatic Lii, and it will perform a business transaction as part of cooling it. So really gonna vote. We're talking about here is API cool, not necessarily a currency in the true sense of the world, and I didn't that necessarily diminish his what JV Mogens done a tool. You gotta start somewhere a wine stop by affecting change with your clients with your PIN, L, and your technology. But in. Terms of a stable coin. I think it's not entirely, correct. To talk about it in the same guys. We would do with other stable coins such as the work that has done and Jiminez done around that stable coins. What are the threats the ripple extra p because isn't this? What ripple coin was supposed to be doing? It was interesting to see from a market perspective. Whether this coin would affect the price of exile pay which is an affiliation of ripple token that season the network and surprisingly there wasn't much from debate mock market, this note, significant change in price, and I think that's because you know, the they're preaching problems from two different ends. If what ripple is trying to do is to create a network that any organization conjoined and affectively transact by providing a an exchange profile between two currencies and the ability to route to it. Which if Morgan is really doing is to say, if you Bank with us, and you have account with us at business relationship, you're able to deposit money with us, and we will represented as a digital token that you can use with us, and then increasingly within network of other organizations of Bank with us. So there's a two different sides of the coin if you will the trying to get to that simmer can place, but the JP Morgan is very much taking from perspective of bay all the product in which is that banking relationships and the accounts, whereas replid saying the product is the network anyone can join that's agnostic to you know, one Bank in particular. Now is a big question as to how this will play out over time. Because there the swift is being around for longtime survived many different challenges in particular recent hacks, but because have to so embedded engrained in the. Oh system, and it does work will be at being slow and clunky. I think it's be very difficult to pull them out because there's a lodge risk in hoping from incompetent -nology. There are some recourse challenges around technology such as replicas. Well, you know, I would say that you money could be lost in the mail. But there are certainly some some some questions about what happens in on the sentence second stances as as transaction flows through. So I think you know, we're still very early on in the whole development of the ecosystem, which is why I think you've seen a negative reaction from from Whipple. At the moment. Okay. So, but why now because we are each headed already JP Morgan was not friendly to blockchain in two thousand seventeen two thousand eighteen so why release the technol- into dozen nineteen in that twenty twenty or twenty twenty one not a good question. You know, there's very much hot of that. Right. Matt. It just say happens that as the technology has matured the question now is less about the base time all g the pipes. If you will. It's now about taking what's being built nearly these blockchain platforms getting adoption, and then connecting it into the existing infrastructure. So I think that's why it's just the right time because that base layer is now which level of maturity, adoption, just my two cents. Again. I am always under the belief that bitcoin coin ethereal stable coins, such as die are not going to be the driving force to cryptocurrency integration. That's gonna be institutions like maybe P Morgan or Facebook. That's going to lead the charge by putting cripple currency or some sort of way to transact monetary value or value across their ecosystems by putting some sort of coin on black teens or work within their ecosystems allowing for faster message opposite and then bitcoin ethereal like when die will hop on board, and you'll be able to atomic swap between the institutional coins and these other crypto currencies. Do you think J P Morgan coin will have BTC or L C or extra integration? And do you think that JP coin ever go public for consumer use as an interesting question? I mean, this this there's always been a little bit of a standoff between this commissioned blockchain. Well, this this will garden if you will and the public network United clearly you have bitcoin maximum he believe that in a part of mission network has no more than a database. I'm believe that really the the troop off of digital currencies can only be in public. With you see the nominee and full access to everybody. I think in the reality of what was saying. I agree with you. Matthew is is it starts off with institutions saying we're gonna make it easier for our clients to do business with us because in the end it has to start with a very specific business case. Now, we're gonna save money or reducing sentiment time, we're going to consolidate all your positions. So you have trade, compression, and but about she management not begun to optimize your treasury management capabilities. Things of that nature. We is gonna come fuss. Because that's where the money is. That's where the pain is with the institutional investors of Mogo now from that that want to expand that wants to have some kind of interoperability with other organizations within the ecosystem most likely adjacent to J Mogens current interests. So think oh seek will buy side more exchange providers, then eventually. That is going to have to reach out in an incorporate additional aspects now as to kind of when it will go fully public in. I think is anyone's guess probably what you'll see is as it could be more of a secondary Malkin aspect where you're gonna find that the organizations that are providing a path of J P M coin again, if they're in for example, rather than JP Morgan saying, you know, we're now going to provide, you know, this this this past, you know, an supported trading so nothing it'll always gonna be on the on the adjacency of J P Morgan's existing business whether really focusing on making it easier to do business between the clients themselves. Do you think there ever be smart contract integration with J P? Morgan coin. I wouldn't rule it out. I mean, if you look at that frequently off questions as a question as Feddie similar, which is is is mentioned on this topic and their responses, effectively, you know, this is something that could be considered later. So I think it's not outside the realms of possibility it, I think if you look at where the direction of blockchain is going, it is clearly getting into this hybrid model on what I mean by that is that there is a public element and a private backoffice elements of emission elements, and that really the tree utility blockchain is the ability to marry the two components together. So I think it's it's an inevitability that is hybrid technology platform is what will get to not gonna wind contain has both a private technology in chimney to to launch public. China's well is that we do believe that you do need to have that crossover because there's a lot of value that you get from providing the full utility to everyone in the world, but then also protections the institutional organizations require from permission chain as well signals question. The day's gonna be more of a general question before asked that I want to say thank you for giving us a one on one on G P M coin JP coin. JP Morgan coin whatever is going to be called. And I feel that JP Morgan coming into the space right on a building on black is what we needed at this moment. We needed a confidence boost we needed the builders to see that what they're doing isn't always wasn't always in vain. And I didn't the space needed this during the bear market has this is the push to that's gonna keep us moving forward to say. Hey, what we're doing is important because look if JP Morgan is going to build on it. We have it right here. We are doing important work. But my question is what do you think of the crypto space at the moment? Are you bullish Sunday? I think a lot of the folks in in space looking at winds from the mex- recent run up, and then the rundown of prices and valuations, but I think overall we're actually in a better place in of another people would necessarily can give credit full in a clearly we're seeing a move towards the classification of toy. John's against rid of a lot of gray that we've seen before in terms of things like you. Tennessee titans. You know, we're saying imagine. So this security asset class of a beginning to see a major players starting to really end to this in a deliberate considered way and the SEC providing fall, clear guidance around the treatment of Sutton asset classes in within the digital space. Now Clinton ran a cash constrained environment as well. So I loaded the projects the may have funding before certainly will struggle in terms of end next round was gonna why looking at Oganization have enterprise use cases because that's the really difficult parts of this whole piece says how do you make a statement this clear to enterprise, which is around minimizing risk. Optimizing about sheets making aegypti business with them and improving. The ability to to settle and I think he can count in your hands the amount of blockchain companies that are solving this with real world use cases today. So that that's how I'd I'd categorize days really was seeing a movement towards quality stratification. So I'm a bull because I believe we have many of those components ready in place that thank you very much for that. Don't wanna want his position to be one of the first stops for people on their journey into the crypto space hints named crypto one to one. If somebody was listening to this episode in this was their first episode. There are listening to on their journey into space. What would you want them to know, sir? So certainly the way that I became educated in space was to voraciously read everything I could in this space a little times it stems from real idle curiosity reading from one article that takes to another takes to another. So in this can be from following a on on Twitter, you know, encourage the private enterprise blockchain side of things as well as on, medium polices. Well, and also attending may tops the information is certainly out there and there's a little discourse as well. So as part of this, you're gonna form an opinion, bitcoin maximalist, you're gonna be at missions blockchain maximalist another. It's going depend on where you know, you started life in in your career. You know, we're on the technology side in mill. So I think courage just ready to to use the resources that exist in the moment. Whether physical the jewel and make you curiosity take you down on and fully weather information is tonight benches will head growth at Kadena. Thank you very much for coming on crypto one one, sir. Thank you very much. The reach of it. Thank you very much for listening to this episode with Ben I want to say, thank you very much for coming on. And giving us a one JP Morgan coin in our next episode of crypto wanna win. I want to ask the question. Very simple question. Why should we continue to trust smaller exchanges or startup exchanges? When it seems. As though every smaller exchange loses funds eventually through the hacks poor upset internal disruptions for death. So I sat down with the founders of two smaller exchanges. Mike crypto wallet out of all strata and Agora trade a non-custodial decentralized exchange, and I asked them basic questions one how you work, and how do you plan to create confidence? So people use your platform, though, the two very interesting conversations, and I can't wait to share those with you. So look forward to the next episode of crypto at one end before we go like always checkout apogee crypto, that's a P O G E crypto dot com. The best place for your real time. Prices. That's the place. I use the check my bags your bitcoin. Light coin does coin ripple or. Whatever else you're holding. It's a place to check your praises in so much more. And thank you again for listening, and we'll see you in future episodes of crypto one who one.