From The Archive - Fern Riddell's Death In Ten Minutes
They is little atoms radio. Show about ideas and coacher with me. New Danny sweet dumped activist Austin and suffer. Jets Kitschy Maria in book in ten minutes doctor. Fernando Dr Fan. Redel is a historian specializing in sex suffrage and coach in the Victorian and Edwardian errors. She appears regularly on TV and radio and writes for The Guardian Huffington Post Telegraph and The Times Higher Education among others. And he's also a columnist for BBC magazine. Fern is also the author of death in ten minutes. Kitty Marian activists arsonist sopher jet which we're going to be talking about today Fan. Welcome to little. Thank you very much. This is the story of Kitty Marion. As a says on the cover and but for contacts you start looking at Mary Wollstonecraft. Unlike how some days were perhaps a bit radical for the feminists that came later in this era in the early twentieth century. So tell us why you wanted to start with. It's not so much. Just her ideas. It's also her life. You know we have so we struggle so much with women who do not fit a certain category were just supposed to be well married virtuous and thinking things and Mary. Wollstonecraft wasn't like that a tool. Shijo number of children out of wedlock and I was fascinated as to why this woman who was so influential in her time and so powerful in her time wasn't used by the Victorian period where I focused as I kind of a stepping stone to start off a really powerful feminist revolution. Because she wasn't an I was kind of investigating three and I realized that it's it's down to her life. It's to the fact that she did have lovers. And she did have children out of wedlock that Victorian feminists or at least the kind of dominant Victorian at that time really struggled with. And it's a very personal reaction. I think to kind of the world where in today I I tend to use my history to or at least my research to try and understand better why we have the world we have now why we have so many problems with sex why we have so many problems with women and going back over. The last hundred and fifty years is really what gives me an answer to that 'cause remarry and when did you first come across her? So I was working in the archives at the Museum of London I was doing research for my PhD. And I was researching Victoria kind of nineteenth century women in the music holes and kind of musical in general. Because that's what I was. Fascinated in my family were trick cyclists and the nineteen eighteen ninety s until the nineteen thirties. And so I grew up with a lot of stories about that and a little photographs. And I found that time really fascinating. And I'd always been told and I think a lot of people have the misconception. That music hall is own kind of knees up mother Brown and very stereotypically male and not a good place for women and my family were a troupe of predominantly female trick cyclists so. I already had this kind of background. Knowledge that the world wasn't quite what history had told us it was and I was fascinated by that and I was sitting in the Museum of London. Archive and the amazing curators. There who's wonderful woman? Go Beverly Kirk said Fern. I think your you're GonNa really likes something. I've got this unpublished autobiography of musical artist. That I think you're gonNA like but just see no she was also suffragette and I kind of massively roll my eyes at that point because I didn't want in that very millennial kind of Oh I know what my rights are. It doesn't matter to me anymore. I didn't want to fool into the trap of studying suffrage because that feels like if you're a female historian the first thing people assume about you as you're going to be doing gender studies or you're going to be doing suffrage. It's like the biggest kind of assumption female historians face and I find that very frustrating because we have incredible political and military historians. Who HAVE FEMALE. And they never seem to get the airtime will the exposure that male historians do so. I. I was very kind of anti being painted into a box. But bear gave me this kind of typed manuscript pages and I remember sitting down and opening up and kind of starting to read and within five pages on your wasn't GonNa leave because this absolutely incredible voice just leapt off the page and told me things I never knew I had no comprehension of about women about sex and about the fight for the vote and I realized very quickly that if I didn't know a someone who is studying history no one knew like the public don't know and that's the purpose of history for me and the purpose of being a historian making sure everyone has access to the research we do from this was unpublished most affair which you use in the books so how much of that is due to tight bound volumes in the Museum of London and Kitty left copies to the Museum of London to the women's library and to the New York Public Library where which is where she to life which is in New York in America. And it's kind of a bow. It's kind of two volumes. That are about three to four inches. Thick of this typed manuscript. And I just used to sit with it and just read and read and read and read these incredible firsthand accounts of life in the music. Halls and life is a suffragette bomber and then life is a birth control actors in the stories and and people and an a memory that as historians you dream of finding you dream of finding voice like this from the post that is so complete and tells you everything about the world they are and not just how they feel but how the people around them feel and I knew in that moment from kind of the I read that I had to spend the next two years of my life finding away to get her into print because everyone should know and so she's presently all those moments of history that you just almost movements that you just mentioned also of course I guess we could say to begin with to is also something of a minor celebrity. Why has she been forgotten? I this is a question I kept coming back to. You and I was really struggling to understand as a young researcher and in the end I found two reasons one. The suffrage s themselves really in the nineteen twenties with the connection some suffrage as kind of the main ones to the connection to you. Saxon Birth Control that was seen as of actually an anti feminist thing as it had been throughout the nineteenth century. Which is another thing that. I uncovered in death in ten minutes that I was fascinated by and so that kind of tainted I think her memory secondly she was exposing the stories of the bombers is that in the Nineteen Thirties. The surviving suffragettes did not want exposed. And when she sent her autobiography to them to be conserved to be protected it got put away and hidden and historians. You came off to that. Can only really go on the archive that they given. And if something has been hidden way it's not surprising that it hasn't come to light because we're talking about history that is ninety years old you know. We've only had democracy in England since nineteen twenty eight as less than ninety years so it is hardly surprising that we are finding so many new things now and yet to some people. It is a total shock that this has been hidden on this husband forgotten. It's kind of my mission where this Birkin with a lot of their kind of public idea to change people's minds. Let's talk about her early life. Because there's a couple of incidents that happened to her before she's involved in the self-rule movement particularly the acute influence on. You know home how she thinks going forward. She actually comes from ears initially. Yeah I think this is one of the things like under love Kitty. She was a gem child immigrant. She came here when she was fifteen years. Old came here completely alone because her her uncle had realized that her father was being incredibly abusive. We believe sexually IDA believe sexually abusive. 'cause he doesn't talk about that at all but physically abusive incredibly physically and emotionally abusive. And I think her uncle removed from that situation at the moment where potentially that violence could have become far worse and get far more towards the woman she was becoming and e basically packs are onto a boat with no warning and her to an aunt. Who's living WHO's emigrated far earlier and is living with her husband in Just outside the east end in London and Katie arrives in England. Kind of at the age of fifteen this kind of beautiful redhead young girl who has no idea of what the country is that she's come to know ability to speak English and she's kind of she was sort of coming into Liverpool Street and hearing English being spoken and thinking my God I am never ever going to get a handle on this language because just noise but she's still kind of the next few years. She teaches herself. English through deadwood deck journals which are kind like penny dreadful American stories of the wild west and her nieces and nephews Kind of schoolbooks and just ping up snatches in the street. And she has a few kind of accidents where she's picked up say swearwords language and she sorta gaily greets a neighbor or her aunt with this with this kind of swearword thinking that is just an everyday term. Says she's go to learning. She's learning about language and she's leading England and by the age of nineteen. She knows more than anything. What she really wants to do is be on the stage and it causes a lot of problems with her aunt's family. This idea that to be an actress is disrespectful and women who want to do that Bad and wrong. But she's determined now over through this book there are residences things that are going on today and the content of the feminist movement today and so of course kitties. You want to get into the music. All she's just start now so she leads an agent says she has a meeting with this guy. What happens Says she goes. She's very naive. And she's nineteen years old and she goes for her first agent and she's really excited and it's an agency on York Street. Just fortunately road just down by Woodley station I. It goes very well. The meetings fantastic. It's the offices full of acts and bustle and noise and she comes out kind of thinking. My God my life is made. I end zone catch. Is that the contract isn't ready quiet. Then and she needs come back the next day at five pm and I can remember reading that in the archive and kind of my heart sinking. Because I am I was by that point in my mid twenty s and had had enough experience with the world to recognize a trap when you see one and my heart just sank and I turn the page and Kitty describes going back the next day discovering that the office is empty and yet her agent there with the contract and she signs it and he moves around the desk deposit to her and attacks her knocks her unconscious and after that she staggers out and she started onto the bridge onto orderly bridge and she looks down at the water and she has this moment where she decides am. I GONNA throw myself in or am I going to pick myself up and make the life I want and I think for many women. It's a very recognizable moment. That first time someone take something from you that they have no right to and it was incredibly powerful to me and she kind of faces that for the next twenty years because it's twenty years until the suffragette show up. She's in her forties and every time she goes for work. If it's with an agent or manager this keeps happening and it's happening to other actresses that she knows she's trying desperately to get the government to listen and change. Its mind and protect women in industry and they won't and it's incredibly frustrating to her. You know you said that. There's an awful resonances in the book. I didn't write that way. That's just how it happened in a this is our history. It has taken us one hundred years and the reason why I think it's such a powerful story and so many people seem to connect to it is because what happens to kitty whether it's the awful attacks or her resilience and her to change the world around her so many people recognize is still the society we have today one of the sound to the the music whole world and the theatrical world. Obviously what could he was experiencing with? What most women would have been experiencing the same time there? All of these amazing women characters in that world sort of eking out some sort of independence might be too strong. A word absolutely hits the right word. Okay so Ikeda's some sort of independence for themselves. I think one of the things I really wanted to shake because I love the music calls and I think we've got a really really wrong understanding of them in all kind of in our culture you know. This is a place where women were owning and running and managing musicals and the leading stars were commanding as far more than any male star time. It's a huge pace of female empowerment and a place where women were very where of how to economize their sexuality or their sense unity to whatever degree that is whether you're playing the virgin or whether you're playing someone who has sexual knowledge you know in in your songs or in your character and that's that's very interesting to me do. I was kind of fascinated and I wanted to. Kitty in context that she wasn't the only woman you know she wasn't unusual. So there's two of my favorite women that I was studying during my PhD. Which is Bell Bilton who manages to Seduce and also some and marry him and they by all accounts have an incredibly long and terribly happy marriage for the rest of life but she's dragged through the press by the Oh when it's discovered that his son has married her because he hasn't achieved his majority at and so isn't allowed to marry without permission and her father his father sorry. His father starts divorce proceedings on his son's behalf. I mean can you imagine? Can you imagine that happening today that your parents would have the right to divorce your spouse on your behalf? I mean so this this huge court case that takes over London's society. Everyone wants to know. Everyone wants know what bell wearing in court. Everyone wants to know what's been said. You know this huge kind of newspapers. Taking out shop windows to showcase that day's events in the trial and one of the things that so amazing about this trial to me is bell admits on the stand proudly without any fear that. She's had an adjustment child that she wasn't married a the man who was before husband that he's now in prison that all of these personal things about how life and hasn't drowsy has actually and she does so without fear. You questioned on the stand and you know if you think if you're hearing this story and you think this is a working class musical whose managed to cities. Nelson is an admitting to all of this what we would have thought we'd be sexual impropriety. The only outcome of that is that she's going to be divorced and probably locked away somewhere and the opposite happens completely. The eldest son appears back having been sent on a boat to Australia and has snuck back into the country appears at the trial. Reads all of these letters between himself and bowel that talk about the huge love for one another and the judge who's known as the great area because he presides over the divorce trials tense the jury at the end and says just because she's on she's had an intimate child and just because she's in the musicals does not mean she isn't a virtuous and you have to judge us? Accordingly an acoustic comes back and the entire cases thrown out because these two young people have stood up and kind of declare their love for one another and it just kind of blew my mind because everything we've been talked what I have constantly found with my research and with the way I would. I choose to look at history the where I go. The thread sites used Paula is that it completely challenges and changes Traditional understanding of that moment in time and that for me is kind of the most exciting and fascinating thing about being a historian of the moment. you're listening to little atoms. I'm Neil Denny. Today I'm talking to Dr Fern Redel and we're talking about her book death in ten minutes. Kitty Marion activist arsonist and suffrage yet and so I guess we should talk about. How Do Mary Kay suffrage yet? We've talked about a few of the things. of influenced her weighed upon her during her early life. How does she encountered this affects? How did she become one? I love Kissy story of how she became a surfer job. Because I recognize it looked at this idea of. I'm not actually interested in this form of feminism. I don't want to be part of it. Oh I've gone to a meeting. Oh God I'm now committed. I have to do this. This is everything to me. Is that moment of feminist? Epiphany that I think many people recognize in life's west suddenly something changes for you and that shifts your home worldview. And she's been working the musicals for about twenty years by this point desperately campaigning to try and get protection for women in the industry and not getting anywhere and number of acting. Friends say we're going to march with the suffragettes In this huge Hyde Park marched highpoint was happening It's going to be amazing with taking the boundaries of dentures franchise league come with us and he goes no no. I don't want anything to do with those hooligans. Read about them that terrible people that don't anything to do with just kind of convinced to go. And she walks in this March hearing the women's March as seeing all of these banners listening to all of these lectures of all these women who want exactly the same thing as she does which is either protection in the Industry. The right to be heard the right to have a voice in government and the right to have a say in control of your life and she sort of disintegrates at that moment going. Oh my God where these women been on my life. This is everything I want an I need and she after that walks into the kind of the headquarters of the WSPA which is the women's social and political union who are the suffragettes. That's the only people that we should be calling suffragettes the members of the WSB and so two says what can I do? I'm here I will do anything. And she gets kind of put to work as a magazine telephone answer and then as the suffragettes move into our very violent campaign she ends up. Becoming. I kind of term Edwardian England's mice dangerous so all sorts of things that they do. Let's talk about some of this the outrages as they were called in those days this for me was something that just blew my mind because growing up. I never heard about the BUMS I ain't. Anyone does do so many public talks and now and people come up. The first thing they say is I had no idea but kitty was part of a nationwide bombing an awesome campaign that really hit. It's peak between nineteen twelve to nineteen fourteen that involved bombs on commuter trains in MP's houses in public parks in churches in theaters. Acid attacks chemical attacks asthma attacks incendiary devices left across the country from Glasgow to Portsmouth to Ireland. Dublin Belfast all the way through London. They tried to build up some polls they brought the Tabernacle. They blew up. A Lloyd George's House you know. This is an exceptional absolutely exceptionally violent. Domestic terror campaign that we have never acknowledged before and I think. What's really fascinate again. This sort of parallels is the modern times so I guess I naively imagine them going around with like round things we've fuses coming out of the top but these are literally pipebombs terrorists us now with bits of random metal put inside them to cause more damage again. Exactly the same as somebody blowing up. Something nowadays us. Yeah I really struggled with that. Say this this became then. Of course my obsession my PhD. And I started compiling. Here's databases of every bomb attack. That happened across the country that I could find through newspapers through reports three police reports and SORTA visiting local archives National Archives and just trying to mine data from wherever I could to create maps of the bombs to try and identify the BOMAS. All of it. I really became a huge thing. Because in the entirety of our historic graffiti only one other historian has ever looked that. And that's mangled CJ baron in detail and he started to COMPA Tax and right one single journal article on it. That's all we have to talk about this about this. Quinton history which to me seemed insane. We should know everything we should know about this. So I started doing that myself. And kind of The things that I struggled the most with often worthy descriptions of bombs because they are kind of large sort of seven inch by four inch by inch deep kind of canisters often packed with either gun powder nitroglycerin on a time device that then has been packed around with shrapnel nails. Bits of metal. And when you look at the photographs of a lot of the bomb at the aftermath of the bomb attacks especially on the trains. You know it's literally explode. It's exploded. It's destroyed and the most incredible photos of one of kitties. Attacks is the inside of a house of the MP. Arthur D. Crowe which is in is in the images in the book. That is this hugely ornate who that has been completely gutted and it's Yukon kind of get away from the impact of the bombs once you see the actual visual evidence and I I have had a lot of in kind of feminist historian circles and rainy only there a huge pushback from bringing this history to light and from exposing it and that surprised me also unfortunately makes me even more it and even more determined to kind of bring it out because I think it was just. That's just the way I am. I just felt we had to talk about it and we have to know about it. One of the most kind of the moments where it really brought home to me is you know. I didn't use the word terrorist likely. I grew up not going to London because the IRA would at Christmas. That's what you didn't do in the eighty s and I had friends who regularly used that bus route for seven seven for their studies so I know ferry well as many do what. Terrorism means and the reaction. You feel when you hear the word when you're thinking about it but you can't get away once you look at. What was actually happening. What they were actually doing which is intensely detailed in the book. You can't get away from. That's what it was. And also the suffragettes themselves owned it in a crystal Pankhurst with print double page spreads of all the photographs and every single report of every Bowman Austin attack underneath the headlines of reign of terror. Emily Pankhurst states in her own autobiography of this period. That the whole purpose of the bombs and the arson campaign was to throw the British public into a state of deep terror and insecurity and fear. We need to understand and we need to recognize that they saw themselves as terrorists. That's what they saw the violence as and we have to allow them to be what they were. We can't sanitize our history. Just it makes us feel more comfortable and happier with idolizing women who have committed incredibly violent and dangerous actions for us to have the rights. We have today when these acts of happen. Then how does kitty start to be treated at the hands of the authorities? Well she's been arrested in force-fed a number of times before the violence as so many of the suffragettes were and I think what few people have have really understood because we haven't talked about the real violence and horror. Is that what it really pushed them to? Was that this the process of force feeding and government torture was a huge moment in the radicalization of a lot of these women that push them towards the extreme violence of their acts at one point in one single sentencing. Kitty as force-fed two hundred and thirty two times in one single set of four months and it destroys a singing voice. And you know when you're reading kind of her firsthand accounts or any firsthand account of the experience forcefeeding. It is torturous together. And you just you always have to carry in your mind that the whole reason why was happening was because she wanted me to have the rights. I have today and we wouldn't have them without her. What's also going on at this? Time is the First World War and Kitty obviously of German extradiction. She's betrayed by somebody. Basically reported there's women start that she's a German spy. It's you can't you can ask for a better story than the life story of this credible woman because it just goes from kind of one amazing extreme to another and the joys of being a historian is you get this autobiography with this amazing tale in and you then spent years going off making sure. It's all true because you quite suspicious because how can be true and yet it is. It is all true. It's all there so kitty. Because of her German blood it turns out that someone from her past decides to seize on the moment to. We don't really know what her motivations were. I think she was probably just mad to send a letter to the Home Office proclaiming that Kitty is at suffragette and a German spy. Now by this point kitty has been in England for over half her life. She's lost any trace of her German accent. She Nagas speaks German. She has no German friends. No German family. She you know she has no connection to Germany whatsoever. It is the distant dream of a child immigrant. A memory yet. Of course the government sees on this opportunity to try and get rid of them most dangerous woman. I find this to sort of things that happen at once. Kitties already on the run underneath the cut in mouse act because this is the moment where the first world war is breaking out the suffragettes on the run. They don't know still from all of the things. The amnesty hasn't quite taken off the what's going to happen. So she's hiding from the place already and she his reports that they're searching for her under this accusation of being jammed spy and she's trying to figure out if she can get out of the country or what's going to happen whilst the government's investigating her and trying to piece together if they can actually throw her out of country and one of my favorite bits of archive was sitting in the National Archives in Q. Reading the government reports of this investigation which are all in the you kind of all drawn from an important to the bank. But the moment when they realize there's literally no way of being able to accuse her of being gems spy for because she she has. She isn't one and that kind of gut isn't and they're like there anyway. There's all this kind of little scribbles in the origin of like. Is there any way we can do anything we can get rid of? And they realized that they can't and they will also fear terribly that because she so influential and important in the suffrage movement that if they do trying to pull her that the this suffrage at will kick off and might even stop bombing and by that point per society cannot take a domestic campaign again but while they are concluding this. Kitty is being kind of. Hof escorted by the police who've now found her and by the suffragettes who are trying to rescue her to the Docks Liverpool and they managed to put her on a boat and sent it to America to just get her out of the country and keep us safe and she arrives shortly after that into New York whilst the wars breaking out and from that moment on her life is again changed forever and so she's she finds New York and eventually will become involved. Margaret Sanger and the organization that becomes planned parenthood and she remains involved in activism for large parts of life. I WANNA pass over that period of time. It's a major part of a libraries. Want to get to like where she ends up. Where does where DOES KITTY END UP? After this what says she becomes a hugely eventual. Part of Margaret Sanger's control movement working between the US and the UK until really had death as birth control activist and kind of sneaking into churches. Live leaving bombs. She's leaving birth control pamphlets which I just love disrupting society wherever she can but she ends up back in New York in her. Seventy s in the forties and. She sits down to write autobiography because she realizes that won't her? Life is unique and yet shared then needs to be a record of it. She desperately wants people to know who she was. And the role. She played as well as all these amazing women around her and so she kind of sets down to kind of write it all out and and leave it to everyone and then dies as we're in the middle of Kennedy going into the Second World War and I really I when I was writing the book. I really struggled with that moment because I had no happy ending. Inequity dies surrounded by friends and family. But she's never married she's never had children. There's no record part from her words of life and who she was and I desperately wanted to find a way to have a positive ending I. I couldn't because everything that had happened to her. You Know Society hasn't changed and I was writing this in kind of August. September of last year thinking. Nothing's changed and thinking of my own life and thinking over the experiences of very good friends of mine and being angry and frustrated that nothing had changed. World is not different and ISO sitting down to chapter. Ten metoo happened and it was insane and I had to write to my publisher and Guy. Please can you. Can you just give me a couple more weeks so I can watch this happen because for the first time it feels like we might finally one hundred years after? Kitty was fighting for the same thing. An actress fighting against sexual harassment. Trying to change her world we might fund be getting somewhere and I was very lucky. They gave me the chance to watch it. Come out and say the whole of the last chapter is capturing that moment of history as it was happening which was an incredible thing to be able to do as a historian to start with. Mary wollstonecraft to tell US AMAZING. Life and then of Kitty Marian and then capture a moment of our own social revolution. The very end. I still can't get over that. That is what happens that I was there at that moment. And that is is how ended and it finally gave me a not so much a happy ending but a hopeful ending the buck because we should have one we should. I get really angry when all we do is portray women in the past victims. Because they're not they're so strong and they're so determined to change the world for the better and often that gets lost in kind of stories of just slowly of abuse or just of death or the end or an ending. That isn't quite what you want so to be able to end the burke today with where we are now felt incredibly powerful. Now I was gonna say changing the subject. Of course it's not really changing the subject. I'm not sure yet when this is actually going to broadcast but at the moment that we're recording it over the best. You've started a bit of a movement on the twitter. I think it would be very proud but I just home so last week. The Boston Globe and Mail decided that it was going to remove title of doctor from its interviews from anyone who wasn't a medical doctor and of course. I have quite an iron in the fire of this because I have I am Dr Edward L. and I work in the press. I work as a public expert. You know I do. Tv AND RADIO. The whole point having hd is so that people know. When I right? When I talk when you him speaking I'm doing it with authority. I know I'm talking about. I am not going to lie to you. I am telling you what the years of my career and research have shown me about our past and I I really do resent massively the world. We're in at the moment. Where style guides are removing expertise from the public domain? What is the point of journalists coming to speak to me my expertise if they are not going to acknowledge that because how else people know who to trust so I get very wound up very angry about this and I saw was happening online and I just added of my voice too many voices of academics talking about how that was wrong and so stating that I had my you know I am not ms? Oh Mrs I am Dr Andrew Del. That's my title and I've earned my authority and that's what I want to be referred to and did quite well and a lot of people kind of a lot of women kind of react to this and then almost instantly with sending that out a man slid into my mentions to say I think. What you've said is legitimately modest right. That's ridiculous because working on sexual culture we sexual MARCUS TO REMOVE. Women's voices from the domain. All the time I've been told I'm vulgar immodest I need to learn humility simply stating that in a public setting. If you're talking about my expertise you should state my title to show. I have expertise and I just sent off a Hashtag which I made this modest women as kind of an afterthought and over the next forty eight hours I had ten thousand ten thousand new followers and Hashtag went completely viral and in most insane an incredible way and he we all six days later and it hasn't stopped on. Twitter is full of absolute incredible women adding their titles to their handles to take home of the authority that they have. And I think that's an incredibly powerful and amazing thing you know so many kind of one of the awful things about it with so many women coming to me and saying I have I have my title but I never use it or I always downplay it because it felt like I was bragging and A. PhD. Is Plenty hard work? We work really hard as anyone does to add something original to the world around us to be part to show our case our expertise show why we know what we're talking about and yet women and solely women consistently felt that they should restrict to when they use it to say the simple moment where they might give a talk or lecture which is ridiculous because when women's marriage you don't call her ms time unless you ask you to refer to her as Mrs. It's because it is simply. Her title. Doctor is simply my title and it is how I should be to. It's that simple. That's all it is and I I just got this. I got kind of divided into two things of all of these incredible women which has now emerged as a Hashtag has now become an international movement. Which is insane but also incredible. And I'm so proud of and it just has a life of its own I. I can't stop watching it kind of being blown away by it but also this overwhelming number of men who immediately came to me and said your modest. This is vulgar Need to have more humility and I. I have always been friends. Tell me as of a terrible feminist in I. I don't like to see the world as sexual I like you know. I don't like to see it that way and I don't like to set men and women against each other but having experienced experience it it completely shifts kind of your of what you thought new store about the world and is this recognition that actually in our society. There is a section of men who feel deeply challenged by female expertise to the point where they have to use language that connects to sexual immorality to try and Amini. And I think that's fascinating it's horrifying but it's also fascinating how why and what that means Sort of what you do right is your field of expertise. That's been happening. That's what this book is about. I know I know and I've had so many people I've had. It's just been insane. I've had mental me that I have to prove a PhD. And actually. I'm Russian. Bought the here to take down society democracy from within. Oh I've had I've had kind of total of had like parody accounts fake accounts and trash counts setup to kind of really do everything they can to make my position in public untenable and to try to scare me and remove me and you know often when we talk about that. We talk about famous campaign. You are tackling incredibly difficult things like abortion or female representation on it. I mean I suppose I am talking about female representation but also I'm a historic and yet I face the same backlash so. It's not just ask that people are finding issues triggering. It's actually that a certain section of our society thinks this is an acceptable way to behave and they have a right to behave in that way. It's been a very interesting experience watching it happen. And at times it made me feel intensely vulnerable when you suddenly have kind of an explosion of people who want to know what you think and what you say and really excited as well as people who are just insane. It's quite not putting but it it takes you by surprise and I had to kind of turn everything off on Sunday on down on day five because I just needed to kind of get my breath back because it was so overwhelming but also I think one of the greatest things about social media is that it can lead to change like this it. We wouldn't have time up. We wouldn't have metoo. We wouldn't have a modest women without the ability for people men women to connect in a huge way that they've never been able really realistically been able to do before so I'm very. I'm very proud of of that and at the same time. It's definitely been an experience. So I've been talking to Dr Arnn Rideau. We've been talking about her book debt in ten minutes. Kitty Marian activist arsonist and suffragette fan. Thank you so much for coming in and tell them about it. Thank you very much. This episode of little atoms was produced and presented by me. Denning was first broadcast residents four point four supported by eight and the podcast hosted by eight. Tenths find design. And if you like the show do leaves within you can find out interviews new journalism more on our website little atoms dot com from. Thanks for listening.