A Conversation With Jane Goodall
From NPR and Wvu are Boston I'm Anthony Brooks, and this is on point when you were a child, what did you want to become our next guest dreamed of living in? Africa, on wild animals and Sunday writing about her adventures and her jeep dream came true Jane Goodall began studying wild chimpanzees in Tanzania sixty years ago. In July nineteen, Sixty Jane Goodall a twenty six year old English girl has embarked on a remarkable invention. At. The request of the British answer biologist Dr Leaky, she has to observe the daily lives of chimpanzees in east, Africa that's from the National Geographic documentary. The hope which came out earlier this year goodall taught us how much we have in common with chimpanzees over the decades she expanded her work and became a leading conservationist and climate activists. Jane. Goodall. Is the founder of the Jane Goodall Institute and United Nations. Messenger. Of Peace She's also dame dame of the British Empire and she's the author of more than a dozen books including my friends, the wild chimpanzees which came out in Nineteen sixty-nine and reason for hope, a spiritual journey which came out thirty years later, lots more books in between Jane Goodall welcomed on point and congratulations on sixty years of research in Gombe Bay and it's truly an honor to have you on the program. Well. Thank you. Antony, and it's lovely to be on the program which I've been on the number of times before and yeah, sixty years is pretty amazing. He is gone. Well, it is amazing in the work you've done is truly amazing I wondered if you could serve take us back. We heard that clip from the documentary, which is wonderful by the way take us back to July of nineteen, sixty, nineteen, sixty or twenty, twenty-six you land in Tanzania to study chimpanzees. What was the first challenged you faced when you arrived? Actually the first challenge was getting to the Gumby National Park where it was a game reserve than. The the problem was that on the other side of Lake, Tanganyika just to cross the were. They Belgian. Congo's it was then had erupted. There was violence, and so the little town when when we arrived was absolutely fall of fleeing refugees love step Olympus. So it was it was about two weeks before I was allowed to proceed along lake and get to the Gumby. National Park but once I got there. It will seem rather unreal. It just felt am I really here can this really really be me Climbing up after the tent was erected and looking out over the lake and hearing baboon sparking. Breathing, in the smell of the forest really was magic. I bet it was I have to imagine that just finding your subjects that chimpanzees I mean. It wasn't like you arrive there put up your tent and then sort of sat down with your notebook and just started studying them I mean how did you? How did you go about finding them first of all? I put the first three weeks. I was made to take a local guy with me by the British authorities. It was still part of the crumbling British Empire back then. They wouldn't let me go out alone. So he showed me some of the trails and the could was you climb up to a place which overlooks the valley and then you wait and you hope that the windows to violent. So you can see trees moving and often it turned out to be baboons or monkeys, but sometimes, it was chimpanzees and once I was able to be on my own, which is. Exactly what I wanted to do. Then, I, would find a tree that was ripe fruit. They're very early in the morning and wait and chimpanzees away. As soon as they saw me, we've never seen a white eight before. You. Know they just they're very conservative. And Well I was really worried though Sony money to six months. I was afraid that the money would run out before I found anything really exciting. Of course you did find lots of exciting things. One of the things I wanted to ask you is to talk about your connection with them and to to animals in general because one who has watched a film of you interacting with chimpanzees I mean, there's this incredible sense of. Connection it's it's not just a skilled scientists observing. There's something. That is really human to animal connection I'd love you to describe that because it's quite powerful. It always brings tears to my eyes when I watched the footage of you working with these animals. I think it started when I was born loving animals until all my life by being outside and Magadan waiting for. Eggs to hatch into baby birds waiting till they've fledged and keeping very quiet. So the parent birds got used to me and would come in and feed the babies and I would watch squirrel occasionally there was Fox, and of course, I had this wonderful dog who taught me so much about animals. So when I got to Gumby I hadn't been to university nobody else was studying gyms fact virtually nobody was studying anything in the wild and so I just did the same thing and gradually gradually chimpanzees got used to me. and. Was David. GREYBEARD. Beloved David Greybeard who I began to lose his fear and he really helped the others to lose fear because if he lives in a group with them instead of running away they social I suppose they thought well David sitting and he was a leader. So she comes so scary after all Aman gradually the lack of fear turn to aggression that was a pretty nasty. Through four weeks where the chimpanzees three to like Predator, it wanted to go away. But I. Didn't I just sat pretended I was interested in them and interestingly it was specially when it was raining and you know if you're watching people in the pelting rain, you see him take risks though. The road they normally wouldn't an chimps go a bit like that. But anyway eventually they realize I wasn't going and luckily they didn't try and attack me and much much stronger than we are. And then that aggression turn to tolerance acceptance and trust and the seems that you saw in that in that documentary, you know we couldn't do that today. We don't interact with them today. We know they can catch diseases we can catch this. So it's not today but back then. Anybody who was studying animals tried to have a close relationship and I those days absolutely. The Best I knew the chimpanzees so well, I trust them may trusted me. And it was wonderful. It sounds absolutely magical. I WanNa ask you about. One of these major discoveries that chimps make and use tools nobody knew that before you did that can describe that discovery and how it made. You feel when you observed it I mean when you sort of figured out what they were doing did you know at that moment that Oh, my God? This is amazing. We didn't realize this before. Now. Remember him being college. I wasn't his son his and it was David Greybeard did David Greybeard and that was walking through the forest to being raining and then I suddenly. So a back shape sitting on a termite mound and I wasn't really close but close enough to see very well through binoculars and I could say him breaking up grass stems pushing them down into the termite mound and picking the insects off with his lips amid sometimes breaking off the leafy twig which had to be trimmed to make it useful as a tool and quite honestly, it didn't surprise me that the. Chimps could do that on the other hand western science that only humans Houston made tools. We were defined as man the toolmaker, and so I knew that this was a very exciting observation I knew that my mentor Louis Leakey would be tremendous excitement and indeed it led to the breakthrough because he was able to approach National Geographic and not only did they provide money for me to carry on the six months ran out but eventually they sent the photographer and filmmaker Hugo Van Loic and it was his film that you know that really took them the behavior of chimps around the world. My guest, this hour Jane Goodall She's an Thala Gist conservationist activist best known for her long-term study of wild chimpanzees in Tanzania. Let's go to Jane. WHO's calling from Orleans Massachusetts go ahead, Jane you're on the air. Thanks for the call. Hi there. Thank you so much. Yeah. My question was how did you toe the line between accurately identifying the emotions you were seeing in these animals without overly anthropomorphized in them? Ric Question. Okay this this thing about anthropomorphized thing I mean. CA- quite honestly you know when I- leaky made me go to Cambridge when I being with Jim. SA- two years and I knew them as individuals I knew their behavior. Yeah. I'd seen. Grooming peacefully resting relaxing playing laughing. Weighing, Ping will not weeping but a being very, very miserable young ones when they weren't allowed to suckle anymore I'd seen anger resentment I'd seen sense of humor and. I was shocked when I got to Cambridge to do a PhD because leaky set was no time to mess about with an undergraduate degree. I was very nervous he can imagine. And be told by many of the professors tied done everything wrong. I shouldn't have given the chimpanzees names. They should have had numbers that was scientific and I couldn't talk about personality I couldn't talk about minds capable of problem solving and I, suck, me couldn't talk about emotions but you see when I was a child I, had this wonderful teacher that was my dog rusty and he told me that in this respect the professors absolutely wrong. We are not the only beings on the planet with personality mine in emotion and lovely because chimps. Oh, like US Biology Michelle Ninety eight point six percent of Deanna and because of Hugo's film. That science graduate was forced away from this reductionist way of thinking and today you can study all those things you can study personality mind and emotion I'm glad you made that point about dogs because someone who's had many dogs love dogs I've always felt like, of course, there's emotion. Of course, there's personality of course there's all that stuff that doesn't just belong to US human beings. We're talking Jane, Goodall about her legacy climate change and conservation coming up later in the hour stay with us I'm Anthony Brooks. This is on point. This is on point I'm Anthony Brooks, we're talking about sixty years of research with Jane Goodall ethologist conservationist activist and founder of the Jane. Institute, she's a global conservationist. She's active as well in spreading the word about the importance of tackling climate change, and we're GonNa get to all that as well as your calls. Jane. Goodall I. Just I have to come back to this question about dogs that came up before the break because I've read that that. Dog's not chimps are your favorite animals that true. Absolutely true and you know chimpanzees. So light people don't even think the McDonald's I mean. They'd just it just I know ferry people. So. The explosive development of our intellect that really is the biggest difference. Yeah. Yeah. So your work has expanded from from studying and saving chimps to climate change and and honestly saving the world in that wonderful documentary. The hope you referred to at one point is the Mother Teresa of the environment. Bit of a tough job You say, but how do you think about the the biggest challenge that we're facing right now? Well I think this actually tree major challenges and one is way alleviate poverty. See African village and it's you know it's just huge crippling poverty as lack of good health and education. The degradation of land is populations grow and it was when I flew over the tiny combination apart, which had been part of a huge forest and by nineteen nineteen was the tiny island deforestation all around completely bay hills, and that's when it hit me. We don't help people find ways of living without destroying the environment. Then we come save the chimps so that began the Jane Goodall Institute JJ began of a program which we call to Cari. which is now in six other African countries very successful. I wouldn't go into it. People could look it up. On the web but The people have now become A. Partners in conservation. So one we need to solve poverty to we need to do something about the unsustainable lifestyle of so many millions of people on this planet to Waymo may need. Don't think about. Do I need this thing? I'm buying. And then we also have to think about the fact that seven point two, billion people on the planet today. And, already we're running out natural resources faster than nature can replenish them in some places and in twenty fifty, it's estimated there will be. Nine point seven billion ten, billion people. So these are problems that we we must be thinking about if we want planet, it's their huge problems. I won't ask you about that one you the one that you referred to as maintaining these unsustainable lifestyles and I wanna ask you about that because it seems to me that one of the biggest challenges is how we define progress and governments and lots of people define progress by growth by expanding GDP. So it doesn't work in opposition to what we need to do, and if so how do we deal with that? How do we reverse the thinking around? Expansion isn't necessarily compatible with saving the plan. It's it's compatible with destroying the planet. It doesn't make sense. You can't have unlimited economic development on a planet with finite natural resources and if we don't. Get together wine a new green economy and find a different way of. Thinking about success. What is success right now for the most part, it's you know being successful in business if money getting stuff I'm getting power. And we need to start thinking about success being we need to have a life that we can enjoy a life where we can support our family. Yes. But not go over the top with I mean who needs four houses quite come on health need. WHO NEEDS TO YARDS WHO NEEDS A private plane? A few people actually do but most people don't. So we have to rethink waylon because if we don't, you know we're already on a downward trajectory. That's why began our program for young people, roots and shoots because it's their future and we've been feeling it and thereby wound to be very passionate about these issues. Jangling and ask you about roots and shoots because I'd love to hear more about that program. We've got a lot of callers that want to get in on this conversation with you. So let's go to Lynn who's calling from bridgewater mass go hedlund you're on the air with Jane. Goodall. Thanks for the call. Hello thank you so much and Dr. Goodall. You're such an inspiration to so many and I love to hear from you how you. Went from being an observer to research church. Now, a worldwide activists and what words of advice you have to our young people to get involved and make a difference today. Thanks. You. Know it. It just happened and I think it was the geographic whose articles spreading around the world and People began to be fascinated by the behavior of the chimpanzees. And I don't know how I mean. People he says today that I'm an icon. Will I never planned to be an icon and at first I hid I mean I was so shy. But then after bit on left being was trying to raise awareness, raise money and things like that. I realized that when people came up in the airport and wanted to sell selfie or something I could I could use that opportunity to tell them about roots and shoots to. To say that they could help by joining institute and you asked about what we tell young people what I tell the young people is every single day you live you make some kind of impact on the planet and you have a choice. In this, very, very poor which when you have no choice but you know. The people listening probably can have choice think about what you buy. How Did it did it on the environment in its production did lead the cruelty to animals like the terrible factory farms Is it cheap because child slave labor or budge Wages that don't even enable people to live properly and made those ethical choices when billions people make those ethical choices then we start moving towards different world. Jane Goodall I won't ask you about the current pandemic and how that's affected your your research and and and and what you talk to people about in terms of the challenges we face because among concern concerns the emergence of diseases like covid. Nineteen. And, the link between the destruction of nature and the current pandemic I'm wondering if you can talk a little bit about that and how this pandemic has affected the way we need to think about these issues. That the way I think about it, but I'm hoping the silver lining will be that it helps more and more people to think about these issues and you know the people studying the so-called. Diseases Diseases that jump from an animal to a person. that. They. Have predicted pandemic like this we keep getting epidemics we keep getting diseases, we disrespect nature we destroyed for us we crowd animals together, which can lead to new animal diseases. We push animals into closer contact with people. That, you can have a virus or bacteria jumping from one animal to one person may be binds with a cell in the human body may be that leads to a new disease like coke nineteen and it's disrespected of animals. We we pump them, kill them, eat them we sell them in unhygienic a bushmeat markets in Asia, which is where HIV AIDS began we traffic them selling. Them from different parts of the world to the wildlife markets and pet markets in Asia animals from all over the place different species of crowded together in horrible on hygiene conditions, and again, it's a perfect environment virus or bacteria. Indeed. That's could nineteen is thought have begun in in one of these markets in will have in China, and saws began in another of these markets in China. and must began from domestic camels in the Middle East and many many diseases have jumped from animal to person in our. In our absolutely horrendous factory fogs. I WANNA play. A little bit of sound from the National Geographic documentary the hope in this scene, your with former US secretary of state James Baker reflecting on the partnership that you to form. You had lunch with him to discuss your goals and how he might help you. Let's listen to just a little bit of this. I remember during that lunch telling her that I love nature because I was hunter fisherman. But I'm interested in clean water and clean air and improves irving the resource and preserving environment. If. He seemed to think that. I was doing was. Something that was squad while because he telexed to tell those based telex only embassies of the countries I was going to, and he said please help chain. So I'm fascinated in this just because when I think of the work, you do I might not think of someone like James Baker as the first person, you would ally yourself with our get help from but but talk a little bit about that alliance in how he was. Helpful. To you and and into what you were to do the work you're trying to do. Well at that time, I was also tackling the use of chimpanzees in medical research and the terrible conditions, and so I was doing a lot of talking to different people on the hill and I. Think again, you know this this geographic film Jane, the Chimps Beauty, and the beast people were fascinated Michael got messages are so would like to meet you. That's what happened with them James Baker. I didn't initiate that he asked if I would come and have lunch with him. So I was just about to set off to Africa to learn more about the plight of the chimp. So they were gradually disappearing the poorest going on how he helped was this telexes to the embassies. They all help tonight. Manage to do a great deal more because of. The night could otherwise done because it was very little money by the way I tackled him about hunting. What did you say them and how did he respond? We I said you know that I completely disapprove punting them. and. They said well, yes I imagined you. You did and. We didn't pursue too far but I, you know I can't just sit and let people think approve of hunting especially now and especially. so-called sports hunting I mean that is absolutely horrendous today it's really horrendous animals. Becoming, extinct and people go out an rare of the animal and the more close to extinction. It is the more money they paid to go and it. Who can want to kill an elephant giraffe a bath, these beautiful animals, and then glow to them and put the heads on the ball terrible You know speaking of the work you did Around Medical Research and and and saving animals from the chimps in particular for medical research in that documentary. The hope you told there was a very, very powerful story of meeting a chimp named Joe Joe in one of the labs and he was in a cage and you reminded of what it's like for these animals to live in the wild and. The wonderful life they have in the wild and you had an emotional response, a tear trickled down your cheek. Tell us how Joe Joe responded. To that or You know I don't really know why the labs let me in true for them dead and this was the first one I was in a state of shock actually seeing I'm but I knew I had to see with my own eyes to really talk about it anyway this Joe Joe There are eight chimps in one room each in a separate cage. I'm still balls around and thinking about the chimps Oregon be He'd been there twenty years and of course, little tears sip down under my mosque and he reached out regionally. Wiped away the tears. And it was incredibly emotional moment for me and finally with the help of many other organizations chimps being. Being a medical research on chimpanzees as being stopped everywhere. That was It was quite a scene to see Joe's hand reach out and touch your face and wipe that tear away. You had other unlikely allies including several leaders at at the oil company, the oil and Gas Company. CONACO PHILLIPS WHO helped build a new facility for chimpanzees in Brazzaville Congo. So here's Rodney mcallister who was Conoco's a country manager and helped lead the project. The facility it had to be disassembled freighter to the Congo taken out over that miserable excuse for what's left of a road. Assembled in a location as remote and hostile this'll. It was my job and I believed in it and I wanted to see it happen. Jane asks you to do something. You're not a big off and say Nah. PROJECTOR. Hack now. So you and Rodney Macau's to remain friends to this day. How much flack did you catch for partnering with an Oil Company and why do you think it's important to work with people who you may not agree with in in very profound ways Well first off, it wasn't Conaco Phillips back then it's changed back. Then CONACO was the most environmentally friendly oil company probably ever I mean I can't go into toll now but when I I was offered held by them to set up a sanctuary. Social through very carefully and I thought well one. I've really learned about Nicole and what they're doing and how they exploring is having the minimal impact on the environment and secondly I'm flying I'm driving I'm actually paying money for their products. So how hypocritical to say well, you're really trying to do good but you're not all companies are not going to take your money in therefore the chimps will suffer it. It was just hypocritical. And still if you can join a company that's trying to do it right and help them to do better. That's a really good thing to do on the other hand to take money from a company that is really bad company not trying to make any improvement that's not a good thing to do. And what they ended up doing was was truly helpful right I. Mean they created a wonderful reserve for these for these chimpanzees. To a sanctuary, they built these buildings and they had good relationship obviously with the government. So that was really my introduction to the to the president and Minister of Environment. And Education. In Congo Brazzaville, which was incredibly helpful as the has went on Icho left because they didn't try and viable oil there. And so we had a big struggle to keep. Its Sanctuary. We still you know always trying to raise money about two, hundred, seventy chimps their now because of the Bush meat trade mother shot her. To eat. And babies sometimes pinched stolen to be attracted to be sent off overseas. Pet so train into. Medic. taught. Jayne. Good. Old Standby. We gotta take a break. We're going to talk about a lot more. My guest is Jane Goodall. Thala just conservationists activists best known for her long-term Study of. Anthony Brooks this is on point. This is on point I'm Anthony Brooks were talking to Jane Goodall about her legacy and the challenges surrounding climate change and species conservation, and let's go right to our calls Jane. Goodall. We've got a lot of callers who want to get in on this conversation. Juniper is calling from Nashville. Go ahead juniper you're on the air. Thanks for the call. Hi My name is Jennifer I'm eight years old. I was wondering what parts of the world need the mostly search because I want to be that Negro up juniper. Thanks so much for that Jane Did you get that? I hunt she wanted to be a bet on here a question. What part of the world needs the most research because yes, she wants to be a vet when she grows up. Well I, tell you that there isn't a single country where event needed where we need the every single country animals need help animals need to be protected, and sometimes they're veterinarians who'd come and work in sancturies to look after the chimpanzees we have battery help now in in the national parks for the wild chimpanzees because the so few left that we have to make sure to try and keep them healthy. So we can dot them and treat them if necessary a bad wound, for example. juniper thanks so much for that call Jane Goodall. I'm so glad that juniper called eight years old and I have to say in household. The there is cross generational appeal for you. I've been following your work for a long time. My nine year old son knows who you are and is. Really enamored of the of the kind of work that you do. So this seems like a good moment to ask you about roots and shoots and sort of what your messages to young people, but tell us about roots and shoots and and and what it does. Well, it it began in comes in and nineteen hundred one. and. It was when twelve high school students came to see me in my house and they came from eight different schools and they were very concerned about all kinds of different things. Poaching and Cox was the government doing more street children with no homes. A wide range of problems that they felt solving. So I told them to go and get their friends and we had a big meeting and that's when roots and shoots was born, and basically we decided that the main message was every individual makes a difference every day Rian individual as role to play in matters that every group would choose three projects. One to help people wanted help animals when to help the environment because everything in nature is connected and we part of not separated from the natural world big problem today. So Anyway, what began twelve hundred school students is now in sixty five countries and growing fast. and. It's got hundreds of thousands of members I don't remember how many groups are as many groups. We don't know about you know we suddenly found a little group somewhere in the forests of Ecuador between roots and shoots. We found out about the by accident. And they're changing the world that they literally these young people know that rolling up this leads taking action that planting trees, which is very important. Today that cleaning streams doing campaigns about. Single use plastic and today we have members in kindergarten. We. Have members in university and everything in between and they are changing while they are my greatest reason for hope and I hope any child parent listening will try and get involved because changes their lives too. So let's go to Tanya. She's calling from Concord. Mass. Tanya. Jane Goodall. Thanks for the call go ahead. Thank you Anthony. Great hosting and Ms Goodall it's It's a great honor to the listening to you and to be speaking with you I wanted to point out that in terms of for more experimentation on chimps year or so ago I was. At the conference at the Radcliffe Institute? Harvard. And there were researchers from China who were showing slides of their experimentation on chimps. In in trying to find a cure for depression and it involves crisper. Technique modest vacations, and it was very, very sad to see the poor suffering chimp and the corner of its cage just toddling over. It was a terrible sight and. and there was a push to get more US support to to get back into experimentation on chimpanzees precisely because of their. closeness to us and I I just wanted to mention that and hear what you may have to say. Thank you. Thank you Tanya Jane Goodall, to what extent are that kind of research still being conducted on chimps and to what extent are you still concerned about that? Now mostly monkey snow but. The occasional. Jim. In Germany, for example, to patents were just refused who genetically modifying chimpanzee. But. we have to shoot to live at China the huge movement in China to. Protect animals it's it's growing fast many states now bandaging of dogs and after the Kobe. And the government was very quick to ban the a sale, the traffic king, and the eating of wild animals. So it's changing it takes time you know America, for example, until recently was the second largest importer of ivory in the world coming to China then China banned the importation of Ivory And these things just take time but yes, we can try and fight poaching in Africa but we also have to work on the demand because when money is involved when people can get rich by shooting a rhino and selling its horn, they going to go on doing it even if it's illegal. So that's where roots and shoots comes in and we just working working away on reducing the demand for wild animals and cruelty to domestic animals well Tanya. Thank you for that call one more call Alex is calling from Walpole NASA -Chusetts go ahead Alex you're on the air with Jane Goodall thank you for the call. Thank you and I. It's. It's an honor I. Agree with everything that's been said in terms of. How we can help. move or progress in terms of the climate disruption and I just wondered. Jane. what you thought the biggest impediment was to. Progress on climate disruption and also maybe a personal kind of. question about what brings you joy. And All that. Thanks. Okay well festival at one. Very serious impediment is leaders in countries who denied climate change together. Latest in countries who as in the US back. Environmental Protection. Regulations, they try very hard to do that. You know there's me hoping they'll be a groundswell of people not wanting to go back to days pollution when Pepsi, the first time in a big City Bay had the privilege of breathing clean air, which should be a human right But while we have presidents and prime ministers and leaders who are dying to get back to business as usual and open up coal mines, things like that. It's very, very difficult, but we just must not give up. And what brings me joy. Well, it's being out in nature and. It. Doesn't have to be the forest chimpanzees although that's my. Most favorite. But somewhere out to nature preferably alone with a very close friend. And just feeling a part of it. And you know people associated with the natural one of our new see little children there in a beautiful place on our birds in there are butterflies and I saw two year old an all he was doing was playing around on his on his dental cell phone video games and things. This is tragic because it's been proved that. Contact with nature is very important psychological development in children. I. Glad you brought up how much you love being out in nature and in the forest because at one point in that wonderful documentary the hope you describe the feeling that you get as one you get in a Cathedral I love that that analogy. Yes I it's it's really true and there are some places in the forest when the trees kind of art show behead it reminds me of some of those great cathedrals where the such. In know whether you whether you're religious or not. But the atmosphere because so many hundreds of thousands of people have been in there they've been praying make being. Content with what I call a great spiritual power. And that's the same for me in the forest. Let's go to Marcus who's calling from Cambridge Mass Marcus. Go ahead you're on the air. Thanks for the call. On this is good all I've been I've been a fan of your's ever since I was a grubs H, your son grubs age and do the question is. The question is about zoos interaction with apes and zoos like here in Boston, we have the Franklin Park Zoo. And how. My interaction was I'm a painter and do oak via. was a painter and I brought my My pastels and oak came up and watched me paint and other guerrilla actually punched me. In through the glass because I was filming him for how do you feel about? People experiencing a bit of what you do with that kind of. Interaction and is is. Okay. Well, first of all this good soon, bad zunes, but I have to say that during all my years zoos have improved so much and the really good sues have wonderful exhibits not some space good animal groups. Keep pursue understand them and what's really interesting is that during the pandemic when the zoos shutdown. They animals became deeply depressed because for them the visitors of entertainment you know like television, them. And it was fascinating eating to talk to people still working in the zoos, feeding the animals and so on. Say that they were really really impressed. So he says were having to find ways to occupy the men cheer them up. So I know that many many people look into the is a chimp gorilla or elephant or whatever. It happens to be an that gets them and they're they're hooked for life. They understand they looking into the eyes a sentient being. What shouldn't be? Ever elephants dolphins whales. Probably will tube will need to run. You said there are good zoos and bad zoos. What's an example of of a good zoo? Your Favorite Zoo Well In the US, the San Diego Zoo is is is really good. It has wonderful exhibits and it also raises a lot of money for conservation of the animals out in the wild keepers. Get the chance to go and see the animals in the wild, which gives them a much better. Attitude when that looking up to the captive ones. So I think sue's play a big role in in education and in conservation. You celebrated you're eighty sixth birthday in April But in the documentary, the hope you say that the kind of life you're living now is completely crazy. There are times when you thank you cannot go on like this and and I think if I'm recalling correctly, you travel something like three hundred days a year. Dick. Yeah Go ahead. Sorry. To say, Oh, I, was just wondering. How do you find time to relax and unwind and guess what keeps you going three hundred days a year. Well thing is you know being grounded since the beginning of the pandemic luckily was called when I was at home here in a I'm speaking to you from the house where I grew up in Bournemouth England on the south coast. And own my things are here my sister have family here. So My A. It was a good place to be grounded. Are Fund I've had been so much busier during this time dive ever being in my life before with interviews like this and put costumes and skype. Reading books to children on Readiness Shadow man I did which is now out on our website free been reading other books children lots of emails and video messages to all the twenty four. Jane Goodall Institute's the Sankt enable needed cheering up and it's been very tough because the code it I mean Gumby were terrified that it will reach the Chimpanzee National Park and surrounding areas whether gyms because they catch your pieces. You have. You embrace this idea about hope and I want to ask you about this three of your books plus another set to release. Next year have hope in their titles documentary the National Geographic. Entry about you is called the hope what keeps you what makes you hopeful and I'd love to end on this note because there's so much going on right now from the pandemic. To climate degradation, which can really leave a person feeling despair about our planet but you have hope and I'd love to hear what keeps you hopeful. What I did will you hear all the time think globally act locally that's completely the wrong way round because quite honestly. I think everybody who thinks about the state of the planet globally will lose the they just. have any energy to do anything locally they'll be so depressed but of the whole message of roots and shoots if you start actually doing something to make a difference, ben you suck me feel you know while I am making a difference you know that will run the world of the people making a difference. So as I said earlier, the young people are giving me the most home. I'm very passionate about that. Then assists extrordinary intellectual. Ours. You know we're now coming up with ways that we can live in greater harmony was the planet with thinking about ways we can live a lighter ecological footprint every day, which is going to make a difference that makes you feel better. and. Then there's the resilience of nature I described flying over going beans a little tiny island ernest around it by Kooky. Onto any. Hilson. creeped ball. Because people. Puffing. And they realized The. Erosion. Well Jane Goodall let's leave it there on that hopeful note about the resilience of nature. Thank you so much for joining us today it's been such a pleasure philly great. Brian to everybody. Jane Goodall Anthony Brooks. This is on point.