12-19-19 Gaming standoff in Oklahoma
welcome doc into native America. Calling from studio forty nine in Albuquerque. I'm Tara would. The governor of Oklahoma is in a power struggle with tribes over exclusive of Gaming compacts Kevin stood insists the fifteen year agreements expiring January. Although just this week he offered to extend them the tribes contend. The governor is wrong in aren't planning on doing anything different. The stakes are high for both sides with nearly one hundred. Forty million dollars in annual game. invis- currently going to the state. We'll find out more and what the possible scenarios are right after national native news in this is National Native News Antonio Gonzalez nearly eighty years after the completion of ground. Cooley damn the spokane tribal receive seve. Compensation for losses suffered from the project. Steve Jackson reports Spokane tribe lost lands became submerged under the waters of the Columbia River. River also lost much more like the salmon runs that had fed their people for centuries so at basically was devastating to our tribal people. It affected our life. Our culture economy spiritual practices because this all centered around the rivers however the families impacted acted by the loss of land was devastating. Also because they lost their homes their gardens they had to move up to land. That was less Berdahl. Tribal Business Council chair. Carol Evans says promises were made for years by government officials at the tribe would receive some form of compensation Monday the US House of Representatives passed a compensation bill that had passed. The Senate last Summer Evans says that shows the bipartisan support. For the measure she says tribal officials will make a future determination as to how the money will be spent what we look forward forward to in the future with not only this but all of lar- economic activities to be able to really focus on the needs of of the tribal people. You know the Health Education Welfare Welfare that children the elders our language. Those are all important things. And each one of those. There's needs of and says the tribal receive annual compensation nation of approximately six million dollars per year for National Native News. I'm Steve Jackson reporting from Spokane opponents to the keystone. Xl pipeline tried to get it climate change reports into the record out of South Dakota water-management board hearing this week in peer TC energies attorney objected to repeated efforts to to include the fourth national climate assessment and other information on climate change for the boards consideration. Although the data was not allowed one witness testified taking climate reports into consideration when making plans for tribal water. Use Victoria wicks has more the second day of testimony started with a fight carried over from the first day when the Water Management Board held the fourth national climate report is hearsay and not admissible attorney. Peter Cap Acela represents the Rosebud suit tribe and Great Plains Tribal Water Alliance. The national climate assessment was declared to be here. Say if that's the case in the US gs data exclusively regard upon by the state engineer and the applicant is also hearsay. CAPELA moves to strike the testimony and exhibits. DNR and energy that that rely on the US Geological Survey also government data board chairman Jim. Hutton Marker denies the motion and testimony continues from the Water Resource Manager for the Rosebud. Suit Tribe Siad huck says he considers climate change data from several sources when he draws up policy for use of the tribes water but he says adaptation and mitigation of climate change is going to be expensive and impoverished tribes can't afford to adequately respond refiled production go drive the result of drought and climate change. Dange Oh we don't know what alternatives you know if we have to put a treatment plant on the little white river is going to be cost prohibitive for Hawk says Rosebud gets much of its water from aquifers. He says pipeline. Construction draws downstream flows when they're already low the aquifer fed by the rivers could suffer. The board will continue taking testimony through Friday for National Native News. I'm Victoria wicks in rapid city. South Dakota and demand Tony Gonzalez. The National Native News is produced by Broadcast Corporation for funding by the corporation for a public broadcasting support by Ramona farms offering wholesome and delicious foods from our Aaron crops as our contribution to a better diet for the benefit of all people we are honored to share our centuries old farming and culinary traditions online at Ramona farms dot com support by prairie edge dot com our special selection of dried herbs Cozinne for superior quality and many sage sweetgrass braids red willow bark. Cedar are wild crafted in rapid city or online at prairie edge DOT COM com. Won't below native voice one the native American radio network. This is native America calling. I'm Taraji would on January anyway. First Gaming tribes in Oklahoma say they will be open and operating as usual but the governor of Oklahoma. Kevin said certain gaming activity will become come a legal on this day for months. The governor has called on the tribes to come to the table and renegotiate the fifteen year old exclusive gaming compacts tribe. Say they're open to renew renegotiations but only if the governor drops his expiration date premise. That's what the reports are saying. Here are some numbers for context. One thirty one thirty one tribes signed contracts with the State tribes pay as much as ten percent into their gaming prophets last year that added up to one hundred and thirty nine million dollars going to the state. The governor wants tribes to add more. He he points to some tribes and other states and say that they pay as much as twenty five percent today. We'll talk with tribal leader here from legal experts about the dispute acute and what it means and phone lines are open for you. If you'd like to join us we'd like to hear from you. One eight hundred nine nine six two eight four eight is the number to dial in again. One eight hundred nine nine native is also where you'll find us on twitter and right now we're GONNA turn to Tulsa Oklahoma to say hello to principal chief of the Cherokee nation. Chuck Hoskin Junior and my pleasure to have him here. Principal Chief Hoskin. Thank you for joining us. Know so very good to be with you. And so principal chief Where does the Cherokee nation stand on What is going on in Oklahoma in terms of the possibility of certain gaming aiming expiring as of January first with Governor stands what is the position of the Cherokee nation will first of all and this is significant? We stand stand with every tribe in this state on the subject of compact renewal and that's significant of course because there are strengthened numbers and the Indian nations that are within the state of Oklahoma. Contribute mightily to the The wellbeing of state and On the subject of Renewal We are consistent in solidarity that Compaq Renews It renews and continues on past January. First doesn't mean we aren't willing to sit down with the governor and listened to an actual proposal which by the way the next time he proposes one. It'll be the first time you proposes one The we're in unity on that as well that we're willing to negotiate gate But this idea is January first deadline is simply Simply founding in what are your thoughts would feel some of this because says as reports say tribes in Oklahoma right now are contributing anywhere from four to ten percent of revenue. Going straight to the state where we're other states it's higher. What are your thoughts on this will if you look at the state if you look at a breakdown and look at actual numbers Not the charge. That the governor has trotted out during press conferences. You see that Are Exclusivity great tribes pay which is which is really between six and ten percent? is actually about in the middle of the country in terms of Being average Now there are some states where you see a high number. The Governor Likes to point to twenty five percent. You can go to the state of Florida. Where the seminal seminole tribe there has the exclusive right to engage in in in class three gaming and there are no other tribes engaging in that state and the twenty five percent Is just say that is a bit. Misleading misleading. Because it's really twenty five percent when you get On the order of billions of dollars in revenue so in other words progressive the fee structure. Twenty five five percent applies to the very very high revenue. Billions torpey But if you look at actual numbers if we care about actual we'll facts and I can tell you every tribe in Oklahoma cares about the facts were right about average in terms of the exclusivity rate and look over the past fifteen years. We've sent over one point. Five billion dollars straight to stay tougher For the state to do what was at the end of the bargain which is to use those dollars to provide for the The health and Welfare In the betterment of the entire State I can certainly tell you that the Cherokee nation this is true of the rest of the tribes. We all of our gaming dollars right back into our Our respective Areas are communities into into investing in our people in the communities where they it lifts and we really spend every single penny in the state But to get back to your question We're we're paying about average Oklahoma. It's been a win win in terms of the compact. It's it's GonNa keep on going after January first in so when we take a look at the numbers for the Cherokee nation. I know that there may be several numbers because it depends on which classic gaming you're talking about what percent is a Turkey nation pain. We well we. We're we're all in the same rate structure structure so when you're talking about Certain Games where where in the six percent range But it's tiered structure based on The the The revenue that comes in certain games were were a ten percent Bhawan is for example in percents but but the tribes are essentially fleet signed onto the same compact and where your revenue hits is where your percentages and and also certain games are tagged at a certain percent in in some of the things that the governor has shared leading up to this point in this week has been Explaining why the number in his terms is low. Oh because there was no gaming industry when things went into play. That's why these numbers were low. But now that there's a thriving one Things are different sprint in principle chief. What are your thoughts? Do you feel that. Tribes are being penalized because they're bringing in more revenue than ever expected well L. High. Clearly we are bringing in more revenue than was expected. But that means the state is realizing more exclusivity than ever imagined in fact the state has received cheap three times. What it project three? Times what. It projected That's significant what that reflects is is is an industry that has grown reached maturity And it's Paying the stay more than ever imagined you know we talk a lot about exclusivity fees and that's important. We also need to talk about the other way. The the nation's impact the state and so in our part of Oklahoma which is North East we're the largest employer in the state around eleven thousand boys our industry which is more than gaming but primarily gaining Supports another twenty thousand jobs And we have about two point. One six billion dollar economic impact on the region. So it's fine to look at exclusivity fees that's only part of the picture But again if you looking exclusivity fees yes. They have increased over time. The the percentage seems about average for the nation and effect. It is averaging. I think we'd love to get into talking about rates with the governor but we can't get there as long as they host this phony deadline over. So what does it mean when you hear the governor seeing. He's willing to offer an extension to the gaming compact. What what does that mean to you? What it means is that he wants to try to Essentially acknowledged that there is a deadline and that we need to take some affirmative step step to extend it and that's just not true. I mean he reads a very simple provisioned of the compact and stops at a comma and treats it like a period insisted that expires at the end of this year. But a A period is not a comma in after the comma. There's certain Certain certain conditions that would trigger renewal all of the tribes agree that those conditions have been met. And it's not just our opinion. I mean look governor. State doesn't have to listen into the chief of the Cherokee nation on this subject. He could listen to one of his predecessors particularly the one that negotiated the combat in the first place governor. Brad Henry who has gone on record saying I think this compact renews He could listen to Scott Meacham the former treasure. The state of Oklahoma was their negotiations. He says this compact he could listen to a very respected Attorney Seth Waxman the former US solicitor. Who has told the Tribes and made it public that the Compact for news. It seems to me that just about everybody who's looked at this compact with the exception of governor stood understands compact renews understands that they they common is not a period and and so He needs to understand that it renews when he says he offers us an extension. He's offering something that we don't need what we need. It is for him to acknowledge what the Plain language of the Compact is. If he does it if he takes that simple stamp we can get down to the business that I think the people of the state of Oklahoma and in our our tribal citizens by the way are Oklahoma to want us to do which is to reach a resolution of this matter in something can clear this up for me. the governor talking about reaching out to tribes have the tribes ever got an official invitation to talk about negotiations or. Is this papers floating around. Can you clear up exactly what has happened. Interaction between tribes and the governor and wanting to renew or even negotiate. What he's what is the truth? The first the first thing of substance the tribes got was reading a an editorial from the governor and the Tulsa world she suggested the tribes weren't paying enough and they we ought to pay more. Look that's not how A leaders of government should treat each other at certainly not the way leaders leaders of Indian nations ought to be treated and it certainly not the way previous governors have treated so the first thing of substance we learned about. It was the newspaper after that. Dan he Asserted that the compact renewed and he doubled down on it and tripled down on it We did invite The state eight to explain why they believe that It did not renew And we had a meeting good meeting with the Attorney General To talk about that subject but frankly we were UNIMPRESSED UNMOVED by the states analysis. which really wasn't analysis as to why the Compact for According to Governor State expired at the end of the year so there there really has been no invitation to bargain except for us to do so under a phony deadline. Now Look I. I'm not going to go to the bargaining table with the clock. Ticking on me to talk about a compact impact And I'm under the gun T to sign an extension or get it done by the end of the year. I'm not going to do. I made that very clear together. And the entire Every tribe and the state has made it clear to the governor so so far there's been no substantive negotiations because the governor won't allow that because he keeps It keeps hanging onto this boss notion that the compact expires and he's also assistant of the Cherokee Nation We go to break here but folks if you want to join us is calling right now. One eight hundred nine six two eight four eight is the number we do look forward to your call. Also WanNa let you know that we did reach out to Governor Governor Stitz office office to invite him to be a guest on a program today but we did not hear back from them. We'll continue hang tight On the next native America calling. We'll hear from giant Kevin Burger she is the reigning Miss Indian world. And the first seminal to hold. Oh the title won't talk with her about promoting important issues like raising awareness of mental health. We hope you'll join us. Support support by AARP WHAT AARP does may surprise you like supporting the US census to share information on job opportunities. That help your community. The US census determines your state's representation in Congress how funds are spent for schools hospitals roads and provides information to guide many decisions made by I federal and tribal governments businesses and institutions more about becoming a census worker at twenty twenty census dot Gov slash jobs. They uh aw aw. Aw thanks for tuning in today about our conversation about gaming in Oklahoma if you'd like to join us dial in one eight hundred nine nine six two eight four eight. Is the number number with us today on the line is principal chief of the Cherokee nation. Chuck Hoskin Junior our pleasure to have him here and principal chief. I know you got to get going here In I just want to give you a moment for any final comments but also wondering to the governor being a citizen of the Cherokee nation. Does that hold any weight on this issue. I'd like like to think that his citizen citizenship withhold wait with him in terms of Come understanding what. His nation does For the people of the State of Oklahoma I hope actually and remain optimistic that because he's a Cherokee citizen that He will he will find it himself to come to the table without these phony deadline so and you know I'm the chief of the Cherokee nation and and If he listens to US chief he'll he'll understand that We are a nation that wants to be reasonable with the state we want to reach an agreement and that certainly The consensus of all the tribes. Okay in anything else. You WanNa Leave Smith. Well I I appreciate never won you covering the issue. It's critically important. Uh Not only to the Indian nations in Oklahoma but all four million ago. There is a great deal at stake in terms of the economy in terms of jobs in terms of the impact. On families. do you WanNa make one thing clear that I made before. Which is the Compact continues after January? First we will continue operations as usual. which is a good thing for this forming and Oklahoma because that means we continue to contribute mightily mightily to the state's economy? I also always make sure people understand this In my view the Cherokee nation really all the nations within the state are are the best friends that the state of Oklahoma has ever had you have sent millions upon millions of dollars every year millions of dollars to the state of Oklahoma homeless coffers. So that they can do more We contribute immeasurably to the cultural fabric of the state We support the economy in so many ways voice from healthcare housing education jobs. We're they're building roads. In communities big and small were there for economic development projects were there for a charitable and philanthropic causes We are the best friends state of Oklahoma ever had but friends need to treat each other with respect and the state of Oklahoma by the governor is is not trading Cherokee nation respect But above all we wanted agreement if we can just get past this phony January first deadline and get down to business. I'm confident will reach one and when you come to an agreement are you talking about anything that really points out auto renewal well L. Auto Renewal. He needs to get off that issue. I'm talking about an agreement on any adjustments to the Compact that can be made certainly the exclusivity rates or something. We've been willing to talk about but again we're not going to talk about Under some phony deadline so if we can get past that Deadline of the end of this year If you will get off that issue then we'll get right to the table to talk about substance and to listen to his proposal again. The next time he makes a proposal will be the first first time makes proposal So we need to get there but we have to get past this This phony deadline principal chief of the Cherokee Nation Chuck Hoskins Junior. Thank you for joining us today. And I do want to let folks know we did reach out to the governor To invite him to be a guest on our program. Today we did not hear back but there's still time left in the hour or a representative listening and there's anything you'd like to share about the governor governor stance. You can give us a call. Two one eight hundred nine nine six. Two Eight for eight is the number and you know what let's hear. Some words from the Governor Governor Kevin Stint held a press conference on Tuesday reiterating certain and things will expire on January first but offered tribes the opportunity as he says to extend compacts until tribes and the state Were able able to come to an agreement but as you just heard from the principal chief. He disagrees with that. Let's hear what the governor had to say. The language of this extension will allow cy by signs onto the extension to retain their legal positions. I want business to continue as usual while we resolve. All this dispute you know. We approached the holidays and enter into twenty twenty I want the banks. The alcohol vendors the food food vendors the entertainers and the workers to have certainty and assurance that they can continue the gauge. His business while the state worse to negotiate in good faith with our tribal partners about what gamy los like for the next fifteen years also matthew. Morgan Oregon is the chairman of the Oklahoma Indian Gaming Association and a citizen of the chickasaw nation. We had a chance to ask him. What the OH I? G as position is on the conflict between the tribes in the governor. What we hear from tribal leadership is that by the plane? Terms of our compact. The the agreement has already been triggered to auto renew that He should acknowledge that that auto renewal and if he does then You know tribes are willing to sit down with him and talk about our proposal under the framework of our current compact compact was written fifteen years ago. It gives it provides space for for a tribe in the state to sit down and negotiate rates or exclusivity and that requires ars. You know a proposal from one side of the other that wishes to negotiate. He started this conversation about renegotiating. And we've been waiting on our proposal since he started this conversation and the second week in July and kind of leadership is never received anything from and so there you go more words and all this maybe this is something you are watching very very closely because it's important to your own tribal nation and folks who are listening outside of Oklahoma. Does any of this sound familiar. Something that may be your tribe has had to go through who when it comes to negotiating with the state and what do you think about these numbers challenges to the numbers any thoughts one eight hundred nine nine six two eight four eight is is the number and if you have any questions about how some of this works I'm going to introduce you to two people Who Knew it very well so you can ask your questions to join us? I you gotTa do is dial in one. Eight hundred nine six two eight four eight is the number right now. We're going to say hello to a guest joining us out of grand forks. North Dakota we have Catherine Ran. She is a professor at the school law at the University of North Dakota and is the CO director of the Institute for the Study of Tribal Gaming Law and in policy also at the University of North Dakota our pleasure to have here Catherine Welcome. Thank you glad to be here and also out of grand enforce is Steve Light. He's a professor of political science in the College of Business and public administration at the University of North Dakota and he is also another of your code director of the Institute for the study of Tribal Gaming Walk in policy our pleasure to have him here as well. Steve Welcome thanks to our great to be here and so we heard from principal chief. I'm sure there were things that really stuck out for you there and want to get your thoughts on it We also heard audio from the governor in so Catherine wanted to turn to you About what ever you heard in that clip or if you were able to hear the full press press conference That stood out to you so we can start picking away when we take a look at your background in law and in what is he's going on here what is a law see How is this? Lobbying interpreted anything you want to share on that Catherine sure and and so the interesting aspect from a legal point of view Over the dispute on whether the Compact terminate says the governor thinks it does or whether it's automatically renewed Which is the tribes position? Is that. I'm not sure that that actually has much bearing bearing on the negotiation factors for possible increase in the exclusivity payments. So I think think that getting past that issue to negotiating The terms and whether there ought to be any changes to the exclusivity payments. That's the more important issue and I'm not sure that that legally whether the contacts terminate have any has has any real burying on those factors into the governor appears In his press conference with a big blow up and it says a section or part fifteen b where he shows January first twenty twenty. What is that in in? How is that being interpreted or is it being? He misinterpreted sure that comes from the model compact There's a provision in the compact full paragraph that starts with that sentence offend As cheap hoskin points out is followed by an additional clause that indicates the possibility of automatic renewal The loveridge that the governor might gain in saying that the Compaq's tax actually expire comes at a an expense and that is of course the possibility that if tribal gaming were to stop on January first that impacts a whole lot of people in a whole lot of jobs throughout the entire state of Oklahoma it doesn't just impact the tribes and at the same time Of course the Compaq's are complex rather than contracts and they're subject to federal approval until the difference between compact in contract. Sure so a contract act would be between two parties and whatever they agree they agree but a compact a tribal state gaming compact is subject Victor Federal Approval in accordance with federal law and there is federal law on the terms of revenue sharing payments or exclusively payments that the state can demand from the tribe. So whatever ends up being agreed to not only will have to be approved approved by the Interior Secretary but also needs to conform to the federal law which requires is that the state give something to the tribes in exchange for asking for any increase in those exclusivity payments into to your knowledge? Are there any tribes. Who are on board with that or asking any of that? My understanding is that the tribes arrives in Oklahoma are willing to negotiate the possibility of changes to the exclusivity payments But of course they they would want those payments to conform with federal law because they want their compacts to be approved at the federal level and so the state will need to come to the table with something in exchange for any requests to increase those payments and talking about the compacts. Terminating is not something that is necessarily relevant to asking for an increased exclusively peanuts. Thank you very much Steve. Anything to add in and of course anything to explain because we know this can get complicated really quick anything to end Steve. Sure well I think Katherine has provided a a really nice starting point for us Following principal chief Hoskins comments and we are privileged to be on the show and also with With the principal apple chief. So thank you for that In terms of additional context. One of the reasons that I'm on the phone along with Catherine is that All gaming related issues news in particular tribal gaming have both legal dimensions and political and policy dimensions and so in in terms of Expanding on what Katherine Nsaid from just looking at the Compact And Compact language. That's sort of you know looking at the black letter of the law I as Catherine suggests asks and as as principal chief suggested as well there are many political and policy considerations and what stands out for me from you know to your question about. The governor's Governor's press conference and also additional comments. We heard today. Is that at some level both the governor and at least principal chief Hoskin or coming from a similar perspective in that governor acknowledged in the press conference that he wants business to continue as usual as he said That also is the position Russian of of the Cherokee nation and and the tribes writ large in Oklahoma and from there the differences really About when weather and and when and where to talk about issues like exclusivity rates. So I would suggest actually the positions while they seem like polar opposites. Because it's at the start are actually closer together than one. Might think in. So Steve when we say politics that also means You know taking a look at what motivates a politician to do certain things. Are there certain things if this with the governor bringing this Ford does it put him in a position to have other things going on in the state or who benefits from this if the governor continues to push for this that's a great. It questioned Tara and in terms of the politics within the state I I want to acknowledge. Of course I'm not embedded directly in the state of Oklahoma so but from an outsider's outsider's perspective At the outset you know a couple of things to note number one Gaming and specifically tribal gaming is an enormous a second engine for the state of Oklahoma. Everyone knows that in the state From tribal members to non native oklahomans to Republicans wiccans and Democrats alike. So that's the first consideration secondly politically speaking The governor with with a recent send election And being Republican outside. You know I don't WanNA talk a lot about partisan issues but being Republican And looking at the state legislature or as well in Oklahoma the governor has a four to one margin in terms of Republicans to Democrats in the Oklahoma Senate and I believe a three to one margin in the house. Republicans to Democrats and so he's potentially Using both the leverage of how he sees the language in the Compact and the the fact that he's negotiating from were seeking to negotiate from a position of strength in terms of Partisanship within state as well. But really when it comes down to the dollars and economic development opportunities that are afforded to the state. That's a nonpartisan issue. I mean not crosses party lines in with him being assist listen in Cherokee nation any thoughts there on unhealthy that plays into the politics. Any thought Steve another great question and I and I think doc You know at some level I deferred to principal chief Hoskin on that. I'm speaking as the chief of the Cherokee nation and talking about the relationship To the governor there but What what one would expect to see is government government government negotiatied on issues like this? That's the essence of a compact as Catherine noted as well. It's it's distinct from a contract and so the issue is less About which affiliations and more about the government to government relationship at stake here in. We've seen more tribal governments coming together on. This is pushing back Catherine listened minute before the break. Anything ed so I think that it. It also also important to recognize that in order for any changes to the exclusivity payments to be approved. There are two factors. Here's the federal government is going to look for in approving that I is that the state has authored a meaningful confession and second that the payment is proportional proportional to the economic benefit that the tribes will realize from the states concession. All right we'll get more details on this coming up after the break. I'm also wondering to what casino workers are thinking about all this. Maybe don't live in Oklahoma but in your state you depend on That job What do you think about all of a sudden things like this can get Debate it might even affect your future. You can share your thoughts to were curious. Yes you can give us a call at one eight hundred nine six two eight. Four eight is a number and if you're tuned in in Oklahoma and you come from one of these gaming tribes what are your thoughts. It's an all this. What do you hope your tribal leaders are saying what he hopes they'll do? What are they doing join us? Phone lines are open support by freedom lodge providing healing for seven generations offering a one of a kind two hundred our historical trauma masterclass beginning in May twenty twenty on the Oneida nation in Wisconsin for professional counselors therapists social workers and educators. There's no charge for tribal members. Now you can imagine an end to generations nations of suffering and the future of native wellness registration deadline is March. Second Information and registration at Freedom Lodge Dot Org hi Uh Yeah You're tuned into native America Calling Tara Gate with from sled a Pueblo. Thank you for joining us today. And we're talking about a dispute in Oklahoma over gaming. The Governor says certain gaming activity will become legal on January. First drive. Say the governor is mistaken. What do you think the number is one eight hundred nine? Six two eight for eight with us. Today is Katharine Ran. A professor at the School of law at the University of North Dakota also Steve Light a professor of Political Michael Science and in the College of business and Public Administration also at the University of North Dakota they are both co directors of the Institute for the Study of Tribal Gaming Law in policy my pleasure to have them there have him both of them here with us. Catherine speaking of illegal The government in his statement also shared that Vendors who do business with casinos may also be held liable for doing business with a illegal operation Russian. Is that true or can you explain a little bit if you understand why he said this. So the governor's position is that the compacts expire on January first Twenty twenty and if that's the case if the governor is this correct than the conduct of class three gaming would not be legal under federal law. But that's a big if and would require the federal government to agree with the governor. The governor doesn't get to make the call on whether or not The class regaining is legal on tribal lance or not But it's also important to note that that's only with regard to class three gaming The tribes class last few operations which are still fairly extensive in Oklahoma would continue to be legal And it would not be terribly difficult for the tribes to expand those classrooms Plus two operations if the governors Approaches correct so in that way I think that the tribes could act In a way that would be protective of the casino employees of all of the vendors and all of the other folks that have direct business ties to the casinos or indirectly benefit from the operation of the casinos. And that's why I'm being really adamant and seeing certain gaming and not just saying gaming because it ain't all of it that's being disputed right now but with Vats said Catherine what is the reality of all this okay so from what. I'm understanding what you're telling me that it is continues to push forward. This is going to be tossed into The federal arena. And you know. And then I'll ask. Steve Steve's will get ready Does the governor have the backing checking or are there any indications that the federal government is going to agree with the governor But but first Catherine tell us about What happens is is this going to be kicked into a federal arena? Are we seeing court in the future. What what do you see? It's possible That if the governor continues to take the stance that the contracts expire on January first and the tribes disagree that that dispute will need to be resolved through litigation but the continued operation of tribal gaming in the state is in the interests of both the tribes and the state so. I'm not sure that anyone actually wants tribal casinos to close their class. Three operations As Steve Said Everyone wants business to continue as usual. That's what's best for not just the tribes but for the state of Oklahoma The principal chief was definitely correct that the current exclusivity payments are are pretty much right in the middle of what we see nationally In terms of class three operations the twenty any four states that have class three tribal gaming. Do have some amount of direct payments to the state from the tribes but the vast majority of those are very modest payments Some fifteen out of those twenty four states collect less than two million dollars dollars in direct payments to the states and only a handful of states Oklahoma among them are the payments to the state in excess of one hundred million dollars annually and even among that small handful of states only a very few reach the level of The twenty five percent. The governor has thrown out And most of those are only only at point as chief Hoskin pointed out that a an individual tribes gaming revenue reaches a point of In the case of Florida four point five billion dollars annually would that highest rate kick in so the current exclusivity rates especially given the size of the Oklahoma the market the number of tribes in the state and The relative limited class three gains that the state has authorized. They're certainly not only average but maybe even on the high end average. If you look at the national picture in real quick class three gaming what exactly is it so classroom gaming gaming is everything that isn't class to but typically class three gaining Is Banked Card Games Like blackjack that you would play at a casino now Slot machines or other electronic gaming devices like you have in Oklahoma and Baldwin dice game craps and Roulette. so He's thinking of a casino on the Las Vegas Strip. That's the kind of gaming that's normally associated with class three another kind of class. Three three gaming Is Of course sports betting which is getting a lot of the national Attention these days to all right. So the one armed bandits Okay and so Steve Turn to you. you know if this gets kicked into a federal arena What do you see there or does this indicate that the governor has backing there any thoughts? Well I do think that the the first arena. That isn't a tribe live in state negotiation might indeed be Data the court says Catherine mentioned it. You know if this were heading anywhere it might head to litigation I I From there the question of of how the federal government in the in the body of the National Indian Gaming Commission in particular killer which is the Federal Agency that under federal law has some Oversight Regulatory Oversight Jurisdiction over tribal gaming. One one really wouldn't be able to predict What the National Indian Gaming Commission would do in this situation per se except that we have some ah important? Context and the context primarily comes in terms of The factors that Catherine mentioned before the prior break in in looking at a If the tribe and the state or coming together to renegotiate compact terms is there meaningful concession to the tribe from from the state and are there economic benefits to the tribe That the state is providing in return for the negotiation of renegotiation of Compact provisions. And and so so that's something that the NFC would look at it and the other piece of context is a the question of what is a fair rate for direct revenue sharing during As both principal chief hoskin mentioned and Catherine is well the rates that are on the books right now are In the in the average rain across the spectrum and that is something If not looking at you know the spectrum itself that is something that the national Indian Gaming Commission would be aware of. It looks at The extent to which state is providing meaningful concessions and and substantial benefits to the tribe. That are you know in a relative sense proportionate to the revenue sharing rate. That's on the table for class. Three Games so You know with all due respect to governor state I can understand from a negotiating perspective. Why he would bring or could bring twenty to twenty five percent to the table? The full picture is that there is a much much much broader range of revenue sharing that has been deemed. I'm to approved by the federal government and right now under the existing compact four class three Games Oklahoma sits squarely in in the middle of that range. No one used that word fair It seems like it can mean a lot of things. But what are general parameters that are used to equate the the word fair when we're talking about this Fairness in terms of of the calm of how compacts are looked at. Yes with a number a fair number. Yeah so Fair has a lot the different meanings I mean looking back. Historically for example. The State of California when Arnold Schwarzenegger was governor of the State of California and about fifteen fifteen years ago The governor at that time equated a fair share as he put it of revenue payments to the state as substantially stanchly higher than what was on the books at the time and and probably higher than than the existing rate and Oklahoma. Now but fair is really A term that needs to be judged within a specific state and and arguably against individual tribes as well in Oklahoma as as listeners listeners may know with thirty one or so tribes that are covered by class three compacts and thirty thirty eight total tribes in the state that are offering gaming in some Form there's a substantial range of Of of the economic benefits that are crude from the casinos Range in the size of at the casinos the type number of machines or games that are played the economic development opportunities from job creation And the locations agents themselves you know from say the Windstar casino that the chickasaw have which has upwards of eight thousand machines one hundred table games to the kinds kinds of casinos that you or gaming operations you might see operate it in a place like Ada where it's more of a travel centre or a gas station and there are fewer than one hundred hundred mish machines. So Fair is a relative term into Steve when we take a look at the state of Oklahoma in where some of these tribes that have gaming. Are there any tribes. That are close to borders with other states. Leading to any contention that may be playing into this. That's an excellent question and When we look at the the status of a tribal gaming nationwide It goes to the heart of thinking about out the maturity of the industry so that's a term that principal chief mentioned as well the the maturation. The industry means the extent to which the gaming gaming industry in Oklahoma has reached its peak in terms of some factors like The customer base the A The potential for revenue. The number of games Intertribal you know the locations of other tribes and tribal casinos and the potential for intertribal competition over revenue and then crossing state borders as you mentioned as well so Oklahoma's position Relative two other states it has captured a pretty a large share of the potential gaming market in the area. But that doesn't mean that That there isn't the potential for leakage to other states. If other states are able to offer a on the border in particular Things like sports betting that Oklahoma Homa doesn't have I think you for that and so so much of this one I was looking into it in in reading and kind of getting my head around it reminded to me of disputes. That went on in Mexico some years ago and it got pretty contentious Catherine does this reflect anything that you remember happening with with other states when it comes to gaming in conflicts with the state anything there so unfortunately we do see conflicts arising around revenue sharing and in particular we see those conflicts arise when the state Wants wants to get a larger share of a successful tribal gaming industry within its borders. So in places like like North Dakota where we're from We don't see these kinds of disputes There is not any direct revenue sharing a From tribal gaming to the state in North Dakota and that's simply because the market is modest enough that the focus is on job the creation rather than profits but in states like Florida and New York and California and now Oklahoma We do see these. Disputes Arise and the ideal situation would be a government to government negotiation Where both parties understand that? What's good for the tribes can be good for the state and they reach an agreement? That is is Both Fair in the political sense that Steve was talking about but also in the legal sense in that it satisfies the federal standards word for what is appropriate State Revenue Sharing From tribal gaming. So I think as long as we see successful tribal gaming gene and as long as we have states that have their own economic issues. We're going to see these disputes. Arise How they're handled handled? I think we'll tell us a lot about The values of the state and the value that The people of the state put on that industry and there should be no question that in Oklahoma the tribal gaming industry is important to everyone in any context for the institute sued the city of Tribal Gaming Law in policy. So Stephen I are thrilled to be the CO directors of the Institute. I tribal For the study of Tribal Gaming Law and policy At the University of North Dakota and We're glad to help Anyone who's interested in Indian gaming and try to provide unbiased information as much as possible and We're easy to find a through the University of North Dakota all right. Thank you for that. And that's GonNa wrap our discussion today. Whatever you're thinking right now go ahead and share it with us? Denison email comments and native America calling DOT com. You can also post your thoughts on our social media. Our twitter handle is at one eight hundred nine nine native and thank you to everybody. We heard from in the our principal. Chief Chuck Hoskins Junior. Also Catherine Rand and Steve Light We do appreciate you tuning in today tomorrow or inviting you back for a conversation that we had with Miss Indian world from the gathering of nations and we're also looking forward to the rest of the week and what's coming up the next if you WANNA get the highlights sign up for our newsletter. If you haven't already it'll get sent to you on Friday us. Uh so that you can see the details and maybe even plan your week around what native America calling is doing. Hey went all right thanks so much. I'm Tara Gatewood we will meet you here tomorrow as we open the discussion again. Two more things going on in our nation's ooh support by MATHEMATICA GEICO currently hiring classroom observers to work on the American Indian Alaska Native headstart family and child experiences survey which gathers information about the characteristics and experiences of children and families served by head start programs in tribal communities there are limited positions available. Application deadline is January tenth with twenty twenty information about benefits and application available at careers dot Mathematica Dot. Org Tau they dial two dinnie He Daniele Youth Anneli Dusty all-star eats at the attendees Toheah. Laney toss tickets Ditto. He today thirty ish out to USCA. Attendees all Nico where I get done to healthcare. Dot Gov No one eight hundred three one eight two five nine six. 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