Karen Williams, 211 Orange County
It's cutting into your exercise time it stabbing you in the back nine and it's attacking your peace of mind. It's pain and it's getting in between you and the life few onto live CD medic. Target your pain at its source. It's fast acting relief with active. OTC ingredients plus the added benefits of THC free hemp oil get get back to your life with CBD medic available online and at CBS these statements have not been evaluated by the FDA. This product is not intended to diagnose treat cure or prevent any disease. You are listening to the pilgrim on the four zero five with will crist join him as he and his guest discover how how businesses thrive in California well welcome to them on the four zero five on this bright sunshiny day in southern California. We are going to have a great conversation conversation today with my long time friend Karen Williams who is CEO of two one and I want to welcome to welcome Karen to the pill four five and once you tell us what is two one one. I'll thanks so much for having me and thanks for giving me this this opportunity to share with the community what we do to one one if you think about it in a nutshell provides hope to people when they're looking for help to navigate navigate the system of the different programs and services here in Orange County. What does that mean what that means. Is that when you're in a crisis the situation and I think we're very realistically. We kind of joke about it but we say everybody's only six seconds away from a crisis right. It could be that car slam. Stop I stopped suddenly and you bump into them or you could have a child who ends up getting injured somehow. You could have a situation where you've got a sister who is in a domestic violence. Situation doesn't know where to go. You could have a cousin who's a veteran who's having a problems re entering into the community. You could know somebody in your neighborhood who has a family member who has become homeless because they've lost their job. What two one one does in strictly by dialing the number two dash one dash one. It's the same thing that's dialing nine. One one you get connected to into us and we have access to over three thousand programs here in Orange County they run run the the gamut from connecting people to shelter programs if they're looking for housing to connect those or part of a domestic violence situation to a program that can keep them safe and secure we can connect people transportation options in the community. legal services just about everything worded to one one come from well. The genesis of two one one is really an interesting interesting one here in Orange County. We actually started in nineteen eighty four thirty five years ago when a number of the hospital saw that there was a need for away to connect people to the health and human services here in Orange County however at the two one one number actually came about in two thousand in four when a number of what we call ourselves in for information referral specialists across the State got together and petitioned Titian the California California Puc to get the number so there is a two one one in every community in here in Orange County. We've got ninety seven percent percent coverage. I think within the state of California this one up in L. A. County Riverside San Bernardino San Diego and obviously Orange County that Cetera what each of the individual to do is they get to know the community resources and make sure that they have a good idea of what what type of programs are offered and who they can see. It's it's to help streamline the path to the appropriate resource interestingly tinley enough to one one as a whole really took off in two thousand and five when Hurricane Katrina hit when I talked to one as a whole I mean and nationwide and when that situation occurred and it's no different than here in California if we have an earthquake wildfires right you have people who've never for needed to tap into the social services safety net who all of a sudden need to figure out how to get help because they've lost their home they they can't move back into their home for whatever reason united way saw an down in New Orleans after Hurricane Katrina that there was the need to build us into more of a robust system in the country so there are two hundred forty two one ones of those half of them are what I would call owner operated by the United way by the local united ways. The rest of us are independently run but we all have a good relationship with the local united way. I'm curious about what we did before before we needed to one one. I'm assuming that there was a time before two one one where there was a a need and I wanNA push back before that too before there was a need. How did these these yes social traumas. How did we deal with them then. Will I think there are a couple of things so this is pre nineteen eighty-four. Are you thinking so for that so I think obviously it has something to do with our social services network right. I think that there was a stronger longer sense of community and neighborhood one of the things I've found so interesting here. an Orange County is if you go back to pre the beginning of our organization in eighty four I think there were maybe a million people living here in Orange County. the thirty four cities towns operated very independently there were geographic barriers between them but I think that within each of the community entity say operated fairly independently and they they relied on themselves so if you think about it much more of a net a neighborhood network with the expansion of course where over three million people here and that growth came pretty fast and so you think about the stress rests on the system. I think we're just at the point. Now is a community that we really are building out systems of care which is always a challenge right because you have people who are still very familiar with operating things independently who are now having to work in a collaborative way but I do think societally if we take a look at it I mean for me one of the things I really see he is with the growth that we're seeing with baby boomers becoming our elderly now and the stress on the system what we're calling our silver tsunami soon Nami that we're really concerned about people losing their housing because a up one partner spouse dies and now they're down to one social the social security monthly check. They don't have the two and people are no longer living with their family. I that yeah no longer living with their family in what I'm curious about is do they even have a relationship with their family right well. That's a good point. I mean I- anecdotally just for myself I self I have a father who's ninety three or about to turn ninety three who lives in Colorado and he's still is living on his own very independent. He's it's great health. His doctor told me physiologically as is that of a seventy five year old which is Great but we've had conversations nations about him moving out here with us and I've had friends and I'm talking friends who are are seniors themselves who have said Oh. Oh you don't WanNa do that because it's as if it would disrupt your life well. I come from a family where we do that. Type of thing wouldn't even cross my mind not to do dad but I I think that's the exception versus the rule at least here in California. I don't know if it's true across the country but at least tyranny Orange County well I have heard about the the baby boomer's being the Sandwich Generation we find ourselves in a place where we're helping our children and through them our grandchildren and the same time we're paying attention to our our parents and and and and that to me is a part of the community that that AH deals with issues here in in now when things get out of hand or more than we have out of the resources uses or the contact with resources to deal with it would seem to me then something to one would become very important almost most like a safety net but not the place of I the the play the first place we're GONNA call We're going to look at each other. We're going to and be dealing with the family and I'm wondering if that's what was then and that there was a process of love I dunno a lot of people moving in without their families to California a lot of immigrants coming in in I wonder if if part of providing resources is also providing a path back to the development of community yeah I think that having a path back to the development community is very important I would say that where we function as a safety net as an example would be if you have somebody who has a senior parents but they don't know that they can sign up for cal fresh and they could get an additional fifty dollars that would help them towards their groceries or they might be looking for senior daycare if you will and they they want to make sure that they're their adult. Their parent is taking care of during the day by going someplace we can connect to those resources. We have fabulous new program called to one ride ride so someone has a computer they can just log onto to one right dot. Org or they can call us but it actually taps into all the transportation tation Multi County L. A. Riverside San Bernardino and Orange County that taps into what it will cost if you take a bus awesome what the routes are the train at such right and are there nonprofits who can actually come to you to pick you up or with the Trans. OC Ta with with our bus system if you actually need to have somebody who can take a wheelchair or needs to walk you up to the door a demand response what I think the adult children of those seniors would be glad to know that there's that kind of resource right one of the things things I found when I talked to baby boomers who are part of that Sandwich situation generation is that they they need to know the two one one is across the country so if they have a call from an adult child who has come to rely on them strictly for financial financial support there is a little bit of pushback where you can say why don't you call your local one and see if they can get you connected to some help right right which is a lovely lovely thing to be able to do right and and and Mary my wife Mary in in Riverside at Saint Michael's church in that outreach ministries industry. She's been doing there for seven years. there's a tremendous amount of of helping people to learn that there are many resources for them helping to find jobs helping them to find housing in in tapping into the city of Riverside in this particular case because their their resources there that people who are on the streets may not be aware of it all my I'm wondering that about providing resources which is absolutely necessary important and vital at the same time resources are not enough breath and I'm wondering where that community formation is now when I was growing up back way before the Internet Church was a place of not only providing resources in in in relationships but it was a place of learning how to relate and it was a place where at best the church community would say here are better ways of relating to each other so you can meet some needs out there and I'm wondering where we do that today well especially in a multi generational multigenerational generational diverse cultural yet. We're we're all living in this soup called. Southern California and I'm just wondering thing where does that happen. I have four people where do they. Where do they begin to learn how to support each other. I'm not necessarily in giving rides but they had to incorporate people into community. Well I think there there are some real strong connections that we carry forth with us right or or learning how to do things so you you know. I'm a I'm a a preacher's kid. PK and we moved several times when I was growing up and so from that upbringing one of the things I learned was was how important it was to get to know your neighborhood and my parents really understood that church was always a part of it but my main growing up years it was a campus ministry so it wasn't really there weren't other kids. It's the neighborhood was very important when my husband and I moved back to southern California back back in ninety seven. It was very very important for us to find a neighborhood that functioned as a neighborhood where you knew your neighbors and around the neighborhood we live in is just fabulous. I mean we have people who've lived there for twenty-five thirty years. They raised their children there. We we have grandparents to age. You know people are in their eighties and nineties who lived there. We have young families there. It's it's. It's a really wonderful blunt. We we have people who come from all parts of the world it's very very diverse but we get together every Memorial Day Fourth of July Labor Labor Day and New Year's Eve those that that's a standing thing that we do every single year and we are all there for each other and get together other times loosely sleep in a range type of things but we've come to rely on each other in when someone new moves into the neighboring them into the fold you do something to say. We'll see you and we are here now now. I just got off the phone before I came to the show with a friend of mine who is now living in San Francisco was in Chicago and he was asking me he said you know we're living in San Francisco in living in the tenderloin because that's where the law school is my wife is going to and and he said in Chicago I would carry. Are you around McDonald's. you know ten dollars. McDonald's gets cards and when I saw somebody on the streets I would hand them one in and he said No. I'm here in California in San Francisco and when I tried that the people that I tried tried to looked at me and said. Why are you doing that in and he said I have a heart for these folks and I don't know what to do? Well the the thing that I've so you're saying that the the the person who's on the street doesn't want to receive did not want to receive in in what I'm wondering is in with this this homelessness and he said it's increased by thirty percent in the last two years in San Francisco. I'm wondering wondering if we have in our minds when we lost community to a large extent and you're talking about places where there are is community. I'm wondering if when someone is homeless that they become part of another community separate from US absolutely right now that that is a divide in to me when you know people talk about how we are politically and economically divided. I think we're also socially divided because we begin to say well. They're not one of us because they don't have a mortgage and and so what I'm wondering what he asked me was what do I do and I said the first thing you have to do. Is You have to build relationships absolutely and and absolutely lutely. I won't share a story with you that I've something that has happened a number of times for me. One of the things that you see when people around around homeless folk is that they are fearful and what I say is have a conversation so if there's somebody standing outside my grocery store and I see them there. I will typically stop and I will reach out my hand and say my name is Karen. What's yours the they'll hesitantly. Take Take my hand but give me had given me their name and then I'll say tell me your story what what's going on for you. And how are you here and what I found. That's so incredible bull besides the fact that we can have this dialogue and then I can pro Habsburg provide some direction and information to the individual people coming out of the grocery. I restore will reach into their sack of food will give them something they'll give them money but just by the fact that I'm standing there makes it safer for them to come in. Have that interaction talk about that. what is it that causes us to fear fear the other. That looks is it's the looks unshaven hair messed up clothes not tidy. I think think it's bigger than that. I think that that might be on a very basic level but I think through some bigger fear of I don't know what to do how to help this person and that's the question that I have with with this. What I was talking with my friends. San Francisco is if I believe that I am here to help them. That must mean that they can't help themselves. So for some people there are some people who prefer very few but there there is a small percentage who are not going to want your help or my health right especially. The people who have learned learned to live on the street and they have a community. I mean that's part of the problem you see when people are broken apart and now moved into emergency shelter quick look did along the river trail right way built their communities and it was something that was safe for them. One of the nonprofits here had told me I was was very interested in their direct mail campaign and I said it's so interesting to me that your pieces never show a mother and a child on the outside envelope. When that is who you serve it primarily. You always have a guy and what I was told was that when they have test marketed it when they have a grizzled grizzled old guy on the front of it. Everybody has an uncle the great uncle somebody that they've got somewhere in their families fear that they know like that that they will say okay. I need to donate money because this person needs help but when it shows a mother and a child it scares the people because it could be them. isn't that interesting could be. I thought that was so fascinating sort of there for the grace of God go i. That's it well but to me again. All of the resources that we put toward the other are very important. I just wonder where we develop the relationship that is is probably the most valuable thing about being a human being because if if I don't if if because of trauma or or abuse physical emotional sexual in my childhood I have difficulty relating to other people. How do I get beyond that and in it's the extreme would be mental illness but most of us are living in that range right and I am just wondering what we in this community how we how we welcome people into the community how we show show people how to how to well respect would be one but how to interact with people. I mean just imagine seeing someone who is different is homeless and sometimes has a sign out there saying I you know need need this for my child or for this or AH the other it certainly important to share resources but it seems to me that it's also important to share the respect that one would give another human being to hear their stories and I wonder how often we really do that. I'm going to save for those who are not outreach workers. I would say it's probably fairly rare. I think you can even take it back to how many of us when we're in a retail situation say please and thank you to the person who's serving us. you know I mean it gets to that point it used. I used to be that the interconnection between people with so much stronger and it might be because somebody knew your parents your sister or whatever there was some some kind of familial or neighborly connection but I think that both the the fact everybody's moved along is moving at such a quick pace and have forgotten some just basic relationship components I will also tell you one of the things that's interesting and I and I would I found it very educational for me personally and for our staff a number of years ago when we were doing the point in time count of we actually hired homeless folks not just for the day of the count but we hired them to come in and work in our office US and so they were with us for about four months of of time and these were people who were living in emergency shelter out on the street and what we found was US to me. You could almost see coming into an environment where you you almost like muscle memory. You could see them say okay okay. I've been in a normal place before I can do this but not have the stress on them during the day of figuring out where to get water where to get coffee where to use the bathroom not having to deal with any of that and they were in a safe environment it was incredible and we were able to teach them some office skills you know word excel whatever things that we needed hope with and it was tools that they could take with them and I'm pleased to say several of those folks and not only we're able to get house to permanent housing. Were also able to get jobs. I mean you think about it of the people that we have that are homeless. If we just did a buddy up system what we could do what Mary's experience in Riverside was. She had a dream of taking saint. Michael's Church has a particularly large large I'll has French doors on one side all the way down but it's a large. I'll on one side of the of the Church and her dream. The literally a dream was that there would be long tables all the way through with tablecloths and candles flowers for people to come and have dinner. GonNa Thursday night well. She made that happen. She brought that to be but she said this is not going to be US feeding them. This is going to be them feeding each other and we are part of that them and so she helped him get food handler's licenses she found people people who had who were felons coming out of prison but happened to be cooks and knew how to cook for two hundred people and so after seven years years of that that group functions on their own it is their place in. I just find that so important it's certainly necessary to to hand out all the food that they get tons of food from from all the places in in Riverside from UC Riverside from the school for the deaf. All these places have all this food that they don't know what to do with so they're bringing to Saint Michael's in it gets dispersed in various places all the way from from the high desert to the river bottom to people who just drive up in one food but it's it was never a US just doing it for them and that that to me is is a key issue because we talk about divide. It's not just money yeah. It's a divide about us in them. The other and I'm I'm just wondering how when people have needs how we how we avoid only treating the symptoms and not treating the underlying piece as well right. It's solicit peace right. It's really the the holistic piece. We've found with this point in time out that I was mentioning what we did. Is We brought. We said the same thing everybody counts. It's not US versus them. We're doing this together and they actually helped plan the count they call themselves. The pit crew for the point in time breath breath pit crew and we had t shirts made and of very very engaged and involved It's how you become part of the solution. Everybody becomes part of the solution right which therefore has so much more meaning I one of the one of the pieces of this relationship and ship puzzle was brought home to me by Paula Caplan Paul has a project with with harbored she's a psychologists psychiatrists in and teaches psychiatrists in in what what she wrote a book called when Johnny Jane Come Marching home and it was about ptsd in she and I've come very close in in understanding something that she learned which was very often. PTSD S. D. is is really a separation a divide. I am so different so broken that I cannot function the way that it before and she says the way to deal with a returning soldier. Men and women is to listen to them and and she said here's the protocol. It's not that difficult. You don't have to have a degree to do it. She said what happens very often. When a soldier soldier comes home is someone will say well. What was it like and they will just begin to tell the story in the in the one who asked asked says oh. I don't WanNa hear anymore. That's enough which communicates you are broken. You are different you do not belong in this conversation -sation and she said if we were to each of us when they come home to say to them look I have three five hours. Whatever it takes. I WanNa hear your story from the beginning whatever you will share with me all the way to the end and she you said what would happen what will happen. What does happen is that they'll begin telling the story and someplace along the line they will tell something that is just horrendous horrendous and that's the place for the listener who has been listening all along to say something along the lines of you know if I were in your shoes then I would have done the same thing you're not crazy. She said that's turning point. That's when they are welcomed home she said until we can do that. Drugs won't help housing being won't help a won't help they might bandage the wound but they don't really address it and and I've just found that to be so powerful and that's what I'm looking for is when people are manifesting the the the symptoms of elation the symptoms of don't know how I'm wondering how we as a community and I appreciate the various is two one one communities around the country. But how do we know recognize that these are symptoms. The reality is they're missing community. How do we what do we do to encourage them. Help them to become aware but to recognize you know if I were in your shoes. I'd be doing the same thing you're not crazy. I think that within the veteran population an and and that is a segment if you will at there is a really wonderful program here in Orange County the Orange County community foundation about about five years ago did a study on veterans in terms of demographics and taking a look at Orange County and the outcome come from that other than the report was to start funding some not profits with the goal of having them work together collaboratively and initially and we you were one of the recipients of the grants and the first thing we did is we sublet some of our space to the Voa La Hey I battle bridges program and we wanted to have them located with us so that when we were on the phone we had veterans wants who were on the phone when they knew that they needed to have further help navigating the system for housing or whatever we could give them connect them over to veer away since then the program has got to the point where we're now co located with it's La goodwill zero eight hundred and two one one Orange County were co located at the tyranny center at goodwill and what it's become is this a place for veterans and their families to come and part of that is building that relationship so you can have the face to face so the question gene is is that something then you can go ahead and you know move around really uses as a model for different populations I would say within the outreach workers that are out there working with the homeless community. My guess is that they that there's some of that going on. I know for ourselves. One of the things that we found is sometimes when I say we provide hope to people once they get connected to us. They can one talk talk to us. We're not on and off the phone like we don't have time to talk to you because we're really interested in all the components of what they're going through. We know that food sometimes a or lack of food might be a driving issue for them but for them to know that they can just call and talk to somebody because they've got relatives who who said enough is enough. I can't deal with this anymore. We can talk to us and we're not going to be judgmental. Well that that whole so that whole way of helping people recognize. You're not broken right. I mean that's an incredible step for many people when they look out on any one of a number of situations but just use homelessness they look out on homelessness snus and think that is a problem you know. Mary has just finished up her twenty seven years at California Baptist University in gone onto she is now on the presiding bishop staff of the Fiscal Church as the coordinator for Indigenous Ministry for Coordinator for indigenous digital st logical education in so we were looking she shared with me some of the video coming from the Anglican Church in Canada which is light years ahead of where we are in forty eight in dealing with indigenous populations and one of the things that that one of the elders elders or the native elders said was we are not a problem good for them. We are an opportunity for relationship and and I just wonder if if that's if that's how we could look at more of the issues in the various levels all the way through politics and economics and money and all of these places where there is division. I'm just wondering if we could see that is not a problem to be solved but more of more of relationship to be discovered. Oh I I agree with you. I mean I think if you look at Society for us and I'm a baby boomer. We have been in an environment that has not been a manufacturing farming environment. We haven't been making things what we've been doing. Consuming things I mean even and after nine eleven happened I wanna do something pro by by right. I mean and so that piece piece of it. I think really helped break apart. You know some of the relationship piece. We no longer working to solve a problem together. We were no a longer working to plant crops and you know bring food market which are all things you can't do alone things that you you can't do alone can consume alone. You can consume alone. That's exactly right and Oh don't we have a lot of people consuming alone right which is part of the problem so now now. I think we're into the second and third generations now. You've got parents who who don't know how to have a relationship who are raising children so they don't know how to have relationship and they're having children right so you have that ongoing piece that continues on. I even think that I we had a niece. come out to California about twenty years ago to live with us. She wanted to go to school down in San Diego. Oh and it was so interesting. She was eighteen and for ten years of her life. The TV show friends was on and I really was struck by how that was her reality whereas when I was a child what was on was Rawhide Bonanza things things that you knew this isn't real. This is fantasy land right and leave it to beaver. Leave it to beaver in you know the model for leave it to beaver was was nineteenth street in Costa Mesa really hits where the houses that they used for the Mar- the model auto but somewhere but somewhere in there it was a sense of it. That's not necessarily a real world was a real you know and you can talk about teamwork and all that kind of stuff that goes on in some of those subplots but the point being was that her growing up here is from eight eighteen was about about a bunch of people who sat around in an apartment together right and and it it it was so her expectations of what life life should be when you got an apartment was so different than mine. I've it's kind of akin to when we were growing up. You didn't have targets around right so when you were getting ready to go to college or have your first department you went to yard sales right so we we interacted with each other. He bought pots pans for twenty five cents right and now mom and dad go off to target and buy you everything that you need to bring so there's there's something there that has really probably have dropped shipped probably now even even more so so. I mean and there's some there's pluses and minuses to everything but I do think that we are at the end. Hopefully hopefully at turning point where we're saying gee. There are a lot of things that have not happened the that. We've made some shifts and we need to get back to the relationship. I also think part of it for yourself myself years obviously with your your career background for myself. Just say say more age you grow up and you start realizing that that just barreling ahead. You need to step back and say wait a second. What are we're here for and one of the Scary Asleep Sa- faith I do think for people is to all of a sudden stop and say Oh worldly possessions are not everything because that's what we're told we have commercials where you're tying cars with bows for Christmas the one who dies with the most toys as winds right right so when you get to the point of saying I can't take it with me. Does it really matter as long as I have have a roof over my head and food to eat can take care of my so. You've got all those but do I really need all this excess and then what does that mean and then to see how people react but that that to me is a way of getting rid of things but it's what do I really need. And what do they really need. Sharing is relationship right in one of the things that when we ahead Nicole Sudi among from from goodwill was one of her hopes was to have you and several other people on one show where we could all talk about how not how do we coordinate our services but what are the issues that we see out there and we talked about relationship so just just getting that kind of conversation going so you be willing to come back and lay so weakened schedule out with her in in and just get together and have a conversation conversation about what does it mean to build a community What does it mean to welcome people into relationship. What does it mean and that's what I told the my friend from San Francisco. I said he said what can I do and I said well what I would suggests that you do is that you greet them as a neighbor and you ask them if you could sit down and have some coffee with them and you might tell them that you know you you really have no idea what their life is like and you want to know and I said you may have people who who scowl at you and say I don't want that and but if you keep looking you will find people and as you begin doing that you you will learn a lot about who they are what they are what they want not necessarily what they need because that would be your he goes getting involved but just to listen and build a relationship because like it or not that tent on the street housing a homeless person. Is your neighbor absolutely absolutely i. I also think if there's a silver lining in all of this. I think that there are plenty of people who would be willing to participate in this. It's showing a road. It's it's it's kind of taking the road bat and figuring out what that is and what does this mean and having something that other people can do as well. You know some of the little keys like you were saying with Mary with her church that it wasn't about us serving them but it's all of us in this together. Make such a difference. Let's maybe we could take the Good Samaritan parable in simply change the characters from Good Samaritan to the homeless person absolutely absolutely absolutely I had a very interesting situation a couple of years ago where I was doing the watch on a Monday Thursday Good Friday at it might church and I had I don't know the five o'clock stint and when I came in there were two women who were there who are coming off their our and there there was a homeless couple asleep in the pews and so they were wondering if I'd be okay by myself and I said I'll be fine and I ended up staying a couple of of shifts and then when they awoke I talked to them same thing. It's building that relationship found found out their story was what was going on and then ended up taking them to place they needed. The only thing that I did was judgmental at all with them as I said I know you're probably not gonNA listen to let me about this but it's a quit smoking. I used to smoke and it's the stupidest thing I've ever done in my life that I know I sound like your mother but I'm just telling you but but but with that it's it's that it's at sense of once again. It's it's building that relationship. I hope that for our organization if we are able able to help people at all it's it's for them to understand. They can come to us to help find find their way right. It's it's to be able to provide some of that navigation and just to know that there are the we've got so many wonderful the resources in the community but I do think that the relation piece is the key yeah well. Thank you for taking your time to be with us. It's been a wonderful awful conversation and I look forward to having you back with. Nicole and other other leaders like yourself in the community. Nibbling cracked the code on this well. It'd be great. Take some steps. So what would you like to say to the community. Who's going to be listening to this. I would say that we are available people to you. As a resource twenty four seven three sixty five days a week were multi-lingual. You can also find us on the web at two one one one. Oh seat dot org and you can actually self navigate if you want to find resources. You don't necessarily need to talk to us but we're they're willing to help help and know that out there in this community there is somebody out there who can provide you the help and and hope that you need for either yourself or a loved one our we're here rate. It's wonderful so glad that you could be with us today. Karen and this is one other example of how people from top to the bottom autumn from the east to the west North South in California. Learn to thrive thank you you've been listening to the pilgrim on the four zero five with will Chris to hear more of the programs in this podcast good at. WWW DOT will Chris dot call. 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