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Designing Buildings For A Healthy Environment


I'm joined by Mike. Brown energy systems design engineering and host of the three P. Theory podcast. Thank you so much for joining me thank you. I'm glad to be here. Sounds awesome. Where are you taking this call from actually in Dallas Right now Dallas Texas a little bit colder than I would expect but what's to be in the Twenties Fahrenheit? Wow later this week. So is that normal not really. I mean it's it's kind of sporadic and you are in January and February into March. So hopefully should be done with most of that. Hey Pretty Soon Oh man. I did not realize it gets that cold in Texas. That is a cold. Wow I'm based in London. We twenty degrees Fahrenheit is. That's very rare. That doesn't happen very often so I'm surprised but one thing as as reading about The work that you do as an energy engineer I just came across this interesting statistic that fifty four percent of all people on Earth live in cities So more than half and the UN is projecting that by twenty fifty. It'll be sixty six percent. That's like a big sizeable chunk and city is the way I picture them There's it's basically just a bunch of buildings everywhere And so that's a big part of what you do. Really as an energy energy engineer understand right you focus on building. Is that correct? Yeah And they may not necessarily all be in space per se but Obviously a lot of the new developments that are coming online or even retrofits of existing buildings to happen You predominantly and urban areas. Yeah or even just growing cities that are are going to become more organized. That's cool so what exactly is an energy engineer. I mean it sounds kind of like something that Superhero might deal you. Engineer Energy cool so I guess just for clarification so I'm not necessarily doing Design okay per se however In the context of as you would say maybe a high level general terms of being an energy engineer is Africa. Someone that focuses on the energy aspects It could be buildings it could be You know other aspects within Other industries that are related to energy specifically for me It is buildings and really a lot of what we do is energy analysis and analysis for buildings to evaluate how much they're gonNA consume Prior to them actually being built And finding ways to optimize Through collaboration on architecture side the contracting side and even with the VP engineers and mechanical electrical lighting and plumbing side of things as well For Different Systems Alternatives. And how we can really elevate the design of that particular building that only from an aesthetic standpoint but also from a functional performance standpoint. How do you How can you predict how much energy and water is going to be based on like the people inside? Yes so you know people do have this question and they they kind of wonder you know you have this magic globe or something that you can predict I wish it were that easy to be honest How however there are various standards that are in place states have Ashra and even icy? C. For National Energy. I'm sorry International Energy Conservation Code to set standards for what assumptions can be made for buildings whether it'd be occupancy through schedules In always use that as a starting point or a baseline if you will And then as the design progresses we start to infuse that information But again as you kind of alluded to it. A building occupancy and fluctuations in occupancy even knowing the building type Fish just GONNA be office or just GonNa be you know. Hotel varies quite widely. Compared to what assumptions are Which is probably one of the greatest vary abilities within energy modeling is scheduling an occupancy. Just thinking so that would be like if you would assume that a building is maybe eighty percent fall but it's actually only fifty percent flirts at capacity and so you kind of have to like is it. Is it like you have to take a range saying? I think that it's going to be using this much energy based on some sort of level of a I guess like plus minus certain presides or something from occupies occupancy standpoint so we know what the amount in this is defined by the Building Co. with the peak amount of individuals are going to be in the building or the visitors fulltime occupants. And from there we use a trait profiles That are typical. Ashtray defines along with other standards. Define what that is is that you're taking basically a percentage of the peak for every hour of the day. So think about maybe a typical you know multifamily project you have a much higher Peak occupancy in the morning when people. They're getting ready for work. Can you believe that it's GonNa taper off during the midday and until they come back home from work then it's GonNa go back up again and so similarly the HVAC lighting and even service hot water heating kind of followed that similar profile. The and they're just percentages of that peak. So for instance. If you say that you know for lighting power density or lighting design for Interior space has a maximum power. We turn all the lights of this number you know at that particular hour assuming a certain percentage abet peak power. I say well. That's that's pretty quiet. Sounds very low mathematical calculations and things. That's cool so I guess part of what you're doing is Because I read the term high performance buildings so does that that takes into account basically how this energy is being used. Or what exactly is a high performance building? Sure so. I'm glad you use the word high-performance building as opposed to green building. Okay Some would say those are synonymous and and and to some degree. They are High-performance building really. Compasses a lot more than just energy and water efficiency. Hillary we're gonNA talk about By affiliate and things that relate to the occupant comfort in things that nature But it includes things like delighting and how the quality of delighting in access today leading you have in the space along with things like air quality so and so forth but really and there's a definition here that I've kind of developed Discount a compilation of things is really being able to optimize have integration for all the systems and the building so that it performs a high level of comfort but also at a low environmental impact And so you. You basically have to look at the macro and the micro when you're trying to evaluate a building And the systems that are involved with that And so really ultimately. If you do that correctly he'll be able to achieve operational savings and then maximize on those tenants. Those occupants that are going to be in that space in terms of how will they? They have the occupant experience. Yeah so what's what's the white. Why don't you like the term green buildings? Or what's the why? Are you glad I said high-performance I think in some ways there are some negative connotation or there are some some silo ing of certain aspects of of the building like I mentioned before so only focusing on energy and things that nature and you know until the more recent Are In more. Recent years has been kind of the focus until now there's been a shift to look at more of those I don't WanNa say soft aspects of design but they do have a quantifiable impact on the occupants of the building and the building itself in that can be rolled into even the building valuation. When you're looking at it from a real estate standpoint and how much they could potentially resell that building. Four by those aspects And then even from a from a tenant retention standpoint As well if we're talking about an office building our building that a retail building tenants and in having those stakeholders be in that space long-term because of some of those benefits I gotcha so green buildings. Basically typically just focus on one or two things like how. Well I guess retains heat or cool inside the building so meaning like you're going to have to use less electricity to heat and cool the building whereas a high performance building would take into account basically everything inside including how comfortable people are and how happy they are to be inside the building Basically it's like it's almost geometrical growth. In all areas it's it's performing at peak rather than just like being electric really good at using electricity. And I and I would say to use those same words in the same definition or okay but I think the perception of green building I say is is what you mentioned earlier so that's why pipe performance has been become one more of the the terms that are used in the industry just to Kinda have holistic standpoint of silly very cool. So what is Because I know that your your lead. Certified elite accredited story. Leed accredited. I've seen this before and I know that there's different tiers accreditation because that's basically lead is essentially. How sustainable environmentally sustainable building is like. That's like the most basic definition. Basically mean what is what actually is lead. Because I'm in that's about the in depth of my knowledge of its how because I've seen some lead buildings that are like platinum certified an and I think that's the highest you can go. So what exactly is lead So lead is leadership in energy and environmental design right and so this was a certification rating system that was developed By you should be Around different aspects that would qualify building as high performing or sustainable or again in a way that it can be more or less quantifiable and there's different sections so there's one on transportation linkages sustainable sites water efficiency energy efficiency indoor environmental quality materials and resources. And then there's also a innovations section as well so for doing things that are above and beyond can actually be rewarded for that. That's cool on. Yeah and so within that rating system like most bidding systems. There's point three to those. And if you're able to claim those points they all add up to the levels For their certified silver gold or platinum for lead. That's cool so and then the points who. Who was those points I mean? How did the so you I'm guessing there's someone that comes by from the lead counsel takes so yeah it is a third party verified Rating system. Yeah and I think that's why the adoption at least in recent years has been Has Been so well and his grown so much just because you do have a third party that is reviewing your design to make sure that those attributes are included But at a very high level what happens. Is The design team for that particular project? This is inclusive architecture. Mechanical Electrical Plumbing Landscape civil even structural in some cases To make sure that the calculations and documentation Is there claiming those credits? And all that information is sent off to For Review and you know once they review comes back there may be comments that you have to address and you met the resubmission or which I haven't seen it yet You get all your points the first time around and you don't have to any Recent medals but users different interpretations. Yeah yes because What's been really great about lead In recent years is that it's moved away from just being exclusive to office buildings and facilities and that's originally where it started to encompass other building types like hospitality hotels multifamily retail even data centers And warehouses things that nature That would be That more or less tweak. Some of the credits. Data are more in alignment with that particular building type So for instance one of the ones that I come across pretty pretty frequently on healthcare projects For projects are assuming the daylight and credit before they made the the for health care Along with some of the addendums or changes in the language For daylight ain't it included all of the course spaces as well in terms of counting against you because you didn't have access to daylight however in the new version. They only account for the perimeter rooms or spaces which makes sense because toby major. What would be an example of that? I think we're about to get get into that. He had Typically by nature Hospitals have a pretty deep floor plate Just the the floor area of the floor okay. for each of the levels. Or whether it's you know ten story bid tower or maybe if it's a two story Healthcare facility those floor plates or the depth from one side of the building to the other side of the building are pretty drastic. And so you can only get so much daylight into the space even if you would. Have you know floor to ceiling? Glass thing for him. Yeah and so by Nature. The rating system identified that as a means say. Hey will you know? These products aren't able to achieve this in any scenario just based on typical programming for healthcare facility in the way operations work in the way the design is in so they tweaked that particular credit to allow for just focusing on the perimeter areas. Where it makes sense that you would have windows anyway to see if you're able to achieve the quality that's needed got so you're saying I get it because I'm before it was like the daylight needed against the center of the of the building or the floor plate and in some buildings that's just not possible and so they're they're being adjusted so it's actually it makes sense for like a hospital verse Am Versus Office Building. Where you'd want daylight everywhere? So what what does it mean that your lead? Accredited them so with that And so for me in particular is for new construction or NC Beady plessey which is for building design and construction and They just means that. When I took the certification exam it's particularly focused on that rating system For my particular knowledge base. That's not saying that I'm not aware of the requirements and some of the language around other rating systems within lead whether they be for commercial interiors or like I mentioned before for healthcare hospitality so and so forth. It's really you know the people that have those designations for those Different sorry rating systems. Just shows you that. They're more privy and are super experts in that area and up until recently they still have this in. The newer version is for the people that have accreditation. You can actually claim a point on your In your in your submission for the rating system if you have a lead professional on the project Cool so for instance. If you didn't have one that would be one less point that you could achieve for the rating system so maybe in some in some projects that could get you from like silver to gold. Just that point it. Could we try not to be that close on the line was like to have a a couple of buffer points? Just because you're not sure what's going to happen in the review process? We may lose you know two or even three in some cases To have that buffer makes sense so with with your leader credit accreditation. Basically what you're able to do is to design the way that and correct me if I'm wrong but designed the way that energy is used within a building that would fall within LEED standards I would say from a design standpoint. We Start Designing. But we are facilitators of design and so or received misalignment that is not necessarily meeting the requirement based on the language of that particular credit that they're trying to pursue Then that's when we step up and say well. Hey we need to redesign this or maybe we decided not to go for that credited. Go for something. That's more cost. Effective are economical for the project because for projects that are really trying to achieve higher levels of certification which is typically a gold and beyond I would say for the majority of of the areas that have more recent energy codes here locally are probably going to automatically hit certified if not silver and some cases. Okay just based on energy code and somewhat based on location as well. So you know if you were to you know. Pick up one of these buildings here downtown and drop somewhere out in the middle of nowhere and it will be a challenge for it to to get their certification there because a lot of the location transportation and sustainable sites credits are hinged on the location of the facility so what what that does is it. Promotes developers owners and builders to design in areas that promote walkability That promotes connection to other diverse uses services so that it minimizes the need for for cars and things that nature so you can use alternative transportation. Essentially that's cool. That's interesting that they actually factor in how you get to the building into the into the accreditation or into the certification. I didn't really consider that part at all but it I mean it does make sense because if you're looking at it from an environmental standpoint you'd want to be able to get the building without needing to drive or have any sort of environmental impact really to Let's get another one. I'll bring up which you may have heard of in. There was a lot of skepticism around it. Prior to them making the change with the the more recent version of lead is with the bike. Rack Credit No. I haven't So there is a credit In before it was In this stable sites section where basically? You could get a point for just putting bike racks out in front of the building. Based on the number of occupants our percentage of occupancy have for the building I said so the problem with that is if you have say maybe even if it's a manufacturing facility which for one more than likely those people aren't going to be biking to work but manufacturing city or manufacturing facilities by nature are probably not going to be in the city centre They're gonNa House district somewhere else where he forgot to drive and then also with that In the newer version. What they've done so people can't just it's it's it would basically the Freebie before but now people can't do that because that only do you have to have the the quantity of bike rex out front but you also have to have which this was in the old version. showers as well so from people when they traveled to the site. They're sweaty. They have an opportunity at least to try and take a shower or wash themselves up What they added in the new version is in addition to those two things. You also have to be located near a bicycle network Okay so you basically has to have a bike path or network near your building freed even claim that so in rural America. Highly Unlikely that you'll have a bike network out there like that so it made it much more challenging for those people to get that credit. Which for the intent it makes sense. So that's a clever way of doing it to be connected to bike network. I'm not sure if I would have thought of that. That's that's such a straightforward and obvious. Like you have to be next to a place where it's easy to buy in order to be able to claim a bike credit. Not Really Fair. Like I'm just GONNA put some bike racks in the back or no one can see them. They're out of the way and get a point for that beyond my way You mentioned earlier The term and I know we of touched on this bef- before we were talking Earlier but what is h because I've seen it That term before and I've never really understood what it means but it seems like it's an important part of what you do. Yeah I would I would say so So H back. That's essentially heating ventilation and air conditioning So it took. Us focuses primarily on the mechanical systems of the building. So how are you getting into to the space also hard you heating and cooling the space Whether that's through Elektra Natural Gas Fossil fuels things that nature and the types of strategies For the different system types that are using the building so typically for certain buildings in an ashtray standards and ICC standards they have definitions what typical H. systems are US based on the building square footage and also based on the number of floors. And so you can always use that as a starting point. But then on top of that there's an efficiency threshold that needs to be met for any of those systems types and so when we talk about ways to optimize or enhance the building performance That is a means of doing that by choosing a more efficient system type and or Efficiency for that system Because even if you were to look at maybe chillers whether it be water cooled air cool. There's a range of efficiencies and typically based on the tonnage or cooling capacity that's required for the building So it's really important Very early on to just understand. Not only what's applicable for that particular building But also from a programming standpoint. What makes sense because often times when those systems are being compared in this is really goes the same for a lot of energy conservation measures. Is that when? You're trying to compare apples to apples now for one system over another one strategy over another people tint always look at it from one side. It's one-sided standpoint so I'll give you an example of that so even in a scenario where you're looking at comparing to H back system types. Obviously one of the Opportunities would be able to save operationally on energy costs yet. Another Thing which again that's why so important to look at the synergies amongst different strategies is looking at what the peak cooling capacity could be for the facility as well there's going to dictate the sizing of that system. How much h closet space? It's going to take up compared to the other system Especially for Smaller buildings or that may be the May have other buildings overlooking them is understanding. Okay well what we want our roof to look like we're trying to do a terrorist up there. Is it okay to put mechanical company up there in for to be Kinda clicked not cluttered? But you know taking up. That roof space Sometimes okay sometimes. It's not so evaluating that And then also looking at you know from a maintenance standpoint. The maintenance costs associated with that particular system versus the other in. I'm going to get into like the comfort. But that's a whole nother realm where peace to look at too and your valuated that especially when you're looking at different Glazing system types for the envelope or even installation for that matter because that drives all of those numbers wow and said I mean the more so I guess a big part of what's really interesting about building efficiency. I think this is a currency as you're speaking. Is that the more efficient. The building is which is good for the environment but it ends up actually saving money as well because the less you need to heat and cool the building. You're you're mentioning the glazing the installation the the more effective that the that those are The lesson you to turn on the heating and air conditioning so it's like You don't you end up spending less money and use use less energy exactly so you have some first savings the operational savings as well so cool. That's that's one thing. I really love about sustainability and everything I'm learning about. It is the fact that the more what I'm seeing as a trend is like the more sustainable. You are from an environmental standpoint. The more you actually end up being financially sustainable as well. It's like oh you. Oftentimes they really go hand in hand and it's like pretty direct to I mean it's like we're saying here you use less energy good for the entire environment good for the bottom line because you end up spending less right. It makes it really obvious choice. Yeah the one thing I would point out about. That is that You know oftentimes in certain regions And I'm speaking more specifically till the United States where say maybe energy as cheap or waters cheap exit a little bit harder to make that sell however all that means is you have to craft or Taylor the message a different way. So as opposed to maybe focusing on operational side if you could focus on the The Front End Cost Savings. If that's a a concern for that particular developer to try and build for the least cost kind of thing But then also when you look at it. From an occupant standpoint who's going to be occupying that space is a value added to them and so how how you tailor the conversation of how do we extract? That value is going to be critical. Remember that building on our manager is yeah. That's a good point so on that About the the well being and the health of occupants. Because that's I mean buildings really do at least from my understanding. They can really impact human health right. And so that's that's a really big part of the consideration. What what are some of the things that like? How how can buildings impacts human health so You kind of alluded to it So we do spend a huge amount of time are huge amount of our time in buildings. Yeah based on the statistics about ninety percent of our time that we spend In our lifetime indoors whether that's at work or at home retail stores so on so forth cars Kim indoors I I think so. Let's go back and look at that now. I had a feeling that you would say that. But you're right because that's a significant portion of people are commuting. Long our to our I've that's that adds up to twelfth night. Potentially two hours the car for sure. That's a lot so now. I'm Sorry Co Author Ninety Percent Indoors yes so ninety percent indoors and you know I I can send the graphic to you after the call but If we look at all the things that impact our health typically people always focused on you know exercising and they focus on Maybe in genetics and things that nature but the largest portion that really impacts your health is your environment so that's indoor outdoor environment It's over fifty percent so you know if you did all you could do. From an exercise standpoint yeah good genetics. The largest percentage of the pie that impacts your overall. Well being in your ability for wellbeing is your environment in so with that ideology. The intent is that from a design standpoint whether it's for renovation. Or even for a new construction project. We focused on the elements like bio feely like air quality like water quality or even access to to to clean water Even in the developed country for the interior space is to really maximize so that you can bring out the greatest productivity of those individuals in that space and so they feel better as well a lot of people kind of discount the long term effects of poor air quality inside buildings You know how ventilation in Ashtray. Sixty two point one and things that nature came about is sick Building Syndrome. So there wasn't enough fresh air being brought into the building and so people were getting Sick and so that's what they start. Introducing standards for minimum levels of outside air to be able to dilute the space all of the chemicals. You know Things that nature. Co Two in the space as well By just breathing young and and so with that is being able to to be mindful of my design standpoint of how can we maximize? All those different areas. Even lighting for instance is another category. That people often Discount from an aesthetic point you know there's various ways you can designed to have great lighting Different color rain rendering indexes and things that nature but one of the things at starting to emerge now is Circadian Lighting Design which sent essentially kind of mimics the circadian rhythm of natural flow or state as be perceived light and then also As our body response to that so naturally as the sun goes up send goes down in a normal state without artificial light. Your body decreases or increases Melatonin. So they know what time it was time it is to sleep the time it is to wake up so and so forth which also impacts other biological functions as well but being able to design lighting indoors at somewhat mimics that so that people are are healthier and more productive as well as crazy. How do you how do you I mean how do you imitate that or how do you? How do you get close to even mimicking so? Yeah so technology. Now especially with the emergence of led lighting has allowed Lighting Manufacturers to create fixtures. That are more or less tuna bill To be able to go from that warmer color. Do you know the colder color To be able to have that variation in the light And so oftentimes. This is really really beneficial to people. Were nightshift workers. Yeah at the exact opposite of what they need to be consuming from a a natural daylight standpoint. And so that's why you hear about you. Know those individuals having poor sleep quality and things that nature Not to mention just normal for quality and productivity being decreases well But also that coupled with air quality increases your chance for heart disease as well and other elements so again this a lot of these things and I think that's why it's been Paying more attention to it now because there's been a lot more studies that have been done to validate some of this. Because it's something that happens over. Time is not necessarily something that okay. If I'm in this poor space now I'm gonNA feel it before the end of the week in some cases that if it's extreme that could be the case but it's It's kind of the chronic Development of those are of being in those poor quality spaces that starts to develop those risk factors. And it's amazing to because it's like I mean for someone like me were I mean you can obviously tell him not an expert even remotely close to anything related to buildings. I would never be able to tell by walking into space whether or not it's good for my health. I mean you know I can walk in and if it smells really damp and it's like wow this is but you know like that has to be a really bad but if you know going into an office building. I'm just thinking I kind of headache care. But maybe it's just not enough coffee and That's just the way it is Wednesday kind of a thing or Tuesday and it's like the long-term effects like you're saying I'd never actually think. Well maybe it's because not enough airflow quality in here not enough not enough proper lighting or the lighting's too intense and you know all of these things. You really need an expert. Someone who really understands to be able to discern whether or not spaces healthier not. Yeah definitely I mean in with the well building standard which is just an option that people can pursue the kind of lays out the intent of those particular strategies and it kind of put some quantifiable metrics to it. can really help designers build a develop a space that encompasses a away to optimize that various strategies that you can do to achieve the the the intent of the goal of the the feature of the credit A lot of times people like I mentioned before they discounted because it's not. It's something that is hard to quantify in practice even after the space is built out from a long-term standpoint out typically for projects that are pursuing that particular certification. They have people come in. They do testing with meters nature to make sure that your teaming those levels but again if you don't have the policies in place with beef from a maintenance standpoint or purchasing policy standpoint to make sure that that's continued than like any other building that's built to high performance standards does not maintain it's going to degrade over time And so I think in the near future that's going to be more and more important. That buildings have that capability especially from just a A monitoring standpoint if you if you're able to see on the wall display that showed the co two level VOC's particular matter Chemicals things nature that are in this space. You'd be more mindful and that would also put more ability on the facilities manager or the owner of the building as well right. Yeah totally. So yeah. It's like I think the only monitor that I've seen I mean you know going into like a story. Rican by wear store is basically like a carbon monoxide alarm. Words like Arvin. Monoxide gets to an outrageous number. Then I'll go off but otherwise I have no idea what my air quality is like an thankfully I've never had the alarm. Go off so you know in my mind. I live in a healthy. The quality of the quality of air in the space. I live in his healthy. 'cause carbon monoxide alarm has gone off of what you're saying is there a bunch of other things? Sounds like that That are concerned. Yeah exactly there's was a little thing that's like Your bit above average like that's not really good. I mean the first thing they do is like go knocking on someone's sore. Excuse me why is? Why is that number higher than it should be now? I don't want that fix that Also all of these things let you to Starting your own podcast. And that's the three P. Theory podcast The first question actually I wanted to know which is a little bit less about the podcast more about the name. What is three peat us? Open Three P. came about because with sustainability for to really work You really need to be able to bridge the gaps and Use the collective Strategies on the profits. I'd the people side and also the planet side or environmental side comes to it really anything designed related whether it's you know manufacturing or fashion industry related his bringing all those together I would say equally but I know that may not always the case of a as a part of the part of the stakeholders for developing that project or developing that initiative. That's so yes. Oh Three P. came out of that. Yeah that makes sense. I haven't heard of the profit people planet but it makes a lot of sense and something that I feel like. I've been alluding to and trying to sort of described. You know you need profit such such an important part of of this whole thing and I think it's easy to think. Well we should be a little bit more idealistic but ultimately I mean the way our culture is designed like money is important and it's consideration so may as well work towards that and that's kind of what we were talking about earlier about leading with the financial benefits of being environmentally sustainable. So what are the things people? Don't talk about as well. This is kind of leaning on the environmental side Is You know what are the? What is what is the owner. Or what is the facilities liability or risk that they're putting themselves and by doing what they're doing now And how that will impact them in the future So for instance on some projects we even do Future climate weather files to see how building perform twenty five years from now fifty years from now one hundred years from now considering the projections of climate change and all the other factors and so then we can kind of build some resiliency into the building. for more long-term because ultimately buildings are are meant to last for a long time right and so being able to minimize the risk and more or less protect that investment for the honor. Our you sell it off to someone else. Yeah I think that makes a lot of sense. It reminds me of You see when there is that massive hurricane in Florida that one building that was hurricane proof category for whatever it was hurricane proof and like there's the photo everything everything else is completely flat and the only thing that happens. This buildings like one little part of it sorta like broke off but otherwise it was perfect. That's I mean that's the kind of stuff I guess that you can. You can help with no definitely especially in areas like that were insurance is already pretty. So yeah keeping that aligned. So one question. I love to ask just kind of as an inspiration is what what do you do like personally on a day-to-day basis aside from all the work that you're doing to be environmentally friendly like knowing you're at home or at work one of the things. I do pretty frequently is is recycle and it's interesting because the apartment complex I live They don't necessarily do recycling 'cause some project or projects have built in to F. separate recycling And so I take it up on my my par- my duty to be able to recycle paper You know any kind of Cans and things of that nature and so That's kind of on a day to day. That's what I do really pretty regularly When I can and when I remember When I go to the grocery store a really when I go like the convenience store if I go to get a takeout food. I don't I don't take a bag a plastic bag. I just carry it in my hands. Yeah I can remember 'cause I mean you'd be surprised. Sometimes you go to the convenience store and you get a candy bar on a soda and they say oh You. WanNa bag like no. I don't need a bag with us to items. So yeah I mean obviously being just doing my part knowing that it's just a small a small drop in the bucket that over time and then obviously with the collective as we educate others to do the same Can have a big impact absolutely. I think that's the important thing to remember. Really is that You know it's little little done every day. The add up and if everyone's doing it then it does really make a big difference In the end only one thing I'm learning and hearing about from many other people have been talking to is that you know it's really important just to do what you can and not like get frustrated by trying to be perfect. It's really easy to get paralyzed by perfection in this space. Yeah for sure and because when you start looking around it's like you just get overwhelmed and so you just do a little bit at a time. Yeah so that's good to hear recycling great And I'm conscious of time here. So where can people learn more about your work and And listened to your podcast so on Instagram They can find me at M. Charles Junior also on Lincoln and twitter as well as M. Charles Junior so with repeat theory we also have our website at www dot DP theory dot com. We can see all the episodes and there's other content from all of our our our guests. It's awesome with other podcasters. Who are who are speaking with Professionals in the kind of sustainability and environment environmental space so Thank you very much for for taking the time I lovely to speak with the really interesting to hear about what can be done with buildings to make them more high-performance awesome glad to be poor to Catching up with his own. Yeah thanks very much. Thank you very much for listening to this episode. If you enjoyed gives us a five star rating and also? Please subscribe whether on your podcast APP for on Youtube. That way you can be I know about new episodes. Thank you very much and talk to you soon.

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