S1 E6: The Defence
This is a CBC podcast. Discover what millions around the world already have. Audible has Canada's largest library of audiobooks including exclusive content curated by and four Canadians experienced books in a whole new way were stories are brought to life by powerful performances from renowned actors. And narrators with the free audible app, you can listen anytime anywhere, whether you're at home in the car or out on a jog. The first thirty days of the audible membership or free, including a free book go to WWW dot audible dot CA, slash CBC to learn more. Hey, listeners Josh balk here before we get into this episode of escaping, Nexium, I wanna tell you, but another investigative podcast, I think you might like in the dark from American public media in its first season in the dark, earned a Peabody for its in depth examination of the Jacob wetland kidnapping in season two. They're looking at the story of Curtis flowers, a black man death row in Mississippi who spent the past twenty one years fighting for his life and a white prosecutor who spent the same time trying to execute him. You can listen to both seasons of in the dark wherever you get your podcasts. Data start off by introducing yourself. What's your name and your role in this specific case? Sure. My name's Mark Agnello. I'm the lead attorney for key through neary. I've been a lawyer for twenty years. My practices based in Manhattan, but this is a case out of Brooklyn. It's giggled to go to trial this coming January. Can I ask you why you agreed to do this interview. I just thought that that it's very easy in matters like this to have everyone talking about one viewpoint and not another viewpoint. I mean, I think that you know, the government's viewpoint is very clear. I think it's errands and I think it's not the whole picture, but it's very clear that this is essentially a sex cult and that there's sex trafficking. And my concern in matters like this is that there is another viewpoint. I'm Josh balk. This is escaping Nexium from CBC podcasts, uncover. Chapter six, the defense. Since the start of this investigation. My questions for Keith have been piling up. I've wanted to hear his perspective on all kinds of things. What does he think of the allegation that he's the head of a call? Was he running dos or wasn't he but was dos four. And why did membership involve branding his initials on the women who joined the problem was reaching him or anyone from his inner circle. My producer, Anita tried to contact Keith boxes, full and cannot accept any messages at this time. Goodbye. The voice mail on his personal cell phone didn't take messages. Emails were never answered. She tried Allison Mack pay Alison cellphone. We've message and I'll get back to soon as I can have a beautiful day, Nancy, Lawrence halls. He could get a hold of being the hurry the best way to send a text or Clare Bronfman and others close to Keith. Hello. This is a message for Karen on terrain, her she left voice mails and emails, techs, and even sent a courier doing if you could please give me a call back as soon as we went to park where Keith his clan lift most of them weren't there or wouldn't talk to us. Hi. Yeah, I'm here. Is this the executive success program. It turned out we weren't the only people trying to find Keith, and we began with an update on a Daily Mail TV exclusive next leader arrested. He was arrested in Florida, Vallarta Mexico. After a month-long search by the FBI he was founded a ten thousand dollars a week, luxury in March. Two thousand eighteen. Keith was arrested in Mexico. He was staying with several members of his hair. Say he used his power to create a master slave rain in Brooklyn. We will, of course be following this very closely and bring you the FBI shipped him back to New York to face charges of sex trafficking and forced labor. I called Sarah the next morning. Hello. The thing and they. And they were. My pick. Interface did, and I woke up at eight and I woke up sex like outta bed after that next seem to fall apart faster than you can say. Executive success program got a text message that Nancy's house in knocked would've been rated as we speak right now, the FBI rating he's home. Within a couple of weeks. Allison, Mack was arrested and also charged with sex trafficking and forced labor. Did it's crazy how fast this is unraveling reveling, so fucking fat. And then in the middle of the work day, at the end of July, we learned about more arrests, four more people have been arrested in connection to the alleged sex Colt Nexium, including heiress to the Seagram liquor, Clare Bronfman, Nancy, -ment, Kennedy, harboring of aliens for financial gain, extortion, forced labor, sex trafficking money laundering, wire fraud and structure of Justice. Every like this is taking up to picking up another level Nancy's daughter. Lauren is also arrested core, Sarah's former best friend who officiated at her wedding who brought Sarah into dos led. The branding ceremony, I, I'm guessing all the people arrested, the one that. That you you were closest with. Weird, mixture feelings, Josh. It's like. You know. Vindication and and sadness, all rolled into one like I feel badly for her. Yeah, I think he deserves it. Yes. Along with Keith Ellison, MAC, they're all accused of racketeering conspiracy the all plead not guilty and like this, and it doesn't feel crazier. Now it's like this arrested, Claire, and Lawrence. It's huge. As the f. b. i. digs deeper into Nexium. It seems less and less likely that we hear from anyone inside. Can I help you high tech to speak with Mark flow please? But then Anita gets through his lawyer. Mark. Ignificant I haven't let Keith speak to anybody. I'm happy to speak to you on Keith's behalf as his lawyer, and I can, you know, I can speak to fairly openly, you know? I, I can't imagine. You'd asked me a question that I wouldn't answer that. I couldn't answer. Okay. All right. They give question that I wouldn't answer. I mean, I don't know. He speaks to me at the beginning of August from our studio in Manhattan. Can you tell me about what? What? What was the last time that you saw? Keith? I saw Keith on Friday. I'm probably seeing again later today. I see him about four times a week. He's in a maximum security facility in Brooklyn called the metropolitan detention center, which is essentially a pretrial facility for the most part. It's where people wait until they have their trial. But these pre-trial facilities are all maximum security facilities. And that's what this prison is. So it's very harsh detention conditions. He doesn't go outside, and I think it's important for him to just kind of keep his mind sharp and also for me as his lawyer to learn as much about the case I can. I saw him Friday and I'm seeing again this afternoon. How would you describe his his state of mind right now? He's very engaged. He's very engaged in his defense. He's he's very smart. He studies great deal. He has a lot of ideas about. His case, he's adamant about his innocence, and I think that's part of what animates him to be energetic about his defense as he's been, he's like a font of ideas. I mean, I try to, I would love to spend more time with them, but I, I have other things I need to do on his case. So I try to keep my my visits to two or three hours which seems like a lot of time, but it never seems to be enough time with him. You know, we're always in the middle of a sentence and he's in the middle of this list of things that he wants to tell me about only listen key. I really have to go there other things. On your case, I have to go and do, and it seems there's never enough time even though I spend a lot of time with him because he's just a very dynamic person. He's a, he's a real thinker, will he? He, in fact claims to be one of the smartest men in the world. I wondered is that did you find that. It's funny. I defended Martin Shkreli. I don't know. I don't know if you ever kinda got up to Canada, but he was the the so-called pharma bro guy. He was very smart guy too. So this is probably my tenth client who is the smartest man in the world. And so you know, he's smart. He's up there. He's a perennial smart guy smartest in the world. I don't know. There's a lot of smart guys in the world. I don't know that I'm one of them, but I've certainly met a lot. It strikes me that his incarceration, I, I guess, for anyone to be incarcerated is radically different than where you have last come from. What's your impression of of how he is handling this shift from the life he was living for so many years to being incarcerated and and confined. It's a, it's a good question. I think especially with Keith, Keith would walk fifteen miles fifteen to twenty miles a day when he was living in Clifton park, you know, in the woods through the, you know, down hiking trails and on the streets. And so it's very different. One of the things that sort of amazing is he's found a way to continue to walk fifteen to twenty miles a day. And what he's done is he's he's sort of paste out a circle and by using geometry, I'm not saying this. Makes him the smartest man the world, but he doesn't have to do geometry. He was able to determine the circumference of the circle and he's able to walk fifteen or twenty miles a day around a fairly small circle. So yeah, life is changed. You know, once he was walking through the woods and on hiking paths in these beautiful natural environments. And now he's walking literally in a circle in a maximum security facility. Well, so the FBI describes Nexium as a criminal enterprise. And it says that Keith and other leaders have used the self help program to to coerce people into manipulate them in order to enrich themselves. And I wonder if BSS also, I wonder what your responses to that. I don't think that's true, and I don't think that that will be proven true, true trial. I think the government's position is is a tricky one. I'll tell you why, because everyone here is not only an adult they're well to do adults. They're adults that for the most part educated, there's. Smart, they have financial opportunity. They're successful economically and they have choices. You know, these are not poor, put upon people who are desperate for a better life and we'll make choices against their self interest. These are actresses and models and and successful people in business people. People who have successful businesses, and I've asked perations and these are choices. I open adult knowing voluntary choices that these people are making and for the government to just sort of say, well, you know, they're, they're brainwashed, you know, effectively brainwashed. That's really what the government's saying is that is that all of these successful adults have essentially been brainwashed, and they're not acting in their own true self interest. And I just don't think I don't think there's such thing as brainwashing. I think to the extent that we once thought there might be brainwashing went out with a Cold War. You know, it's like a. A relic of the seventies. I mean, it just doesn't exist, but is it? I mean, are people that are educated and and have means immune from being manipulated or coerced brainwashing aside, right? I suppose everybody can be manipulator coerced, but let's look at really what they're saying is going on. It's a self help group. It's a group that that preaches really, I think a pretty fundamental idea the way of come to understand it, which is this that there are no victim with the ironic part about this case, is that the next flossy and maybe I'm dumbing it down too much. Is that just take victimhood out of the equation, everything in your life is something that you chose. I mean, I'm talking about people who live in first world countries who have choices and economic opportunity. If it's in your life, it's because you chose it. You know, if if you don't like your marriage, you chose your wife. You know, you're not a victim and if you take victimization out of the mix of. Normal human interrelationships and you take full responsibility for them. Your life is is better your ethics or stronger, and you become happier, and that's the the linkage between one owns personal ethics and one's own happiness to the extent that there's any novelty in the next philosophy. That's what I understand it to be an. I don't think that's a great idea. You know, and people announcing will I was manipulated while how to sort of say that I was exposed to these concepts and somehow I was manipulated a coerced men. You're gonna have to prove that to me because I don't see it. What I do see is I see a lot of people who broke away from this group who were once very attached to this group who wants leaders in this group who were once teaching the stuff that they're now saying they were manipulated by and now they're angry. I think part of what the evidence is gonna show is some of these people who broke away from Nexium wanted to. Aversion of it themselves? No, they hacked into the next computers. They tried to take the client data. They tried to take other information, you know, because they wanted to go off and do this alone. They don't want, you know, Keith to to to be the head of it. They want it to be the head of it. And I think that's going to be a fascinating part of the trial. Can you tell me what what keeps role was in the company more generally? So Keith is, I guess, like the philosophical head, he's not really a business person. He doesn't have a business mind. He doesn't have business acumen, you know, he's much more. This is gonna sound sort of like pedantic, but he's much more of like a philosopher. You know, he's a thinker is a big thinker and so he gives intellectual and philosophical content to the program. But you know, he doesn't handle the money. He doesn't really do the enrolling. So that's that's funny. I see this myself boyfr-. Frankly, I mean, I'll sit down with Keefe and I'll have a whole list of things I want to talk to him about and very practical things. Things that I really need done and Keith will be off on something. You know, he wants to to to to know why certain things are being done in the case. And in a sense, it's, you really doesn't have an appreciation for the fact that his lawyers there talk about these immediate practical sort of pedantic things. He's like, well, you know, why do prosecutors do this? Is the system really better or worse? Because it does this instead of this. And I'm like, Keith, you really, we're, we're burning time talking about these theoretical things when have something immediate and practical, I want to discuss with you and he doesn't care. You know, he's, that's the level he's on. He's very sort of above the weeds. The focus of our investigation of this podcast series has been around Sarah Edmonson story, a former member of of Nexium and of dos, and I've spoken with her a lot over the past few months, and she's told me about her feeling of being deceived when she found out that this secret women's group that she had been that he had she had joined dos. She found out. She says it was actually run by Keith rainier and she also found out. She says that that Keith Renne's initials were on her body that she had gotten a brand. She was hold. It was going to be something else and then sees discovers his initials. I wanna ask you, first of all, are those Keith renews initials on Sarah's body? I've, I've seen the same image that people have. It looks like there's a cane or if you look at it, you know, sort of sideways. So I can't say that it isn't. I made it appears. It appears to be. Was Keith aware. I mean, is that intentional? You know, I don't know that it was intentional. I think at some point I think he did become aware. You know. And I think that it was like sort of a, I don't know, acknowledgement that Keith's philosophy sort of inspired dos, but Keith is not. The leader of dot dos doesn't really have a leader in that sense, not a corporate structure that way. And so you know, I, I know I don't begrudge Sarah Edmonson from feeling deceived. However, she feels that she was deceived, but if feels that she was deceived because you know, this is some corporate type structure with Keith is the head. I don't think she really was deceive because that's just not the case. In court filings. FBI included alleged electron of communications between Keith neary and a dos slave, and Keith describes himself as a grand master in a secret growing organization where women wanna be branded with his monogram. What do you make of of the FBI's evidence that they've released so far about this, this electric communication? Well, so let's let's break it down. I think it's very clear that many women not all of them, but many women in dos were branded themselves, and I think that's the term we have to kind of stick to. They weren't branded. They branded themselves. They knew it was going to happen sir, Edmonson. I mean, I read something where Sarah admits and said, she didn't know she was going to be branded. I don't think she can maintain that. That account. She knew she was going to be branded the all new. They're going to be branded. So everyone was branded voluntarily. Early, knowingly with their eyes open knowing precisely what was gonna happen to the extent that anyone didn't know they're being branded with what seems to be Keith Ramirez initials. You know that that seems to be a different story. And if that's the nature of the problem, I welcome that problem that I knew I was going to be branded. I wanted to be branded. I plan to being branded, but I didn't know those Keith Ramirez initials. I'm not quite sure how that turns into a felony. I mean, it's, it's just it's just not. And I think what's great irony. And I think really where sort of the rubber meets the road and this entire case is I think there I think the government's position has elements of sexism in their men in the United States, join fraternities and get branded. A lot of the wrath -letes. We see these tremendous brands on their muscular arms when they're during football games and during other sporting activities. And we don't think anything of the fact that. At big strong athletic men brand themselves. Also, men join secret groups, the Masons rec- group, their scores of secret groups from Harvard and Yale, and all these, you know, elevated educational institutions, but it's men. So we don't think anything of it. Women want to be in a secret group and to be branded. And all of a sudden we're very quick to say, oh, poor dears. They must be victims because no, no, right. Thinking free willed woman would ever want that for herself. And I think that's sexist. And I think the government is playing into a sexist agenda. You know, men do these things. We call marines. Women do these things. We call them victims and I think that's offensive. I take your point about the desire of women to get branded infest consensual, no big deal. The FBI the 'electronic communications. They included in their indictment from Keith to, for dos slave said that he. He claimed to be in the Email. It said he claimed to be a grandmaster and he was part of the secret growing organization. So in fact, their claim is that this wasn't an of women's only group. It wasn't about women's self empowerment. He sitting at the top of it. What's the response to this communication of Keith actually claiming to be running this thing he he's not. I mean, the the fact is he's not doing anything to run it. I mean, the the women are running it. The women are are doing the brand the way they want to do. The brands, Keith never told anybody what to do. You know, Keith never told Sarah Edmonson. What to do. Keith never told anybody in dos what to do. And I've spoken to about a dozen women in daas and they've each told me the greatest thing they ever did. It's the one thing that they felt gave their life greater content and greater happy, gave them greater happiness and greater meaning. And what I'm sort of insulted by is that the federal government would come in and basically take this. No, you're you're actually victim. You know, you think this is good for you. You think you were happy. You think this gave you greater content, but we know better because after all, we're the United States government and we've been knowing better for two hundred and twenty years, and that's off limits to you, and we're not going to let you do it nonsense. One of the the requirements of women to join dos was to handover collateral nude, photos, videos, false confessions. How much of that collateral did Keith c or how much of it went to Keith? I believe some of it went to Keith. I think most of it was was retained by the, you know, the the mass, the woman master who brought the person in. And so I think for the most part, you know, Keith did not see the vast majority of it, but collateral is a very common principle in Nexium. I mean, I was talking to a a gentleman last week who was a little, not not fat, but he's a little on the heavy side and his personal goals. He wanted to lose weight and he was a musician. He was a guitar player and he said, I'm gonna lose this amount of weight, and if I don't lose it, I'm gonna give you my guitar. That was his. Of collateral, you know, and it's a way of putting something behind promise and and the whole kind of concept of behind Nexium is promises matter. It's not just words, and I think we all fall into that. I promise I'm going to stop smoking. I promise I'm going to take better care. I'm gonna lose weight. I'm going to be a better father. I don't even better husband, whatever these promises are, and we break them and we break them because we're human were weak and what Nexium tries to say, no, no, no. If you made a promise actually do the things you need to do to keep it because that's how you're going to self esteem and that's how you're going to be happier. But I've heard from Sarah and seen in FBI indictment that some women dos did say they feared that their collateral be released. If they didn't want to be a part of the organization at any more didn't want to abide by certain instructions that were given to them, isn't that legally proper problematic to hold. Someone's collateral against them, even if they voluntarily given it over initially, I don't think it's extortion. And first of all, I think it's important to know I'm no collateral is ever released ever not one time. Women, women left daas. Women didn't keep the dos secrets and no collateral was ever released in the government doesn't allege. Otherwise. I don't think any member of DASA legit. Otherwise, I'm to your point of whether it's problematic. You know, it's a, it's a little edgy. I mean, I, I will. I will give you that, you know, and that's true. It's a little edgy. But I think it's there for a reason the women of daas wanted that to be part of the equation, and they saw meaning in that. And I think that they have the right to see many of that. And if it was a way of cemented the commitment I'm in dos, I'm in dos for life. It's a dos uses a lifetime commitment. I am. I am your sisters for life. That is my commitment, and I'm backing it up with collateral that could be released. If I stopped being your sisters for life, or if I divulged the secrets of dos, it's a little edgy. But you know, that's that's what they wanted, who did create those. So daas was created. So they're eight original women in dos who I'm Knockin name on the air. Daas was created because one of those women was engaging in self harm, cutting herself. And I think this person had a conversation with Keith Keith said, you have to make me a commitment that you're never gonna do that again, because I'm afraid you could cut yourself to deeply in something horrible will happen. And I think the response was I can't make that commitment to you because you're, you're not sufficiently important to me that I'll make this commitment to you. And I think the idea was will what is there out there that sufficiently important to you that you would make this commitment to that thing or that person? And I think daas formed around that event. And I think through the years, it's been very attractive to women, young women who I think have some measure of struggle. You know, women who struggle struggle with happiness struggle with content in their life. You know there, I'm in the women that I've met in daas who've talked to me about daas have been very serious people. They've been very strong people and they've been people I think are are having some measure of struggle internally and for whatever reason daas spoke to them. The f. b. i. says that Keith was using dos to compel women to have sex with him. What does he say about that? Absolutely. One hundred percent false. I mean, kief has a unique sex life. He has had multiple partners his entire life, they know about each other and they're okay with it. You know, I think most of the time not all the time most of the time, but he makes no bones about it. You know, this is who he is and women choose to be intimate with Keith or not with that knowledge and he doesn't need daas to have sex with women. I think there was no shortage of women in the Clifton park area who were willing to be intimate with key through neary. So I just it's just false. I think it's just a, you know, a weird sense of self-importance. I think that some of these women are putting on dos and say, oh, I was in. In this because Keith Wanda have sex with me. You know, listen, I've seen text messages. I've seen emails, you know, Keith, Keith doesn't need to create an organization for these women to to want to be close to trust me, but we're women in dos being instructed whether whether or not by him where they being instructed to have sex with him. No, not that I know of nothing I've seen. I mean, I think you know a lot of these women new, Keith, and you know, I think some of these women had the lay ships with Keith. You know, some very small percentage of if there one hundred fifty women dos, we're talking about a handful, you know, five or six. So you know the government's contending that this is a sex cult where all of the women were going to sex with Keith, you know, I mean, we're probably somewhere around two percent or three percent of everybody in daas who had any kind of intimate relationship with Keith. Some women claim that sex with Keith was proposed as part of the personal growth that they were engaged in. There was kind of a proposition that it could be empowered to have sex with Keith, what Keith told you about that? So I, I haven't heard about it from Keith, but what I've heard from some other people is that some of the women who are in dos felt that they had issues with intimacy during sex didn't have issues with sex, but there was not the element of intimacy in the sex that they were having. I've heard this from two different people and that they felt that they could be intimate with Keith now. Ironically, neither of these people had sex with Keith. Because the can get intimacy from Saxony could get intimacy without having sex and the issue for them was intimacy, not sex to the extent that some of these women though said they had issues with intimacy that is what Keith sorta does. You know, Keith is about that. Keith is about human connection, Keith is about, you know this. I mean, I say jokingly, but it's only half a joke. You know, this is more of a cuddle cult than it is a sex cult. You know, Keith would go on long walks with these women. He'd hold hands with these women. He would lay down in a bed and you know, she would put her hand on Keats heart and he would put hand his hand on her heart and that is a totality of the conduct. You know. So the, how this got transformed into a sex cult, I'll never know. And yet the FBI alleges that there are in fact, several women who were in dos who said that they were forced or compelled because of collateral, they had handed over collateral to have some kind of sexual encounter with Keith. Are you suggesting that those women are lying? Yes, I'm I'm saying they're lying. If there's if they're saying that they were coerced, have sex with Keith. I'm saying they're lying. Because the because the instruction wasn't there or because the that the collateral doesn't count as a form of coercion that they didn't have sector not have sex with Keith because of the collateral. I, we have text messages. I mean, I know I know who you're talking about. We have text messages it. It's preposterous, you know, these are these women wanted to be with Keith. There's no talk in the text message about collateral with pages and pages and pages of text messages, text messages. What the text messages say. They basically are two people in a very. You know, close consensual open relationship. I mean, it's it's the way a boyfriend and girlfriend would talk if if they had a good relationship and we're dating for six months, you know, it's, it's just like that. So is dos still running the people that you talk to this positively of dos about DASA? They is. It still operating. Oh, yeah. And what's your sense? Do you have a sense of how big is I don't anymore? I think everything's sort of like a little slower a little refrozen, but the people that I've spoken to dos or so, no, I'm in daas for my life. That's it's a lifetime commitment that I take very seriously. And I think the reason the lifetime commitment is important is the idea that if you need to speak to one of your dos sisters, they are there. They have not backed out. You can count on them forever. And in a time when I think people are worried about forever, you know, things change, everything changes. We live in a society that changes rapidly. I think the forever concept really is important that is money in the Bank to you. And that goes a long way. And I think what what the women are in dos are grieving that the government has come in and. Is trying to ru. I mean, a force, no less powerful than the United States. Apartment of Justice is coming in and trying to tear apart those friendships. What do you think that stake in this in this case. A greatly the government wants to give Keith rainier life in prison life in prison, they won't life. That's what they think of fair resolution of this case would be that he will get life in prison for this. And so for Keith everything. I mean, his very livelihood has life is at stake. People have been calling Sarah Edmonson a victim and a whistle blower a hero around this case, and I wondered how you would describe her. I've never met her. I'm not gonna use labels. I think heroes a there aren't that many heroes in the world that we can point to. I think it's great if she considers herself one. But I think at the end of the day, she was a very important member of this organization. She was a very important member of daas. She was an enthusiastic member of daas many, many people will say that and her life one in a different direction. I wish her well in her new life. I mean, people, you know. So the betrayal that sort of like Sarah describes is described by people of Sarah, you know, she was my friend. We were close. We share these things. You know, we did all these things together. We had these deep conversations together. How dare she say these things now it's not true, and she saying them to be hurtful, and she was my friend, you know? So. So it kinda goes both ways, whatever that's worth so. So you mean people that are still part of dos or so absolute feel betrayed by her one hundred percent and why? Because from their perception, she's intentionally saying false things to hurt them, that they believe she knows is false. Do they have gas at why she would do that. They have theories, yeah, but they're all their personal that has to do with her marriage that I'm not going to get into because it's not my place, very private, personal perceptions. I mean, these are people who know her and know nippy mean and you know, and no them both. And you know the way that relationship's demise, people have perceptions as to what happened and people have perceptions about Sarah and her husband. Is, is this going to come out in the trial. If she testifies. Yeah. I expect she will. Can I ask you who's paying your bills. Sure. There's a, there's a defense fund. I've said this in court, it's an irrevocable trust, and the trust is paying kency. My quotation marks, reasonable defense expenses. The trust is set by who there's a trustee. I'm there's a trustee who's a lawyer Eminem. And I don't have visibility. I mean, I don't have been listen. I mean, if if if you put a gun to my said, who do I think has put a lot of the money into the trust? I, you know, we all know the answer might be, but do I know I have no visibility into that whatsoever. You're talking about the profits. You are. You know, I mean, you know, but, but I there could be others too. I think they're multiple participants. I don't know if anyone is participating, you know to that extent. But honestly, I have no inside knowledge whatsoever. You know, I just I know there's a trustee, we submit bills and hopefully the trustee will continue paying the bills and also do this pro Bono and probably get fired. Mark. Thank you so much. Sure. Thank you. All right. Take care. Next time on the final chapter of escaping Nexia I didn't do anybody. I didn't trick anyone ever get caught in a riptide if you come up for air and you think you're fine the wave hits you again. What about the money that you made through the organization? Do you feel here entitled to keep that money? Do I feel entitled had I been one more bit angry? I may have pushed her down the stairs, and it was scary moments of being your mom experts totally allowed to talk about your experience. Well, I do feel nervous about talking about it. Did you think it was a cult when she was. Yes, I did. Escaping Nexium is produced written by Kathleen gold har- and need it. You lash me Josh block and b. Anderson who was also our audio producer, Heather Evans is our senior producer an off. Noorani is the executive producer. If you want to discuss the story with others and get the latest updates become part of our online community by joining the uncover escaping Nexium Facebook group or following us on Twitter at uncover CBC get the series for free wherever you get your podcasts, resi, b, c, dot CA, slash uncover. if you like our show, be sure to check out other CBC podcasts like the shadows, a fiction series about the anatomy of relationship. It captures the joys and brutally messy, painful parts of love by ward winning audio artists Caitlyn pressed of the heart. For mayor CBC original podcasts, Goto CBC dot CA, slash original podcasts.