Episode 82: Stu Phillips discusses the importance of dietary protein and its role in muscle
Welcome to stem talk. Stem, talk stem talk. Welcome to stem, talk for introduce you to fascinating people who passionately inhabit the scientific and technical frontiers of our society. Hi, I'm your host on Connecticut's. And joining me to introduce the days podcasts the man behind the curtain. Dr Ken Ford, agency's director, and chairman of the double secret suction committee that selects all the guests who appearance them talk. Hi, Don, great D here today. So our guest today is Dr Stewart Phillips of professor of conceal g at McMaster University in Ontario, Canada who is best known for his research into muscle health and the benefits of dietary protein stew is the director of McMaster, physical activity center of excellence, stay of the exercise research and training center that is devoted to studying and improving the health and well being of older adults as well as people with chronic diseases and disabilities in addition to his work in the department McMaster Stewart's adjunct professor at the University School and his fellow of the American college sports medicine and the American college of nutrition. He also received the new investigator award from the Canadian institute for health research downtown area Pamirs research excellence award and the Canadian society for exercise physiology young investigator award, but before we get to today's interview with Stu we have some housekeeping to take care of. 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Well, thank you, while dot E N to rob wolf and thank you to our other stem talk listeners of help stem talk becomes such a great success -absolutely and now unto our interview with Dr Stu Phillips. Stem stem stem talk. Hi, welcome to stem talk. I'm your host on Canadians. And joining us today is Stu Phillips, Stu, welcome to stem talk. My pleasure. Thanks for having me on the show. And also joining us is Ken Ford halloo Don in Hello. Stew says Stu you've lived in Canada for a long time. But you're born in the United Kingdom. How old were you? When your parents moved to Canada. Yeah. I actually came to Canada in nineteen eighty at that time. I would I just turned thirteen years old. So I still carry the British passport. But I think I consider Canada my home, and as a kid, I understand that you played a lot of sports in that the harder you could hit somebody that was even better. So what sports did you play? Yeah. I enjoyed a rugby. I like soccer a little bit. Although wasn't wasn't enough hitting for me really enjoyed ice hockey, and and football as well make sense. And I also understand that you had a high school science teacher who was responsible for getting interested in biology, and even chemistry is that. Right. Yeah. Guy named mardi rich still in touch with them on Facebook. And I tell him he's the man who started me out on the on the path and science for sure that's very good. So after high school you headed off from McMaster University. So what led you to decide on that campus in particular? Yeah. Well, so McMaster in Hamilton is only about I would say about twenty minutes away from where I was going to school to high school. And so it was close enough that I could sort of, you know, run home on the weekends to do laundry if I needed to, but it was far enough that I had to live out of my parents. I was which was important point for me. And at the time they had a pretty good rugby team as well. So those things came together and they had a good. Science program. So a lot of things just came together for me there. I guess speaking of rugby understand that you are captain of the rugby team your senior year, and it looked as if you were headed to a really great season. But things didn't turn out as you planned. Can you tell us what happened and how the season in some ways led to your decision to focus on nutritional biochemistry? Yeah. I it's bizarre. When I look back on it. How things might have gone very differently but two weeks prior to the season starting in my senior year of university, eyebrows, my leg actually, playing rugby a and a summer game. And all of a sudden, I had a lot of time on my hands. And so I decided that a senior research thesis was the way to go. I looked up professor in the department of biochemistry where I was doing my degree. He said sure come into the lab, and it was a real, I guess I opening or a penny experience and really turned me onto research. And I really haven't looked back since. So how did you end up at Waterloo university to work on doctrine physiology? Yes. So I did a master's degree, and that was in nutritional biochemistry, and then at the end of that I was looking around for something just a little bit more. I guess applied to to human San I met with professor named Howie green. He's another one of my sort of touched on mentors university of Waterloo, and he was doing some human training work, and it sort of seemed then combine everything that I really liked. So I had exercise physiology and one hand I had human subjects on another. There was training stimulus. There was nutritional aspects to it. So I looked him up, and he was open to take me on the peach student so after graduating from Waterloo. Why did you decide to offer Texas? Yeah. Again, it's it's a situation where I think you pick the people that you think are the best in the field. I spent a lot of time reading articles by a fellow named Bob Wolff. Bob was another one of my sort of Abba column. A key mentor in my career, and he was down in Galveston, Texas at the time, and really I really wanted to go and work with him. He was the top dog in the field. And I was fortunate enough to to to go down there and spend three terrific years in Texas. So is it true that after three years in Texas, he moved back to Canada to get married? I think if my wife or telling you the story, she probably agree with that. I moved back for her. I think it was a confluence of a lot of decisions. I it was time for me. I thought to start looking for faculty positions. But yeah, my my now wife of almost twenty two years was also doing her PHD. And and she she soon, I think quite plainly told me at one point you have to come back. If you want me so it made the decision fairly easy. I think that's a good good decision near part. Then it sounds like so lately. So what led you back to McMaster study among other things protein, exercise muscles synthetic versus Kabbalah dynamics. Yeah. So part of my master's degree was where the fellow named Mark turn opolskie. And at the time he was a PHD student. He's an MD, and he's probably still one of the most influential people in my entire career, a great mentor, a really great friend. And I think. I could say, and it's not a not a cheap thing to say is that I wouldn't be where I am today without him. So Mark at the time had a part time appointment in the department of kinesiology. And he said to me, you know, what on thinking of getting out of the teaching here going back to full-time sort of clinical and research. So I think you should probably come back, and then you can take over my teaching, and you know, who knows what's going to happen from there. So Mark's field was protein metabolism. It was the thing that I started off doing my research in and the combination of that then with the Kenichi all g department ended up in a job offer eventually early on in your career. You became known for your research into muscle health and benefits dietary protein because all the tissues and our body broken down and regenerate on a daily basis. Protein is one of the only macronutrients that we have a daily need for. So can you talk about how you first became interested in this process and also give us an overview the importance of dietary protein. Sure, I mean, there's an analogy that I use that. I think works fairly well as to think about all the proteins in your body is if it's a big brick wall and bricks are being put into the wall, these the amino acids nine of which are essential that are making the wall. And then at the same time bricks as you said are being pulled out of the wall. So there's this constant turnover of proteins in our body, and particularly I was interested in muscle protein because it related to the performance of at the time physical activity and exercise, which is what I was interested in so the stimuli that responsible for muscle growth or muscle atrophy. If you like in the other situation of disuse, I thought were particularly important. It also applied to a lot of clinical situations. People lose muscle mass, for example, when they're on bedrest, and it just really pushed a lot of. I think intellectual buttons for me. I was intrigued by study. And it was the advent of sort of molecular biology techniques in which people were beginning to look jeans to sequence genes. Enter really get a handle on their expression. And I saw the to these things sort of come together. And it really just turned a lot of my intellectual buttons. So how well do metrics correlate to what we really care about in real life. So for example, a lot of work has focused on muscle protein turnover or the sum of protein, synthesis and breakdown so did changes in muscle protein, turnover directly correlate with changes in muscle growth. Yeah. You know, the theory that we've been working under for the probably about the last twenty years is obviously it's the balance between these two processes, so synthesis is building up. The wall breakdown is obviously breaking it down when we're kids the walls growing, so the net effect is that synthesis exceeding breakdown as we age, or if we get sick breakdown succeeding, synthesis. I don't think that there's any doubt about that the processes that we measure acutely, particularly over periods of hours in I would say broad strokes align with some of the things that you see in the real world. In other words, muscle gain or muscle loss. In certain scenarios that they haven't worked out as well. A more recent method that we've been developing and using which measures protein, synthesis, and then abundance of proteins over periods of days ten to better job. So it does align in some situations. But I would admit not an all. Many protein intervention studies. Use supplementation in the form of way protein that makes sense, you know, way has a clear benefit, given its high loosen content and convenience factor. However, recently, some researchers are starting to look at interventions with wholefood protein in particular. I'm thinking of a recent twenty seventeen study that showed that whole eggs promoted greater amount of muscle protein, synthesis than whites suggesting perhaps that there might be benefits to the extra nutrients founding the egg yolk protein powder may in fact, be very convenient. But is is it possible that by taking an isolated protein supplement like way or casing that? We are missing out on a spectrum of other nutrients that could odd meant the anabolic effects of the Nino acids alone. So I think the short answer to your question is is. Yes, absolutely. I mean, most of us don't ingest enough isolated proteins as way or casing for them to. Be substantial portion of the protein that we would ingest, and I think that the biggest advantage that those protein Sav is clearly that they are convenient. They also don't provide other nutrients macronutrients in particular, refusing to just get protein into your diet and not fat or carbohydrates. But I think that the work that you mentioned did not just give a shout out to a former PHD student Nick bird whose lab conducted that study, and I agree. I think that that's a terrific study. And it's a really interesting example of showing how the food matrix is probably doing something that's different than the isolated egged protein itself. So there's some synergy within food that clearly were missing when we studying isolated proteins and the advent of the method that we have now to measure changes in synthesis. Over days is really going to help us begin to understand some of those things faceting, so you and many others believe that the recommended daily allowance repair teens to low so. Why is that? So I think that there's two things the current method to establish recommended protein requirements is nitrogen balance and the shortcomings of that method have been documented for a long long time. It would be fair to say that it's a method that a lot of people don't agree with as a way to establish protein requirements on yet. It's the method that still used that's mainly because their new the newer methods that are out there. There's no agreement on which of those is actually either valid or superior and could be used as forging an estimate. So there's a little bit of a difference of scientific difference of opinion as to which method is still the best one out there. But I think that most of the evidence that we've collected in that we've looked at particularly from the standpoint of focusing on skeletal muscle would really indicate that point eight grams of protein per kilogram body weight per day, which is the current recommended dietary allowance is insufficient particularly for older people to maintain their. Sel mass. And so that's the point that we've made probably over more over the last decade in a lot of studies publications that we've had so I'm a vegetarian and a hat to be a little bit more creative about making sure that I eat enough protein as you can imagine. So can you talk about the differences between animal and plant based protein? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think it's probably my writer statement when people talk about vegetarianism is is to say that it's it's it's a very healthy way to eat. And I have absolutely no issues with vegetarian diets. It's not my personal choice. But I don't have a problem with with the diaper say, I think that the big point with vegetarianism or veganism in particular is just to be judicious about how it is that you plan your diet and protein is one thing that it might be a little bit more difficult to get something of the generalization is that animal based proteins are higher quality than plant based proteins. And so you don't have to actually eat as much animal based protein to get all of the essential amino acids as you would with plant protein, so beyond that, I think plant proteins channel tend to be a little bit harder to digest, and that's predominantly because of the preponderance of fiber that's present in there. If you remove dietary fiber, and you have isolated proteins like soy's, for example. Than it's a very high quality protein in his very well. Digested Stu, do you think in might be helpful for vegetarian or vegan to supplement with essential amino acids, provided that, you know, they're vegan approved who would seem that that might might be helpful. I think in certain situations. Again, it depends on how well this the person were to plan their diet and insert situations. I might suggest that that might be something that somebody could do if they were having a hard time either planning their diet or finding sufficient protein through the foods they were eating so it's a potential strategy. I'm not a huge fan of individual amino acid supplements. My social media shout outs on that have been pretty clear. I I'm not a big fan of a single amino acids supplements. But so I I try to tell people to get protein via their food if they can do it. But it is a possible scenario in which people could use I mean Lhasa supplements. Sure this would. Be all the essential amino acids, not just a single amino acid. Yeah. Yeah. And there are some clinical studies where people have done that and shown that actually it does tend to improve protein balance. When you're when you're able to do that. Says to you've mentioned that muscle, synthesis and catabolism are like a sinus Odal wave going from Annaba. Listen to catabolism over twenty four hour period. You may see more Annapolis them, then you may have an improvement muscle mass and vice versa. So can you elaborate on this? Yeah. So it's not just our experimentation. But in studies that we've done a number of other labs around the world. It's pretty clear that when you give somebody protein they get a transient period in which protein, synthesis stimulated it exceeds protein breakdown and you get a state of of net muscle protein. Accretion the flip side of that. The longer you go then without food the rate of synthesis declines quite sharply and the balances is that breakdown exceeding, synthesis. So quite simply you go from these states of being fed in which you're anabolic, and then fasted or at least postprandial for about three to four hours after a meal in which you're you're in a net cata estate, and usually those those two states are. Are balanced, for example, and someone who's maintaining their muscle mass. But when you have somebody that's either reading insufficient protein or doing insufficient physical activity, which is the other big stimulator protein synthesis than net. Catabolism? In other words, when breakdown is up and set the Cisse's low tends to predominate and muscle mass is lost the currently except in amount of protein required to achieve maximal stimulation of protein, synthesis following resistance exercises. Typically in the literature that I've seen something like twenty twenty five grams, and we're talking about young people here. The more recent evidence from Kevin Tipton group indicates that the dose response relationship may depend on the amount of muscle tissue that was recruited during the exercise. So with the ingestion of forty grams protein, they found further increase in muscle protein, synthesis rates during recovery from. Whole body types of resistance training workouts from reading the paper. It was not clear to me that the difference in muscle protein, synthesis was first of all that it was enough to really matter outside the context of perhaps elite sport. And Secondly, I was wondering if for an older population, his finding my even be more relevant wondered if you talk a little bit about this paper. Yes. Sure. So the the initial number that you mentioned the twenty to twenty five grams probably comes from some of the work that we did earlier where we showed an young men who were just exercising their legs that that was a sufficient dose of protein to maximally stimulate protein, synthesis. When we gave the same young man forty grams. There was about eleven percent increase in protein, synthesis versus twenty grams. So the process was affectively saturated at twenty grams, it may be a bit of a statistical nuance in that they paper you mentioned by Kevin Tipton. Also, a very. A good friend trained with with Bob Woolf. And so my three years in Galveston, Texas, where some very good times with with Dr Tipton, and we remain good friends that paper, and it's Lindsay mcnaughton. One of Kevin's former PHD students the first author on that AM the difference between the twenty and forty gram doses. A sixteen percent. So it to me, I agree with you, can I think it's a rather small difference in it wouldn't necessarily say to me that, you know, maybe these younger people need to eat a little bit more. But I'm you know, all agreed is sort of split the hair on that one and say, okay, maybe it's relevant. I do think to your point about the an older population who have a condition that we refer to as anabolic resistance. In other words, they don't tend to use protein as officially that. They could stand to maybe eat a little bit more and forty grams might be more relevant for that population. We've off. Third review paper on that topic with Luc van loon and Tyler church would Vinay and we asked the question, and it certainly does appear that the evidence would support higher intakes older people. So ageing impairs the sensitivity of skeletal muscle to Annabel stimuli, such as me know acids and resistance exercise, a very interesting twenty thirteen paper, your group reported that in the context of resistance exercise, it appears that the Myo fibrils protein, synthesis machinery, and older muscles less responsive to low and modest doses. A protein and the key finding from the study was that in middle aged men ingestion of beef promotes disres- bonds relation for NPS with the greatest response occurring with ingestion of hundred seventy grams of beef, which is roughly six ounces containing six grams of protein can you elaborate a little bit on this study and its findings and implications for mitigating the age related loss of muscle mass function and also the quality associated with older age. Sure. I mean, I think that the important point this this ties in very nicely with the point. We were talking about with Ken before. So as you mentioned dont, the anabolic response to stimuli, light, protein, ingestion or resistance exercise for reasons that were. Fully aware of a probably a number of reasons in older individuals or in this case as you mentioned middle aged individuals is somehow impaired. And so it either requires that they do more exercise to make themselves more sensitive or they ingest more protein to get them selves sort of back to if you like younger levels. I think the paper, which is you said it's one hundred seventy grams of beef for about thirty six grams of protein, the finding kind of speaks for itself, the per serving the people really talk about with beef is in Canadian and and US guides is about three to four ounces and so substantially less than the six ounce dose, which we showed stimulated protein, synthesis to a greater degree. And it goes back maybe a little bit to the food matrix effect is that there are things in beef that are beyond simply its protein content that might be aiding and the anabolic process, but it certainly does suggest that older people require more protein on on. A per dose basis to stimulate protein, synthesis. Given the losing oxidation responses that you reported in the study does it seem reasonable to think that the hundred seventy grams of beef might be close to the maximally efficient or the maximally effective does after which additional protein would fail to increase muscle protein, synthesis. Yeah. That's a good question. It certainly does appear that that that kind of dose that we're beginning to see auks Dacian, particularly if they know acid, loosen which remeasuring here, which was suggest that the Alaska's themselves are are not being used for protein, synthesis. Now, it may well be that you need to get to those doses and see the consummate stimulation amino acid oxidation to get that protein synthetic response. The only cross-sectional or cross study comparison that I can make to answer. The question of were probably near the top is study done by Doug, Patton Jones and Brock Simmons. As the first author in which they gave older men twelve ounces of beef. So in Doug's word he calls that the outback dose of of steak or beef. And they saw no further stimulation compared to a smaller dose. So I think that we're with six ounces of beef were probably close to the top end degree. We have a colleague here that twelve ounce steaks are mere appetizers. And and you know, there's lots of people out on social media on the full out all meat diet. So I don't doubt that people are getting more. He's he carries a large amount of muscle. And he's convinced that therefore he needs much more beef. Yep. Lots of people like that there for sure. So on a related topic. There's a lot of talk today about protein timing. I know this something that you've looked into as well. So can you discuss the importance or maybe even the lack thereof of protein timing in relation to about of resistance training and total protein and take over the course of the day. Yes, sure. I have to go back to a study that I did when I was involved wolf slob, which was published in nineteen ninety seven and I just like to say the number nine hundred ninety seven to convince my current crop of undergraduate and graduate students that good science was done prior to the widespread advent of the internet in the you may actually have to go to the library to look this. I know. I know it's it's scary. And what we showed in that study was that the effect of just exercising alone actually stimulated muscle protein, synthesis. Even the fast state for up to two days. So and I agree. It was a pretty heavy leg, exercise workout. But I think the point would be is if exercise alone is stimulating muscle protein, synthesis and food is adding onto that which is what how what we know a happens. Then I don't think that that anabolic window was so called is closed. You know, an hour or two hours later. So I don't think that protein timing with respect to about of resistance exercise. Anyway, is affected to the degree that most people would think I do get a bit of a chuckle about people walking around in gym carrying a shaker of protein because I just don't think that it's that important so get a meal after you lift weights, certainly if it's within three or four hours. I don't think. That it makes much difference. Whether it's between three or four hours, or you know, thirty or three minutes, but if you go a little bit longer, I could see maybe a slightly attenuated effect. But it's really not that big a deal in my opinion. Yes. In some lately seen gyms you could get run over by people charging out to drink their way protein, shake within thirty minutes or they've squandered their time. It's yeah. Yeah. And it just doesn't work like a stew. I've read several different papers suggesting that an hate this term unless use it. Anyway, the anabolic window shortens in many ways with age. So young athlete may have a longer period where they still could receive maximum protein, synthesis from exercise and eating in that it may be briefer in the older population. What are your thoughts on that? I think that that's probably true. There's something as as we've said that is associated with aging, and we really can't put her finger on exactly what it is. But it does appear that older people have this sensitivity or the sensitization that occurs with exercise not quite as the as robust as you get in younger individuals. But we do think that that affects does not last as long so the window as you call it. And I'm not a big fan of that that phrase either tends to stay open a little bit for a little bit shorter time. So it does make some sense in the timing issue may be more relevant for older individuals than it would be for for younger individuals continuing on this theme of a nutrient timing there have been several studies coming out of an loons lab and others suggesting the forty grams roughly forty grams of protein in just before sleep can be beneficial for muscle protein, synthesis. Again. Especially perhaps in older individuals while consuming protein before bed. I can see that it would have potentially some benefits in might also be detrimental from circadian rhythm and sleep perspective forty grams as you know of protein is a lot of protein, particularly of taken in the form of whole food. You know, it's like something like seven eight or five cups of milk. Some or a big stake may be shake would be a lot more convenient one constantly hears though that eating neatly before bed is a very bad idea. So given the importance of sleep to anabolic and other processes, what are your thoughts on the recommendation of pre sleep protein feeding? Yes. So I think that there's an, and I commend Luke in the the folks in has live for doing the work in this area. There's a felony Mike Ormsby who's at Florida state Lind looking at some of the effects of that pre sleep meal as well. I think it's an interesting point to to make about the ingestion of things pre sleep and were beginning time. Stands some of what that does to changing circadian rhythms. And so there's definitely something that we need to do some more work on in that area might take on. This is that you know, if you're somebody who's in the league level athlete. This might not be a bad strategy to try if you're in a clinical scenario, if you're on bedrest, or if you're sick, for whatever reason you're looking to hang onto as much muscle as you can. Then maybe also this is something that's beneficial. I'm not sure I'd recommend it for everybody. Some people it they say it works. Great other people. It's not such a big deal. But I see it as a strategy that might be practiced by people who were on the lead end of sports, or who were in a clinical scenario where maybe muscle is particularly important, but for most mere mortals the rest of us in the middle. I don't think it's something that I certainly not something that I do I try to have my dinnertime meal the last meal eat, and then again in sort of falling in line with if you like time restricted fee. Leading type regime. I try not to eat before. I go to sleep there. Same with me. I'm wondering the reading that study was unclear to me whether that was really a tiny benefit that is having the protein immediately pre sleep or perhaps the result that they reported could be driven more by topping-up, essentially, the days, total protein consumption or is the timing critical in other reserve possible. That's that's a total protein affect that's a lot of protein. And if you added forty grams to most people's daily protein consumption, you might see a benefit. Yeah. It's it's the variable that wasn't controlled in the initial study that Tim Snyder's published and certainly, you know, if you were to go back, and do it again, you would say that the perfect sort of control group would probably be somebody that got the same amount of protein pre sleep, but at another point in the day, and so the total intake was the same between the two groups and in the absence of those data it's impossible for me to say. But I appreciate your criticism. I think it's worth mentioning that Andy hallway RTA who also is a former McMaster guy and a rugby player, MIT dot publish the study out of van loons lab that show for older individuals that pre sleep supplementation actually didn't Augmon any gains muscle mass. So maybe it's a strategy that you know, we might wanna think about for elites, but maybe not for older individuals. Great. That was a good explanation. You're talking about rugby we've discussed it several times today. Just as an aside the gentleman that eats prodigious loads of beef is a former rugby player. So so the stereotype is complete right? They're trying to get rugby. And whenever I can. I'm sure that sounds great in a twenty seventeen paper. Bob Wolfe published in the journal of the international society of sports medicine. He concluded that the consumption of dietary branch chain in menial acids. Do not significantly stimulate muscle protein, synthesis. I found this paper. Interesting. What are your thoughts on this and in the hockey running from high quality animal protein, like we've been discussing eggs and beef, then perhaps to essential amino acids, and then to see a as branch chain amino acids, how do they stack up and why? Yeah. I I really admire Bob's article. He's a great thinker when it comes to protein metabolism amino acids, and really the understanding of the concept, and and I think it's important to mention that the three branch chain amino acids, when you go back and really look where the concept that they are either anabolic if you want to phrase it that way or anti-catholic Bolic comes from data in looking at what we call exit vivo muscle preparation. So where muscles are taken from animals put into a bath. And essentially kept alive in bath. When you have branched chain amino acids in that medium, it tends to suppress the protein breakdown that's going on remember that's a muscle in a bath. So it's essentially a muscle. That's for all intents and purposes, it's dying albeit a slow death. And you know, that observation has persisted, as you know, a reason behind white branched chains exist as a sup. Climent? And I think Bob quite convincingly makes the argument in his paper that you know, you've got three of the essential amino acids out of the nine, and we need all nine for a full anabolic response. And so the best that you could expect from a branch chain. I mean, oh ASA combination as that would result in complete suppression may be of protein breakdown in a mild stimulation of synthesis. But it never does that they never do that. And so he makes the point that if you were the put them in the hierarchy that you just suggested can that really were talking about one individual branched chain amino acid, which is loose scene, and it sort of enjoys a position of prominence of the three because it's the one that triggers protein, synthesis and the other two or kind of along for the ride then when you go up to all of the essentials than you, clearly you can get a full anabolic response is Suming that the non essentials were never to become conditionally essential than that would be a good strategy. But I think you. Putting all things together. And coming back to the argument about whole proteins in every other nutrient that may be present in the whole protein that would support the response than what you really talking about. Is you know, clearly hold protein and high quality proteins are going to be the winner. When when we look at sort of from a neutral standpoint at the the anabolic anti-catholic response inducing a positive protein balance. That was a terrific paper the doctoral did I wonder he must not be the favorite child for the multi-million dollar grant chain amino acid supplement industry yet. Now, I don't I don't think he made many friends in that industry with that paper it, but it's a it's a true Goto paper for me yet. It's beautifully written. And it's it's really done. It's it's it's a rarity in some ways. Stem talk is an educational service of the Florida institute for human machine, cognition. A not for profit research lab pioneering groundbreaking technologies aimed at leveraging and extending human cognition perception, look emotion and resilience. We were discussing earlier the pre sleep ingestion of protein and some of the objections. I've heard too that are among health lines having to do with digestive processes and sleep. Do you think they might mitigate some of those objections? If the person particularly older folk were ingesting, the appropriate amount of essential amino acids, but not in not getting a big insulin. Pop from drinking way protein or even case in Jimmy ideas on that. Yeah, it's it's a good question. I mean, I think that there's a lot of things that we still have yet to take a deeper look at an about spreading protein intake, for example, across the day and trying not to have it all concentrated in the dinnertime meal. So maybe more the breakfast more the lunchtime meal, and then you know, sort of a little bit less. The dinnertime meal might be more efficient strategy rather than this may know, skewed back end loaded. Acton. And again, that's a very westernized view of how people tend to consume their protein if you were to go probably to Latin America, then it's it's around the lunchtime meal rather than the dinnertime meal. The interesting question, I've always sort of asked myself, and I experienced this when I travel and spend time in France and Spain and Italy is that those people eat their their last meal usually at nine o'clock at night. And I don't know about people who are listening to the to the podcast here. But that's what I'm getting ready to go to bed, but then I'm up early. So I ninety clock is I I suffer a little bit. When I'm over there and people eat that late. I'll be honest Italy is easier for me because the they do eat late for dinner, but I'm asleep by then so it has no influence. I mean, if they want me to join them for Neil, it's it's lunch. And so the consume often the biggest meal the most protein is often at lunch. Yeah. That's true. Is that suits me? Yeah. Fair enough sister. You're the director of the physical activity center of excellence more popularly known as the pay center, which is a state of the art exercise science and training lab McMaster. And a lot of the research that you and your colleagues do examines how nutrition and exercise interact to affect strength and muscle mass and older people as well as people who are overweight or suffer from chronic diseases such as type two diabetes. So can you give us a history of the lab? And also overview the research that y'all have going on there. Sure. Yeah. So so pace it's probably existed in one way, shape or form for about thirty three years. Now, it's a community access facility that we'd catered to five different populations. So seniors people undergoing cardiac rehab, we have cancer patients, most of them, either undergoing treatment or survivors. And then we have to mobility limited populations and those people with multiple sclerosis and people with a spinal cord injury. So all of those programs with the exception of our. Cancer program grew out of research studies, where at the end of them are participants sort of said, well what happens now, and so we've created these community access programs. We today have probably close to about five hundred members most of the research, we do is around physical activity, obviously in that center. I talk a little bit about nutrition. But I'm very if you like I I love the Jack Lang quote about exercise being king nutrition being Queen and together they form kingdom on. I think it's true. But I think if you were to put your money on one thing that absolves a lot of sins and really as a, you know, the most beneficial activity you could do for your health. It's it's about physical activity. So we're interested in questions surrounding the dose of exercise that people would require for automobile health and fitness the types in the forms of types of training. But we're very flexible about trying to fit it in to people's likes. Because we find that. Attendance is probably the best predictor of positive outcomes rather than a particular program. So as long as we can get people to the gym and get them to work out. Then that's that's the real key in my opinion agree so following up on the discussion of the aging and older population loss of muscle mass strengthened quality starts much earlier in life than many realize, especially in highly sedentary individuals also this unfortunate transformation, typically exceleron. It's as one ages. What are some of the warning signs that people need to look out for? Yeah. It's a great question. The concept and the syndrome that we've, you know, given the name to their circa PINA and circa Pena's decline in muscle mass muscle function, which is a more. Recent addition to the definition as we age as you point out at probably starts in some people. And I hate to say this probably. In their thirties. Definitely I think most people are experiencing some degree of it in their forties in their fifties. Personally for me this year at starting at age fifty three and that's not a reflection of anything other than my own age. Of course. But I think the main point would be that it is something that starting earlier than most people think, and it's very difficult to detect what it is an when and how much it is that you're losing. So I don't know if I can give you a great answer as some of the warning signs. There are not particularly sensitive tests things like standing out from a chair or trying to do a six minute walk test or a four hundred meter tests, and those are pretty prognostic for people in their senior years, but not really for people in their thirties and forties. But I think it's fair to say that if you're unable to do some of the things from physical activity standpoint in your thirties forties that you could do in your twenties. Then it's not just a fair accompli that you should accept and say, well, this is aging and it's going to get me. I'll just accept it with enough physical activity, you can overcome it, and and to some degree even probably reverse it or definitely keep it stable, and you shouldn't just accept the fact that it's a steady slow insipid decline. So I don't know that I can say exactly what I would point to as a as an early warning sign, but definitely a compromise. Physical ability would be something that I would take note of maybe grip strength might be one. I don't know if you saw the paper stew in Seattle is thought grip strength would be a good indicator, and perhaps leg press for older people. But I last year I read an incredibly annoying paper that the results of the paper was that young millennial age men were twenty percent weaker than their than the average cohurt of their parents population in grip strength and assay. Essentially the same as their spouses or just a little different. And the takeaway wasn't on. My god. This is a problem were growing a population of week men, the takeaways we need to renew normalize in knows who need to rearm is. What's normal said now, the grip strength standard for that age group is going to be downward adjusted. I just rattled my brain. Yeah. Just just lower the bar lower the bar. Yeah. I probably shouldn't get into it. But there's a lot of that going on with respect to physical activity guidelines and programming around. The message is now no longer. Let's be physically active, but let's reduce sedentary time. And it really kind of makes me that's what we're really talking about now. But you know, that's a whole nother conversation. So can you talk about why it's important to maintain healthy functional muscle mass and function as move into middle and later life. Yeah. I mean, I think that the bottom line. That question is really about mobility. It's become much more apparent to me. I think in the last three to four years the more dealings. I've had with people who study aging from a number of different perspectives to talk about how physical, but then also just community and social mobility are concepts that are interlinked without physical mobility at becomes far more difficult for older people to remain socially active. It means that they're far more likely to be socially, isolated along with those two consequences. Then comes a lot of mental health issues around depression. And I think then the whole situation begins to spiral out of control. So the scenario that we paint is somebody who loses their physical mobility, subsequently can't do as many things, and then doesn't have as big a circle, for example of friends or peers or activities that they participate in. And so now there if you like a spear of movement. Against a shrink. They just simply don't get out as much and they tend not to do as well. So I think the functional muscle mass issue really comes down to being physically mobile went as you age. Yes, I'm in my mid sixties. And so people in the age group of my parents, a lot of my friends are suffering the consequences of Sarko PINA, just as you say I wanted use that one other point it really leads to a loss of independence. So in almost all the cases of people that I've seen need to go to the nursing home. They were otherwise more or less. Okay. But the couldn't get up off the floor or the couldn't get off out of the seat adequately. And they essentially lost their independence and they went into a facility, and they typically declined rapidly after that. So I think it's a really important issue that as a society we don't attend to enough. I couldn't agree. More system. Curious doing Noah. Opinion progresses. The same way and westernized versus non westernized populations. That's that's a great question. I think we have data from a number of Asian populations. Now that suggests that the the rate of muscle losses relatively similar. I think it's interesting to see how people treat older people in some Asian cultures. That's a little bit different than westernized cultures. But there are differences between men and women as well, albeit subtle women. Obviously, outlive men, so you would like to think that women would pay a little bit more attention to being physically mobile because they're going to spend time if you look at the average statistics without a spouse. But I think that it's it's not quite clear at this point. Whether we have cultural differences that exist outside of what I mentioned so mostly Caucasian populations versus Asian there, probably are some nuance differences. But I think it relates more to the habitual level of physical activity that these people have rather. Then to their ethnicity per se. So you had a paper published in the journal frailty in aging titled muscle disuse as a pivotal problem encyclopedia related muscle Lawson dysfunction. He talk a little bit about that study. Yeah. That was a paper. Actually that was a review paper trying to summarize what we knew at the time about these periods of what we call disuse periods that happen with greater frequency and people who are older mainly because of the health conditions that they suffer from so these issues. Periods are periods that might be due to some type of illness. They may be due to a surgery or they may be due to an you know, we're experiencing a little bit of it right now in Canada to flu season. So what happens in these these periods of disuse is that people experience accelerated rate of muscle loss. And I think most of us are familiar with having a an acute discus event, for example, fracturing a limb putting a cast on and then watching our muscle disappear. If we have it when we're younger. That's not a big deal. We gain it back, but older people simply have a much much harder time gaining back the muscle that they lose. So we think these issues events are pretty critical. They could be something like a surgery, which I think everybody appreciates the bed rest that you would undergo is necessary to have some form of rehabilitation or something as benign as convalescing from from flu maybe spending one or two days in the hospital. If you if the flu is really bad, but then essentially sitting around your house for the next ten days to two weeks, an older people simply have a much harder time recovering from those things. Some experts in the longevity field strongly believed that dietary protein should be very limited one argument against keeping protein relatively low especially in older populations is the occurrence of in abolish resistance and the subsequent risk of muscle loss leading to Sarko PINA, we touched on this earlier. But for our audience, would you please briefly explain what is meant by the term anabolic resistance. Yes. Sure. Anabolic resistance refers to and it's an analogous concept to sort of insulin resistance, if you like and that the muscle that is anabolic -ly resistant, and it generally happens in older people or it can happen and younger people if they're inactive as well would mean that for a given dose of protein that we get far less muscle protein, synthesis or bricks going into the wall in an older person than we do in a younger person. So they're resistant to the normally anabolic effects of the protein that would be ingested. So I think it's important to say that there's a component of aging that is in there. But there's also a component of inactivity. We can make younger muscle vary. Anabolic resistant, for example, by by making it inactive you also see other in. Pollick? Hormone receptors turned down. You know, if you look at in these older folks, a lot of them are quite insulin resistant and also not surprisingly idea one resistant. Yeah, I think that, you know, these the hormone resistance that you talk about and the decline and androgen hormonal status is potentially important the loss of estrogen in women who are postmenopausal are all important hormonal changes that would contribute to this for sure. Last year, we interviewed Dr vaulter, long-gone stem talk, and we will provide a link to this episode our show it, but in his book the longevity diet, he recommends a vegan style Pesca -tarian diet. But once a person reaches the age of sixty four Dr Longo recommends eating somewhat more protein such as eggs can you talk about the need to add more protein to our diets. We get older. Yeah. I think a lot of the discussion that Dr Longo has provided there revolves around a single paper. The first author is Levin that was published in. Cell metabolism in which the the data the doctor law goes lab provides which is a lot of animal base. Data is actually quite compelling and supports the case that he's making it's the human based data which comes from N Hanes, which is probably the message that came out that most people remember the protein is bad for you as smoking. For example. We've published a pretty sharp critique on that paper. It wasn't just myself but included about six other protein experts. I think that the important point is that the prescription that Dr Longo is talking about with more protein as you age is really one that's in line with the concept of anabolic resistance prevention of frailty and likely support we have a theory that it's likely that there's protein that's needed for support of immune function as well. So the trend that he showed in people prior to the age of sixty four the protein was in fact, detrimental reverses itself in people after the age of. Sixty four. I'm not saying, it's it's a pure age sixty four for non but somewhere as you get older protein becomes more important and those data actually whether you look at the animal data or the human data would support that concept. I don't disagree with the vegetarian Pesca -tarian type diet very healthy way to eat, of course, gained standard writer, not my choice. But that's no problems at all the source of protein is X absolutely great, high quality protein nutrient dense food Varia Ford -able, not bad advice where the argument about the high protein earlier in life sort of comes apart, and we're about to undertake an analysis. That's a little bit deeper if the N Hanes data is that I still don't agree with the way. The this Justice were done in the people prior to age sixty four the Hanes data by itself is somewhat problematic. But my my recall of the paper was essentially there was there was no signal. Result until the population was divided into two groups one of which the younger and one of the older that is not surprising than you would get the result that they got. Yeah. And I think the the low protein group that they talk about was pretty arbitrary and where that line was drawn. So let's just say is that we're on record as as being critical of that paper as a lot of other people were so clearly more work needs to be done. Absolutely. That was another paper were relative risk was used as opposed to absolute risk. Yeah. Yeah. Again, these those nuances are big if you're in the area, but on people who are just casual readers, the headline that protein is is is like smoking twenty cigarettes. I mean, if anybody really believes that that's the case, then I know I just have to shake my head a little bit to be honest and the medium mis interpretation of. Of those papers as well. Right, so. Yep. Yep. I think it's it's important. Like, I really admire Volterra Longos work. It's very very elegant stuff in the models that he has from a rodent standpoint. And everything are really compelling where I have to sort of suspend my disbelief is in translation of those two to humans where things are far more complex. And I'm not saying that I don't think that there's a grain of truth to what he says. I just think that the the degree of if you like a fact is is not as substantial as he might like to to paint to stoop. Can you talk about the myth at too much protein creates kidney damage? Sure, I mean, I think you can trace this line of thinking back to a hypothesis put out by Brenner and somewhere in probably the early seventies where he noticed an increase in Gamaliel filtration rate in acutely in the kidneys of not just animals but human beings on ingestion of a higher, protein, diet and. And then went onto hypothesize that that over time with essentially where the kidney out, and so would would create death of the the Neff on the functional unit inside the kidney and lead to progression of renal disease. It seems that there's been reinforcement of that concept when you talk to people who spend time in renal wards with patients who are in end stage renal disease for example, were put on lower protein diets and then subsequently obviously their life. As is prolonged because they have compromised function that doesn't mean that protein caused the decline in renal function. And in fact, we just completed a a meta analysis, and it goes hand in hand with very nice systematic review done by Mary vinyl, Swick showing that we couldn't find clinical evidence for the Brenner hypothesis. In other words, the more protein that you eat there is no decline in renal function. If anything it goes up. And even in long term studies. There's no evidence of decline that people say is going to happen. And even if you look populations who consume higher protein intakes, there's no higher incidence of renal disease. So I think a lot of those things just speak to the absence of evidence for that hypothesis and stressing the word that it's a hypothesis and not something that's based in evidence. So intermittent fasting has gained a lot of attention in recent years as well and Mark Mattson discuss an investing in episode seven of stem talk more recently in obsessively nine we interviewed such panda of salt institute about time restricted eating can you talk about how fasting affects muscle protein turnover. I think going back to what we talked about earlier clearly when you're fasting muscle protein. Turnover is favoring a net. Catabolism I think it's important for people to realize that the the net turnover you experience muscle protein in a given day is in the order of three to four times the amount of protein that we would need. So we're actually quite efficient at recycling amino acids that appear as a result of breakdown. So the intermittent fasting scenario is one where you're creating a situation where you're actually favoring catabolism within muscle, but the degree of catabolism is actually quite transient and not particularly stark when we compare it to for exa-. Sample somebody who's fasted for either days or is in a clinical scenario muscle wasting or muscle loss and tastic does good. Thank you like intermittent fasting Cutie genyk diets are gaining popularity and quite popular with our audience. Some have certain that substantial muscle loss may be a negative side effect of Kita jank diets due to their moderate protein content as rigidly formulated in the context of diet for epilepsy. But even here the evidence for this is far from conclusive. In fact, some animal studies, including fastening study conducted by Keith bars group at the university of California Davis suggests that Akita jank dyke can actually preserve muscle mass in motor function with age others of provided evidence that the key Thome body. Acedo acetate may be a signaling molecule in muscle cells and important player in attenuating age related decline muscle function. Unfortunately in this is where the rub lies. Many folks practicing acute genyk diet overly avoid protein and given a well-formulated kid genyk die with sufficient protein, roughly following the guidelines that we discussed earlier is there any reason to believe that it would be detrimental to muscle mass. So I think it's an interesting dietary paradigm so somebody who's on Akita genyk diet with obviously have very low insulin and the one I think role that we can ascribe to insulin with a good evidence is to say that it suppresses protein breakdown muscles. So that would seem to favor the idea that you would lose muscle mass. And if you are on a very low protein Kita genyk diet than I might begin to worry about something like that the great our ever offset, or of that type of fact would obviously be physical activity. So the more physically active, you were particularly the more resistance exercise that you did our weightlifting you would hang onto. Probably a great substantial amount of muscle mass. However, as you said, can I think that the point is that if you are on Akita genyk diet, it's possible to still remain in a state of dietary toasts us and consume sufficient protein, that's well in the range in which we were talking about to maintain and support your muscle mass and other protein requiring functions like, for example, immune function. So you know in short, I don't see it as a big concern. I think activity tends to Trump diet in terms of hanging onto muscle mass. But for most people who are not all about, you know, how high can you drive Kito sus an interesting ketosis in the sense, then you can actually stay in a key Todd state and you can consume sufficient protein and still not worry about I think where most people worry as the protein raises insulin to the extent that they go out of Kito sus. And if you're judicious about choosing foods. Are higher in fat that just simply doesn't happen. So I don't think that it's valid concern to be honest with you, right? I tend to agree. And also when you're in that state, your insulin is suppressed as his idea one. But the receptor sensitivity is typically increased. And so that's a another factor. But the biggest one is you said is many people on that diet are really not consuming there. So terrified of being kicked out of Kito says that they're not consuming adequate protein. Yeah. And I think that the the, you know, some of the sort of odd comments that I've heard is that then if you consume more protein it effectively as a way of generating sugar via the process of glucose via Genesis, and there's very little data that I've seen that gluconic. Genesis is is a supply driven process. In other words, the more protein, you give it just wildly makes glucose beyond the levels that you would need that result in an insulin response. And again when you go back to the original studies and look. At this. It simply doesn't know. And in currently in modern versions, not the old Johns Hopkins epilepsy version, but the modern versions of the kid during diet, you don't see that. You don't you? Don't see people having a major affect of Glueck Aena Genesis from eating the recommended amounts of protein, and you see people gaining muscle mass, not just not losing it. So that's that's a lot of confusion because it's become sort of a buzz diet or a trendy thing. So Stu as you pointed out, physical inactivity impairs, insulin sensitivity, and that's exacerbated with aging and the paper that union college produce examined the impact of two weeks of acute inactivity in recovery. Glycemic control an integrative rates muscle protein, synthesis and older men and women. So what did you find in that study? Yeah, that that was a I mean, it was a heck of a study to undertake as you might imagine asking people for two weeks to take no more than between thousand fifteen hundred steps for day and everybody sort of said, that's just crazy. The interesting part is is we tried to sort of remodel in that period. The type of physical activity that somebody who was in clinical scenario, for example, patients in hospital take no more than about, you know, seven to eight hundred steps per day, mainly because the defacto treatment when you're in hospital and on the ward is to is to be in bed. So what we found was that the patient sue underwent that protocol. So the onset of what we've talked about anabolic resistance through inactivity. They saw the onset of essentially type two diabetes. And I think the the most shocking result to us, and we didn't expect to see this was that with two weeks of a return to their normal physical activity. They weren't quite back to normal. They didn't get the full restoration of their muscle protein synthetic rate, and they actually were still mildly in some cases diabetic or at least pre diabetic and these were overweight pre diabetic people to start with. And so we were what we were really highlighting. I gain dawn back to your question about what these issues periods mean is is it takes if I in my heart of hearts want to say that these people did recover, but it's gonna take longer than they the two weeks that we saw so as a matter of protocol. Now, we put anybody that we put through that type of protocol through an exercise program on the backside just to make sure that they do recover, but that show. Shows you just how benign a stimulus like two weeks of inactivity can can have on somebody's metabolic function. So Stu much of the research that we've discussed today's in males in for audience. Can you discuss why that success and further please share with us whether the same rule regarding protein applies when it comes to females and what may be different between males and females in this regard guilty as charged. Yeah. It probably like a lot of other researchers and applaud of any funding agency, which which calls for sexual and gender equality with respect to the testing of whatever it is that you're doing without any firm evidence to show that maybe sexes an important factor that we need to consider. So I think that the important point is that young men and young women look very much alike when we get into older men versus older women. Something happens around menopause, obviously, a substantial change in hormone status that means. That older women for reasons that gain are probably related to estrogen, and it's mildly Andhra genyk role in women become much more anabolic resistant than than do men. So the amount of physical activity and the amount of protein in older women may be even greater than we're talking about in an older man to try and restore that response to sort of youthful levels. If you like, so we're doing a lot of work. Now, actually, we have several studies ongoing, and we just published a couple of papers and older women. But I want to say that a big grant submission that we have coming up. We'll be looking at men and women on the younger and older side as well because it's just high time that we did a lot more work in women. So I'm definitely guilty as charged on that front, and we just need to better job grew awesome. A couple years back. Several people sent me papers asserting that H M B. Officially known is bid. Hydroxy beta methyl Buterere a metabolite of Lucienne in the free acid form in this case was as affective this was actually somebody quoted this to me as effective as steroids in promoting muscle protein, synthesis. And I was interested when I saw that your group did a study that was conducted on behalf of the American college of sports medicine that found that supplementation with aging be in this case in fact, failed to enhance body composition to a greater extent than the placebo. Did can you talk a little bit about the H B claims? And you're studying it's results. Yeah. Sure. I mean, I think that they most important point to make with with beta H MBA or beta hydroxy beta method rate is that it's a it's a metabolite of Luccin. And as I said earlier in the show of the three branched chain amino acids loosing is the amino acid that enjoys this position of prominence. It's the one that turns on muscle protein sent. Emphasis, it has anti-catholic properties in it's not just simply substrate. So it's it's probably of all of the twenty main Alaska's, it's the most important amino acid for skeletal muscle. So at probably is not surprising that metabolites of losing. So like alpha keto ice Accra pro acid, which is another supposedly anabolic supplement and beta H M B have similar actions. In fact, when you give people aid H MB, and this is work that we've collaborated with philanthropy over in the United Kingdom with and you give them loosing UC potent anabolic stimulation you see stimulus of muscle protein, synthesis. But the stimulus is about the same the advantage that H M B might have is that it's six around a little bit longer. Whether that means something is is debatable our work in which we compared way protein at it with H MB added to way protein. Gene with the equivalent amount. And just in terms of mass of Lucy nodded showed the our subjects gained in the using the same training protocol that you talked about in the paper with these steroid like gains. They gained about I think it was about thirty percent of the of the muscle that was gained in that that steroid like paper. So I think importantly, I weakened reproduce their H MP like gains muscle, mass, and probably more importantly when we compared the H B supplemented group with controller Lucienne supplemented group. That was no difference between the two so the numbers to bear in mind in that steroid like paper, you're talking about seven to eight kilo grams muscle shocking in twelve weeks. Yeah. Yeah. It's just it's it's stunning. And whereas we we saw in that same period of time about about two and a half. So, you know, our numbers are sort of more in line with what you would expect. Checked and no difference with Chambi. So I I'm very skeptical of those those data. I don't know how they're achievable as you said, it's good. And or maybe even better than a classic nineteen ninety six paper showing that steroids are obviously highly effective. Yes, did just for the audience were the resistance training protocols that they used in you used very similar identical. And that was our point is that we wanted to use their protocol. I mean wanted to see if we could a reproduce their results and be whether we could show this essentially superior quality in terms of stimulating muscle gain of H M B and A we weren't able to reproduce their results and be we simply weren't able to show the superiority of H M B over protein loosing. And frankly, if it had the effect reported in that paper, there would be no h. Be to be found in the world. It would be well, you know, I mean, it would be probably be banned because it's a diet. It would be banned. Yeah. That's you know Phillips rules of supplements. If it sounds too good to be true, probably is. And if it is too good to be true. Then it's banned. There may be some exceptions. But but not many. Any agreed? So Stu if you had a twenty million dollar budget and could enter take any research project without limitation. What project would you study? And why would that be? That's a great great question. You know, more than I think anything now that I I've researched and studied in the past the thing that really pushes me forward. And where we're trying to take a lot of our work is is in aging. You know, the statistics are the same globally. It's going to be something that everybody will have to face in Canada right now, we're looking at about seventeen percent of the population being over the age of sixty five by the year. Twenty fifty that will be twenty five percent of the population. So one in four people over the age of sixty five so we're going to have to find viable ways to keep these people as independent as long as possible. You know, clearly, my mantra is to make them as physically active as possible into get them into with the best dietary approaches to support muscle and musculoskeletal functioning, but also good health. Clearly, the twenty million dollars would probably go to a multi site randomized trial too. To look at the effects and impacts of different physical activity regimes trying to enhance compliance with those regimes trying to reduce the barriers to coming to, you know, be at a physical activity class or just going for a walk. I think most people still think that the amount of exercise that needs to be done to achieve health benefits is requires monumental effort. And it just doesn't the biggest reduction in risk happens in people who go from doing nothing to doing something. So trying to get people to just even be a little bit physically active. I think is a big deal, but it would be definitely aimed towards older people and definitely trying to sort of remove the barriers or any stigma. They have around being physically active, but not just a robotic, you know, walking activity, but also to make them strong to improve their muscles and their bones in their balance and gait as they get older. As well. So some sort of multi site trial around that type of theme, and then trying to figure the dietary piece which is very it's much grayer than physical activity. I think it's easy for me to talk about physical activity, but the dietary approaches are much more difficult to nuance to try and understand those a good answer. Steuer Leear you were talking about the effects of estrogen and the need for more work in that area. Just today Keith bars group published a paper effective estrogen on must Gill Skelton performance in injury risk. I haven't ready yet. But it just popped up on the screen today. Yeah. Yeah. So I know that you played rugby for as long as you could. But finally had to give it up in your forties. So what does your exercise routine look like today? And do you still play any sports? I know they got a lot on your plate right now. And have a very productive lab. In addition to of all of your outside activities. Yeah. Yeah. No. I don't do. Engage in anything that could could damage anything in my body anymore. I spent two too many too much time injured when I was younger. So, you know, falling down as a major incident for me these days my day usually starts the vote to five in the morning. And it always has been that way. It's not some sort of Drako. Ian regime. I've always been a morning person. A generally starts with a Cup of coffee. And then the next thing, you know, in within about half an hour. I'm in the gym. I'm generally finished, my workout by about six thirty. I don't have enough time to spend more more time than that in the gym. So try to be efficient at what I do have a colleague mardi gras Bala. Who is convinced me, the high intensity training as is the time saving device that I need in to maintain my fitness. So I utilize it a lot and clearly mostly resistance exercise. Now, the longest all ever spend on an exercise bike in terms of you know, or treadmill is probably about thirty minutes anything longer than that. And I lose interest. So that's my sport these days, I carefully get the skates out, and and try and show young people how to play the game, but I have three boys, and they're they've all now exceeded their father and their their ice hockey prowess. My only advantages if I. Get them in tight. I have a little bit of a weight and size and strength vantage. But but beyond that, they're far more talented and skilled the than I am. So my work at regime right now is is trying to maintain my my strength and my fitness for as long as I can students. Awesome. Having you on the podcast. Thank you for joining us today. It was really great, Stu. It's been an absolute pleasure. Thanks for having me on your excellent. Gus. Thank you. Stem stem talk. Stews really doing Graham breaking work in the field of exercise science. That was such an awesome discussion. Yes, done Stu shared a ton of knowledge, relevant not only to young athletes interested improving their performance, but also for the aging population determined to maintain their strength, mobility and independence into their golden years strength training, coupled with the purpose nutrition is indeed the best preventative medicine for much of what else if you enjoy this interview as much as we did we invite you to visit the stem talk web page, we can find the show notes for this and other episodes stem, talk that US, this is Dunkin signing offer. Now, this is Ken Ford. Sane goodbye. Until we need again on stem talk. Thank you for listening to stem talk. We want this podcast to be discovered by others. So please take a minute to go to IT ones to rate the podcast, and perhaps even review more information about this and other episodes can be found at our website stem, talk dot US there. You can also find more information about the guests. We interview.