Before the Medelln Cartel Pt. 4: Jung & Rivas

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on a Beautiful Bahamian Day and nineteen seventy eight. Carlos later was dressed as sharply as ever. He leaned back and smiled across the table at his business partner as he delivered the news George was out. Carlos was taking over upon hearing this George. Young's blood boiled. After all the being through the betrayal was unfathomable. He jumped up and flip the table over ignoring shocked. Gasps and stares from the other patrons Carlos couldn't do this he screened. They had built this business together. They were supposed to be brothers but Carlos just kept smiling. He chastised George. Don't make such a seen. This only made George Angrier. Suddenly to menacing bodyguards appeared on either side of him. Ready to haul him out back. Carlos smiled again and invited George to meet his new friends. As the men tightened their grips on his elbows. George realized for the first time he was out of his depth. Wilkin kingpins upon podcast original. I'm Alison Myrddin. And I'm Kate Leonard. Every Friday we journey inside the ranks of Organized Crime Rings From Street gangs to mafiosos to understand how a kingpin or Queen Pin Rises to the top of the underworld and why they fool as we follow the lives of infamous crime bosses. We'll explore. How money and power changed them. And how it's changed the community around them. You can find episodes of kingpins and all other park asked originals for free on spotify or wherever. You LISTEN TO PODCASTS. To stream kingpins for free on spotify. Just open the APP and type kingpins in the search bar. We're grateful for you listeners. You allow us to do what we love. Let us know how we doing reach out on facebook and Instagram at podcast and twitter at parts network. This is our final episode in a four part series about George Young and Carlos later us last week we learned how the to ambitious young smugglers became the most sought after a cocaine traffickers between Colombia and the US but this rapid escalation came at a cost straining both their mental health and their partnership. This week. We'll find out how greed and ambition got the better of both George and Carlos turning them from brothers into enemies and ultimately we'll learn how their riflery brought them down despite their perceived invincibility a by autumn of nineteen seventy seven. Thirty five year old. George Young and twenty eight year old Carlos later were millionaires and powerful junior partners in the Colombian cocaine business that would become known as the Medellin cartel. George had spent most of the summer ferrying cocaine from Miami to Los Angeles several times. A week. He'd return each trip with millions of dollars in cash for himself. Carlos and they Colombian suppliers including Pablo Escobar. Meanwhile Carlos had been expanding their network of suppliers and buying a Caribbean island. They could use as their base of operations though. They were raking in money. By nineteen seventy seven. Neither man was satisfied. In fact George was teetering on. Burn out he wanted to transition to a less risky managerial role hoping to cash out. Soon Carlos though had endless energy he was planning to build a cocaine empire on the Bahamian of Norman's Cay. Not only would it be a trafficking base but it would also be a springboard to finally kick start. His political ambitions long dreamed of becoming a mythical leader like Adolf Hitler Shea Guevarra Newman's key would be his first kingdom allowing him to launch a revolution that would take over Columbia and eventually install him as dictator all his years of half planning were giving way his unbridled ambition. The only problem for Carlos was George. His partner wasn't on board with the NORMANS key. Plan after he'd visited the island in the summer of nineteen seventy seven. It was clear that Georgia's vision of their future was a bit limited. It didn't help that. Carlos says new fugitive friend Robert VESCO piled onto Carlos's concerns insisting that George would hold him back Carlos knew he had a point but still the thought of confronting. George was uncomfortable. There was no way he wouldn't take it personally. So con- loose route that felt far easier and safer consolidate his empire to cut out his business partner. Then informed George a little insurance policy I Carlos got in touch with Richard Ba- relay their distributor in Los Angeles calls told Richard that from now on he was going to be supplying the pure cocaine using some other smugglers. George would still continue his runs because warned that he couldn't guarantee the quality of the product anymore. Richard had been in drug trafficking long enough to see through the lie but also knew better than to say anything. Carlos direct access to the best cocaine took precedence so richards loyalty to George took second place. This was business after all. It wasn't long before I could tell something was off. Richard began complaining that the quality of the cocaine George brought to him wasn't as good as it used to be. It had already been cut by the time it got to La. Certainly not the pure stuff they will used to. George was shocked with each run. Richards distaste for the lesser product grew. In fact. Sometimes he didn't even want the cocaine was offering. This odd behavior Causes George to Cool Carlos. Someone was messing with him. He worried either Richard or Pablo Escobar or someone else in many geen even worse. If Richard felt he could walk away from their supply that meant he was getting high quality cocaine from someone else but Carlos dismissed Georgia's concerns. Let Richard Complain. He wouldn't matter for much longer. Thanks to Norman's Cay. There operation would soon be moving a thousand kilos a week into the US easily. They'd have a lock on most of the cocaine supply in the country. George wasn't reassured. He had less faith in the normans key. Scheme and a nasty feeling that Carlos was being strict with him. Carlos is frequent visits to the island. Meant he was more removed from the day to day. Operation seemed increasingly less invested in it. Their business worked if they were both committed. And George just wasn't sure Carlos was anymore over the fall and winter of nineteen seventy seven Georgia's fears were born out. Carlos slowly pulled back on his regular responsibilities his attention instead to Norman's cay and vague promises for the future. The businesses upward climb suddenly evaporated before long Carlos had stopped arranging the cocaine deliveries and George couldn't get power players like Richard to buy from him anymore. Only able to sell ten all twenty kilos. At a time. Georgia's income took a nosedive. Fortunately George still had one key. Columbian contact his girlfriend. Merita was the sister-in-law of Umberto oils one of Pablo Escobar's close associates in the US. Thankfully George got along well with Umberto and when he and MIRTA ELOPE that fall. The two men became family. It was one small guaranteed that at least George would have a steady supply of cocaine to traffic but being married into an important cartel family also meant George had new reasons to doubt colonists reassurances about the future George heard stories through the grapevine and the more he heard about Carlos the angrier he got after Carlos had made his deal with Richard in A. He was pretty much free to do and build whatever he wanted. He had millions in cash the trust of Pablo Escobar relationships with plenty of greedy smugglers and an island in the Bahamas. He didn't have to answer to George anymore or anyone else for that matter with his men tool Roberts help Carlos poured money into no-man's key. He dredged marina turning it into a harbor for freighters and port dramatic seafront mansion that he called the volcano he was a king or at least he thought so and soon found himself surrounded by sycophants needless to say plenty of them encouraged his harebrained schemes. In one case when the islands few remaining neighbors began to complain about the increased Air Traffic Carlos concocted a plan to scare them off. A few days later of freshly blood-stained yacht was found floating just offshore. The neighbors took the Q and decided to spend time elsewhere colleagues. His antics went only exacerbated by the fact that almost all of his employees cocaine uses hiring on their newfound wealth and every drug they could get their hands. On the residents of Norman's Cay turned Carlos his property into a pleasure playground and for the first time Carlos lead himself enjoy it for most of his smuggling career. Carlos hadn't had much interest in the party culture that went with drugs. His mind had to stay shop for deals. But now on Newman's key he'd already made most of the big deals to ensure a thousand kilos a week moved from Columbia to the US. It was time to enjoy the fruits of his Labor. What started with a few lines of cocaine quickly became an addiction to Basuco a Colombian version of crack cocaine. The party's underlings through morphed into orgies before long it dawned on Carlos that he and he alone was the law on Norman's Cay but as collins was settling into his new role as a debaucherous dictator. George was back in the. Us hearing stories of his supposed partners astronomical success and in early one thousand nine hundred. Seventy eight George finally decided to do something about it. Coming up George and Carlos takeout hits on each other high listeners. Have you heard my new? Podcast series daily quote. It's a quick to three minute daily. Podcast aim to brighten your days and renew your outlook on life. Now more than ever self love and self care take top priority. Well we couldn't agree more. Every day on daily quote you'll be given a quote meant to motivate an uplift you'll also dive deeper into the context surrounding the quote learning more about its origin and the meaning behind it. It's impossible for me to choose a favorite quote so far perhaps because I'm just a little biased but we've already featured some incredibly inspirational quotes from a range of thoughtful people people like Nelson Mandela Truman capote Betty Smith Julia Child. And more whether you're jumpstarting the morning searching for that midday pick me up or trying to finish the evening off. Strong daily quote. Offer some of history's most inspirational quotes whenever you need them. The hundred sixty five days a year. Follow daily quote free on spotify or wherever. You get your podcasts now. Back to the story in early. Nineteen seventy eight thirty five year old. George Young decided to confront his duplicitous business partner. Twenty eight year old Carlos later George knew he'd been cut out of the cocaine trafficking operation they'd built together which George felt. He'd actually done the bulk of the work to create without Carlos even having the guts to tell him so george called his former sworn brother and told Carlos to meet him in Nassau. The two men met at the Holiday Inn vine the Bahamian capital the fanciest hotel in town and Carlos favorite sport before he even ordered a drink. Carlos knew what he tells George Sure. His soon to be ex partner wouldn't be happy but collars held all the power. Carlos laid out what he'd been up to for the last few months and how everything was set up for him to move on. George was appalled to find Carlos so blase about the whole thing. He didn't even seem sorry for lying leaving his partner. High and dry. The final Straw was college. His comment that Norman's Cay was his empire and there wasn't room for anyone else to help. Run it George. Lost it. He swore that Carlos would pay Carlos's ego and political ambitions. Made him think he was invincible. And George wanted to quash that he might have even swung at him if Carlos is to hulking. German bodyguards hadn't suddenly appeared as George was ushered out. Carlos just smiled. He wouldn't get his hands. Dirty bosses really do after that incident. Carlos figured he was done with George and turned his attention back to Norman's cay his trafficking business had become indispensable to both Pablo Escobar and his partners in the powerful or a family cocaine was pouring into the. Us and Carlos was taking home millions of dollars a week. But George who had a long road ahead to rebuild his own trafficking business. The constant praise for Carlos only stoked his resentment every time the Colombians introduced him as the guy who got Carlos into business. George felt he was losing their respect and his place in the industry. The only thing he could do was to prove that he too was indispensable to Pablo Escobar. It would require some sort of grand gesture something that would show. He wasn't afraid of the gossip or Carlos is growing power and so in late. One thousand nine hundred seventy eight. George got on a plane to medigene. George had seen his share fancy homes over the years but Pablo seven thousand Acre estate. Hacienda Napoli's was something else. It was armed to the teeth with machine gun. Toting men and the grounds were practically zoo with elephants and hippos wandering around. If the goal was to intimidate visitors hob blow had succeeded yet. Pablo was warm and welcoming. He wanted to meet George for a long time. It took guts for an American who only spoke basic Spanish to visit medicine and he was sympathetic. To Georgia's situation Pablo felt Carlos had wronged his former partner. That didn't mean he'd get involved in. The personal feud Pablo may not have liked Carlos. But he's still needed his services for the time being heat staying neutral still. The journey itself was enough to cement their relationship and show the industry that George still had. Pablo's blessing when George got back to Miami. He was pleased to find that. His stunt in Medellin jolted his business back to life. He contracted with new pilots new distributors and before long he was bringing in nearly as much as in the good old days but Kalos was still doing better. He was moving exponentially more cocaine and making exponentially more money and he was becoming a legend making a name for himself beyond just the Colombian circles. The general public started his stories about the crazy cocaine kingpin. Who owned the Lola's party island in the Bahamas and taunted the DA from afar all? The fanfare drove George Crazy. It just felt so unfair that all the work he done and all the messes he'd had to clean up. Carlos was the one who is a brilliant entrepreneur by nine thousand. Nine hundred seventy nine. George was still doing far. More than the estimated lethal amount of cocaine on a daily basis and his judgment was starting to become questionable at parties. He began boasting to his and meters friends which included associates of and Pablos that he was going to take a hit out on Carlos he was the reason for college is success and he promised that he could take it all away to as ensconced as he was in his. Norman's Cay Empire Carlos eventually heard about Georgia's threats at first. He dismissed them knowing that George was a veritable. Nobody now but when George kept talking smack Carlos started to get angry his ego which was getting bigger by the day couldn't stand someone else. Taking credit for his success. He was going to have to shut George up one afternoon. The Miami George got into his car only to realize heaping blocked in on three signs immediately. He knew something was wrong. He was a sitting duck for a gunman he reversed planning to plow through the small car behind him but then changed his mind. If that took too long it would still leave him exposed. He decided to make a break for it and jumped out of the car. He barely made it down the block when the car exploded had George stuck around any longer he would have died. Everyone agreed that Carlos must have been behind the car bombing. No one else had a reason to want George dead but instead of scaring George into submission the attempted murder only made him doubled down in fact it was the tipping point for him to finally follow through on his threats. George headed back to Boston. And early nineteen seventy nine and reconnected with a few mall. Guys he'd known from his Danbury days. They helped him put together. A team of military veterans to accompany him to Norman's cay where he wanted to carry out the hit in person. He wasn't sure if he actually wanted to kill Carlos but striking Carlos on his own territory would at least prove that George wouldn't be pushed around George gave them up team a one hundred and twenty five thousand dollar down payment to stuck up on grenades and bazookas to distract the guards while George took Carlos out himself but that was as far as the plot went when Umberto heard about the plans he scolded George for letting his emotions get the better of him. If he attacked Carlos it would start a war amongst the cartel in Colombia. That would get all of them and Umberto's family killed. George realized Burto was right. He was letting Carlos get in his head. His grudge had drawn him away from what he was best at smuggling drugs and making money let Carlos have his intrigue and Grand Schemes. George was done with that by nineteen eighty. George had refocused on his business and was doing well. He Mirta and their two daughters lived in a sprawling Mansion Cape Cod while his operation brought in millions of dollars a month but justice success had made Carlos Overconfident. It may george callous lavish lifestyle started to attract the attention of law enforcement in October. One Thousand Nine Hundred Eighty Cape. Cod police busted one of his party's and charged him with possession of eleven ounces of cocaine uninterested in doing ten years in prison George skipped bail and headed down to Florida with his family but life on the run wasn't as easy as it had been a decade earlier a year. Later in October eighty-one George was arrested in a traffic stop and sent back to Massachusetts to serve his time. Sure George was annoyed but he wasn't too worried he could afford a good lawyer and figured he'd be able to charm apologize his way out of a long sentence to be easy to jump back into business. Once he got out Carlos is luck was starting to change to right around the same time in. Nineteen eighty-one the corrupt Bahamian government including the prime minister. Who'd been on Carlos's payroll for years was starting to buckle under pressure from the? Us Government Bahamian. Prime Minister had held out and protected. It's drug traffickers for as long as possible but when the US started to publicize the extent of corruption in the Bahamas government. The prime minister caved soon. The Bahamas were cracking down on drug trafficking specifically focusing on Norman's Cay and the DA had one loss dimond to arrest and extradite Carlos. The Prime Minister reassured him. It wasn't personal which Carlos understood of course but it reminded him that his own success wasn't always the priority as one last favor the prime minister won't Carlos of the upcoming raids. Carlos had enough time to escape back to Colombia before law enforcement caught up with him as his airplane lifted off from his now empty island empire. Carlos tried to look on the bright side. Norman's Cay had been a nice distraction but it was time to get back to what mattered his political ambitions. Perhaps going back to Columbia was an opportunity in disguise. He had money and reputation. He could start laying the groundwork for the revolution he'd always wanted taking over. Columbia was the only way to prove he didn't have to bow to the DA. Once his country rallied behind him he would become an international figurehead. Unable to be pushed around. Coming up we'll find out how Carlos is Hubris ultimately brought him down and how George got the last laugh now back to the story at the end of Nineteen eighty-one thirty nine year old. George young and thirty two year old Carlos later had both fallen from their pedestals atop the cocaine trafficking industry while George spent the next few years in and out of prison. Kao's started building his next kingdom leading a successful revolution in war-torn Columbia was a tall order. The biggest problem was his main for Public. Support was also one of his closest business partners. Pablo ESCOBAR PABLO was popular powerful and successful and far less interested in the spotlight. Then in the success of his business he had worked hard to keep both his wealth and his cocaine operation from attracting attention instead cultivating a reputation as a self made Robin Hood. Who helped the poor? Carlos would have to work hard to match that reputation. His first step was create a home base a sprawling German style. Alpine resort called Persada Allamanah. Carlos poured three million dollars into Posada Mono- worth more than nine million dollars today. Having it constructed practically overnight if he couldn't have his island he wanted his ranch to be as impressive as Pablo's it also needed to serve as an effective base for trafficking operations which Were Still Humming a well oiled machine but Carlos also wanted Persona Allamanah to be an image to his idols. Hitler shake of Ara and now John Lennon Carlos had a garish life-sized naked statue of the recently murdered fetal built for the entrance to the estate. It was complete with a Nazi helmet. A bullet hole in the back and the Spanish word for peace on Lennon's hand to Carlos this all made perfect sense justice Carlos's profile was on the rise. Pablo Escobar announced a run for parliament. And then one Carlos decided. It was time to enact the next step of his plan. Carlos founded a Nazi inspired Nationalist Party the National Latin Movement. He began to hold grandiose rallies at which gave passionate speeches that parroted. Hitler's rhetoric Carlos focused on getting as much press as possible railing against the US and spouting every classic Nazi conspiracy theory. However he couldn't understand why his message about not extraditing drug criminals to the US wasn't getting wide support as Carlos was rallying the public US law enforcement hustled to build the case against him which had been open since Norman's Cay and what Carlos hadn't considered was how his showmanship might also embarrassed and annoy the Colombian government on September second nineteen eighty three. The Colombian Justice Minister signed the warrant for Carlos's arrest and extradition to the. Us barely two years. After his flight from Norman's Cay Carlos was once again forced to go into hiding this time in the haunt police Colombian furious at his own government's betrayal. Carlos had little to do except throw himself back into his cocaine trafficking operation. He knew how to bide his time. He would rebuild his empire under the radar and wait for the moment to reemerge but it had been years since Carlos had to manage the actual logistics of cocaine smuggling. It was a harsh wake-up call to realize he no longer had a monopoly on the market. He in George had pioneered now. Everyone was using private planes to smuggle cocaine to the US. Carlos is only advantages were his loyal relationships with Pablo and the Ocho. Us just twin. Carlos didn't think things could get worse. The Colombian justice minister was assassinated in April. One thousand nine hundred eighty four Pablo Escobar. Had the hit worried. That upstanding minister was becoming a threat. What Pablo hadn't considered was that he was declaring all out war on the Colombian government and that the government was going to retaliate. Suddenly Carlos. Pablo the OCHO. `As and all the rest of the cartel power players had targets on their backs. The government poured resources into the manhunt forcing all the kingpins to flee the country. Carlos thoughts escaping to Nicaragua might be better than hiding out in Columbia. He struck a deal with the Nicaraguan. Revolutionary guerillas known as the Sandinistas and got his smuggling flights going again from Nicaragua in base. But he still had his contacts in Colombia the Bahamas and the US as well as his reputation as one of the most reliable and effective traffickers in the game but being on the run proved hard for a narcissist like Carlos. He couldn't stand just disappear so instead of lying low he started his old preaching saying that Latin American countries shouldn't extradite to the US. He regularly contacted journalists published missives and went on the radio threatening Colombian and American officials alike. Kao's convinced himself that maintaining a high profile would help his business. It always had before but what he didn't realise was that it was now making him a liability to his partners as Carlos hopped around between Nicaragua Colombia and any country in the region who's dictator could be bought off. He found that his income was starting to struggle even though Pablo and all the others swore they were equal partners in the organization. Carlos couldn't shake the feeling that his stock was falling around the same time in one thousand nine hundred eighty five George was building his comeback. Yet again he escaped from prison and started planning one final trafficking job after several years behind bars. George had decided that he was ready to cash out of the drug industry for good all he needed was to get enough money to make it to Panama where his millions of dollars were stored in offshore accounts. Umberto promised him a three hundred kilo deal that would net him neely a million dollars. George contacted an acquaintance in Florida. A former keen to tap into drug money. He knew a couple of transport guys even better. The pilots hired had flown marijuana for George back in the late. Sixty s everything seems to be lining up and George had a good feeling in a couple months. He'd be basking on his own yacht in the Mediterranean but Georgia's luck had already run out the to transport. Guys were in fact undercover. Dea agents at first. They actually had no idea what George had been building over the past two decades and wouldn't have known had his old pilot buddy not told them as soon as the agents realize. George was one of the most well connected men in the cocaine trafficking world. They knew they'd hit the Jackpot that may on the day. Georgia's hoping to secure his escape. Money the a busted the whole operation. There was no talking his way onto the charges. This time George was sentenced to fifteen years in prison. There would be no payday in Panama and no quiet luxurious life on the Mediterranean. Just months into his sentence though. George heard through the prison grapevine that the FBI was hot on Carlos his tail and Mike cut a deal if someone could give them information. Naturally Georgia's old resentment bubbled up. He never been able to get back at Carlos for his betrayal. George had nothing left to lose so he contacted the FBI. The agents on the case were thrilled over the course of nearly two weeks. George told them everything he knew about his former friend and then he gave them an ace. He offered to personally help them catch Carlos. I the agents were wary of the offer. They've been chasing collars for years to no avail. It seemed unlikely George would do any better. But George countered. That Carlos was a man driven by his whims. He would come out into the open if he wanted to. And George knew exactly how to Bayton. The plan came together quickly the FBI would help. George set up a ruse that he'd been living lavishly in. The Caribbean word would get out to Carlos. Who'd have no reason to believe? George was involved with the feds George with then contact Carlos himself saying he had a hookup for a new business idea arms trading. He knew collars wouldn't be able to turn down such a lucrative opportunity which certainly appealed to his political delusions then when Carlos came to the meeting the FBI would arrest him. All the agents had to do was get the sign off from Washington. It would be a hard sell but if they wanted to get Carlos they were going to have to commit unbeknownst to the FBI. They weren't the only ones out to get Carlos in late. Nineteen eighty six. Carlos made a fatal mistake one day while hanging around at publicist estate townside medigene. He let his ego and machismo get the better of him. He shot one of Pablo's guys over meaningless argument to Pablo in the other cartel partners. It proved what they'd feared for a while. Carlos was an out of control liability by murdering one of Pablo's employees. He had just made himself. Expendable are on the morning of February. Fourth Nineteen eighty-seven while George in the FBI. Agents was still waiting for approval on their plan. Colombia law enforcement stormed Carlos. This estate outside many eating the Colombians wasted. No time in extraditing him and by that evening he was in. Da Custody in the US. Carlos was sure Pablo was the one who had given up his location although Pablo later wrote a public letter denying it. Caller swore up and down. He being framed but the DA wasn't interested. They had finally gotten their hands on one of the most wanted men in the world and they weren't letting him go. Carlos didn't stop trying to make a deal after all. That was always what he'd been best at that Spring before his trial. He wrote a letter to us. Vice President. George H W Bush. Who was leading Reagan so called war on drugs? Carlos offered to turn on the entire cocaine industry giving the US his full cooperation to bring in the other major players. Unfortunately Carlos the letter ended up in the newspaper which George obviously read though. He initially refused to testify against Carlos. There were still some honor amongst thieves after this. All questions of honor will off the table. Carlos certainly didn't have any so george reached out to Pablo before agreeing to testify against Carlos. He wanted to make sure he wasn't betraying the man who'd come to be known as the boss. Pablo immediately gave his blessing. George George went on to be one of the star witnesses in the trial against Carlos. His testimony was partially responsible for Carlos. His sentence of life without parole plus another one hundred and thirty five years. It took Carlos several years to find a loophole in order to strike deal and when he did it was by helping in the capture and conviction of Panamanian dictator Manuel Noriega Carlos was then moved into witness protection and his whereabouts are currently unknown Georgia's cooperation. Meanwhile got him out of prison in nineteen thousand nine but as much as he swore to himself that he was going to live a nice quiet life. He can never quite give up on the adrenaline of drug smuggling. He got back into the cannabis business and ended up back in jail Massachusetts. Less than five years later. Perhaps if George in Carlos's partnership hadn't fallen apart they could have ridden the wave of their success for longer if they're early astronomical profits hadn't gone to their heads. They might have allowed their differing philosophies to complement each other rather than drive them apart but then people who is satisfied with the status quo. Don't become the most innovative entrepreneurial duo in the history of cocaine trafficking Georgian. Carlos always wanted more from their lives and were willing to gamble everything. In order to achieve their ambitions the truth that Georgia and Carlos discovered is that more often than not the gambler loses. It was a wild ride while it lasted but in the end the life that gave them ultimately took it all away. Thanks again for listening to kingpins for more information on George Young and college later. Rivas among the many sources we used we found Bruce Portas book blow extremely helpful to our research. You can find more episodes of kingpins. And all other podcast originals. For Free on spotify not only does spotify already. Have all of your favorite music but now spotify is making it easy for you to enjoy all of your favorite podcast originals. Like kingpins for free from your phone. Desktop or smart speaker to stream kingpins on spotify just opening up and tied kingpins in the search bar and don't forget to follow us on facebook and Instagram at park cast and twitter at podcast network. We'll see you next time. Kingpins was created by Max Cutler and a podcast studios original executive produces include maxine Ron Cutler sound designed by Nick Johnson with production assistance by Ron Shapiro Carly Madden and Travis Clark. This episode of kingpins was written by Kate. Stolman with writing assistance by Kate. Gallagher and starts cake Leonard and Alistair Murdoch.

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