2402 - Michael Throwback: The Lava Jato Lawfare Coup Against Lula w/ Anthony Pereira
You are listening to a free version of majority report with Sam Cedar. To, support this show and get another fifteen minutes daily program. Good. Already Dot S. M.. please. John. It's Thursday August Thirteenth Two thousand, twenty, I'm. On a Mat Brendan, Jamie and met Bender Thursday broadcasts and closer to the industrial average guadalcanal ever before and the heartland of America Brooklyn USA. On today's program a throwback Michael Interview. This time is I interview on the Lula Lava Jaakko scandal in Brazil. It's amazing because this is in two thousand, sixteen very early after I started and Michael knows pretty much everything and has the right analysis right from the beginning Also on the program states reported more than fifteen hundred new desk caused by covid nineteen on Wednesday are deadliest day since May. Some more awful numbers. Seven point eight million children are in households behind on rent six, point five million didn't get enough to eat. Three point four million are in both situations. A top official says we reopened too quickly for a v-shaped recovery. The trump administration will now attempt to make that a matter of handwriting. Just, under a million unemployment claims filed last week. The first time that number wasn't over a million cents March. The bad news is these numbers are expected to be more permanent than the early filings and the pace of higher in his slow. As economic catastrophe accelerates McConnell the trump administration look ready to hold further corona virus relief hostage into. September. Also. Mail sorting equipment is being pulled from the post office is trump's deliberate sabotage on the US Postal Service continues. And in Bolivia this day eleven of the General Strike and blockade in protests of the right wing coup government leader, Janine Anez, repeatedly d'alene the Bolivian. Elections. who would have thought that an unelected reactionary would have trouble administering elections that would remove them from power at that. She didn't win democratically to begin with all that more on today's which. very. You know I've tried to write these headlines and you've run a red jokes into it, and then it's like, oh, millions of kids. Hungry and. Facing possible fiction a grim times a High Brendan. How are you? Hey, at I. Can I can into the thighs with that there's nothing funny about that at all. No, it's brutal I hope everyone's doing well listening to this I, know there's a lot of pain going on right now because of the flack of response that this government's having for the coronavirus Another news today would have been. Michael's thirty seventh birthday. So Michael, Thursday, throwback So happy birthday out there Michael, and. Let's just want to set up this interview. Quick Forget make sure have ready This was. April nineteenth two, thousand, sixteen again. I have to say, this is exactly three years to the day that Los Angeles live show was which is maybe the triumphal moment tim bs and my mind So three years before that l. e. live show, he was doing his first full show on what was going on with Lula the lava, Joe Tow la fair coup, and the was gonNA Dilma Rousseff to. and Michael's analysis is and the questions he asks here are various student right from the beginning I mean he'd been doing this for a while he did something with bender to but. This. Is Him Really Kinda. Come into his own and and it's funny. People always made fun. Of Michael How much he talked in interviews. and. I can say that. That's hard to do and sound not like an idiot i. I interviewed one of Michael's friends drew Mickael with your Skin Lisa Brooks on tm Bs on Tuesday night about their Beirut explosion on the rage and Interview in something that I'm going to have to learn to do a little bit better and it's difficult. and. So I watch these early Michael Interviews with a lot of admiration because he's very good at setting things up putting things on the table put too much things on the table but. I think it's better to put too much on the table and two little So yeah. We're going to go with this This now this is with a Anthony Pereira we've is professor Michael will introduce him. and. About a half hour long interview. And we will see we'll have a we'll do a clip with Jamie and I made him that Bender I. Think before the Fund half. So we'll see you folks in about A. Half and Hour. Welcome back to the majority report I Michael Brooks and joining us now is Professor Anthony Pereira he is the director of the Brazil institute at King's College London professors. Thank you for joining us. Thank you Michael. So wanted to. Speak with you about this unfolding crisis in Brazil. There is a pretty Broad narrative to this that you see in. The American press actually apparently emanating from allowed the Brazilian press that this is a simple question of. Corruption civil society uprising. Seems to be a bit more complicated than that but nor does situate the conversation. Can. You help anchor us and understanding who these two figures are that's Lula Louise or Lula de Silva President Dilma rousseff former president. And he's the founder of the Workers Party, which they are both members of. Take us into their history maybe starting with Lula. Right. Yeah. These two figures Lewellen Jomon away represent two of the most important forces in the in the Workers Party was formed at the end of the nineteen seventies. and one anchor of it was the trade union movement. So the trade union movement in the ABC region auto mostly auto workers had some strikes nineteen seventy-nine that really defied the military dictatorship. Brazil had a dictatorship from sixty four to seventy nine A. sorry to eighty five and Lula as the leader of the auto workers in that region emerged as one of the key. Leaders of the opposition to the military dictatorship So he became president of the Party early on he was always the most important leader. He ran for president in eighty, nine, ninety, four, Ninety, eight. And finally, one president presence in two thousand A to Joma. Comes out of the armed left because there were some mostly young people mostly students who decided in the late sixties when the regime got much more repressive and crackdown, they decided to take up arms. Answer there were lots of kind of splintered left groups. The Communist Party was actually a not in favor of armed action against dictatorship and a lot of them were very severely dealt with. So Jomo herself was arrested tortured quite badly and ended up three years as a as a prisoner. and so those two forces came together in the late Seventies. Early eighties a new also joined by people in who were influenced by Liberation Theology. And the Workers Party also attracted a lot of middle class intellectuals people from the university's people from the public sector and it was a really small party at the beginning, and in fact, a lot of its features were that it was more of a sort of conglomeration of social movements. Then it wasn't actual political party and there was a really interesting internal debate in the party in the nineteen eighties of how much. How much like a professional party they should become. and they but they did become a very professionalized party. They started winning mayorships governorships, and as I said they, they got the presidency in two thousand into the the Lula's administration started in two thousand and three, and they've now had been the major party in in a coalition government at the national level for fourteen years since apart, what about getting getting the Workers Party out of that position absolutely, and we'll we'll certainly get to that but so to enter just to. Underlie this history. It actually reminds me in some ways and correct me if I'm wrong but there was a debate in the eighties in European particularly German Green Party between the kind of real os or funding is in that similar kind of debate or are we sort of a? Political party that is activists or do we want to actually take an assumed power and Lulu I believe ran for presidency the presidency Brazil three times before winning in two thousand and two. What did he have to do both in terms of the kind, a practical mechanisms inside the Workers Party and in terms of his broader image just even from a PR perspective for the public or from a policy perspective his commitments on macroeconomic policy to get there on the fourth try. That's that's a great question because that is a pivotal moment in the history of the party. As you said, it had kind of. Green Party social movement feel to it for a long time and it was always internally quite democratic and very programmatic and ideological. It was not into the kind of. Trading of favors that's common and other parties in Brazil at that time in its history after Lula lost the third time in ninety eight, he went to the Party and he said I'll I will be willing to run again but I need to have more control over the campaign. It's going to be a Lula campaign and not a PT campaign. And he the party. Conceded to that request and he ran in two thousand and two with a conservative sort of center right vice presidential candidate from the Liberal Party was actually evangelical. he made a broad coalition. He talked he he wrote a letter to the Brazilian people in the summer of two thousand and two in which he said that he would respect contracts and he works respect the the the the debt that Brazil had that time with the IMF. So he sort of accepted the the macroeconomic framework that exists at that time, which is quite which was quite neoliberal and he ran on a much broader coalition. Any changes image he talked about peace and love he had nicely tailored suits. He trimmed his beard he looked a lot more. You look a lot less threatening, less militant, more cuddly. Exactly came cuddly became kind of funkier softened his tone and. So he won in two thousand and two and I would say between two thousand and two, and then two thousand and six. When he gets reelected, he actually also shared the spoils of of of governance more he he brought in to. A greater extent, that's the kind of center right party that's now against Joe but they were his allies at that point and I think one of the really interesting things that happens between the two thousand and two and two thousand six election is that Lula is a lot of his middle class support. Between two thousand and two, thousand, seven, six partly because his economic policies were trying to target the poor. The rich were doing very well the poor were doing quite well, and the middle class wasn't really getting that much. They abandon him to quite a large extent. But he picks up the unorganized poor The people were really on low incomes and that comp that's more than more than compensates for his loss of middle-class support but it it's very different. So base of support for worker party presidents since the two thousand six election and you can pretty much go down the income scale as you go down in income, you're more likely to find people who vote for PT presidential candidates because there's no doubt just as as an addendum that it seems very clearly established that. You know. Regardless of any, you know decisions or corruption or anything else both the administrations of Lula Dilma have certainly delivered in some ways for the extreme poor like that support on the poor is not just symbolic. It's been very real. It's been real delivery that's made a difference in income food security and everything else that has been a very successful in real part of both to their records and probably particularly less. Strikes me though as you say this, which is fascinating and I want you to kind of use this question to lead us into the present accusations and present crisis. But in the western press or not the in the American press, the European cameras when. Lula, was I kind of emerging on the stage? and. Through, like as you say his first term and and then there was a kind of broad period I. Think you know Lula Left Office does Probably the most popular politician, the world who actually faces Democratic Accountability he was extraordinarily popular. Idea that you know that was always reported that you know he started on the hard left, and now he's you know he's kind of you know he centre-left is she's kind of a Social Democrat people even compared to sort of the Tony Blair Bill Clinton vein which I think is stretch to be fair to Lula frankly. But but but what struck me especially as the scandal has kind of unfolded was that Part of quote unquote moderating in Brazilian politics is making peace and alliances with systemic corruption. So in a certain sense, it's this inversion. Now, we're all all of a sudden. You Know Lula Dilma have been so corrupt supposedly but. Accepting an aqueous to a certain degree of that was part and parcel of the first moderation image which everybody wanted to praise him for. So if you kind of riff on that and then use that to open up what's happening now that would be great. Sure I mean I think what you bring up is a really important point in its Y that there are people on the left in Brazil who feel really let down by the Workers Party who thought that the Workers Party because it was At least in opposition principled ethical, and talked about transforming Brazil and transforming the traditional corrupt way of doing politics in. Brazil. They feel let down because rather than the T.. Really changing the political system they they were in fact changed by it and they became more like all those other politicians and parties that they criticized when they were in opposition But in some ways you know I think it was. and I think Lula has a lot to do with this. Lulu was never really a highly ideological. He wasn't someone who was steeped in the history of the Labor, movement, for example, or about socialism he was a very pragmatic. negotiator he was a good negotiator. He would get good deals for his members and I. think that was always that kind of trade union leader who would talk to everybody and seek consensus and he had around him when he was elected in two thousand and two, a team of people like Josiah do sale who was his chief of staff and Pelosi who was his finance minister who were also extremely powerful, extremely pragmatic and Towards power and they realized we have to have. We can maintain party discipline and we can be focused on program but we know that all of these other parties are not right and so we're going to have to play ball with them and we're GONNA have to give them parts of the federal budget. We're going to have to give them ministries, and of course, you know I think there's pretty compelling evidence that. They got involved in the same sorts of corruption that other parties in politicians have been involved in. So in a way, it was the price that they felt I think that they were willing to pay to to change Brazil and to do some of the things they did, which was, for example, this conditional cash transfer program which lifted people out of poverty, the The. Increasing access to university and technical education through a really big loan program to to student loan and grant program to low income students affirmative action in the universities. Trying to promote gender equality. All of these things. So you know in their minds I think. These pragmatic compromises were what they what they needed to do to deal with the with the reality of the Brazilian political system. What some of the specifics of some these corruption allegations, targeting Dilma, and Lula and How has the judiciary? It seems again like there's probably some legitimacy to some of these charges and if you could outline them, that would be helpful. But you know it does seem at the very least that as an example, you know leaking conversations that are part of an investigation between Lula and Dilma. An effort to embarrass them is you know at the very least Russian -able even as they have been targeted. All of the major political parties are implicated in this. So you know I. Play that play out that contradiction there. Well you're absolutely right. We saw this spectacle on Sunday of the members of the lower house voting to impeach Dilma and the guy presiding over that session. Was it. Why Do Kunia? WHO's been charged by the attorney general of receiving a five million dollar bribe to get a company, a contract from Petrobras the state on oil company and of also having undeclared bank accounts in Swiss banks with millions of dollars in them. So you know this is not a spectacle in which clean politicians are are impeaching a corrupt one There's you corruption is endemic in in Congress? What the what the car wash investigations have re. Field indication led by Judge called Sergio mortar included Chiba. What they found was that what they're alleging is that. Big that had contracts with the rise would routinely. Over at the invoice or overbill for those contracts and kickbacks. And Guff executives in the oil company but they would also be funneled to politicians for campaigns and if you read the Brazilian press you you'd be forgiven for. Kennedy was the only party benefiting from the scheme, but it was a very, very widespread scheming off the law parties in the in the coal a professor, professor? People. Have you moved or anything because your you're connection was excellent and we've just gotten a bit choppy. Moved away from the mic there Oh. Yes. Get get back to the MIC. Please thank you said that better that significantly better yes. Great. Okay. Go right a so so there's about Fifth Congress who have been implicated in this. Car Wash investigation for this kickback scheme and that includes. The lower house includes Michel Temer The thing is dilma. There's no evidence that's produced yet that. Dilma. Benefited from any of this corruption but she was. Chairman of the board on Petrobras during Lula's second term. So you know, there might what her critics alleges that there's a sin of omission if not commission in terms of her role. In Petrol. Rising. But that that's not actually the subject of the impeachment. Charge. What, what exactly? Because? That's the other kind of odd thing about it with regards to dilma what what is the impeachment charge against her and how does she sort of get? Dragged into what as you already outlined? First of all the parties are implicated. In fact, it seems on the face of it and again not to you know. Obviously, I have a personal soft spot for Lula. That's clear and I have a kind of more general sympathy of the Workers Party but. You. Know the evidence against Lula might be there but it certainly more tenuous than it is for many other bleeding players in this where it seems a lot more clear in terms of. Money in accounts and things actually moved but with dilma it seems like I I, mean there's literally nothing there it just. You know it's as if they got the Republicans had the votes together just impeach Obama because they don't like them. Gets. Not Very robust case. You do get constitutional lawyers saying that this is an impeachable offense. But. Just, just to point out how paradoxical the whole thing is You know she's accused of signing orders that. delay. Pain banks so that the the the fiscal deficit at lower than it actually was This is something. These sane orders have been signed by Michel, Temer Vice President WHO's scheduled to take over for her from her as an interim president wants the Senate accepts these impeachment proceedings? So I think it's it looks like a double standard. It looks like selective invocation of the law and in fact this these are common practices in in in in mayorships in governorships they've been done by previous presidents jurisprudence that stick that declares that these are unconstitutional acts is very recent. And we have to remember to in November of two thousand fourteen right after her reelection. There were people calling for impeachment then right? Didn't have a reason for it. They just were upset that she had won reelection in. This is the fourth consecutive Workers Party Presidential Victory So I think it was something that was convenient and what was noticeable about the Sunday vote in the lower house is that almost nobody voting? Yes mentioned these PEDALA's these they're called through these sort of creative bookkeeping. Acts of Joma. They talked about the petrol, the Petrobras corruption they talked about morality. They talked about their families they talked about You know how the company was ungovernable and how the economy had to improve I. mean it was it was you know it was so diffused everything was invoked almost ex. Very, rarely, the actual charges were mentioned well, that's that's actually brings me to a couple of interconnected things here too because as I say. Lula left office I believe it was in two, thousand, twelve or two, thousand, ten, I don't remember the specific. Thousand Ten. Ten and he left as I say as with one of the most I, think the highest approval rating of anybody in the world who was actually. He wasn't Qaddafi right like these were real pales everybody loved him he's incredibly popular and the Dilma who did not who has this fascinating personal background, but did not have an electoral political background. He kind of picked her she didn't have the same kind of charisma that he had, but she's obviously. You know. Very smart, very capable and with his stamp of approval she was elected and then reelected on her own merits in two, thousand fourteen and so it seems like. One track that's happened here is that the Brazilian economy has just stalled and you got has and that always creates general anger. So that's kind of. So those tracks of okay. You don't have a president who's as charismatic persuasive, the economy stalled, and then the third track seems to be that. You know the level of opposition from the media to the opposition parties to the judiciary. Seems kind of. You know it sort of seems to indicate we could never win. It looks like Lula might run again in two, thousand, eight and eighteen and were not like we just have to stop them somehow and Lula ironically for a guy who you know really moderated to get himself where he was and with all that entailed. He's out speaking international pressing look. This is kind of old style, latin-american coup and almost as if the lesson after all this time in power. And even in today's modern circumstances that the old oligarchy dynamics still at play and even moderation as much as the Workers Party and the delivery across sectors is still not going to work because fundamentally the elites don't want us to govern, and that seems like the fault lines have turned into. Yeah I. Agree with that I think I think the contrast between the really rough time that Joan was having and the a much easier time. Lahat I I. Think it. It's based on three limitations of Workers Party rule. I. Guess The fourth could be there is Sahni and the key in society as well. That's a factor that plays against a job in the same way that it plays against Hillary Clinton saying in the system but the three limitations are one is I think Lula. Personalized the party in a way that probably wasn't healthy. So he so rather than a competitive election inside the party that you had in two thousand and ten was him as this very popular president saying I'm going to pick this woman who's my chief of staff who's never won an election to anything and she's going to be my successor and I think that sort of went against the tradition of the Workers Party which was to be programmatic to be internally democratic and You know to be more about to to be a party that was kind of bigger than any individual in it too. So people started talking in two thousand, ten about. Or is. As opposed to P. T. is a worker, the workers. So the person started become more important in the party and that's a limitation I think. and. You can see it in the lack of other candidates. So so as the only plausible candidate for them in two thousand eighteen, the second limitation I think is that they did help the poor but they helped the poor mostly through mechanisms that increase the purchasing power of the poor. So increasing access to credit the social, the social transfers so got social income fuel really poor. Access to a training and education that lowered the skills gap in the labor market, what they weren't able to do as much as structurally transformed the country. So for example, improve the quality of education improve the quality healthcare. Provide good public transportation. So as as purchasing power is going up amongst the lower income and you've got the growth of Brazilians called Classy between you know sort of thousand, four, thousand realized it. They call it a middle class, but it's really we'd probably understand as a working class. You didn't get the corresponding improvements in public goods that would have made people's lives better. So you had more people buying cars and worse traffic. You had a crime was bad because public security wasn't keeping up with the with the rates of crime you had you know sort of. Situations for a lot of commuters in cities and and that was a big limitation and I think the final imitation is that when they went in two thousand six and they sent that pattern of getting most of their votes from the low income. It worked electorally. But what it meant was a lot of the shapers of opinion in institutions like the judiciary institutions like the media. To a lesser extent universities there's still a lot of support workers party in in universities but outside of that most middle class people are Anti Workers Party. It set a dynamic in which they could win elections, but they didn't have a big cross class coalition that could make the case for their for their legitimacy. Throughout the whole society and you've got this polarization and you know if you're if you're dependent in mostly on the bottom half of the income distribution, you can win the votes when it comes time to debates like these things in the about the impeachment the loudest voices in these discussions are often that anti workers, party invoices, and you've got an electorate Brazil sixty percent of the people don't identify with any party. And The Workers Party has the highest party identification and the electric, but it's only about ten eleven percent and it's probably is probably. You know a little while ago. It's probably fallen since then. And there they have to deal with the Congress which has. About, twenty eight different parties you know. So I think that that lack of across cost coalition is really in terms of their. Their electoral support means that they're constantly getting hammered by the media by the mainstream media and and I think the judiciary as well as been high. As you point out with these leaks, it's been highly selective in the information that it's leaked and it's ten. It's tended to target the Workers Party even though the corruption is much more generalized and systematic, that's interesting I mean as we move towards the final sort of question here, but just to underlie that it seems like. In these two. Sort of failings of the Workers Party in and again I mean obviously. There's a major problem in terms of the way judiciary other political parties and the media have acted in are acting I think arguably their seriously undermining the democratic credibility Brazil in some respects but it's very interesting that in the failures to kind of. Keep A broad-based coalition. And then in the kind of failures to. Address more structural deficits There wasn't there. There isn't the kind of. Structural intact like there's. People's lives better which you can never underestimate but there isn't. It's like you know as because Dilma have to do austerity and then you know when you cleaned up, we did report you know on what happened during the World Cup and you know certainly to workers party government was quite brutal and enforcing the edicts of of the world. Cup and that's contradictory on every level of the kind of traditional worker party ethos so. By not doing those kind of deeper more durable jobs ironically, that wasn't pragmatic because it set the stage for its own crisis in a certain way. Absolutely and you know one way to look at this impeachment and it doesn't. It doesn't jive with the with the sort of Gulp or do rhetoric is that this is an inside job and this is the PT's own coalition partner the PM be deciding to to dump them. And to get rid of the president and they're and they're doing it very well because the has been so dependent on these guys, it's a bit like house of cards you know the Michelle. The vice president is leading the coalition, the lower house to vote against his own president. But I think you could fault the Workers Party on environmental issues and indigenous issues as well. When you saw how the Joma government reacted to Bella monchy controversy the big dam in the Amazon. You know in these structural transformations are hard. I mean they would, for example, they could have tried to. Change the tax system you know Brazilians. The. Overall level of taxation economies high but the highest tax rate is twenty, seven percent. There's there's very little taxation of wealth land and property. They could have tried to take that on. You know they could. They could have tried structural reforms. Those were difficult to do and I suppose you could say that. they're paying the price for nine in a way I mean it under Lula. Not only poverty decreased but income inequality as measured by the Gini Coefficient. Came out and and that was really significant is that hadn't happened in a long time and Brazil Brazil is still one of the most unequal countries in the world when it comes to the distribution of income. But what what did not get looked at during that period was, of course, inequality of wealth, and this is why Thomas petits book is is very relevant to Brazil because wealth inequality mean we don't really know we don't have statistics but wealth inequality may well be a greater the even the income inequality. There are lots of ways for the wealthy to hang onto their wealth in Brazil and. That was something that they Workers Party Ju- just wasn't able or willing to take on and I. think that's where a really interesting debate on the left is happening is sort of. What could the Workers Party have done that that they that they didn't do how much allowance do you have to give for the realities of the Brazilian? Political system and I think there are some people who are a little bit star. WHO said you know who say that the Workers Party could a- absolutely transformed Brazil? We have to remember Lula got something like sixty percent of the vote typically in his two elections for in the second round, his party never got more than about thirty percent of the vote. So they were coming into Congress, where they had maybe twenty percent of the seats in in in in both houses and they have to transform those twenty percent into a majority in Congress. That's how difficult the system is. So I, think you do have to. You do have to make some lounge his for how that how that system works. Absolutely I mean as a final question and this is the sort of generic impossible to answer question but take it in any direction you want to take it in. What's the sort of General? What happens next from? The most immediate to even the relevancy of that conversation inside the left in Brazil I mean whatever you think is most relevant terms of what's going to come out of this. Sure Yeah, I watched that vote on Sunday and there's a kind of climate of of a big party. You know when the when the. The the three, hundred, and forty second. Deputy voted to impeach. There's this does this sense that this is a big? is going to be a big change in Brazilian politics I. Think is just one one little step an unfolding drama. It's not gonNA be easy for any government right now in Brazil to govern whether it's led by gentleman safflower Michel Temer because the country is so polarized. It and it's also paralyzed the the government is able to do the kinds of reforms that it needs to get out of recession. Now, you're looking at maybe a second year a row where the economy contracts by almost four percent. This is a this is a big big crisis for Brazil but I think. In some ways it wouldn't be terrible for from the point of view of the laughed and the workers. Party They're not the same thing but to to go out of power at this point to not have their pro. Because they could they could rethink what their values are. They could prepare to be to run as an opposition party in two thousand eighteen and they could sort of have the kind of moment that the Labour party's been having here in. Britain would Jeremy Corbyn as its leader? You Know Corbin is not really a plausible prime minister. I don't think in anybody's mind but he's brought in a huge sort of grassroots resurgence people joining the Party and remembering what they were really all the what they were interested in before Blair and new labour sort of made them a you know A. Kind of copy of the Conservatives. So so I think it wouldn't be entirely unhealthy for the Workers Party to be out and to sort of rejuvenate itself. But then also for really apple debate to happen because it's not clear that the party's GonNa stay together. You may have people saying what you've already had a lot of defections but you may you may have more especially after the municipal elections that are coming up in October You may have people like Tarso Gino from rea-. GRUNGE. Say and You know this this party it's it's not it's not gonNa work anymore for as a vehicle for our aspirations we have to we have to found found found something else. That could happen fascinating professor, Anthony Pereira I appreciate your time a mentally and professor prayer is the director of the Brazil institute at King's College in London. Thank you so much professor I. Hope we have a chance to talk again sometime soon and kind of continue following what's happening even beyond the crisis point. Thanks a lot. Michael Thank you. Folks. There you have it. Another. Fun fact about that episode that for nineteen to sixteen episodes that's the first Michael Day that Michael and I did solo in the studio There's Kelly that day says just Michael and I think that's probably the first time I ever did. The. Show producer by myself at at all, which was you know Brennan I think you've done that before it I've done it a few times and I also, I, one time of Year Atherton BS I've produced a show without ever on the pre production or anything like that which was fun. Interested I forgot about that. Yeah let's let's Jamie and Mapinduzi and now. Yeah but I don't know some pretty good. I mean, maybe some people might take exception to the Corbin thing although it kind of looked like. That was the prevailing sentiment among British voting public, but Over over I think very interesting interview and it's funny. How much of the talking points from Michael we're the same and were validated hey, map yet. Hey what's up? Do you hear me I? Do Yup Perfect I. got my new set up for you guys today cameras something. Yeah. Right. Look. You could see me really good. Can You? Jealous. Just, just in time for Michael's birthday gotTA. Look good for Michael's birthday. which there's a new camera. Is a new camera I'm using. Like, legit like murless Panasonic, Webcam like Oh. Okay. I got connected to. This the input device that goes to my computer, and then I got my I still got the USB Mike but that's the next upgrade. I mean I I will say I kind of like the soft focus of my computer Webcam. 'cause I feel less of compulsion to like put on makeup or whatever, and you know I am above all things quite lazy but you know I I already got Sam to spring for this Mike Stand. So maybe Who knows maybe we can get a little extra technology going I don't WanNa. Put it. You got the better audio me right now 'cause I'm looking in that in exile our X. L. R. X., L. Our cable going into your mic, which means that it's analog which means that sounds better than my digital Mike. And this is a this is primarily an audio show. So I mean you are you focused on the right thing whereas I I'm I, guess I'm vain and wanted to look good. Well I. Guess when it comes to my face, maybe I like to leave the watching more I. Don't know who I like that. We. Do this clip about Eric Trump's talking about v-shaped recovery. Gee The v that the British people do is that this one where it's like it means like Fu. This one. Here's my v-shaped recovery. Here you go. Take. That for your covers victory. Folks. So. Yeah. Noted economist Eric Trump appeared on Fox and friends today with the unenviable task of spinning these latest unemployment numbers to make it look a little bit rosier. We've got nearly a million new jobless claims. This week billions are under threat of addiction and. Pandemic is still killing people, but maybe you're just looking at it the wrong way. We've got a Fox News alert look number right there. The weekly jobless claims for first time unemployment is out and nine, hundred, sixty, three, thousand filed for unemployment benefits for the first time. Last week listen Saudi great number of Britain in the scheme of things it is a great number that's less than what experts predicted in the first time claims fell below a million in twenty one weeks about fifty seven million Americans have filed for unemployment since the pandemic started, that is the lowest number under a million since March let's bring in Eric Trump executive vice president for the trump organization and son of our president good. Morning Eric. Your morning guys can mornings. We're great. When you hear that that news, what are your thoughts? Well. Let's if you look at the last three months right and look at the last three months nine point three, million Americans went back to work. If you look at last month alone if you look at July right, one point eight, million jobs were created which blew away expectations and you look at. This month you look at the claim that you're talking about right now you know well under a million, which again blew away expectations. My father always said that you're GONNA have a v-shaped recovery and look at where the Dow Jones is right now Jones at twenty eight thousand right now look at where the Nasdaq is is all time highs. The Dow was literally a thousand points off of all time highs you what that means for. You know 401k's and pension plans and our economy in general our economies roaring back to life it is roaring back to life and we should all be very proud of that as Americans as much as. Mainstream media wants to ignore it. Guys. Well It's roaring folks you hear that so like I guess, let's talk about. A few different parts of this? So then we'll open it up to broader discussion. The jobs being created are largely good ones. I don't have the numbers in front of me. But I have seen new stories about Amazon going on a giant hiring spree like they don't care if the jobs are good jobs, they just WANNA force people to work for not enough wages with not enough safety but the stock market. Okay. You know maybe I'm homeless I can't pay my rent I can't afford to buy food but my 401k, which is money that I don't actually get to have for years and years that's doing great. Nothing nothing to see here folks, right. Yeah I mean. It's so aggravating it reminds me of the CNBC. segment from earlier of this was about an end of May Aaron Rob Andrew Ross, Sorkin, and Joe. Kernan get a a pretty heated argument because you'll kerns like the numbers are great. Andrew why you? Why are you telling everyone to panic? Yeah Yeah exactly and Andrews like well, people are dying and there's a tremendous amount of suffering. It's like and. I just want to play this habit here. Actually had we can look at WHO's I mean I don Andrew a circuit is exactly desa but I mean, we could see who side of the argument came out that what's happening. Coincident and I. For a while it was how can stocks be where they are because of oil prices? Remember that was your take. Then how can it be based on where interest rates are right now then it could be, how can stocks be and that was every single discussion you have over the weekend about how can stock prices be here when the economy is here right now it's going to be your earn just to be clear. It's because the Fed gave them trillions of dollars. That's that's why. Our database. CNBC CNBC doesn't really wanNA tell their explicitly say on broadcast here when the economy is here right now it's going to be your earnings, but you see how that probably isn't the. Right in your, we're going to have David Lebowitz on. He's going to say every client he talks to asking him how can the stock market be here? When everything else is. and. That's the question. And there are a lot of smart people who have that view. That the smart people they've they've been wrong for thirty five percent. Why are they smart just because they can see what's right in front of their knows that doesn't make them smart it makes. It all the way back onto drought savvy about jar. You Miss It. You Miss Joe you missed it a hundred percent on the way down and you missed the one, hundred, thousand deaths. So we can have this debate back and forth and you can try to to question the questions I'm asking but never including. Miller when he was on the market. On hold on. Hold on I'm not GonNa do this with you joe every morning every morning you try to question the questions I'm asking these are these are questions that investors are asking every single morning. I am just trying to get through some of this clutter. I may be right may be wrong investors may be right. They may be wrong. That's what makes them market, but it doesn't make people good person or a bad person it doesn't make it doesn't make right. The way you are sorry you can. Yesterday with masters like, why are you yelling not Joe. You just iota again I don't know I'm just trying to. I'm sorry. Now you're not no, you're not Joe I'm sorry. Okay and with the news. You panicked about the market panicked about Cova panicked about the ventilators panicked about the p. p. panic about ever going out again panic. Act by the way P Scher still occur in various hospitals around the country. We still haven't sorted that problem even though it's you know. I don't want to even say it's minor. We should absolutely love and enormous if you didn't. What good is it? Out in. Their head I. People Dodgy Oh and all you did was try to help your friend the president. That's what you did. Every morning on this show. Every Show. Negligent. Holy on you and you can abused you help investors, keep their cool keep her hands and as it turned out, that's what you should have done. That's what they should news. They should have their heads if they had listened to you Andrew we're supposed to be about. Okay. So I think that's about enough of that but I want to bring that up just in relation to this. I was at the trump administration or. I forget the news but admitting like, yeah, we we threaten. WHAT'S IT Kudlow wouldn't admit something like this in some bureaucrat that said Yeah. We reopen too quickly to have v-shape Ricard's fed chair and boss. Yeah we we'd love to have had one like the other countries that actually shut things down and took care of this. And got this shit under control but we don't have that because we reopened too fast. Can we talk about the concept of a v-shaped recovery in the first place? What does that mean thanks get worse and then they get better again, it just seems like a really good way to spin it when things are getting worse like no, this is only the first part of the V. The second part is coming. Address this in the most razor thin way possible, which is just to prop up the stock market and your 401k and just make the appearance that everything is kid while people suffer daily you know are going hungry. I remember I remember in twenty eleven in the studio ragging on Andrew Ross Sorkin reaction to occupy Wall Street with Sam so I mean just to hear that from him. A decade later still a decade later nonetheless. People are are realizing due to various different things that have been occurring. What's going on? You know it's it's like you mentioned like he's not interested Sirkin is in say, but this guy clearly has. Has Perhaps opened up to some things that are going on in now screwed up at all it's like The idea that you can't look beyond the media and it's probably he's probably right from a terms of what the? Audience wants like how can I make money this moment? Right? Like an probably the idea was to keep riding and not worry about all the deaths and what kind of long term damage and depression that could sink us into. But when they talk about the 401K's they do have a bit of a point there right because. Sure, most of the people making money off of the stock market are the one percent and we don't care about them. Bunn normal people's retirement savings are tied up in this insane system, it being held hostage so they can then turn around and say, Oh, well, we're trying to sacrifice lives for the system, but we're doing it for your own good people. Yeah. Yeah. So horrible that like watching the little tickers on CNBC is what people do to retain plan their retirements. Well defined benefit pensions used to be a big and now they are not a thing to the point where Sean. Actually had to explain it to me when he had one what exactly it was what it did. You the interesting thing about foreign case I've been noticing recently just how how it's used to sort of separate people in terms of, for example, yesterday there was that story about wall. Street. was partying it up over Joe Biden Picking Kamala Harris for his. Vp and I saw people on the left criticizing it. Obviously. All wonderful. They got someone they like and you saw Democrats and liberals. Going I'm glad Wall Street is happy because my 401k means doing going to do good. You know it's like it's like I. I really do think it's a tool to like. Like really like separate like people who should be on the same side but are slightly different classes, you know in terms of Wall Street lease and nobody has buick had to retire get on four one K.. That's the same thing about this. It's relatively new innovation from the neoliberal era designed to you take a shift, the benefit that shift the burden from at the bosses to the workers. And other external factors for having a safe retirement and I don't know I don't really trust it. I've only ever had a 401k for like a year. I still have eight hundred dollars somewhere in a fun from that just this exotic creature that comes in and out of my life mostly out. But I feel like I do better just hiding money under a mattress at this point with. Like the generation of people, two generations if you conclude Jennifer to this point who for the most part have had success with the 401k like their money has grown but with the millennials are than jazzy if they even have a 401k, the majority of the time has been spent losing money in it have not gained anything from it so in. And now's a good time if you have parents who have retirements and look at the stuff closely to say like you know what you've worked all your life for the shit you really think you should be f into monitor what's going on on fucking Wall Street to determine the dignity of your retirement and I guess and guess what none of them will say yes, I think I should have to do that So get in there folks with that message also get in there and convinced them to use some of that retirement fund money on Patriots for. That Jamie Brandon you've gotta Patriot I can't remember. Should start one. Is the ultimate retirement plan and I think. A lot of millennials Zuma's are banking on. So to the degree that we spread communism and. Hasten the abolition of the value form I'd say it's a great investment your here. I. Folks the Pitcher for anti-fraud a down payment on communism. WHO WANTS TO GO? First. Matt you want to go or sure sure. We'll looking forward to joining all of you in the second half of the show but for those of you who are leaving us now you can find me at youtube dot com slash Matt. There is livestream. Live show tonight nine P M eastern time on Youtube I'll be talking with Ngelo Caruso. Sewn excuse me with media matters and we will be discussing the rise of Cunanan in Washington. We're going to run through how basically Chu is going to have a place on. Capitol Hill come November almost assuredly with at least one race possibly more and you know really how the right wing has. And the trump sycophants had stoked Cunanan to to get to where it is today really, and we're going to go through all that it'll be a great show YouTube dot com slash map inder also patriot, dot com slash map bender, and bender on all social media channels if you want to follow me on twitter facebook instagram or wherever. I'll go first IRA second I guess yeah. On Tuesday night a Dr. Drew Mickael. joined. David Grisko Leash Brooks and I to discuss the Beirut explosion and the rage basically, if last fall's, what's that protests were cross sectarian people coming across sectarian lines for a jubilant coming together against the elite This blast has met meant sort of anger and rage across the -tarian lines at the elite. So we got drew's take on the explosion and the failure of the room elite there and as far as literal hangover goes I will stream this weekend a promise you folks. So twitch TV slash literary hangover. We will be doing a stream this weekend. Heck Yeah I listen to some of that interview 'cause I. Really WanNa learn more about what's going on in Lebanon and found it very informative. I really liked the slogan All of them means all of them seems like it has some real revolutionary even anti-state potential. THAT'S PRETTY It's pretty nuts over there right now like the the day after people were there was like fires going around about like prepare the nooses and stuff like that. So. I mean they they were storing. Thousands of pounds of ammonium nitrate in a port next to grain silo, and they're already having problems with. Like we are but during coronavirus and keep everybody fed and stuff and. Awful stuff. So yeah, check that interview out. I can't wait for Kowalski to call in and explain to us the explosive properties of grain. Call Lines will be open a day map vendor and our. Tech Lord. Put in tireless work to make it happen so. Call it heck. Yeah. Thanks guys. So I guess I'll do by now this week on the Anti Fatah, we had on the elusive Virgil Texas of Chapo, Trap House to talk about all of these open letters older leftist are ready to younger leftists about how they need to vote for workforce support get married to little unclear press about Joe Biden. Talk about that. We talk about the COVID crisis and It's great folks you're GonNa. Love it. There you go. All right. Folks also joined the majority of Dot Com to become a member of this program keeps US going. This show you know the other. One. You're actually here for A. Yeah we will see you on the fun half. Are An foreign folks six, four, sixty, five, seven, thirty, nine, twenty, she in the. Alpha males back. By. The Alpha males back back just. Managing the Alpha males of back back back back. By the Alpha males. Backed by just want to degrade the white man how? Back. Alpha males. Back. Has the males. Full. Alpha male. By JODEL. We bring back. Or. A couple of just put them in rotation these. Well, the problem with those is there like forty five seconds long so I don't know if are enough in the break. That's Not. I. Have Walked On the Alpha males psych. Buckle buckle. Almost has what what what what what what what what what what what. What what what Back How The back. Oh. Have you tried doing an impression on a college campus. 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