Outrage and anger in the wake of another racist massacre


Tonight on all in that's an invasion. I was badly criticized for using the word invasion. It's an invasion outrage and anger in the wake of another racist massacre. Is there anything in your mind that the president can do now to make this any better. What do you think tonight pay to aurora worked. Joins me live to explain why he's laying blame at the president's feet. He's not tolerating racism. He's promoting racism bus houlihan castro on why he says donald trump trump is unfit to lead our nation then the renewed call to do something about guns in the wake of a mass killings in texas and ohio and just what it means to us the terrorism label on white nationalist violence america is under attack by lethal violent white nationalist terrorism and all in starts right now good evening from new york. I'm chris as even if there were no blood it would still be vile if there were no body count no deaths to mourn no grieving families know young parents corrupt apart by bullets while shielding their babies. Even if none of that had happened it would still be an existential threat to the america we can and should should be this is an invasion when you see these caravans starting out with twenty thousand people. That's an invasion. I was badly adler criticized for using the word invasion. It's an invasion and it's also an invasion of drugs coming in from mexico okay. It's an invasion of drunk. Even if there were no maga bomber radicalized at trump rallies and sentenced today to twenty years for sending bombs the president's foes the rallies would still be ghastly chilling enterprises were crowds are incited and encouraged given to the worst impulses where they ecstatically desecrate our national character yelling l. ing shoot them while cheered on by the head of state and when you have fifteen thousand people marching up and you have hundreds and hundreds of people and you have two or three border border security people that are brave and great and don't forget. We don't let them and we can't let them use weapons. We can't other countries do we can't i would never ever do that. But how do you stop these people. You can't this. That's only the panhandle you'd get away with that state only independent even if not one drop of blood river shed in pursuit of it would still be anathema it would still be a force to be routed and concord and banished antisemitic screen and what is the it. I'm speaking of well a quarter phrase you know it i know the well of evil from which our president draws and has drawn from the first day when he said mexico was sending rapists the u._s. Presumably with the explicit intent to defile america's women the dark sorcery of racial hatred that conjures invasions and infestations out of desperate fellow human being seeking refuge and exulted hatred a hatred wrapped in a joking not joking smile and a cowardly irony in a pause at the podium what the crowd hurwitz well. It's bil- hatred echoed in the refrain of death squads were criminals and fascist mobs throughout history as they will the club and the pistol and the machete your invaders. You are animals. You are a disease you are a threat to us and you will not replace us talk to you in that group but you also had people that were very fine people on both sides which is why of course if there is is a body count that there is blood on the ground but there's a list of names waiting now to be carved headstones political violence represents a distinctly destablizing threat to the fabric wake of a peaceful democratic society and it can and has come and we should be clear about this in many forms and from many ideologies they've been leftist belts of terror and religious fanatics and nihilistic stickney ex and let's not forget that a man to kill half a dozen republican members of congress motivated appears by his hatred of them their politics congressman scalise barely escape with his life was despicable act rightly and roundly condemned by all but the pattern laid out before us repeated over and over again requires willful full obtuseness to ignore a study conducted by researchers at the university of north texas found counties that are hosted a two thousand sixteen trump campaign rally saw two hundred and twenty six percent increase in reported hate crimes over comparable counties that did not host such a route two hundred and twenty six percent the men who wanted to shoot up a mosque where somali the immigrants worshiped who argued in court. Their actions were influenced by trump's anti muslim rhetoric. The bomber who tried to blow up the president's enemies the synagogue shooter who mused about the immigrant caravan and the jews he claimed behind it the el paso murder who left a manifesto whose main talking points would be more or less unremarkable out of the mouths of the the president's closest advisers or the president himself. Donald trump knows what he's doing. Everyone here's the president loud and clearly when he speaks wchs he tells his followers they alone are the heroes of this country's history that they are threatened by their fellow countrymen and women who live in cities by the desperate mothers and babies and flip flops and he separates great some pens by those who call their god by a different name time and again time and again this nation must answer the question who it is for america erica is four and the simple answer time and again must be it is for all of us. We welcome the stranger we pursue justice we act actors equals in the collective enterprises democracy the president and his party stand on the wrong side of that question right now they have long since disqualify themselves from the support of decent people doing so joining me now twenty twenty democratic presidential candidate mentor work represented el paso in congress for six years a native of that city first of all congressman how are folks in el paso doing and coping right now people in this community. We are so incredibly strong. I was just at university medical center. Visiting with people who have suffered the most grievous wounds you can imagine people who also had family members who were shot family members who unfortunately were killed and the strength the determination that they show show the care that they're receiving from these extraordinary doctors and nurses and frontline staff the love and his community lines around the block in order to be able to donate blood blood to in some way be able to help out our fellow pass wins and in this community of immigrants eighty-five percent mexican american by national community what ends ends is an el paso wins alike coming together in a display of confidence and courage and strength and love in the face of this hatred of never been been more proud of el paso than i am right now. How do you make sense of what happened this weekend there. You just did a wonderful the job of making sense of this for us chris it is that hatred in which the president traffic's the racism that he promotes the violence that he encourages. No one should be surprised. No one should be asking themselves how this could happen in our country. It's very clear in this president's maiden speech as a candidate for the highest office in the land he chose to talk about communities like mind to describe mexican immigrants as rapists and criminals. He did not only welcome the violence against them. He literally sent u._s. Servicemembers thousands of them to the border for what reason to meet kids who had just fled two thousand miles miles for their lives who show up here penniless defenseless as vulnerable as a human being can be he wants you. He wants people. He wanted that killer to be afraid and then to act on that fear and you know what he did. Twenty two people dead now in this community community that has been forever changed but but will not be defined by this because though we have borne the brunt of this racism and this hatred and attack this community also holds the answer answer. We are one of the safest cities in america because we are a city of immigrants and asylum seekers and people from the planet over who have found a home here here in el paso and by their very presence have made a stronger and more successful and more secure than we could have ever been otherwise this. This is the example that the country needs right right now. I don't think the politics here matter that much. I mean what who's got the bigger path of the country but i guess i wonder like so. Are you confident. Do you have bedrock unshakable faith that your vision is the vision of the majority of this country that the rejection of the way the president talks. It is what most americans want here. We very consciously started out two hundred gordon forty-three years ago on the premise that we were all created equal. We consciously chose not to define ourselves by difference or by race or ethnicity or or common ancestry. We've never quite lived up to it but until now until this administration. We never really stopped trying to live up to that. I believe the people of this country. I certainly believe in the people of el paso texas and they are showing us the way right now yes. I'm optimistic and and i'm hopeful whether or not you can believe it in the face of this massacre and this tragedy we are so much bigger and stronger and more confidence than this we see in our differences nothing to be afraid of in fact we don't tolerate we don't respect we fully embrace these differences as foundational to our safety to security to our pride as americans. We're going to get back on track. We're going to reject this president and his racism everyone who traffics in it everyone everyone who is aided him those members of congress who have yet to speak out against this president and draw the connections between his language his rhetoric and the violence that we're using you mentioned in the opening hate crimes on the rise every single year for the last three years. The mosque in victoria texas burned to the ground on the same day that donald trump signed a ban purporting to ban all muslim travel to the united states of america. We know what's happening right now. The people of this country do it's time for their elected leaders to say as much for members of the press to be very clear to stop equivocating. Don't ask if the presence racist you know. The president is racist. Don't ask if he had a role in what happened in el paso he absolutely did now. It's time for us to act. Do you think there's a world world in which there are people who are still supporting the president or persuadable on this who are amenable to the kind of vision that you're sketching about what an inclusive sort of americanised looks like i do and at this moment of such great division when when we are so polarized when when we are being driven further apart every day by this president through this anger and through this fear that he wants us to feel i really believe in our ability to come together to to save from the outset outset. Do not care who you voted for last time for president what party you belong to how many generations you can count yourself in american whether like seven of the victims comes from this shooting you live in su- what is that you're here that you're part of this community that you're a human being. That's what matters first and foremost and we're going to treat you you that way as a travel texas as a travel this country. That's what i see. That's what i hear. That's what i feel. That's what we were going to live as a country going forward. I'm confident confident of it. All right. They told work from congressman. Paso running for president wanted to say that you've been hearing this from everyone but the entire nation <hes> standing with <hes> with the folks down there in ohio as well. Thanks a lot we're grateful much more on this weekend's to mass shootings including the rallying cry to do something about guns what it means to label white nationalist murderers as terrorism and more on what this moment means to the future of our country after this even before the mass murderers is weakened even before this white supremacists committed what is being treated as an act of domestic terrorism has been clear from the first moment that donald trump came down that desk leader for years ago particularly clear in the last few weeks donald trump stood idly biza crowded rally chanted senator back the president's cultivation racist ideology and his racist definition of what the u._s. is four pose. An existential threat to the country's nature should be that's it. It is an existential threat that we face down many times before and at battles over and continue to battle over but this is as much a hinge in history of what the country we're going to be as we have ever had here with me now erica annual chief advocacy officer immigration legal services group races and adam serwer staffer the atlantic who wrote about this very idea today erica what what is the significance reverberation of this moment after what we've seen the president say and do against immigrant communities yeah i mean it was absolutely devastating for a community sushi that not only the narrative of donald trump creating policies against our communities eighties. It is also actually driving actions now from people who really listened to him to really believe what he's saying about immigrants and obviously this person going to the border and doing what he did was specifically targeted towards immigrants. He was very clear about it and so to me. It is definitely right now. How very very urgent that we're changing policies but also that we're start changing narrative and the president needs to understand that what he's saying is going to continue to to change lives then at the end. They also n. Life as what happened just recently announced bustle atom i didn't i didn't play any of the presidency share even mentioned it because it just just seemed to me completely immaterial we know what he is and what he actually believes and you've written about this before that the essence of what the what he has been selling cannot cannot be detached from this particularly racial is vision of who really america's for who belongs here who's being invaded in who the invaders are look. I'm sure the president doesn't actively want people to die but both key and his advisors spent the last month telling everyone who would listen and how brilliant the president's strategy of fomenting racial division was and they can't control how seriously people take that and when you're telling everyone you ah when you're telling your audience is these huge audiences of people both who watch fox news and who listened to the president that the country is in danger existential existential danger because of the threat posed by people who don't look or worship like them then you can't control how people are going to react to it especially when you're up there saying wouldn't it be great if we could just shoot down and i want to stress erica and i'd like to hear your response to this <hes> eh piggy backing up with adam said and what i said earlier even if there wasn't oh violence it still vile like he's calling people in invasion calling infestation like that language is dehumanizing unacceptable able on its own detached from whatever deranged people do with it or violent people do with it like that to me seems fundamental to the understanding of at this moment in terms of when you talk about what has to change absolutely and this is a psychologically damaging to our community until you that as undocumented person. I've been afraid most of my life that meaning the u._s. You know my family has been really afraid for a really long time. Even before donald trump was an office but right now i literally have feared for my life life. I've known community members who have feared for their lives because of what has been said in those rallies because of exactly the conversations that have happened in the <unk> fortune in h._s._e._n. Gone screen shots of people who are on an on an talking as you know anonymous about what they're going to do to me or they're going to do due to activists and dreamers is to me right now. Really we are scared for early lives more than we are even scared you know for our families to be deported in is just beyond beyond beyond devastating absolutely just can't i don't even have the words to describe what i feel right now. There's also of course adam. The the president may be a senior figure in his rhetoric but the party that supports him. We see them object sometimes when he does things they don't like they just killed someone who kill the nomination of someone who's gonna be the head of the deny a managed sort of strike that down <hes> they don't do that about this more or less <hes> this core way hey that he interacts with and speaks to the base of his party. Look there was something really encouraging. We saw the past couple of days. Which was we saw a a lot of conservative figures and conservative media outlets condemning white nationalism and completely unqualified terms and that's good but the problem is that the senate haven't changed as long as the republican party seize the path to power through scaring the crap out of white people and fomenting this kind of racial division. This problem cannot be solved. It's also the case eric that that the underlying ideology here that drove this person <hes> by his own accord our to commit this atrocity was almost the almost banal and how common it is in certain conservative republican circles about demographic change change in about how it's going to be bad for the folks who were here because there will be new people here. Yeah we need to change the narrative in both parties to be honest with you. I think it is it. It is very clear that what happened in el paso is to me is just can't believe that the safest city one of the safest cities in the country is <unk> out the border and was literally terrorized by a u._s. citizen with a u._s. Bought weapon in to me is at this point. We need to start rethinking what we're talking about. Border security rethinking and re framing how we're talking about the marine committee in both parties and of course republicans have had a worse but i would invite he also the democrats especially those who are running right now for for office and for the presidential campaigns to start thinking about how they can best reframe and change the narrative of butter communities all right erica and deal and adam serwer. Thank you both thanks for having presidential candidate in texas native julio castro join me talk about the toxic white supremacy says is brewing throughout the country. We are not in the habit here of quoting the words of a mass murderer hoping to get attention for his vile 'cause through that murder but it is almost impossible look at his documents so called manifesto nazi views that are essentially at the core of the current trump's this moment a belief about where each party stands on the question immigration. Here's the shooting suspects read on things quote so the democrats are nearly unanimous with their support of marin while the republicans are divided over it at least the republicans. The process of mass immigration and citizenship can be greatly reduced joining me now is fully on castro twenty twenty presidential candidate former mayor of san antonio texas it says what do you see as the stakes and the battle lines the fundamental one here in this moment in the wake of what's happened in the wake of the president's rhetoric about immigration immigration in this country. What is the simple clear choice to your mind that americans have to make a fork in the road. We're going to go down the path of either improving as a country and being a country that welcomes immigrants and people people that folks he has different from themselves that continuous improvement that this country has been part of since its founding or we're gonna go backward to a country that is fractured where somebody who's not like you is seen as the other especially recent immigrants. That's the choice that we need to make aac in the united states and as long as donald trump is president. This is not going to stop so with regard to immigrants or really whether we're talking him about immigration lines faith lines race ethnicity. It is his political strategy to divide us as americans but the good news is as we get to choose whether or not we're going to go down this path and i think i think you asked this question earlier chris that i they have confidence that the hatred in the heart of that shooter by no means reflects the vast vast majority of the people <unk> out there about a year ago on father's day. I went down to mcallen texas to join activists who were protesting the family separation policy at the earth <unk> processing center where they actually separate families and the families are the activists that were there were of every background and different walks of life in different parts in the country. We actually have values of compassion. Understanding respect for one another that i believe are much stronger no matter what the color of one's skin is or their background background than the division that this president is trying to fan the flames. I'd like you to respond to a critique. I've heard of you specifically in the democratic party recently in the wake of debates because it relates to this idea where where is the majority of americans. We're we're we're kind of democratic majority martialed for something that doesn't look as ugly as this <music> and people have criticized you and for democrats arguing over decriminalizing <hes> unauthorized entry which is currently a misdemeanor federal misdemeanor and you propose to to be a civil infraction other questions about immigration policy and they say that you're bringing the party outside of the mainstream away from that majority going to do damage to it and i'm curious what your response <hes> that i disagree completely that <hes> the fact is what i've proposed basically treating these things as a civil matter is the way that that was done from one thousand nine twenty nine until about two thousand four this is the way that it was don don under reagan under george h w bush under bill clinton so this is not anything that we haven't done before we can still have consequences for people who across over the border it would still be illegal to cross over the border. They're just not would not be this misdemeanor attached to it. That misdemeanor is what this this president trump has weaponized to incarcerate migrant parents and separate them from their little children and i've said that i'm going to guarantee that that it does not happen again. In the future administration the president today <hes> seemed to indicate and i don't think anyone should take the super seriously. It seemed quite tossed off that there there will be some deal. Maybe we'll do immigration reform and something on guns merola up together and i guess there's a fundamental question. Is it possible to do an immigration ration- deal with this president with stephen miller working in the white house. Is that even a possibility to be considered look. I think that anybody who wants to actually make progress on an issue. You always have to keep an open mind even sometimes if that seems like we've we've that seems impossible or ridiculous or it'll never happen. Look it. We're really working for the benefit of people out there. Show me what you're proposing now. Do i believe that that's going to happen given the bigotry of this president and the people that worked for him like stephen miller no but you know have have stranger things happened in history sure what we need to do. Though in the meantime is as as people here in the united states and we need to continue to push politicians to try and work together to fix our broken immigration system whether they're democrat or republican and to do it with solutions that make sense for this country country and for the people who are fleeing desperate circumstances who are seeking a better life generations did before them. I believe that ultimately in two thousand twenty one when we have a new administration and we have a democratic congress and democratic senator that we can get immigration reform done. I only on costra twenty twenty any presidential candidate. I really appreciate you taking a little time out tonight. Thanks kara dylan had the renewed calls to do something about guns following the deadly suiting in texas and ohio next yeah. This is seen individual in dayton ohio yesterday in the aftermath of the mass murder on the streets of that city republican governor mike dewine who has was endorsed by entering last year getting shouted down by crowds of people want him to do something could gun violence in the wake of the shooting that ritualized mass slaughter by guns. It's so common now in american society from police to politicians just everyday citizens they all have. We all have expectations about what happens during them. I am and what happens in the aftermath. The n._r._a. Has a game plan to lay low and try to wait out the nation's anguish blame mental health were video games or anything other than guns guns and then pressure lawmakers behind the scenes and in front of them sometimes to oppose gun safety measures that strategy is largely worked. Something is different though this time and and it's this sierra while still incredibly formidable is at its weakest point organizationally in decades as he battled between warring factions combined with a corruption scandal have plunged the a group into open turmoil joining me now robin thomas executive director of the giffords law center to prevent gun violence and i i guess let me start by asking that question. Do you think the situation the n._r._a. This scene factional dispute different entities accusing others of stealing and corruption and this sort of institutional implosion in happening does that matter in the political strength that the movement to a for sure max gun maximalism at this moment. I actually think it is important. Because what you're seeing is the integrity of the organization. They've really rested on this concept that they have sturdiness they represent the will of gun owners and those of us who are involved in this tissue that that's simply not true not only do they not represent the will of gun owners. They definitely don't even represent the will of n._r._a. Members who they represent are gun manufacturers and the gun industry and the lobbyists the leadership way not pierre and his cronies not only are fighting for something that is on behalf of selling more guns based on fear but apparently apparently and we've suspected this for a long time. They're also enriching their own pockets along the way they're under investigation by the new york state attorney general. There's an f. b. C. complaint against them oliver. North scandal was a big issue. The doesn't surprise me. These are not people who have integrity and so it doesn't surprise me that this is what they're doing behind the scenes in the case of the shooter in dayton <hes> one of the things that's so striking there and we don't really know what the motives are if we will ever learn them in the case las vegas kind of ever did just match burger in this case the unbelievably fallacy in such a short period of time. I mean the latest reports indicating. The police may have neutralized him. <hes> shot him stopped him within thirty seconds of the first shot to thirty seconds in a minute. You have nine deaths. I believe more than a dozen <music> injured. I think there's some instinct that this shouldn't be possible. The types of lethal weapons available to civilians in in the united states is truly astounding and when you talk to folks in the military or law enforcement they're pretty clear that these are not the kinds of guns but certainly should be this easily available all two civilians without proper training without any background check. That individual had a hundred round magazine drum. It's the same kind of drum to what was used in the aurora. Were theater shooting. It's incredible that a civilian not a time of where these guns these really meath assaults assault weapons and these kinds of magazines shouldn't shouldn't be in the civilian market and really you're even hearing that from from folks across the country that we need to do better to regulate salt weapons and to regulate magazines. Is there a police gun gun safety groups that yourself sort of fighting so hard for these small incremental changes for so long. It's still hard to kind of break the damn of n._r._a. Resistance do you think there are folks inside your movement who are saying let's think big like cory booker for instance proposing a national essentially licensing system right like car license since for all guns which is utterly anathema the n._r._a. What do you think of that idea. Where do you think about the sort of scope of the ambitions of moving part of our right now. We should absolutely he be thinking and talking big. We should be talking about comprehensive reform because that's what it's gonna take to actually address this issue. That's what has been done in other countries and that we've seen having tremendous difference even in states like california where we have thought big on we've passed comprehensive reform and we've driven down gun violence year over year over year to one of the the lowest in the country so we should definitely be thinking big yet. We have to start with something and that something should be the universal background check law that was passed by congress earlier this zere that'd be a great starting point and then we need to keep going. I love that these new democratic candidates are talking about comprehensive reform because that is what is actually needed that was passed by the house. It's sitting for the senate to take up mitch mcconnell. Thus far won't take it up. Chuck schumer and others have called for him to call a special session and comeback pass. That probably towns. Thank you very much. Thank you coming coming up what it means the d._o._j. To treat passer shooting as an act of domestic terrorism the justice department is investigating the mass shooting in el paso texas is a case of domestic terrorism which is rare for these kinds of events for years people have been touting the fact in both the rhetoric and the actual institutional nature of the f._b._i. And the nation's natural security architecture that there is a category terrorism that is inherently it seems seems linked to muslim extremist jihadi views that other forms of extremist political violence have done by white people in pursuit of white supremacy does not get that label and the institutional infrastructure behind it while this is happening. We are seeing all sorts of metrics jesting that there has been a spike in right wing violence according to the anti-defamation league which keeps track of this kind of thing extremists related murders spiked thirty five percent between twenty seven two thousand eighteen and last year. Every one of those murders was carried out by a right wing extremist back back in two thousand nine and domestic terrorism analyst department of homeland security warned about this in an eternal report. He faced enormous backlash from conservative media and republican lawmakers hours after his report was leaked to the press d h s then caved to political pressure rescinded the report and the unit looking at right wing extremism was disbanded he left the department of homeland security went on to write a new book called hate land long hard look at america's extremist at former domestic terrorism. Analyst darrell johnson joins me now giving your history mr johnson given the fact that you wrote that memo in two thousand nine and went through the backlash. What are you thinking now as you watch what we're seeing unfold over the last you're so we'll thank you chris. It's very disheartening year. After year. We have these attacks and yet our legislators and government officials seem to have their heads buried in the sand about this issue so when i see these things happening it's the new normal now. These attacks have been happening practically every month and what are the trends that were you. What were the trends that we identified in my report. Yes exactly yes so we basically basically back in two thousand seven postulated what if barack obama the first african american to run for president got elected and we knew that this this would be a recruitment and radicalization tool used by hate groups to basically swell the ranks and begin conducting violent attacks so that report in two thousand nine was actually really a predictive analysis that warned of a coming threat and yet what we've seen we've seen under bill clinton for instance activated right wing thing <hes> extremist violence famously timothy mcveigh and then several militia groups but what we've seen as in some ways a little bit of the inverse of what you predict it right that <hes> these groups would rise up as in a sort of oppositional stance but it seems that the sort of explosion of the number to believe in this kind of violence and organization. It's actually happening under donald trump. What's your theory for that. Yes so typically under democratic administrations is where we see the rise of hate groups and anti-government groups because because they fear pending gun legislation or expansion of minority rights so typically during the republican administrations we have a dial back of right wing extremists premiss activity because they don't have to fear these things <hes> so what's the difference is the fact that we had a very hostile two thousand sixteen election campaign campeign and we've had extremist ideas that have been mainstreamed by the current administration <hes> there was a demonization of any opposition russian and dehumanisation of people that are viewed as opponents to the administration and so these types of things kind of kept this momentum going and has given given these groups kind of a green light to continue operate and can conduct act of violence. I wanna ask about the controversy over that. I report and try to make the sort of best good-faith the argument for some of the backlash which is the first amendment is it protects people's political views. It's not a crime or illegal to have to hold us even if they're utterly odious <hes> for instance <hes> neo nazis and white supremacists. That's all protected by the first amendment and that crimes are committed through actions. There's something dangerous this about government surveillance of people for their political views. What's your what's your response to sort of the best faith version of that argument you gotta remember these violent ideologies geology even though they're protected by the first amendment they bred long histories of violence so just the fact that you embrace is white supremacy. You're already halfway to an act of violence. All your lacking is that trigger a catalyst in your life so we had an equation when i was an analyst that said capability plus ten equals threat and the capability part is the large arsenals weaponry that these people have at their disposal. The intent comes. It's from the ideology gives them the scapegoats to target it gives them the justification that violence is a acceptable form to avenger grievance. Ideology does play a very important role and we need to understand that but at the same time you don't investigate people just because of their ideology all right darrell johnson. Thank you so much for sharing your expertise with us tonight. Much more of the question of domestic terrorism and white nationalism next for years as white supremacist political violence has increased people have called for the u._s. To name these acts as terrorism the same way we use the term for say isis inspired attacks but i think it's worth asking is terrorism. The conceptual legal and institutional framework that we want to expand and utilize hasn't the use of the term often lead abuses is giving this government bisa administration <unk> tools of that kind going to result in the outcomes. The country wants opt for more on this inherent tension joy mehdi hassan columnist the intercept hopes of the deconstructed podcast and m._s._n._b._c. national security analyst frank figliuzzi former assistant director of counterintelligence for the f._b._i. And frank let me start with you because i've seen a few interviews you give it on this. What is the significance and importance sort of tangible concrete way about the designation nation of terrorism to the act committed in el paso and why is that a good idea well. I'm not necessarily advocating that. It's a good idea but i am applauding the fact that we are finally at least labeling something because it's an ideology that leads to violence so terrorism terrorism is all about ideology as motivation and finally we have a recognition that this individual and others like him are motivated by ideology geology not simply by wanting to kill somebody for the sake of killing. Somebody and i think it's a healthy discussion that we need to have as a nation because we're getting to the heart you of free speech and privacy. There's a reason why we don't treat domestic. Terrorism like international terrorism and we need to get this figured out so if you told your local chief of police that there was a house on the corner that was allowing drug sales to happen there. The chief of police would probably put it under surveillance. Maybe send an informant and maybe using undercover technique we don't do that. Their houses on the internet sites chat rooms blogs where people are having discussions that are poised to commit violence and even saying they are going to commit violence yet. Law enforcement isn't present there and we need to figure out how to make that what happened while maintaining our free speech rights. That's a great point and it's sort of cuts to the quick care medi. I mean h chan of course there's been. I think three of these sort of murderous. I manifest is posted there. It is clearly environment in which in certain rooms on that place people radicalizing to other they're urging each other towards really heinous acts and sometimes those hacks are becoming reality. What do you think about the sort of category of terrorism here and the and the civil liberty concerns chris. This is why i love doing your show show because you are such important question really asked this question yeah and it's so important to every one of these attacks because muslims minorities people on the left we look at what's been going on and we say when is someone going to label. These people terrorists because the double standard is so frustrating we look at the media coverage and say why you not covering this stuff we we'll look politician to a passing laws only aimed immigrants or muslims or mexicans. Whatever and there's a great frustration they do something about frank is right to say we need to recognize the ideology behind in these guys having said that of course as you point out. Do we really want to import some of the worst practices from what's happened to us government. I hear people saying on my side of the argument. We should turn we should deal with domestic terrorists. The way we deal with international terrorists and the problem with that argument of course is that the way we dealt with international terrorists was included invading occupying afghanistan invading and occupying iraq opening guantanamo bay bringing the patriot act and mass surveillance and carrying got massive discrimination against muslim communities and violating human rights and free speech that we don't want to replica. I'm assuming i'm betting frank doesn't want to write some of the abuses from from the war on terror in terms of war on far right tara what we want though is some consistency and we want someone to take the white nationalist problem serious right. I think vilo agree with both those points. I mean i to your point about sort of the concerns about state overreach and some of the things that we've done in the war on terror. Frankly the president talks today sort of mentions as an offhand about about being able to involuntarily commit people who are struggling with mental health issues now again. There's some obviously some conditions. I think that probably makes sense ends but it's extremely aggressive power for the state to have it used to be a lower threshold that we have now the threshold we have now which is higher i think generally he's more in line with our values and civil liberties but that's a that's a tough question frank right like that's uneasy live. Our nation is very good at knee-jerk reactions reactions we we can mass resources and swing the pendulum whenever we need to and we did it in nine eleven and most of it was positive positive but there were abuses but we gotta listen to law enforcement to and they say they don't have the investigative tools in their tool kit to address this and that's what they're telling us right now now so congress needs to actually get this done and figure out the supreme court once said you know obscenity when you see it well. We all know violence silence when we see it if somebody says they're going to shoot somebody this weekend. That's a problem. The problem is how does law enforcement see it. How do they position themselves to see if it's happening within a private chat room well and there's an interesting other way of dealing with this method that i that i thought it was always. We're watching this unfold h._s._e._n. You know the cloudflare. Which is the this web service that was providing kind of cybersecurity for them. Stopping them from de de dos attacks and things like that. We're not gonna do this anymore. The head of of came who founded it said not the head of the founder of like shut it down there are private actions and private pressures that can be brought to bear that are not the state where you just say look with this is not the government coming in this is just social society being like a decent person shouldn't be associated with this of course the role of politicians. They're all of the media. The role of financial institutions institutions and banks are involved in stuff. You'll corporation. All of this stuff needs to be looked at but again that requires us to i recognize the problem and that's where franken one hundred percent in agreement at least now we're starting to see a lot of people say it's a shame so many innocent people had to die for people in our country for people in this country to start to open their eyes to this threat is here and this is a new threat. It's been around for a while into darrell johnson before the break who was talking about this threat in two thousand nine the presidency yeah exactly and even even oklahoma city. If you remember right wing went out and said it's muslims before we timothy mcveigh supposed things have been around for a while ignoring the white nationalist threat and exaggerating the muslim threat. Maybe now we can start some kind of re bouncing. Mehdi hassan and frank figliuzzi was great. Thanks a lot that does it for all in you can catch us every weeknight at eight o'clock on m._s._n._b._c. Don't forget to like us on facebook. That's facebook dot com slash all in with chris willie geist here be sure to check out this week's episode of the sunday sit down podcast podcast with oscar winning actress viola davis to talk about her extraordinary career and her journey from poverty to hollywood's a-list yet it now for free wherever you download podcasts.

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