First Nations Fabulous - Australian Indigenous Fashion


For me so it's to fashion. You're listening to wardrobe crisis with clare. Press join me. Every week as we look at sustainability ethics and the business and madness of fashion. Twenty twenty one believer last your anyway. Happy new year we had a good holiday or indeed us still having it. I'm back at my desk and raring to go with the return of our past. The mike podcast series. This is the first of three episodes. We've got focused on indigenous australian stories so important and accommodative. It's taken us this long. actually. But i'm thrilled to bring them to you. This one is sponsored by bendigo art gallery and we really grateful to them for supporting it and actually next week's episode two and it's really perfect because the gallery is currently exhibiting the first ever major survey of australian indigenous fashion. The exhibitions could pin p contemporary indigenous fashion and is absolutely phenomenal. It's garments and textiles by fascination designers and artists from all around this country. It's open only until january seventeen so if you're in victoria you need to rush there. You really should. Because it's brilliant but don't panic if you're not because the exhibition will be traveling to cambre at the national museum of australia from february to august. Twenty twenty one a guest host. This week is yet to widows hunt a journalist and advocate for the indigenous fashion sector. And she's the woman behind the instagram account of fashion. So check that one out. I've known you for years actually three ability circles. She's terrific and hey she is yet to. I asked you to hop on here. And do this intro with me. Because i want to get you to share why. It's important that we're talking about indigenous fashion in this episode. Tennis about what we're going to hear and why it matters to you. Thanks so much clear to me. This is a really important pests. No issue as indigenous person familiar. I think fashion is incredibly passable. It's a continuation of storytelling tradition. That he's at least sixty thousand years old and for me. It also really represents the anchor of the australian fashion industry. So i think that's really exciting that we're celebrating as design. Isn't these traditions so much publicly now. It feels like now. There's way more attention even un wet suddenly. Everyone's clamoring to get you on the boards. Everyone's telling their focus to indigenous fashion. This year. right. What do you think i mean. We've absolutely saying a complete change. I think in light of the belan movement. That's certainly shifted things. And i also like to. I hope that it's a sign of maturity of where we are nation that were walking closer to reconciliation together. And that we're starting to see the value and the joy and the beauty in this work and really accepting embracing as part of our strategy and identity. But very lucky we have three guests on these episodes. We have the wonderful shannon hudson who's in indigenous q. Right and who is currently creating a incredible indigenous fashion exhibitions. We'll be talking to her about that and she's super young right. She's amazing she twenty three. Yep but she's really making a mock is one of the country's curate is to watch and we also have two of the designers who featured in the exhibition that shannon. I is key writing taken cowlishaw from ali which is a sustainable straightway brand from western australia and julie shaw from mara collective who's really pioneering co design and collaborative fashion experiences. She's baytuniya works all across the country. Fantastic come wait now. Don't forget you can find all the notes and links today's on our website which is the worst crisis dot com for info for bendigo gallery including the details of their next exhibition which it mary. Quant fashion revolutionary direct from the vienna in london that went up in mont. You can go to bendigo region dot com dot. Au food slash bendigo dash art dash gallery. Hi everyone i am. Yo guest house today we'd is hunt. I'm very proud unaware. John gotti person from new south wales. And i'm also the founder and curator of social media community australian indigenous fashion. Where heat today. Which hobson first nations curator at bendigo art gallery and we're very excited to be speaking with her today. But before we kick off. I did just want to formally acknowledge country and acknowledged that i joining you from the land of the people of the your nation and pay my respects to elders. Poss- present an emerging. Thank you. hi everyone. My name is shayna hobson and i'm a proud. Kanju woman from cohen Each lot i'm coming to you today from. Jj country in bentiu guard says always. That might not be familiar with what a first nations curious. Give us a little bit of insight into what that role is. Yes sir. I started ben. Gurion twenty eighteen ride to that. I was studying a bachelor degree. I majored in anthropology and history from univesity in a key. Part of my role in bendigo is to really engage with fess nations communities here in really be a platform for getting us nations voices and perspectives into the museum gallery setting which historically can be very west in institutions. Sesame was really what to work with the local community but also with first nations from old to really share stories and he's threes on with ince's we are one of the largest regional galleries in australia. Just very exciting moments pretty dynamic team is well. That's great to be able to be in a position where you can kinda can change the narrative and change people's perceptions when they interact with the digital auto come into a gallery for the first time in see indigenous painting or a sculpture or relation. The star long stories in history of being told through a western lens. So it's early. We stop making sure that we're actually having first nation's representation in these spaces that at histories toll throughout lens. I always had a passion for Definitely has led me to worry today. I'm just really fortunate to be able to work with so many amazing and talented first nations designers and artists everyday is out of my job. You are incredibly active when you were an undergraduate in the spice and you worked on the big awaken exhibition which featured a lot of cultural heritage objects at did internal arts. I worked at the mall. Museum interning dead doing research on fascinations collections from northern australia a lot of the effects from my country as well and so for me it was really important to be able to work on the project with the amazing genevieve breeds and to be able to guard back into community and talk about some of the audifax which were in the museum's collection from donald thompson selection but will start to reconnect stories and community in that idea. Leaving cultures in history in attached stars to the facs in the exhibition was a A milestone in terms of being able to get involved. Get the compensation happening making sure that in the future that these artifacts three come back That we do get out old people to reconnect those you such a long time and to be able to our country into be. Some of the mall been listened to this story was really rewarding me as a young person growing up in the community my whole life and unite engaged with mall but to be able to do it in a way that was contributing hearing stories that i hadn't heard as these artifacts taken away and it's definitely a long way to conversation's still happening but for me yells Project to work on. I think museums are really interesting spaces. The wonderful exhibition People's display at the mountain museum. Bunge alaska in germany. Beautiful stories there in a wonderful curate. Kimberly maltin a lot of doing a lot of things as well say it's great to have them as lucky in this space into to look too. I love the way you talk about. Reframing objects that are traditionally been in gallery and museum spaces into living entities and living culture. It's incredible to see that shift within the gallery and museum sector but do you also say that. That way of thinking of that way of approaching. Things has a bigger impact on how we connect culture and also for for broader australia to do that as well. Yeah i definitely think it does. I think it dismantles. There's preconceived ideas that indigenous culture history is a thing of the cost was it's really not. It's continued his three. In living culture that is thriving and wanting to environment constantly evolving changing. But also still strong in who we are out out values. Yeah that's true. And you've touched on this idea of shifting the narrative and if like changing the experience well for people coming into these places and i think when we often talk about going to a museum or gallery to say aboriginal works. We often think of paintings or visual art or sculpture. But there's also this whole other industry that. I know that you are very involved in virtually at the moment which is in the first nations fashion space and a lot of people. Say to me arts. Look at this emerging industry. And i think my god is more than sixty thousand years old. It's always been the tradition of design. I mean how do you see the kind of relationship. Between what would maybe traditionally be called the aboriginal auto industry. This is the wearable fashion industry. Yeah i definitely think that there's a lot of cross artists and it's a may first experience with indigenous fashion as a industry was why attended the cans indigenous say fashion performances so grisly was the founder and creative director of these incredible performances. Which was such a celebration of history and culture but also to be able to see the incredible work of our designers and artists. Who are like you said. Continuing on that tradition of storytelling in dormant man but also being really creative in innovative intensive materiality designs. I always love than i remember. going in. twenty seventeen to the one done session. Performances was a collection of works by the mornington island. Ladies in this stories in the designs splurge xactly the sag narratives that they do on canvas or the being on fabric and to be able to see them wearing the garments in the fashion performance in really celebrating who they are and this continued his. Three of storytelling in mock. Making through off odd was really just a beautiful and lightbulb marmots or may we really sort of seen a bit of a a bit of an explosion. The we've had the very first national indigenous fashion awards. I think a few months ago for the very first time had an office work as they cover for the shoe. I mean it's really sort of taking off in a broader fashion community. As well i mean. Do you think people are surprised. At how much of a thriving and dynamic industry the first nations fashion industry ease. Yes and our. I think social media has been a really good platform to get us stories out then. The work that you're doing as well as super incredible units. Be able to have that platform to showcase the vibrancy in vitality of cermony credible artists working in different spaces. Whether the collaborating non-indigenous designers they got their businesses or inner. Study out jewelry making so i think in terms of it being a surprise. Historically the definitely has been a gap in the market in terms of how stories and industry really recognizing us. Utah had the incredible linda jackson who did a lot of work with first nations communities in the women in utopia by. I just feel today. The real strong push first nations artists and designers to really be the voice of change. And it's three people wax chrysler. Leeann leeann teagan. Kelly show and julie show from our collective throughout participating in the mountain fashion week events showcasing. The collection said just being voice of change in this space. I think doesn't view way Real gang changes in artistic. Innovators shoe are really fleeing thus nations voices and perspectives. Out and kind of coming to the table saying you know this is important. This is why this nation's Integral too old fashioned because of alan houston temps sustainability and wastefulness and interestingly carbon alerts being a really sad times also serving time for a lot of change. And i think for a lot of people to really evaluate the impact that they're having on the environment in terms of mass produce products Overseas sees looking at slow fashion and sustainability is sorry watching trenched in what amount of indigenous artists and designers do. Anyway through the everyday practice is really important. So i think that has been against a key theme in one of the reasons why people outlets are gravitating to was fist nations fashion. Now no you Very entrenched in the fashion industry at the moment because you accumulating an amazing exhibition. Pnp at bendigo gallery and it's known for its love and support of fashion exhibitions. We've seen balenciaga exhibition. There we've seen. The bendigo is just announce america contexts edition for twenty twenty one pimp. E is a survey of contemporary indigenous fashion. And it's really a world. I it hasn't been done before but before we get into the details. I think everyone is curious to know what does compete maine. yes sir. P p is young lead from great grandmother's language in this not really a western term. That translates spot. It's really about the tossing of time on country in that understanding of changes in the landscape close for a lot of fifth nations people across australia. Knowledge of the land as the seasons is really important. Sir sutton thousand indicate when it's the right time to collect sutton sherie oil what You'd be able to use when you're weaving sorry that inherent knowledge of the land to me was a really important part of what i wanted to kind of incorporate into the exhibition so painfully was just the right one in a beautiful quite by mike great-grandmother which is actually in the exhibition. While kind of sets premiss footage shar started the exhibition space. It medically off seasons in the intention with that was to really give audiences the feeling that they will be. Transported onto country with so much of indigenous fashion is really about the land in culture off and storytelling through fashion and sar. We really wanted to create that rich experience. When you come to visit the exhibition i worked really closely with Tata's in resort iota woman and she grew up in Are and becky freeman. Who did this beautiful soundscape sir. When you come in you'll be able to hear songs from country in language. About the changing of the seasons you'll be able to enter the rainbow. Coaling the fire. The wind all these elements from country. That really make us who. We are as indigenous people today sir. The exhibition is more than just the Conventional museum experience. It's really about being invest in indigenous cultures telling feeling Going onto country with these atis leave been workin so much. They everyday practices inner based around. That's really cool so stimulating all the senses and making a much more holistic experience. Yeah beautiful thank you and i think too. That was my experience with the indigenous fashion performances. Is they weren't gonna feel catwalks. Muddles look down with comments. It was whole choreography. That was storytelling. Dance in everything involved in the survey is really about recreating that experience in a museum. Space that's really cool. I've been to a few of grizzlies shows and they're just amazing. I you know people that haven't been. They involve dance performance song. Music sometimes fire natural elements. It's an absolutely beautiful experience. And really you know i feel really proud that that some it's like a first nations led runway. Introductory will is pretty epic. And i know that the exhibition that focuses very much on contemporary fashion. And have as we've said like such long history of design tens of thousands of he's with the original fashion industry in this country. Why was it important for you. To sort of highlight of focus on contemporary practice. Yeah i think the main reason was. Because i really wanted to give audiences a snapshot of the work. That was happening. Today Indigenous design is an odyssey out. There this is the first exhibition. But it's definitely not the lost. So i heard that own. This be more opportunities all curated artists and designers to share. Hey state works in this type of space. And i think traditionally like the history of bendigo art gallery in our credible fashion exhibitions and never really saw myself represented as the first woman as a black woman in these kind of european design is in stories and me it was really important to have that representation as well. I really wanted to showcase the credible wax up off doing today. You've got grace lee and lee's beautiful sculptures to the wiedeman. Dinas hats from the women at beluga watts to textiles and more contemporary. Could you'll stop comments. From the onset heart vow we will sick bought the beautiful warriors even hats. From the oddest set. Lots so that was a collaboration with julie. Shaw is diverse so many different techniques from different parts of the country. Any one of the important things about dizziness. Fashion is that as much as it is about. Crock it's also really about the process are coming together. The looming going to country collecting materials making the baskets in the maths in dinnie bags And beautiful things about oregon hats. Is that still got that. Traditional weaving techni by just through a really contemporary and sophisticated designed false Acing this is so amazing in. Everyone should be wearing sustainable as well. Those had saucer for those. I haven't seen them look them up for la la barak today. Look like bianca jagger hat. Stay huge this stunning. That featured in marie claire in grassi magazine and mara collective. I think actually won the major fashion design award at the inaugural indigenous fashion awards this year. So definitely you've got some of the best practices in your exhibition. And you've as he said you've got so many you've got grossly the work for mornington that she helped to curate and collaborate on you've got off site lino young who's incredible works with silk beautiful prints. I mean i don't. I don't wanna make you any favorites but other particular pieces in the exhibition. That really speak to you or that you that really resonate with you have a different every day because it is really hard regarding to seventy different in design. It's just a little era hundred different objects by one of the really significant works me is taken. Kelly shows dedicating jumpsuit. Teagan is a body office Between darwin and broome. And she's got her life will ali which specializes in st rhett apparel in his deadly. is fabulous it's all up cycled materials the deadly ticks written on the back in its religious the powerful expression of who we are indigenous people by also to be able to wear clothing and just feel sense of pry but also true that notion of decolonizing western space in having visibility within the colonial space. I think is really important in her designs. Really about empowering the next generation of indigenous youth and having think you know what's the best way to sort of land these lessons because there's so much knowledge in community about treading lightly on the us how to be mindful of resources and regeneration even the way we work with each other to make sure that those relationships are sustainable and respectful. Like how do you think we can share. These lessons is a three working on collaborations. Together or sort of more formal ways of teaching. What do you think would with best. Yes i think it's case by case depending on your the designer of the whenever you're approaching us nations designs just for my experience has always been collaboration and understanding. And it's not for me. It's not just kind of really turkey district justice of gonna work with indigenous people. We feel fulfilled. Now would do this project at. It's more to it as really you know you have to be asking a soft. What am i doing in terms of my engagement. That's ensuring sustainable widely How i making sure that indigenous people off the creative designers and have created control. Incredible tournament armadillo creations. Such really what it's about. Sometimes it's taking a step back to let fascinations people the the voice be the change in this industry. So i think there's a lot that can be but i also think. Fashion is a really approachable way for people to understand our culture while are supporting designers polluting. Office buying network beautiful rysley necklace that i always wig. I love it so much. I it's less often really proud when i'm wearing it because supporting greis sponsor to i'm showing off my culture to the rest of the world and so it's so awesome and it makes me feel so excited to see how much people love and engage. We fascinations fashion. You know but one of the things. I get us. Lana show. you get asked lot from particularly from non-indigenous. Australians is is it a k. to where first nations fashion. yeah. I think definitely if the designer and artist marketing and selling At retail price should Them so long as you deleo research at making sure that the products that you are buying Actually made by first nations people in a collaboration that the relation is ethical subtly support. It's good to have allies in this space in honor meakers league when i see someone wearing an indigenous design in straight Nonindigenous i'm proud. And now we're talking to julie shaw from mara collective. Thanks you too. Thanks for having me he today. Mara collective is my brand. It's women's resort and swimwear line and it's based on the foundations of collaboration and co design. So the name mara actually refers to the woods for hands in. ul roy and language groups. Where i'm from. I'm a woman and so the name are a collective is really about nine many hands coming together. That's beautiful such beautiful principal when we talk about collaboration and working in true partnership why do you think it's so important to work like these because we see you know it's such a competitive industry and people are not necessarily always will being open with their ideas or arpan in terms of giving up control of the creative process. But why is this important to you that this principle of patients released so much pot of how you work. Won't i you know i feel that. Collaboration is all about sharing stories coming together to share our stories and experiences to may true. Collaboration is an equal partnership. Between by potties way you know. H contribution is equally important and equally acknowledged. Last year. i code is on a collection of result where and why accessories weighed some female mazda waves from boola boola at center in on a bland. Boola boola center is located in getting a community in northeast. omland so that sway in the top Leah a tiny plane ride from darwin. You'll new from the surrounding highlands and they produced the beautiful traditional wavings and fiber works and also a paintings. I was invited to travel up to land and stay in the community of roman ginning and spent a couple of weeks. Working with three of the new mazda waivers. I was part of the process where they were harvesting and collecting the materials for the waving and just watching these women moves so swiftly through the bush land's day has such deep knowledge of the country and the environment. They knew exactly which plans to go to for certain bulb that you can't even say because it's under the earth and know they worked really hard to speak for the roots in the bulbs into pull down a pant donna slaves and just to see the passion that goes into that and then they bring these materials back and they prepare them and they way they absolutely incredible paces that are telling stories of their ancestors and generations before them that such a special experience it was just such a privileged to make them and spend time with them and learn from them so in the beginning we had conversations about what we could make and we talked about the concept of making these large resort style hats which i could just visualize as being so beautiful using colors from country and traditional waving techniques so i showed the lady sketches and tear sheets and fabric swat shows and designed to give them a feel for what we could create together. Everything just came completely from night. Shah was completely sustainable and from country. What was needed way presented that collection at the country to control runway shy as pot of darwin so i designed the garments and the ladies designed and handmade the woven accessories which included these beautiful hats also woven belts bags and jewelry and these techniques had obeyed pasta and the women for many generations. That much story held in those processes. And i think one thing that you know. I know you're really passionate about as well. Is that the process is just as important as the outcome. So there's a whole story behind an you often share the story of your work in when you release things. Why is it important someone. Who's the fashion item to really connect with that story. Yeah it's really important that the consumer can be involved in that story and experience that story and feel like they're part of it. So when i have a collaboration i always tell that story on the website when the purchasing the gum and they also receive a little oddest kat and story about that. And it's just connecting the consumer to the print and the artwork and the reason for that product being. I called taken cala show from ali fashion to oscar about that deadly jump seat. It times does snap ed mer already where we chat now to the amazing taken cowlishaw from ali teigen. We know that. So much of your work features. The deadly which we know is used nap communities all the time. What does deadly main to you growing up deadly. When i was younger everyone always kind of had it as a slang language for being good or excellence all som and as i grew older and did some research eventually found out that the irish use it in context that means exactly the same or also. Yeah i was really interesting. Because i think it must've got an connected in translation during the convict times with the whole other there. Yeah really deadly deadly. You have famous and glamorous and beautiful jumpsuit that pages the deadly on it's part of the exhibition but we've seen all around the country. tell us about this jumpsuit. inspired you to create it will. I definitely wanted today. Something that was fishy outrageous. And i think. I got that across with my seat. I think was very lucky to be evolved. Initially in the melbourne fashion wake capture which beautiful sinead news stumbled across and then came and saw me at a. I ended up doing at our. Mit toke and she came approached me then and said that she wanted by jumpsuit in pin pay and i felt completely on it. Because the first time i've ever been acquired by a national museum will gallery and yet so to made that such a huge model stein and to actually make it. I had left. David cushion cover material. Said that's i thought i'd go on then. Being up socks claim used by leftover fabric. And i ended up using an old top. That was broken so i cut that up to have the print on the back and if you look on the detail on the york that some kind of what we try to represent with the texture was fish goes to go towards what ali means an ali. Maine's fish in body language. Was it that inspired you to stop ali out really great back that my inspiration was not only with the naming but just being because she got dementia being stolen generation. I really didn't have that kind of traditional wanted. Have language and i didn't have that the united traditional learnings pasta onto me so it was always that kind of thing that how could i create a fashion light bulb that wasn't just essentially creating fashion. I wanted to do something different sir as a young kid. I was always recycling. 'cause i was surrounded by my godfather mother who are drag queens so i was always dressing up and playing around so this kind of recycling element and then this kind of unite vintage fashion being surrounded by that i feel that that's not that kind of sustainability in ethical practice but then i wanted to do something for my family and community end. I was always surrounded by fashion by being around all my uncles and aunties and doing fashion runway shares of my mom's communities so it just kinda naturally went down that path. What a great story says from a young age his you interested this is like eighties as of may this little one and all of these toll like drag queens big. A terrible may have always tried to get into the heels. Walking around in their heels liked combined is and a lot of sake wins for those that don't ali. how would you describe your label to people. That aren't familiar with that. Yes yeah definitely describe it as a a sustainable and ethical straightway brands We specialize now in in custom straight wearing dead stock apparel. We love doing partnerships to try and get up sock with products. And i love that. I'm a hundred percent. Fish nations are operated a really. Take that with pride and if there was one pace that you've created through ali that you think really sort of speaks to the heart of the brand. What would that be own. i think just recently. I collaboration that. I did with mim betting where we got leftover bedsheets and we turn them into. I'm sleep way. So going back to a indigenous brand that in dollar where i grew up and two dollars goes collaborating and taking yet leftover bedsheets making these the sleep way i think is just being superfund and definitely what i feel is a good definition for my brands. I mean you're known for bold styles. really edgy. styles have really cool caps that you make. What sort of drew you into straightway. What what's the power. Straightway really that next generation that that trying to connect to the next gen. I think has always been my inspiration to try. Make them dream. That i'm being from would little low. Darwin moved out to perth. And a bane has a twenty four years but to show them that anywhere in the world that you can kind of being and and liffey dreams and and do what you want especially in fashion. And then i was kinda like that at the start of my journey because i had connected with nobody denim and up cycling the jeans i wanted to go around and get more partnership. So we worked with senior powell in sydney and golden dead stock. And that's how we kind of went into the apparel areas with with doing t shirts in our caps because i really wanted to continue that up cycling using dead stock which would only go into landfill and that spin a huge condo way to get my products out to a awada community because at the status squat expensive today up cycling's not everyone can afford the these deadly jumps that to create essentially a product that you know muslim community could patches and then mobin community could wear the sense of pride. Yeah that's really cool. And i know you. Being one of the pioneers of rising sustainability as a big issue and about how important that is culturally as well known and also lifting the voices of first nations fashion designers. Why now why is now the time for us to really becoming together and and highlighting an elevating. We've really never had this kind of platform we've never had voice. We've never been invited to the table. Obviously with black lives matters. I think now is the time with definitely bane. On the wings of many many designers. I go back to when i was younger was once by on illinois dempsey from type of woman. Uncle rome gidget from declines. You've got friends seeing kick it. You've got all of these old deadly designers that we did back in the united states years ago. And now it's like just becoming a new revolution again. And i think is just super exciting that we're now in national exhibition. Where going into retail now out. Wonderful pop up that we didn't sit the to be given platforms ipod cots and actually getting out voices out there. It's super exciting. And i think the time has differently now. Yeah that's amazing justin credible to say how how much things have changed. Even in the loss six to twelve months in terms of the worry quelling working think was the barriers. Why do you think we haven't had as much of a voice before industry. I wouldn't actually know that question. I feel that it's really quite interesting. That we haven't bain actually out to the table because we have influenced and being that inspiration for many designers in australia for over twenty years that i think it's finally now for us to continue our own storylines have our own platforms. Have a month continued culture through fashion. Because it isn't part of our serve. Reconciliation is such a smooth way to actually be able to interact educate through fashion to be able to have a sense of brands to share shanties content traditional stories that pasta three generation to generation. I think is magical and yet now we're finally getting recognized. It's incredible and you've described this period as oh my psych revolution. May we honor and acknowledge all the people that have come before and all of the people who have paved the way. But you know you've described these this generation this spock as a bit of a revolution of sorts. What do you mean when you say that. I feel like it's because way yeah. We started on on the backs of of other designers being from Aunties and uncles from illinois dempsey. Pepperpot woman you've got uncle wrong gidget. I still call him the godfather of indigenous fashion with his kids back in the eighties and nineties. But to really spark this revelation for next generation to to be motivated. We really need to be without youth. United heart suicide rights lack of self determination completely lack of motivation especially being out. You know serve rural. I think it's this. Walk this igniting for these. This next gen to really they needed to understand. You can be anywhere in the world. And i find especially being out on community. That's what makes them so unique and special. What makes sense so the stories and the products so beautiful is because they're out on country that can fly in city and comfortable to flash deadly for amendments it and then they can go back home and be with their the mob. 'em continue the ancestors legacy thank you for listening to wardrobe crisis. You can find the show notes for each episode and read our magazine of on website. Www dot wardrobe crisis dot com and. That's where you can also sign up for a free sustainable fashion newsletters. We've been joined the show. I love you to help. Spread the word. Tell a friend. Sharon social media or leave us a rating and review in apple podcasts. It really helps new listeners. Find on the app. You can get in touch with us on social media. This show is on instagram. At the job crisis and i'm on their too and on twitter at mrs press. Finally if you'd like to support his financially look for water crisis patron. There's also a link in our instagram. But what you'd spend on a magazine each month you can be part of the wooded crisis patient community and you'll get exclusive podcast content articles and special access adler enough you guys i love you guys. I love you to be.

Coming up next