Joe Lonsdale Entrepreneurship and 8VC, First Meeting (First Meeting, EP.09)


Today's show is sponsored by canoe intelligence. You may remember canoe from earlier this year. It's the first technology that automates the highly frustrating and time consuming and costly manual workflows related to document management and data extraction for alternative investment reporting canoe combines binds over fifty years of investment experience with cutting edge machine learning and AI technology and they're laser focused on solving this problem firms like like step stone group Canterbury Consulting Promise Holdings and dozens of other institutional investment and asset servicing firms have already chosen canoe to optimize their workflows. A bunch of my friends reached out to them as well after hearing their first set of ads on the show and they've all been impressed by what they found canoes rapid growth is a testament to the real need in our space. I highly recommend you visit canoe. INTELLIGENCE DOT COM to learn more. Hello I'm Ted CDs and this is capital allocators. This show is an open exploration of the people and process behind capital allocation through conversations with leaders in the money game. We learn learn how these holders of the keys to the kingdom allocate their time and their capital. You can keep up to date by visiting capitol. ALLOCATORS PODCASTS DOT COM. My guest on today's show is Joe Lonsdale on stale a founding partner eat. Vc a leading venture capital firm the partners with top founders and entrepreneurs to build lasting technology platforms forums. He began working at Peter Teal's pay pal while Joe is an Undergrad Stanford and upon graduation became an early executive at teals Clarion Orient Capital which became a multibillion dollar global macro hedge fund from within Clarion Joe went on to become a CO founder of Pailin Tier and later founded at a park and open gut after operating the series of successful startups he turned to early stage venture investing for himself and then as a founding partner of formation eight the precursor to eight the two thousand sixteen and two thousand seventeen joe was the youngest member of the the Forbes one hundred MIDAS list our conversation begins with Joe's dive into entrepreneurship out of school the founding of Pailin Tier and Atta Park and his shift from operator venture capitalist. We then discussed venture landscape. ABC's competitive advantage building new companies within ABC AC price competition deals the due diligence process adding value to portfolio companies and new ideas on the horizon in venture investing although we're pressed for time jopacks the conversation with great nuggets of wisdom from his incredible success this podcast has for informational channel purposes only and should not be relied upon based investment decisions all opinions expressed by gus on the show or solely their own opinion and do not necessarily reflect those of their firm managers appearance on the show does not constitute an endorsement investment recommendation by Ted or capital allocators. Today's show is sponsored by Northern Trust Front office solutions. That's when I talked to investment teams CEO's. They often echoed the same concern they spend too much time managing data and not enough time analyzing it two years years ago northern trust took a different approach to this problem and funded an internal startup called. Northern Trust Front office solutions. They gathered together a former endowment michief operating officer a front office technologist from a Multi Billion Dollar Hedge Fund Award Winning Design Team and Fintech company founded by Quanta coded wait for Harry Markowitz himself working alongside dozens of clients to take on this shared mission. The result is a cloud based custody agnostic platform warm that empowers acid owners with better operations and technology support to meet their middle and front office needs visit northern trust dot com slash solutions lucians for more information. Please enjoy my first meeting with Joe Lonsdale of Eight Joe. Thanks for joining me. Thanks Ted. Why are we start with how you got involved in entrepreneurship. I grew up right around here. In San Francisco. Go Bay area right in Silicon Valley and I guess when I was thirteen fourteen fifteen my friend's older brothers raw building companies because it was late nineties so I started at pretty interested and what was your first venture. First thing I started myself was actually pounds here but I was. I was involved with a bunch of things in high school. One of my friend's fathers was senior. Intel off any gossip bunch of really inexpensive chips and we we overclock them and then we got him to to give us the materials to super cool it and play with that. It was really good for playing quake too but you know it wasn't it turns out. No one else really wanted to buy them so it was much more exploring and be part of other people's companies for the first four or five years. I guess pay Pal for Serious Company. I was apart as an intern for a couple of years. What what was your angle. Did you come at it from technology side from the business side the computer scientists originally so I studied computer science when I was Gosh Ten or eleven my friends Tommy to program and we built games. We built programs. Would your math homework for us and that sort of thing and then pay pal. I saw a lot of really smart people going there so I actually got turned down the very first time am I applied there as a programmer. When I was quite young Max luncheon who's now a friend I mean do stuff on the white board and we debated things and they never got an offer from that but then Peter brought me back the next summer and I started started working at paypal and so you went from pay pal originally into Peter's ecosystem yeah exactly so I got to know Peter from entrepreneurship suffered from a paper he'd started called the Stanford Review. Show is editor of and start talking about different things with him and he brought me in along with a couple of other people as a summer intern in the I ended up working for his family the office and I helped him US starting a hedge fund and I helped higher bunch people there so I kind of started working with him on a bunch of things and what was the original idea propounded here well you know they're actually a lot of things being started at the time at Clarion. The Hedge Fund in some of them were quite crazy. There's this thing that was like trying to mental stimulation that was supposed to do things. Thanks good for your brain that ended up being people nightmares other effects to talk about. There was a spam company. There was a restaurant listening millions lars on there's lots of things and of course Peter there was also the time a big investor facebook's. That's another facebook founders really well so just there's all sorts of things going on some of them crazy some of them not as crazy obviously although it was really hard to tell at the time what were the best nice things in it and hired a bunch of my friends at the hedge fund help us with programming and building things and some of them really didn't like finance very much since waste where we're going to work on and we'd had this idea that initially repeaters idea from pay pal like these people were talking to the secret service at the FBI helping us. We try to arrest these bad guys tweet building better technology for them doing something to take. We've learned and apply it to DC. So the idea came from sort of being there inside clarion well. The idea was from pay pal originally where the Chinese and Russian mafia were stealing sealing off our money in there about a competitor's bankrupt to these online money laundering efforts. That's from hacking into the system. Yes Sir so you go to a seven eleven and buy something and the person some behind the counter somehow takes. Snapshot Writes Down Your Credit Card number and because there's now Russians online as of the year two thousand two thousand one ninety nine who are willing going to pay a lot of money for credit card numbers. Maybe five ten bucks you write down a few hundred of these. It's a nice way make money on the size as someone in they take the money run it through pay pal by the time you realize it's fraud fraud the money's already out of the system and then pay packets hit by a charge back so there's all sorts of versions of pay pal losing huge amounts of money to allow competitors and what role did you initially play at here so pound here. I was the founder who created the company and got going there. Lots of things going on around the time it's idea he played with. I took some of the people who had hired tired. Hedge Fund for better or worse. I became a leader the hedge fund the number two guy there was a genius but was also not really a manager so I was kind of helping me lots of things and just kind of fill the avoid as a overconfident twenty one year old running this paper on this thing and run a big drain account there and debating the trading with Peter and then allies guys working for me and a few of them. She didn't really WANNA work finance stuff and I said you know what let's let's prototype. My roommate is down for at the time really really bright guy she along with me we started just running and staying up late at night and sketching applic- different ways that the product could work for the CIA missing Peter to give us a pleasure to fly out and talk to people we knew in DC and he knew in DC a few other adults there were times he this is crazy as even worse than your restaurant and your other ideas. You're doing stop these kids from talking to these people and then to headed to take off from their point in time. Did you leave Claremont. Just dedicate to pound here. We got a little office away on Sandhill road appears old offices and we started using that and started building it out and Peter helped us bring on one of the guys from pay pal became another Co founder Nathan he just started working on it and I was working on it part time we were testing it out and trying it out but it was about a year and Judas Clara starting to get really exciting and I ended up moving there fulltime to start start hiring at the team ended up high most of the first hundred people on help from the products and built it out and at what point in time did you say okay this things off on a tone and time to step away. It was about five or six years of working on it pretty intensely in hiring team building a culture and what happened was is that we built out the government side in about three or four lawyers into it was unclear how long governments I was GONNA take to ramp up so I signed to build the finance side of the company as well so so pounder ended up building out a commercial division where we started with the finance side and we had a few early customers like bridgewater another issue ended up using a system for over ten years as with their analysts did their work so really built out a commercial side of it as well as that was scaling. I'd I fully vested my shares in the company about four or five years in and I was as another division in the company by realized. Maybe we should do something on my on more of I was really passionate about this for Outta par so I stepped aside lied about five and a Half Years Union started working on adipose instead until we're the antequera idea come out of his partially from stuff pound here with seeing when I was seeing in general is building my own very small family office at at the time and realized that that s face was very broken the technology religion at work for it a talk to my friends who are running large offices they had similar complaints and the big theme we have which in general in world in the last ten years and Silicon Valley is. There's these industries where there's platforms that should be using data run them better and that are not realize if you WANNA fix a lot of different parts of the financial world. You needed a platform what form this is on top of the money. So part of the idea was to be the software for our as for family offices for banks and be able to have lots of ways that you can kinda talk to the money through the platform and when you dive into one of these ideas you mentioned a couple times your friend for your roommate from Stanford a bunch of your friends. How do you start to build one of these off of the idea. Well I think the number one thing is getting the very top talent with the computer scientists you WanNa culture where people are really really obsessed. You want to agree on what the mission is and why missions important and yet have mission in a set of people that attract the other people on the becomes a positive something so this is a very intense few years getting them going and convincing others to help you and making sure his own enough of it and then I'm a product guy so it's catch up the product than you. I have to have the marketing sales analysis and you have to go entering talk to a lot of people get a lot of feedback evolve the product time based on that one of the key things for the early engineers is they have to to be on a mock up quickly. You need to get feedback ain't data rate and at what point in time did you shift from being an operator to venture capitals so the thing is really proud about pounds here and then later at par is we had some of the very top talents panthers rate number one in Silicon Valley for the engineers. We were attracting and what happens. A lot of talent will come a place for three four five years. Some of them will stay the whole time still people who've been there for fifteen years now but a lot of them after a while but go on they'll. WanNa build something around so I had probably about ten or eleven different from France who had worked with in some capacity pounds here or even out of pure parley on building things on their own and I was being small investments in them from my office. I was advising them and I realized so that's something I really enjoy doing even more than enjoyed Brian the company day to day. At what point in time did you say okay. I'm going to start a venture capital firm that created. I guess it was formation. Take the time yeah. Formation Eight was the first real serious firm had a small fund. We called the before and that the fund was just with family in France in my own money and we did a bunch of angel investing and that was actually really good because even though that fund is over ten exited great. I also did a lot of dumb things so I think you learn by doing things right so so you want to make mistakes before you do it with larger amounts of money but but after doing that seeing it working well started have really strong opinions a scientist start a fund two thousand eleven. I guess when we decided to start it close. Our first fund the very end of two thousand twelve and then at some point in time. I guess some of your original partners cited not to continue in you continued on yeah you know I think everyone has different ways of running and managing these things and so one of the things we always talk about with our entrepreneurs defined unfair advantages because he's so hard to start one of my unfair advantages. Starting permission eight was the Meyer early partner is Family Bill Elgin Korea. His father gave us fifty million dollars anchor. I was able to raise with my network most of the remaining four hundred forty million dollars raised but it was really really great to have him and have a help early on it turned out that the way we understood entrepreneurship way we manage things are preferences provide different gone through fewer bigger things having a lot more people on my team still a lot more more connections in the network. We held a lot of events I like doing lots of thesis papers and whatnot so we have different ways of doing things the most team came with me and we split off our third which now call ABC. I see so what you're segment of venture landscape. Today venture capitals obviously at much larger asset class than it was ten or fifteen years ago which which makes a lot of intuitive. It's much bigger part of the economy right so used to be in venture capital that maybe you'd have people coming to Silicon Valley. Who are the does or who run different special initiatives for big companies companies. Now the people coming in Silicon Valley are the CEO's the fortune five hundred companies. It's the people who are actually making the decisions and actually out the corporate strategy for the biggest companies in the world. That's fraud reasons right because the technology is redefining. What's possible in these industries so venture world has become a lot broader and causing a lot more things than having to do a lot more money at stake. How do you stay competitive entry. Actually a few different things at say one is that the people who are running the top venture firms right now are almost all founders unders successful companies and so as someone who's founded a few quite successful companies as big advanced hunters. WanNa work with our founders and if you look at the very big names venture capital obviously Marc Andreessen very well known enter Peter Thiel who I work with learn a lot from or Marceca sauce on the board of is there starts. I've learned from both those guys or if you look note Khosla or even Reid Hoffman did linked in who's with the the pay path list goes on and on like all these same people have heard of their founders of big companies and so there are very rare exceptions from the previous generation. I think March is great exception of someone who never found that a company and I think you could do that in the eighties or nineties and be aggressive capless. It's very rare these days so first of all being a founders advantage. I think second of all being in touch of being close to lots of other founders is very important. Jordan says one thing we've spent a lot of time doing is we happen to have a lot of friends who built companies. We've enjoy spending time with them. It's not my social life is here in Silicon Valley interacting with other founders and that's you have to do that to do things well counters that wants to know where the town's going what's going on. They're kind of decor top than our way to put. It is an L. A. If you want to know what's going on you probably I want to hang out with the list actors the diplomatic them in DC pylon like with the senators with people around the president of the heads of agencies. The founders are the ones who run things here in Silicon Valley number one one so let's walk through kind of step-by-step your investment process and just start with where the ideas come from the end up investing in a Lotta ways that come from half of the deals are and referred from other founders. We're talking about a lot of them. Come from looking what we want to build ourselves networks. That's the one thing we do at our firm. That's different than a lot of other firms. Is We still use about ten percent of the fun on towards things we're building ourselves and we're very involved entrepreneurs and a lot of times. I'll be looking at a space with a really really deep on the macro happenings area of healthcare what's happening in Syria. Logistics get to know all the people who are leaders in that field in spend a lot of time with them in based on doing nat. Go oftentimes be referring to something that we think is really smart. They actually rather than build something. Let's just invest listen. I think over there what's the recent example of recent example is looking into logistics and we're trying to understand Amazon when they ship something when you order. It's about seventy miles away from on average the time you click. It's the time it comes to you. Amazon's forty percent of the market the other sixty percent market when you click it and you ask how far away from you it is as eleven hundred miles so as much worse much much better at this problem which is why they can ship things guaranteed one day sometimes two days runoff three to five. We practice with this and we looked all around figured it out. We've tried to fail. We're going to build. We found a guy who had done it in Amazon. Something related we say wow. This is the guy who was already thinking about this problem. We are able to help them think about it even better. Thanks doing so therefore we were able to. Kinda lead his first round of financing being on much better terms. We never found this guy from Seattle. We have been thinking about this idea now. It's a really fast growing company called deliver. It's this race big brown spots raise another really the gap around we put on Walmart for a bunch of their merchants rather than three to five shifting they distinct garrity wanted to shipping in those merchants sales doubled when she's told consumers had it work. We basically have a virtual warehouse networking to our house compete against each other so you keep about forty or fifty warehouses that we manage. We manage all the carriers for them so they just give us the inventory we rebound for them. We ship it for them and handle. It all turns out. There's several two hundred billion dollars. A year on the economy spent this way really thing now and even if you can get the margins to ten fifteen percent which we think we can. That's that's a big market henny. Think about the risk reward. If something we were starting from scratch compared to something might be a be rec- round so most of what we do is series A. N. B. and it's very funny. It's Silicon Valley. What means what it used to be. This seed round was the very first round and half million or a million and you might do a second small Cedar. He might do an A. which the old days it'd be like three to eight these days. Lotta Times people people raise a seed round is actually what we used to call him. Hey let's raise five or ten star you just there's more money available one of the kind of hidden secrets. We don't talk about as much. Is this a lot more serial. Entrepreneurs even skied on something else before it was very successful Amazon so someone's done something before the show you know what they're doing. It's a very different conversation so much easier fusi investor. You're not coaching him through some really really biggest mistakes that person may building a company so able to give them more upfront and so. I liked doing early investments with really town person because you already know this on the table but you're able to get a great deal do a lot of be rounds as well. There were some things really just starting to work. The tough thing right now in this market environment is that there's a lot a lot of players coming down trying to be around as well so I was. I was just outbid last month for something I love about sixty percent from a firm I won't mention the name but as a firm that writes regularly one hundred hundred million dollar checks excited come down and write a thirty million dollar check so it it is a little bit annoying to see like bs and cs are getting more expensive. Which is the reason? I like to try to stay early. How do you balance out. You've gotta the deal company like presumably a founder like someone WHO's coming down. It's going to price it up. How do you think about at what point in time you say no. That's too expensive. It's really hard. We have different costs the capital so you even though our funds are six hundred forty million dollar fines because we're venture capital firm or bars were looking for ten x on the low end and that's what you have to do our first firms over forty percent. IRR are fifty. We're going for the thirties. At least these guys are perfectly happy with the low twenty S. There's nothing wrong with ads is different so I've told the team. We're going to lose it by not bidding high enough. If it's GonNa that'd be something for someone else's happy to get twenty. Percents are not happy with that so it's tax minimum in threes. I are minimum near thing is basically you WanNa work with people giving US deal L. because they want to work with us. Venture capitals very different than ahead Sean. We're not like a hedge fund that just like being more most of the time we're getting all these things people could have gone from somebody nobody else in the market who's not taught founders insiders and could raise a higher valuation but then they're not going to get our help in a variety of ways. What are those special pieces kind of the pitch to the entrepreneur about what you're gonNA the other people can't there's almost not even really a pitch because most these guys like one of my friends she started to companies each over a hundred million air are very famous kind of enterprise company builder and is building a new company in he had an idea around it and we shared a bunch of notes and he came and he let us put money in fifteen million dollars pre money valuation. It wasn't be be pitching him as he knows who I am. He wants me involved. We've talked about it a bunch of times before I know who he is. I'm really honored to be able to invest fifteen pre because I knew he could have gone out made a bunch of noise and and raise it fifty sixty pre very easily gives track record so it's more people already know he. I think what they're looking for is looking for people who are GONNA. Give them the best advice who's involved. It's GonNa be a signal to other top uptown. This is a worthwhile thing we have time to build networks. He's entrepreneurs don't so our job is to know the top people in these different fields in this case. He's selling a information officers these before two hundred companies. He's we know tons of those because they're working with all companies must use our network for that and venture capital is very interesting asset class is very high correlation for a lot of these reasons and so such as is a very big unfair advantage once you're winning you kind of keep winning if you do it right how much of that scales beyond you individually to affirm a lot of does right but ABC's ABC's invest in something that's eight hundred invest is not is not me this invested in so each right even partners will work on building their own relationships in these different industries and sometimes. I'll help but but a lot of times we'll build something. I WANNA see guy for three years for my partner talk some every month or something. That's a great example is with Andrew. Witty is our senior adviser. He ran. Gsk Es came in England for over a decade and be started working a lot with us as he was stepping down from that and he was on the board of United he ended up agreeing to become CEO optum which software company in America is big part out of it. You agree to stay senior. Adviser carved out which is awesome. I'm a big fan of his by partner drew. Someone who's really famous scientists in the last three years. I don't really see him that much but he's been extremely helpful going joining meetings with our most important companies helping us close deals and stuff. How does your due diligence process work. Who's The entrepreneur or the people there who the people here she's hiring. It's at the first three or four people matter. A lot was the upside structure. Look like if you're hiring a bunch of people and not giving any upside. I'm very skeptical of you. As a top venture company outsiders don't realize you can't just take company and take ninety percent for for yourself and that actually means. It's not really a venture company and he was something else that we wouldn't want to invest in and then obviously like what you're planning industry and then what people need to think about that who we respect do do. We think that the path is reasonable. How much of it do you focus on the products in the market compared to the people involved and then the people early stages the number one most important Gordon thing. I think what matters is there. Actually is a conceptual gap to fill so so from a macro top down perspective. Is there something there could be a network effect or platform effect or in other. There's something new that's possible. In this market that really does matter where there really is a gap and then you have the right people to do it and once you've got that alignment with the people running it how difficult to the deal dynamics given the competitive environment today. They're definitely getting a lot more difficult in some cases they were in the past. There's still this thing where we have. Our Network of people we spend are most time with the several hundred of them and we're. GonNa have advanced with a lot of these entrepreneurs and these people and so I think it's very very hard to build a new firm unless you happen to have a group people who built a bunch of companies that have their own big network network already. That's willing to kind of make one of their first choices but because we have that oil up beyond the inside track for these things but yet things are a lot more competitive in the later stage Gannon's China's game to a point where I'd be very very careful too much like stage right now so once you're in the deal. Would you try to do to help these companies grow. You know there's only a really a few things that really matter of resources. It's really people and it's money and so those are both things we're really good at our comes as over ten billion dollars after we've invested in over the last Arison eareckson. That's our job is it'd be good helping with that. Obviously people something we spent a lot of time on one of my partners. Yummy bill pound here the same play but we we present fifteen eighteen or twenty big schools and we Kinda map out where all the top talent is and we have tons of events. SELENA got a hundred eighty events last year. What kind of events dinners etc downstairs air cigars night or all sorts of things sometimes bring nursing speaker for people to meet depending? Sometimes we get together leaders in one specific area the all bring logistic. CEO's and bring thirty different people who run things logistics ran Walmart's logistics or ups or whatever things like that and you'll bring talent and you'll just make sure the next us when we analyze the talented and then we help people. Here's how you recruit talents. Here's people are good fits for you just typical stuff. It's kind of a weird situation 'cause you. Don't want to invest people who can't do it for themselves. But then you want to help them on on top of it I think money and talents and then of course there's like key advisers so someone like Andrew Witty who runs off from coming to a meeting really big deal closing how close million dollar deal that's really healthful out in key advisers and then strategy session sitting down doing strategy my favorite parts of strategy sessions. CAS website. You've got this advisory board that spans lots of entrepreneurs entrepreneurs very senior company executives people in entertainment any think about that specific network and how you use them each ones different right so we have thirty people people are firm really as twelve people on the team in each person investment team is working with a managing different advisors for different goals in so you have some people who you really just want alike bring to certain things because they bring people around them. If you want to be around especially couple of entertainment guys of they're going to be at something. It's easier to all right and it's easier to get the get access to things where whereas others others are specifically really really helpful for getting deals done in a certain part of healthcare certain parts of finance or whatever what's the to go back to the old Michael Lewis expression. What's the new new thing right now in the valley. I think the most important question in metro capital is what's possible now. That wasn't possible five years ago right because if you want to invest in ridesharing we did before the phone it doesn't makes sense twelve thirteen years so as you had done it within a few year window to really make a lot of money on it and so I think right now there's a few areas but right now the most exciting setting area to me is the renaissance in Biology. You're seeing going on what particular aspect of biology is turned in a lot of areas into information sciences while as well as just like a life science science and so it used to be in the valley. You're either life science guy or you're an. It guy but they're literally platforms that can do things to sound like science fiction right now like one of our companies simply. Go is the leading gene any other company and there's a data network effect so they've got much much more accurate than anybody else gene editing which means they can engineer cells. Nobody else engineer which is also selling sells directly people say Gimme the cell with these twelve thousand people ordering from them now and that's growing an amazing speech and it turns out. There's always do cell therapy. Do things like that and then there's because of newsouth therapies there's other our tools is a whole another company. That's this sorting sells a billion in a time using semiconductor technology and it turned out that applies time tens of therapies and there are saving lives with ads. There's all all sorts of these things that you never would've even thought of doing five years ago there possible now. The list goes on in terms of these kinds of biology. It crossover thanks so when you have a set of opportunities retuning. How much do you dive into just that sector and then just keep going deeper. or how much do you kind of bet on just one company when opportunity well so. I think there's a lot of things going on sectors actress. We've built a team rounded and we spent a lot of time on my doubts about twenty five percent of what we're doing as a fun. I'd say within the Renaissance and Biology area right now join over time can change so I want to get a a little bit time turned some fun closing questions. What's your favorite hobby or activity outside of work family while my favorite hobbies probably policy work we're trying to do nonpartisan partisan type things where he right up legislation or other things that are trying to help fix the government. Mitch Country Work Better as Lama Favorite Hobby Rain particularly when you focus on one of my favorites is criminal justice this reform because people are really into that right now and it turns out you change the incentives for probation parole departments to actually make it so they actually care about rehabilitation and you actually help people so there's just things like that. You could do you that people aren't doing. What's your biggest pet peeve. When it comes to areas like that I get very annoyed at people who are running our society understand incentives markets so what's your biggest investment pet peeve as an investor in venture capital the number one thing is just being really fully aligned with the people you're investing in and and I think when people build a company say they're all in and then they give up too easily. I think this celebration of failure to me is really disgusting. It's okay to fail if you try really really hard to give it. Your all is not okay. NFL because you've got distracted a new side not to anymore. I think that's a big issue. What reading do you almost never miss. Most of what I read is stuff. That's sends me but I I do really enjoy the economist all right what teaching from your parents as most stayed with you one of the things my father Tommy is really important was really focused on taking joy in the success of people around. How'd you can't fake it but if you really are enjoying the people around you then people will see that and then you go really far in life more. What life lessons. Have you learned that you wish wish you knew a lot earlier in life well. I think the last few years we've really focused with a bunch of our companies on taking governance really really seriously. I think there's a stereotype of in Silicon Valley as partially correct which is this. You're going really fast and your entrepreneurial on. There's no time for lawyers and bureaucratic. WHO'S GONNA slow you down. I think if you WanNa do something that's really important. It's GONNA be around for decades. It's really important to focus on governance and focus on actually dined the is and crossing a cheese and making that as part of a great organization. It's awesome tomorrow Joe. Thanks so much for taking time thanks to him. Thanks for listening to this episode. If you know a manager you'd like to hear on the show. Please reach out or ask the manager to reach out to Ted at at capital allocators dot com we greatly appreciate your ideas and we'll do our best to help foster transparency and communication across the industry

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