Managing Creativity - Deborah Rutter, President, John F. Kennedy Center For The Performing Arts
Creativity is the driving force of innovation without creativity. Innovation might be just luck and since creativity plays such a major role in the process of innovation. We might as well learn from the professionals whose life is creative by definition. That is a quote from lead ore was Ascii an artist and adviser on innovation. We know innovation is the key to success in the twenty first century economy and to finding solutions for the world's most intractable problems including climate change. Turn it of energy water scarcity and how to finally achieve economic equity for women. But what can innovators learn from artists? How do you manage creative people successfully as a business leader today? We're going to find out from the leader of one of the world's major temples of creativity. So sit back and get ready for fascinating conversation. Welcome to green connections radio where we bring you insights and tips from remarkably innovative women especially those doing some kind of work in energy climate sustainability and corporate responsibility. I'm John Michaelson. We talk about innovation. Leadership new technologies and careers always bringing a new perspective. Find US ANYWHERE. You like to listen to podcasts. And on our website green connections radio DOT COM and through my Forbes blog as well and please pass it onto your friends. Artists are using their senses all the time they observe the world around them and continuously collect raw material which they use later in their work that was also from was Oscar. He continued very briefly for an artist. Anything can be raw material. Their key artists are curious about anything they come across. And if you want to innovate that is exactly what you should do. I couldn't agree more with Zaslavsky. Innovation is indeed a marriage of art method and to explore this connection. And more. We've come to one of the world's most venerable institution's of creativity the John F. Kennedy Center for the Performing Arts in Washington. Dc since one thousand nine hundred seventy one. The Kennedy Center has been reflecting and driving the conversation about the performing arts in the United States and around the globe a few months ago the Kennedy Center expanded creating a new campus focused on bringing the public into the creative process called reach. They also made sure to build it with sustainability in mind including as an lead certified building. We're here to talk about the intersection of art. Innovation including managing creative people in the creative process and the new reach campus and some of its sustainability features and get a bit of career advice from their esteemed leader. I'd like you to meet Deborah. Rutter President and artistic and administrative director of the Kennedy Center for the Performing Arts which the website describes as the world's busiest Performing Arts Center. Okay so I'm a native New Yorker and I think the Lincoln Center for the Performing Arts argue with that label a little bit but we'll let slot. Deborah has been in management her entire career coming to the Kennedy Center in two thousand fourteen after many years as president of the Chicago Symphony Orchestra. One of the world's most claimed orchestras and before that executive director of the Seattle Symphony. She has Grad undergraduate degree from Stanford in her MBA from USC. And I have to throw in the because I am a ucla alum myself. I'll have to forgive you about that. One Fun factoid about Deborah is she has been on both sides of the baton having played violin in orchestras throughout her education. I tried the violin without much success however so without further. Ado I'm delighted. The Deborah's joining us live in person at the Kennedy Center. Welcome Deborah to green connections radio. Thank you for joining us. Thank you and welcome to the Kennedy Center. Thank you so much. I am a particular fan of the performing arts having grown up around them in New York City and is dancer myself and I come from a long line of accomplished musicians so I feel at home. I WANNA start off with a few questions. What's your favorite book? Well I just read at last fall tunnel. Pc Coats the water dancer and it has stayed in my heart my mind And played back over and over again and so It is the first one that just sort of POPs out of my head. I just love the way he writes. I love his perspective and I thought the book was magnificent cool. Who is your favorite woman leader? Well it's hard not to say Ruth Bader GINSBURG In this city she is remarkable for her personal leadership professional leadership and her passion for the arts. But I would say madeleine. Albright is a close second. I love it. I saw all the movies in their terrific. Let me put the Kennedy Center into perspective with a few factories for anybody who doesn't know this. It hosts over two million visitors a year with over twenty two hundred performances each year that I had no idea over. Four hundred of them are free by the way. If you WANNA come come on down and it serves about one point. Four million students per year and has programs around the country as well so let me dive into it this way. How does the Kennedy Center choose which performances to host or produce? Because I would imagine you could do seven times. Well it would be hard because there are only three hundred sixty five days a year and there are a few of those days that are more challenging. I will tell you it's harder to program on Super Bowl Sunday than it is on Christmas Day Which is not something. Most people would think about So the John F. Kennedy Center for the Performing Arts is the nation's cultural center and I say that because many people either don't know or forget that and when I came to the center I really took that responsibility seriously and I with my colleagues thought hard about whether or not we were really fulfilling the mandate to be the National Cultural Center. Which for me and my colleagues means not just the three big three four big art forms that people think of in these big performing arts centers so beyond Theatre Opera Symphony Orchestra Ballet Dance. How do you really fulfill the mandate to serve all of our country and all of the performing arts to all of our country and so as a result we have added quite a bit in terms of what we produce what we present here as well? When I came here we already had a very successful Jazz Program Chamber Music We have colleagues who present in the community from the community here at the center as well and our international festivals have been always a big draw. But we knew that there were art forms and artists. That didn't feel that they had a home here at the center so it was really over the the this period of time that we've been expanding the variety of programming that we have give us an example so we have a director of hip hop and artistic director and also a program director of hip hop. We had when I first came here. We were presenting three or four comedy shows a year and of course Mark Twain Prize which everybody knows so. Well now we do about seventy of those each year and I would say increasingly the program that is Really the most exciting is the art form that you can't describe it's the one that's the blend of hip hop theater or music and dance. That might be nontraditional in presentation format so it is those sort of boundary genre just breaking art forms that are really the ones that changing the way people think about the Kennedy Center as well. And that's what creativity is about. Right is is stretching the boundaries. Creating breaking them down really creative. People are a unique breed. We're curious for energetic. We also can be quixotic. And frankly edgy and just odd right. Not everyone can manage creative people successfully. You seem to be a master of it. You've done it your whole career in arts manager Performing Arts Management and you obviously managed a huge team. Here what do you think is unique about managing creative people? And what recommendations would you give to any manager business leader? Who wants to manage for creativity manage creative people? I think probably the most important one is to being a good listener and listen for understanding compassion and beyond the most immediate Definition of how an artist or an individual's describing what they're thinking about and I say that I'm not a very patient person. If you asked anybody around me you would say well. Patients is not a virtue of Deborah Rutter. But I in the case of when I'm engaging with creative people I listen and wait for deeper understanding of what they're trying to communicate and what they're trying to achieve I do not make snap opinions about an artist's idea. In fact I think many of my colleagues would love made make faster decisions or brush aside an idea or accept another idea faster but I think you need to allow an artist and their idea unfold and further develop and for other than to offer ideas and ways to expand on. Whatever that creative spark might be I I think that comes from my own little bit of insecurity of do. I really understand what they're trying to do. Why are they trying to do that? We have I missed something and so it is a process of waiting and letting it. An idea simmer An and not having prejudged opinion about what's going to be good or not. I think also you have to give up a little bit of control in that process and so I find that people who need to know the shape of package need to know the length of the project need to know you know what the final outcome is going to be will never be as good at pulling out the potential of an artist or creative individual as one who is willing to let it just unfold and so while I am not in a patient person. I actually understand that the process of developing an idea takes time. It doesn't happen on a specific time schedule. Always but that if you can give an artist space and time or create any creative individual because there are plenty of creative individuals would not say that they're artists if you give them the space to really develop their ideas it will be much better one at the end and that we can all sort of jump on the bandwagon and go with. I'll give you a really good example. When Renee Fleming was invited by myself to come and be an artistic partner. She came into sort of a planning meeting with me and then subsequent meetings with colleagues with sheets and sheets of ideas she. She is amazing. It coming up with all kinds of thoughts and processes aware. She grabbed this idea. Where did this project come from and I listened and I thought Oh my Gosh. This is almost too many really great ideas. What are we going to do but by having multiple conversations with her and then having that conversation with others as well we realized that there was the potential of something really monumental that we could do uniquely here in Washington DC and with Renee Fleming and ultimately it was about having multiple conversations and then she sat next to Francis Collins Director of the National Institutes of Health at a dinner party and they were talking about it and he too said Oh. My Gosh this is really extraordinary. And because we allowed this idea to simmer and percolate and talk with other people about it we eventually created a program called sound health and it is a project that had its early beginnings here at the center in a very small way with the concerts at the NIH with the National Symphony Orchestra but it has now grown over these years to be a movement around the study of the impact of music on the brain. The National Institutes of health are now investing quite significantly in research in this area. We have a partner in the National Endowment for the arts. We're looking at extending that partnership and we've been doing national programs. Rene takes this program whenever she goes anywhere on tour and it has become a really important part of the Kennedy Center and it all came out of this conversation with her amongst a list of many ideas that she had that said. I think there's something about arts and wellness that I think we should be studying and I thought how in the world are we gonNa do this or are we going to be selling candles aromatherapy candles at the gift shop. What is this going to be? And if I had at that moment said not really are deal. It would never have come to this place where we're doing something that is so important for our country not let alone having some understanding of the importance of music and brain health and brain development. Does that make sense? It's perfect actually and there's so many things come to mind one is The the audio that is related to getting good sleep now as well and also. I'm actually thinking of people who have who are on the autism spectrum who may not do as well with words but respond well to the arts She's brilliant. I adore her And so I. I love that you didn't. You didn't let the overwhelm shut you down having you know when you've reached that point of what's your criteria that sounds like you don't actually have a checklist. Fortunately but what Wyche how do you? How can you tell when you arrived at that? Cool idea that ties it all together or that. You're going to move forward with well. I think this is the fundamental concept of an artist. Which is that. A true artist is never fully satisfied. They're always searching. They're always looking for the right next thing and have we done enough and is this right. That's about personal growth. That's about curiosity that's about ongoing investment of creativity and so It's hard to answer that question without falling back on that but I will say that it is There is always that moment. The tipping point that moment when you say a. Ha this actually is resonating with other people as well And I have some really great colleagues on my staff here. Who will come listen to an idea? And then ask a million questions so that you can further refine define and improve on your ideas so that it actually can go further when we were developing the reach. It wasn't really clear when I got here. Why we were expanding the Kennedy Center other than the fact that we didn't have enough rehearsal spaces and we needed better places to have parties. I mean that's really not a great reason in my opinion to ask a bunch of people to give you a lot of money to build a big new wonderful building and so I sat with my colleagues here at the Kennedy Center and said what do we do. Well what do we not do so well? What do we need for spaces? And what could we do if we had better spaces and we had brainstorming meetings over the course of about four months? But what was really interesting. Is that Those conversations then allowed me and those colleagues to do as we do go out in the world see programs talk to people be in other parts of the world and here and see in real time ideas that we've been talking about on our own so we all come back at the end of that time and we brainstormed sort of an articulation of what we WANNA do with the reach and we realized that what we had had expressed during those brainstorming meetings and then going out into the world and talking to artists and talking to other arts organizations we came back and we said this is what we need and it doesn't exist anywhere in the world and if we had begged to be able to create this in the first place maybe we wouldn't be able to but given that were already in this project. This is what we want to do with it and it made so much sense to a large collective of us but it was iterative process. It was about allowing People to be as creative and as crazy as you possibly could imagine and then noticing when there was really a fantastic moment that we all had to sort of say. That's it. Let's go there so it's it's patients for which I again say. I'm not but allowing something to unfold and then building consensus around it. That's my role because I'm an executive. I'm an administrator. If not the artist artists probably has to do it a little bit more differently and listen to their heart and soul say. Does this make sense to me? Can I move forward with us because if you're a composer you're not doing it by forty four months of brainstorming with forty people you're sitting down and doing it but it is about an accumulation of ideas and life and I think that's why it's important for us to know the world to know the society around us? I know I'm going on and on. I agree apologize for that but I do believe that artists really reflect the world around us and they are a mirror to who we are as a society and so in that their own way they are taking that information all in and synthesizing it giving it time to percolate and then they come out with you know a symphony choreography. A new film. Whatever that might be. What do you get through their own filters and I was GonNa ask you about this anyway but we modest won't go there With the reach you bring the public in. That's a lot of the premise of it. And as a former dancer the image of having People Watch me. Rehearse or choreograph is a bit of watching the being made but I sat. I watched some at the reach before How did your how did that part of it come about? And how did you decide that that was going to be a good thing because you are after all the business head right? So you have to have a business. It has to be a viable business idea as well as something. That's really cool creatively and this. It really is unusual. I mean you know if if I don't think juilliard has people come in and watch them. You know the students necessarily learn to dance. So how did you come up with that party? And what's the point? This absolutely was about three or four or five or a dozen strands of conversation that came together in those sessions that. I had with colleagues where we were saying. You know Increasingly were aware that young people want to have a greater understanding of how things are put together. If you think about the ways in which Ah Generations younger than myself and I often use my daughter as an example And she is about to twenty two years old so think about it. She was a teenager when we started this project. Jillian LOVES TO GET DRESSED UP and go to show many of us do. We've built a whole society around that kind of thing but what she really loves to do is to do all the research on. Who was that artist? How did they? Where did they come from? How did they put the show together? What's the history behind it before she goes and she sometimes does it before and sometimes she doesn't after but you. There are people in artists that she knows of that. I have never heard of. And she knows all of the back story on it because and she's not alone. This is what the youtube generation is all about. This is all the access that they get. They can learn this choreography by watching it on Youtube. They can learn about how to design this costume by watching YouTube. So reach is an analogue version of Youtube and I had I and my colleagues in that sort of critical year when we were making these decisions had just enough experiences of going to the new World Symphony where they put windows for all of the rehearsal rooms and they put up there. You know concert on the wall so that you can watch the rehearsal and the concert or I was at a meeting where a colleague running performing Arts Center said. You know we had all these street front windows where the mannequins usually stand there displaying. The clothes and they don't do that anymore. So we decided what are we going to do in putting those windows and I decided to put an artist in their painting and guess what people would stop. Stop and watch and I'm telling you this is so true the we we created the reach throughout the festival. And all the time. Now People Stan and what? Look in through the window. They can't hear what's being said. They may not even be able to hear any music and they stand wrapped watching the sausage being made. People want to know that they want to see the final product to be seeing. The sausage being made makes you more enthusiastic to see the final product. So it doesn't it doesn't ruin the mystery of absolutely not in fact the most die hard fans want to be in the rehearsal as it is being created and then they go see the show it is like being having a fan and standing afterwards to see what the artist really looks like. Not just with you know when they're on stage one way or the other. I have never seen the anybody saying well. I don't see the show because I saw the sausage now. Different generations don't have the same fascination but I will tell you that there is the most die-hard opera fan wants to see the what we call the room run. Which is where you're in addressing. You're in a big studio a rehearsal room. Everybody is in street clothes. They often wear assigned around their neck. That says this is the role playing. The conductor is in shirtsleeves. It's only with piano and they are moving about and singing. And it's the last moment before you go to the stage but it gives you a sense of how the opera is being developed. This is the same thing for theatre for dance. Certainly you know that as well people love it and so we can give it to them all the time obviously but we can give them a little snapshot of it and and what's fascinating is. That is the people who knows the art form. Love to see it being developed as well but the people who don't know the art form are completely you know agog with. Oh my gosh. That's really how it happens. I'm seeing it being created right in front of me now. I understand how one actor trains the under study and this is sort of helping people understand the creative process. I love that God. There's so much in there to unpack. I couldn't talk for about seven hours Before I ask you about your career WanNa get to one another two other quick things so that begs the question of a lot of the innovation efforts in companies now are around taking people into the room and and having you know idealization processes and and brainstorming etc. But there's always a goal because it has to it has to be product right has a product or service it has to make money etc. So what advice would you give to business leaders who WANNA have their organization? Be More innovative and yet also create a product that is or service that is home myths all the business criteria. What can they may be learned from your experience in Managing Performing Arts Organization. Well I Actually pretty notorious for being quite focused on program margin our ally. What are we doing? Why are we doing? What are we have EXP X One? The expectations of this particular activity So I'm not just the freewheeling you know give throw the money away always give more just because the artists has asked for more. Give them more. I'm pretty have a great track record in pre PROPO- performances that have done amazingly well well and so the point really is is that Really dedication to understanding what it is you're trying to achieve across. Oh an arc of time and with a series of artists as well and and this is again goes to the sense of balance you asked about. How do you know when you've got enough so we really do think hard about balancing mission? Who Are we? What are we trying to do? What's the impact and sometimes that is measurable and sometimes it's not and then. How much money does it cost to actually do this? So we think about that all the time here. How much is too much in other words? Do you need to do eight or nine or ten or twelve of an activity? Is Eight the right number? Don't forget this is one year out of many many many many years ahead and many years that we have already had so not everything has to be done each and every time. So what's the right balance? I'm good libra. So that's me sort of figuring out. How much is the right amount? And we were just talking about it. I don't believe that we will be adding lots more programming here at the center Because we've kind of figured out that if we do too many more it's too hard on the system. The physical structure of the human structure can't really put. But but we might tweak you know a little bit more of this little bit less of that in any maybe do a one offer something and do we do a series of one offs as well as the multi week. sets of activities. But I think the most important thing is that you cannot lead with what's the Roi you have to lead for me with mission and impact. And so I think that even if I were running a pharmaceutical company I want to know what the mission and impact was first and then figure out how to tweak the financial results if you lead solely with finance. I think it's really hard on your institution and I think there are a lot of opportunities and a lot of circumstances where people who lead I with finances don't have a really don't have the same end result as an institution and so. I will always go with mission and impact. But that's of course who I am well and that makes sense because you go with let the creative process. If I'm hearing you right let the creative play. Its course and then figure out what the financial locations are. And if you if its way out of whack you just say okay. So how can we still accomplish this for less or within budget or something like that? I WOULD BE REMISS. If I didn't Tag On as I said. In the introduction that reach was designed with a focus on sustainability your websites talked about landscaping strategies adapted vegetation. Whatever that is water reduction systems and even the use of some recycled materials and construction. So talked me about as you're developing. Reach where you decided to into. How did that? How did those strategies evolve? And and how did you choose? Which ones to take. Stephen Hall is the architect for the project and I was not involved with choosing him. But I was really thrilled when I came to understand his his priorities. His direction his motivations I spent a lot of time in Seattle as you mentioned and Stephen is actually from the Pacific northwest and He was asked once in an interview. And I've heard it a number of times when asked what's your favorite material to use in architecture. His answer was light. Now I love that particularly in this Iconic building of the Kennedy Center where? We don't have enough light. The reach does the reach does but what he also because his sensibility is very pacific northwest and so originally when this institution thought about this expansion they thought oh well. We'll put a building next to the building that we currently have and it would be above ground and it would be just adjacent to the Kennedy Center and they thought. Oh well it can't be done in the additional property that we have Between the Kennedy Center and the Teddy Roosevelt Bridge and highway there but he came with a completely other perspective which was to basically go underground and have these pavilions rising up out of landscape. So if you take that fundamental concept which is to complement the Kennedy Center as opposed to try and you know at another arm or or you know we. We have way too many buildings in this city. That look like they've had some really bizarre attachment like hooked up the hip of the building itself. And so he did he is created something magnificently beautiful and lyrical so appropriately adding to this memorial to John F. Kennedy and as soon as you start going underground and using concrete and embedding it and thinking about how you would deal with light and and water and the environment because it's also a very quiet environment so being really quiet on the inside is really important to us. Because that's what you need for performing arts but we're right next to two highways So we're we're basically encircled by highways. How do you create that quiet? Well through thick walls through thick window panes through the ability to have absorbed materials and being underground makes a huge impact. So I don't think the Kennedy Center Board said we will build a lead gold building but rather by choosing this magnificent visionary and by approaching it in this way we realized that we could really do something special. Couple of quick career questions Tell me about a moment mid career. Whatever that feels like to you where you had to make you made a decision that turned out to be pivotal. Why you think was pivotal. In retrospect and and what the what that tells you about making decisions going forward so why mid career take your pet you can choose however you off. Well I I have there. Several moments probably each position that I've had where I on in the moment understood that either by turning writer turning left or speaking up or not speaking up or saying we will do this or not. sor- sort of takes you in another direction and I can say that when I was building a concert hall and Seattle. There was a moment When a community group came to us and said we want you to move the location of the concert hall that you're building from the one that was for decades established in one location and they had been working for years and years to try and develop the project in one location but later Of Community Group came forward and said we thank. You should consider moving it to another location if I had said. Nope my major donor wants it there. I'm GonNa do it only there. Forget it the Bene- Roy Hall would be at Seattle Center and not across the street from the art museum and I will tell you that the the the team on either side were equally powerful but the concept of saying we could be downtown and we can change the face of downtown Seattle forever and if you go back to the history books. They'll tell you that Ben Arroyo hall coming to downtown Seattle Change Downtown Seattle because it was not an active vibrant place. It was not a destination and today it is incredible now. I'm not the only person who was involved without of course but if I had absolutely stood and insisted that we stay only with this one donor who had been funding the project up until that point we would be a totally different that that the Seattle symphony and downtown Seattle. It would be completely different and there are moments like that in each job. I think probably many of them here. The project when I first got here was at the fifty percent of design drawing for the expansion and they wanted me to sign off and I hadn't even started work here. They wanted me to sign off on fifty percent of designed drying and I said. Why are we building building? Well you want you know. Few more rehearsal. Rooms and couple classrooms probably frustrated. The heck out of him and so we stopped and it did frustrate them today. Stephen Hall will tell you that he was so overjoyed at that moment because he knew that it could be more but it was a little scary at the time. I think we all look back and say that was really pivotal moment here at the center. I think those things happen to most of us more frequently than we think. But you don't always have the same scale of it I there moments. It's about risk taking and listening to yourself and not being overly conscious for me. At least about you know if you do too much of the list of pros and cons. You'll kill yourself. You'll never make a decision. I really believe that a certain point. You have to listen to your heart. Listen to your gut and go with your instinct and do that with insights from other people. But that's probably a little bit of the sense of creativity allowing your voice to be heard even if it's only in your own head combination of data and magic if you will what I'm hearing you say is a combination of listening intuition. And what's also interesting about those stories is that especially the one about here is that you were new so you didn't have clout established yet. You were still like. Who is this woman? We know she has a great track record. Whatever but they didn't know anything about your decision making process really. I mean they were just so you. That was very courageous of you to take that Stan because you could have been alienating these this team that you now have to manage and you need their buy in to do your job so that was a big risk and so but but your point about following. Your intuition is really putting listening to other people in this. It sounds like you. You kind of know intuitively well in the end you know. Probably everybody was longing for that pause and so call it. Courage cullet Whatever you will but I think what I was doing was reading the room I think in the end everybody was saying. What are we really doing here? Can we can we talk about this a little bit more? So it's about not putting yourself out I so I I believe that I'm here to fulfill a mission and it's not my own egos mission. It's the mission of our institution. How do we become the national truly? Become the national cultural centre. How do we fulfill that mission? It's interesting because so often you hear leaders that have the bully pulpit that you have talked about wanting to leave their mark on an institution and that that that's like not your not your game at all you WanNa. Maybe it's because you're emission based Nonprofit but it's also. I think in today's world. Social Entrepreneurship is the name of the game and even big companies like PNG and and Deloitte and others you you have to have a mission in order to be successful and to attract people so enclosing We do like to focus on mid-career women because that's where the fall off is to leadership. So what advice would you give to a woman who is in mid career? Whatever that means to her or to you that who wants to use her education and her experience in. She's ambitious. She wants to make a lot of money but she wants to. Make a difference and again like you. It's not an ego thing. It's wanting to be ambitious and successful but also wanting to make a difference. What career advice would you give her? Well I have never been motivated by personal ambition. I have only ever been motivated by a fulfilling opportunities that I see around me and most of those are related to artists and the impact of art on other people so it goes to this issue of how can I make difference And through whatever it is whatever my special talent might be. I'll tell you what my special talent is. I work hard. I have no other special talent. Honestly it's just because I put in the time I talk about this with my daughter all the time because very often people and teachers will have said to her Jillian. I I value you more because you work hard. It's not just because you have talent that you get to do all of this stuff but you really dedicate yourself to whatever it is. You're doing so I'm persistent and I work really hard and if you keep working hard and you think about other people probably more than you think of yourself you will have opportunities and there are countless moments where you will feel like you have been shunted aside ignored Somebody else's had an opportunity that you haven't had but if you keep working hard and you really dedicate yourself to fulfilling the potential of who you are and what your project is I don't want to sort of copycat those sort of ideas that have been put forward. But I'm a big believer on you know. Show up and pay attention if you're there if you're paying attention if you're volunteering. Whatever that form of volunteers stepping forward to say. Oh I can do that and then me and do it. Don't wait to be invited because you may not wait. Be You may not get invited and that is not about you know. I'm going to choose my friend over this person or a male over a female It really is about people. Choose people they know. So if you are not known now you need to step forward and So this is the sort of family motto. Show up and pay attention and you will have whatever opportunity To prove yourself but you have to take it you have to fulfil on that. I love that and a couple of things. Come to my mind. One is of course the Woody Allen Line of ninety percent of life is showing up but also I interviewed Angela. Duckworth who wrote the book called Grit. How the power of passion and perseverance and it's about how in effect effort when you're talking about his effort putting in the hard work and doing the work showing up is more powerful and and gives better result than pure natural talent. I mean you hear these stories of these musicians for example who were born with extraordinary talent but they don't practice and they don't you know they're kind of a pain in the butt to deal with and this and they didn't have an ad you know it's like I don't care if they're brilliant they're paying to deal with so and so it reminds me of Angela's book a lot in her and her extraordinary tedtalk which has sixteen million views so Thank you so much. This has been really amazing Deborah wetter. I really appreciate thank you. It's been fun talking with you. Good so thank you so much for joining us today. On Green Connections Radio Debre Rudder President of the famed Kennedy Center for the Performing Arts. So what Deborah say that resonated with you. What does creativity mean to you? Tweet it to us that Joan Michael Center posted on our facebook page and like the page. While you're there. Thank you for leaving. Us review on Apple podcasts. Or wherever you're listening today and please pass it onto your friends. I'm John Michaelson. Thank you for joining us. See you next time.