The Biggest Things Missing From The Last Dance
Well Danny and I had to come on and I said we wouldn't be on until Monday but the last dance is over. I watched it with my wife. She really enjoyed it. I can probably state that I wet. Nine for ten on the Trivia exit might have been it might have been four or five camera. Only got one of them wrong. Did the little like sponsored by facebook Trivia questions but it's over and out feels kinda sad. Actually I was. I was enjoying just having something that everyone was paying attention to that. We can all comment on at the Guy. A really missed that aspect of sports And I I have to admit the montage at the end. I thought was really well done that. Kinda got me a little bit with my Dig Out my lost youth and just like how awesome. It is being in a stadium with all those people and feeling that energy and not being able to feel that now. I definitely was a in my feelings. A little bit about that but Nobody cares about me. They care about the last dance. So do you have anything that you wanted to to sum up that you've taken away at someone? I know if you're listening to talk about this. For the first time I grew up in Chicago during the nineties. Danny didn't really become a huge Basketball nerd until the mid two thousand so he didn't live those times more than just as a casual fan. So I i WanNa hear ultimately like what your take on it. I think that the the biggest thing for me it goes back to a occur. I attribute this to Ethan Truitt Strauss but going back to tyrod Kobe Bryant. Which was that Ethan noted and I? I noticed this through throughout my early career as well that Kobe was very aware of how his words were being used and was was and I don't mean this in a negative way was very engaged in in myth making and storytelling and making sure that the that all of those things fit together and what was so interesting to me about. This was from various things. One of the notable ones in the recent upsets was the the attempt to redefine the flu game as the as the food poisoning game or the pizza gave him whatever. There'd be like a little reporting on that sure sure but like the of the twentieth anniversary of someone asked about it. Yeah I there. Were a few things like that where you realized how much there was a void that was filled in that time that a water players. Lebron Koby before his before his retirement and passing that that more players are more cognizant of the now in. They do a more active job filling that I don't know if it's PR departments as well. How all of that fits together. Also players generally I would guess have more people involved in their brand and conscious of the stuff. That's something's part of social media to so there was a lot of redefinition that I thought was fascinating and also one of the other big takeaways for me. I've heard that the last episodes of this were edited after the show. After they started airing and I have a feeling that's part of why Jerry Krause positive stuff caught in there was because they realized that it it kind of rang poorly in the early episodes that he wasn't not only not there to defend himself but the way that was done and then to go in a little bit of a different direction before the Jordan. Reinsdorf thing at the very end. Oh we'll get to that. Don't worry Yeah mean the cross thing definitely and this is one thing we definitely have to talk about. Casey Johnson. When you read all these things has been posting. Experts with the Cross Family Permission Cross died in twenty seventeen and with the Cross family permission. They've posted experts of it. Kind of a documentary of an autobiography is writing. I'm not sure you mentioned that. Yeah Yeah yes all right And so he basically explained why from basketball standpoint. They broke things up A. I think we can talk about that but to me. I thought that Reinsdorf ultimately gave it away when he said it would have been suicidal to bring all these guys back that to me was he just didn't want to pay for is now. Dennis Rodman was Kinda done. I don't know how effective you could have been. But he played the next two years and was just a huge problem. He couldn't conform even enough to like beyond the team in La and Dallas the next two years and Steve Kerr basic was never really a major rotation player getting one of the next year in San Antonio but he didn't really figure and it wasn't in the rotation pippen side he signed like a seven year. Max Deal in a sign and trade which Now as it was less I think it was. He would have been six years. was a five five years because it expired in two thousand and three and then he had a swansong with the Bulls when he basically wasn't healthy and that was it for him but So that was probably in terms of his any he was on. Yeah and it was. It was sixty seven million over five years. Okay yeah thanks. So which was I think? Probably the MAC salary at that point yet they actually not remember that was before inspired by Lebron. They changed the sign and trade rules so that players couldn't make more via sign and trade back then you could and so the. Bulls structuring it. That way allowed pippen make more money not that it was some sort of humanitarian thing for them. They benefited from it. But it is what happened. Well and so luke. Longley's can be a free agent two and cross points this out in his thing that Luke. They're really concerned about his ankles. Crossed describes a meeting. Where just like everyone really had k? Scott he's going to need a second surgery in two years he's going into his mid thirty S. Mj still going But he's he's GonNa come back But you know. We don't really have Rodham Dennis. Dennis Robin Down with WANNA bring him back for that amount of money. They definitely had it within their control though to bring all those guys back. They had full bird rights on them. They could've brought them all back. But I think REINSDORF ARE. He knew the price on. Mj was going to be over thirty million dollars again. Because he'd been in ninety-seven he made thirty million and then ninety eighty made thirty three million so they knew the price that is going to be big even after the lockout. All the old salaries were grandfathered in and so I am pretty sure that Jay Reinsdorf even with the Bulls being terrible. Those next five years made more money than he would if he had brought back Jordan and pippen because they are just they had the TV deal they had sellouts forever and ever and just because of the Bulls Brand. And they had preachy payrolls. They were trying to get salary. Cap Space and rebuild in the summer of two thousand and so well I could tell to tell a short story on that So back when I was a ticket broker you know years and years ago. This is in twenty eleven. Somebody told me that the Bulls were still the had the highest season ticket holder base of any of any team in the NBA like in terms of proportion of the arena might've been proportion combined with price and you think about how what they had gone through during that time now like. I mean basically that the idea was that that have been persistent the polls happen to be very good and twenty eleven as as you all remember but it was that idea that they basically set themselves up as as a team that people wanted to see even when they were terrible so that leads to something different than like what. Donald Sterling did. Which was you know? Have a cheap team. But also people weren't going but they still make more money because the revenue sharing and all that the bulls were in a distinctively different part. But I I think that where you're getting out with can versus will is also interesting because of the way Michael Jordan pivoted which I also think was incorrect. Which was this idea that? Oh everybody would have come back on one year contracts if you ask them. I think a lot of people would have so I mean. That's I think a lot of it to me is this pip. They didn't WanNa give pipped sixty seventy right he. I don't think he was coming back for one year. I mean when you think you would have been foolish of him. I mean it'd be eighteen million and he could get sixty seven million. It'd be incredibly. Don't come back I mean. Now if they're like okay one year twenty five million okay but I don't think that would have been the deal right and so it would have been so I think the the answer is I think closer to Jordan side. It was a choice by Ryan store not to do it. It wasn't and and cross gets into this idea of like. Oh it would be be better different teams. There have been plenty of franchises. That have put good money after bad to try and remember that Bulls team would have been competitive for championship. Maybe they would've lost the spurs ended up winning that we can talk about that in ninety nine and compelled piece on that which will and there are numerous other other parts of this but it is something distinctly different. And when you what what to me and you and I talked about this after episodes one and to the last dance that this was all telegraph. It wasn't something that they own got into the moment. And you know Jordan gets injured and and the lockout and everything and they don't know krause and Reinsdorf knew this going into that year. The whole crazy thing that they said Phil Jackson will not be back as the coach even instore after the season when offered him Iraq. They like to to basically say it's over as early as they did. That tells you what they wanted. And that's what they were GONNA do. Yeah I think that's that's pretty obvious to me and go SAM. Smith will tell you that Phil felt like he was ready to move on. There's also the issue of Jordan slicing up his hand. Yes when he's on vacation in the Bahamas that happened like two weeks before the lockout ends remember everybody else will be interesting to see day of like if there weren't a lockout. How might that have changed things? It was if you're making these decisions fifteen days after you just won the championship as opposed to nine months after you just won the championship or seven months and also remembering that the chronology of this is very difficult like mid. They would have to have very clear understanding from like Jordan. And all these other to do it because if they reassigned some of the other players early in George doesn't come back then you're completely screwed or with pippen lights teams have done it. Like moving pieces are is absolutely possible. But it's very important to have all those ducks row because the value of Rodman and her and Phil Jackson even is very different as if everyone's together or if you lose important pieces so and if Jordan is like knows that he's GonNa play and he's getting ready for the season maybe he's not in the Bahamas. He doesn't slice his Hamdi but indications were that he would have missed two months at the start of the season if they had brought him back at that time and KP did a projection of what it would have looked like for. That team in. The east was not amazing that year like Miami was the number one seed. They ended up getting beaten the first round by the Knicks. The Knicks make the finals without Patrick Ewing but they also had a crazy upset win over the pacers who had been their biggest competition the year before so the Bulls would have been certainly right in the mix. I think just with Jordan. Whoever they coulda cobbled together at that point I mean they probably could have brought back. Kerr Longley was a free agent. They made the right decision clearly. Do not re signed him because he just never did anything in I in Phoenix and then in New York and Cross correctly pointed that out that his ankles were And Rodman you know. Maybe he would have just been totally ineffective coach. Still would have been there so they still could had Jordan pippen coach. I mean that's probably enough to compete in the east. I do have a feeling that the that spurs team was really really good. I think they could have had problems with that. Spurs team at remember. The jazz actually lost to Portland in the semifinals before they even get to San Antonio but that San Antonio team was nasty way better point differential than anybody else in the league. Yeah I think the Spurs team in terms of point differential was would have been the second strongest opponent that the Bulls had faced during the Jordan era are during the during the finals during the finals. Run Yeah and I mean the Bulls did not wouldn't have had really a great match up. I wouldn't have had home court probably. Yeah so that's it. Would it would have been interesting but I mean it would have been a I think they. It's not like the Bulls. Did anything that you're like. It'd be one thing if it was the thing that people were so cognizant of at that time was the Celtics Danny Ainge. Still talks about this. Now of they just basically road bird and Mikhail and perish into the ground. Reggie Lewis pass away. We talked about that last week and then they were just bad for ten years after that. And so the Bulls. Didn't they were like the cautionary tale? We all WanNa be these guys And but it's not like pippen was going to be a free agent anyway. They couldn't get anything for him. In a trade Jordan was everybody relevant was a free agent. So it's not like you had this path of you could've traded pippen. They had talked about maybe trading him around the time of the ninety seven draft. But they're like no. We need to go win a championship again this year. We can't do that so we'll end up. We're going to e- rebuilds when you basically have a bare cupboard. Take a long time. I mean that's something that you're not getting out and some of these battle plans that we've been doing like when we talked about the Knicks. And if he's editing. Is that when when you're building and they they lost those players they head coach still but they did. It wasn't like they had these developmental players. That were that. Were going to lead the future. So they needed to get draft picks and then have those guys mature and being. That didn't even work particularly well. Thanks again to hymns for sponsoring today's program. 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That's what a cross talked a lot about that in that piece which I encourage all of you to read but across the course loyal man to the end doesn't ever mention the idea of money and that's what I go back to her Ryan sorts of say no it would have been suicidal to do that. Like suicidal. How I I talk about. That's the only way and so yeah. They would have been worse than they were no. Obviously they wouldn't have been worse than the were and they. It wasn't like they had other players that we're going to be more expensive there. Sometimes there are teams where you get ratcheted up into the stratosphere because you're young players are on the rookie scale contracts and then they get paid in your other guys that are still on the books the bulletin half guys like that from what I understand and I'm pretty sure I'm right. So they didn't have this escalation. It was just that they didn't want to continue going in is piece a few things that I thought were incorrect. Like was he said. Oh is the capitals. Were prevented from re-signing guys like Kerr and log like no. That's not true like yet Fulford rights you could recite them I mean it's it's so funny right. There's always it's as old as time immemorial the snow job on You know we can't afford it. We couldn't do it. Those sorts of things like no. You can do it it just what it costs money. It costs money. Yeah and I think that part of it was disheartening. Krause was definitely interested in the ownership in general manager pulling in the same general direction for different reasons. I would say REINSDORF. I'm guessing it was more financial and krause the excitement of building a team. I mean you whenever we do the fake thing when get asked unpatriotic of Oh what would be most interested in? We're not interested in a job where the team is already done. You want to build a new team and you WANNA YOU WANNA try to figure out how to how to do it from there and I'm sure that was a part of it for him as well and there was this perfect storm where everyone was kind of coming up at the same time and so. I'm sure that for different reasons. They were excited about the possibility that was coming. But that is doing so doing that when you just want a third consecutive championship. Have the greatest player of all time in even if you don't fully rent back. Heavy reasonable shot of winning another championship. That that's the other part of that you talked about like. Oh what are you giving it up for? The other part is what are you giving up like? This isn't giving up the ghost and maybe you're GONNA make the first round or maybe even they can get to the conference finals if they're lucky and then you get there like that is not the team that they maybe. They wouldn't have won the championship. But they were in the mix dothan across cross says that I don't find it credible and REINSDORF taught about it to the city. Oh we'll fill didn't WANNA coach rebuilding team like you had Michael Jordan. You're not a rebuilding right. Jackson didn't want to coach after Michael Jordan was God and so like crosses just saying like. Oh Phil already said that. He made the decision to leave eight months before the meeting. I still I I don't really sense was cut out a little bit too but it really strikes me as like okay Jordan and pippen coming back. I mean it seemed very yeah. I agree that that Phil Jackson didn't want to coach rebuilding team. But you had the choice of whether it was going to be rebuilding team or not so that. It's it's it's putting the causation wrong. It's Atoll Judy. Yeah it's an also though I will say this like I mean maybe. Mj Just you notice. And they didn't show Phil Speech at that nine hundred ninety eight but he says he said basically runs the unprinted comeback. And he's like this was our last dance and you know he's like very clear about that an mg was like Oh. You don't know what's going to happen to you. I could be back while I he. But whether he's just too much of a team guy says I mean he's to me he should have been like. Hey you know like you owe to me. I WANNA come back. The reason I'm not going back is because Jerry Reinsdorf doesn't WanNa pay everyone and he's being cheap and I mean he really should have just gone on the offensive to their their their enemies. That that Jordan conspicuously didn't make during his career but Reinsdorf I mean yeah he'd Reinsdorf did pay him during the baseball years but he could have I mean Jordan had the cachet the Gravitas to do that he wouldn't have been the villain here. No so I I ultimately I think I would put it more on Reinsdorf than cross and cross. If he's thinking about the long term future of the franchise I could see not wanting to give out those countries like those. All the countries they're talking about would have been bad contras eventually So I have a top four things that I wish that I thought were omitted from the documentary and should have been in chronological order here. Nineteen Ninety ninety-two game. Six against the blazers completely not mentioned that the Bulls start the fourth quarter down fifteen at home in game six. Michael Jordan is on the bench and they basically make nearly the entire comeback from fifteen dollars. Bobby Hansen hit a three stacey king. Probably like it's only good. Five minutes in a bulls. Uniform of Scott Williams was was awesome. Pippen was out there and they have this whole comeback until they're down like two or four or something by the time energy gets back in and then he helps them close it out but tonight even mentioned that I mean that's like that's like one of the greatest comebacks in a game in NBA history and to do it without driving. That's just like there are a few things because it was you know Jordan was the central figure and he obviously had. I'm sure veto power over anything that was going to be in and he was the one who had to say. Yes for this footage to get used. I'm not saying that he he was like. Don't put that in there. But it's just like you got to put that in like even if you just say two lines or someone talks about it or whatever I mean. That's like up players one of the players. That was a part of it. Or even have phil do it because he you know yeah. Connection with with bench players and support players is is always a part of a coaching job and then in the same vein Jordan the l the whole Atlantic City thing ninety three during the Knicks series. And it was like okay. He's GonNa stop talking to the pissed off now. Then the Bulls won four straight shot three for eighteen. In game. Three the Bulls went by twenty because they play unbelievable. Defense and Pippen has like one of his best games a bullet. All the role players really came through Jordan. He got the following a lot but he shot three for eighteen in this game when they're down to never even gets mentioned and then they go and then the next thing that he plays. The four point game is one of the all-time Great Playoff Games. If you go back and watch the highlights of that game I mean he's hitting just impossible shots over great defense every single time that Nixon Fours one of the greatest defense fulltime So I thought that was really like a glaring omission. Same type of again Next one that I couldn't believe wasn't in there was the Hue Hollins Clo- Oh yeah. You talked about this on twitter. Yeah I posted video of it and I asked people who were new to the play to see whether it a fall and basically you at that time. You didn't have the protection for shooters as far as like the landing zone and also the I mean there's still as far as I know the rules so the same as far as like the high five contact. 'em The ball is clearly out of Hubert. Davis is hands me. It's very grainy footage. Obviously but but you can see grains Yup Yup like the ball is clearly out of his hand before pippen makes any kind of contact with his hand and PIPPA doesn't come anywhere close to hitting his leg ranting. He's coming across many angle and Davis. Mrs. Schott Boozer up one with under five seconds left. They'RE GONNA win game five and that for Davis hit hit two clutch free throws but that was a call where people went insane. There wasn't really we never really got amazing replay of it. There's one from the baseline view where you can't see it. On the telecast huby broad thing like oh he sees why the call was made but yeah I I will say I hadn't seen it before and it didn't look like a to me. Yeah I wish I wish there were a better angle but from the ones I saw. It didn't look like Oh well and this is ninety four. Obviously when when Jordan has gone a so they they win that series. Almost certainly bulls win game six at home if they win that they ended up. Losing game seven I don't think they win the championship that year although they're really the only great team in the NBA that year was the sonics and they lose after going up to. Oh they blow the lead. They lose to the nuggets and Houston goes on. Its Houston with the only other team in the League. That it was really. I think the high fifties and winds but I think that Houston series. Pry would have favored. Houston they would've had by far the best player. Akeem was the best player in the League. I would say when Jordan was gone during those years. So and the Bulls had Wennington Luc Longley and Will Perdue Center. Which would they struggled to deal with them? A little bit. But I mean it's possible. They could have won that series. I'm not saying they would've won the championship but it would have been a bigger deal if they get to the conference finals. I think they they could have matched up pretty well with the Pacers in that conference finals. So SO I. I was shocked. That wasn't mentioned at all. And instead they decided to focus on the one point. Eight seconds and if anything. I thought they were too kind to. Scotty I mean as I think about that because I mean I remember. I watched that game and when I didn't notice because I was a thirteen year old. That Scottie Pippen wasn't in the game I saw coach. Hit the shot but number one. It absolutely was the right call to go to CUCO. Yes it was a quick really shot. Yeah he had. He was six eleven. He had beat shots. Like that before. Scotty was not great at getting a jump. Shot off off the dribble. He didn't have the quickest more versatile release he couldn't really create separation. He didn't have like a a great. Eighteen usually only take that if he was wide open and coach made a great shot. He was the guy that they should have gone to. That didn't mean he was the best player on the team. He wasn't but in that specific situation. When you needed to get a shot off. It should have got him and obviously it was right because he fucked shop and also worth noting that Pete Myers who replaced. Pippen makes an unbelievable inbounds pass to the free. Throw line to Tony. Cuco choose being like half fronted by Anthony Mason. Who was awesome defender m? The past was just amazing. Took him right into the shot the over his right shoulder so I mean pippen was a great passer also but I. The past that was thrown was perfect. So I don't know Scotty pippin would've actually thrown as good of a pass as Pete Myers did we. Would you got pippen? Not as the inbounder in that situation more of a it seems to me like that was part of what made him agreed was that they couldn't even think of it. Maybe so but here's the thing has anything in. Nba history like that ever happened other than that incident. Not that I know of not even close. I've never heard of anything. Even close wouldn't go in the game now especially in that kind of circumstance. It's not just like some throwaway regular season game or something like that. This is the playoffs while now. The one analog to that is two thousand fifteen game for Bulls cavs David. Blatt draws up the play with Lebron as the inbounder and the brain is like not fuck. It were running this. And then he then he hits a huge shot Over Jimmy Butler that like saved that series for the cavs. They were about to go down three one in that series. I think the game was actually tied at that point. I want to say but that's the only equivalent I can think of but I mean even just saying like no fucking run this for me like even that is better than just sitting out. I mean that's like so incredibly passive aggressively. You just have and they did. They did a good job talking about the teammates but is kind of amazing to me that that they were able to cross that bridge. Eventually I mean you need to get back actually like Finished the series and have pippen b-be as important a player as he was in the NBA is popular. It seems like as he is as he is among the other players that were on. That team. Jordan was on that team but Yeah I mean I guess it was so out of character for him but so so that's the second point I wanted to get to those. Like why did he do it? And the thing that I if you grew up playing basketball in the ninety s and then you saw the way that the conversation changed because of Michael Jordan. The way that Basketball Changed Kobe. Bryant his legacy Y- as kind of the the next guy trying to take up Jordan's mantle before Michael Jordan. There wasn't this feeling of okay. The last shot has to go to the best player in an isolation every time they didn't that wasn't how it used to be played out part of it was because just an isolation didn't work as well adding part of it was just. There wasn't even this idea of like okay. We're GONNA run the time down and get the last shot at the end. You're like that strategy of all but this idea of like okay. We're just going to give the ball to this guy and he's GonNa dribble out top and shoot a jumper as time expires. And that's what you run at the end every play you give the body. Your best player ends a huge affront to not do that like that didn't really happen especially part of it. I think too. Is that the best players were centers. Until you couldn't really do that we come And then when Jordan and even magic like both teams would have just run a play in that situation and and you know they might run a play to get a guy open off the ball or whatever. But there wasn't this like who's GonNa take the last shot who's GonNa take the shot and I think with Jordan's heroics in the late eighties especially I think it really came in after he hit the shot against Cleveland. And it's like Oh man he's just so clutch he makes all these crazy shots like and so then it was like art. It's it's the best players right to do this. This is what you do at the any game and so as pippen had seen them do that for Jordan for so long. There's this idea that like that's what you do your best player and this idea that him like viewing it as this personal affront. That like oh. He's earned the right to take that shot. It's like you're trying to actually win the game. It's not about but like you could be a great player and not be we're GONNA throw it into you with one second left on the clock near shoot like an impossible fade away. That's not your game so it was. It was insane that he did that end. It's just there's there's no. It's I've never heard anything like that. I don't know of any level Pascal. Frankly when you think about if happened now the firestorm that would occur and justifiably. So I mean it's there are a lot of things in this that I've I've had the you know the more modern perspective on of what if this happened now I mean you could even in this one? I mean there was previously Dennis Rodman Vegas thing in this when there was the Rodman going skipping practice to in WCW but pippen not being on the court refusing to come in. The game is one of a that unlike the Phil Jackson saying he's not going to be back after this year. Like those are the types of things that just don't happen anymore and didn't a lot of times didn't happen before. Yeah you know I I. I'm of two minds about this whole. Oh what if this happened? Today would be an even bigger firestorm thing. I I do think that there's in some ways now because of the media environment and because everyone just has so much better idea of what everyone else is doing that. There's more of an understanding of just how fucking bat shit crazy that was and the same thing with like the way. That krause was hired in Nineteen eighty-five. Hey you want me to be the GM for the Bulls Scout for the white sox at like. If that were the process back then people would have been like what you know. What the hell there have been all this reporting live professional the professionalization of organizations I mean. That's that's something that comes up in the An- not not to denigrate what they did like Red Auerbach running a so much competent organization than everyone else in how that field the Celtics success for a long time. And I mean plenty of teams could still use some more professionalization. That's for damn sure of. Oh I forgot to mention this to on the Hue hollins thing. I had this in my notes to shut mentioned it Darell Garretson was wrapping that game and he was a partner of Hue Hollins and he says as he actually retired from being a referee after that and became like this horrendous official and he actually said in the media at the start of the next season that the quote was his quote was all I can say is. It was terrible call. I appreciate the honesty there but man. I mean that's like it was definitely a bad call and the point was made to me while the Bulls like benefited from so many calls and I was like what like what call did they benefit from. That was that if the I mean maybe the Jordan no call on Russell. I'm more along. The lines of Russell never could have stopped his momentum anyway. Yeah it's about play my my stances that you need to create the general standard in those circumstances should be you create an advantage that would not have been created otherwise and I think the advantage would have been created. So it's it's best to be no call and he was going that direction anyway. I so th that game six was one of the few games pre two thousand three that I did. I do remember watching live and I remember the play that the play that got me on that because I didn't know best over will time was the steel Jordan Malone and being like Oh wait that was a a great read and a great vision. That is what gave them kind of the opportunity to make that all happen was to to have enough time and I mean Phil going timeout but getting a steel as opposed to the jazz even getting a shot up when they had the lead so the end screen I also thought was extremely misleading. It says Phil Jackson was replaced. Okay I can buy that. They had this weird thing. Where they're like Tim. Floyd as the coach in waiting but Phil Jackson could still be the coach to be wants to and they didn't want to. Michael Jordan. Went back into retirement. Okay that's true Scottie. Pippen was traded like no. That's totally misleading. He was technically traded but he was signed and traded. You would say like he left as a free agent would be the way that I would phrase that yeah and the. They actually helped him out so he could get more money in the scientists. They didn't get anyone back. Got Some bullshit second round. Pick and like Roy Rogers or something in that trade Also said Dennis Rodman was released also inaccurate. He just his contract expires on track. And then Steve. Kerr was traded again. He was scientists to San Antonio so That was pretty misleading. I mean maybe the guy who went on their looked at basketball reference and saw that or whatever but that seemed incorrect Can I give you some interesting nuggets from the box score? Game Six of the ninety eight finals absolutely so I had it in my head that the pace was seventy two possessions By basketball references calculations. It was actually seventy six. Whoa now hey big spender but that So that's probably about about right and so the up into regions are actually one fourteen and one thirteen in that game Jazz had thirty seven percent offensive. Rebounds Scottie. Pippen plays twenty six minutes on his totally messed up. Back Plus Sixteen four seven from the field eight points only other bull in double figures. Besides Jordan was coach with fifteen points in forty two minutes Scott Burrell over one negative seventeen in ten minutes out presume. Those are mostly minutes. That Jordan didn't play though Jordan Played Morrison that can Yeah I mean Jordan. Played forty three minutes but And then Jordan forty four minutes three of seven from three fifteen of thirty five from the field. Twelve fifteen line forty five point one assists and four steals and Carl Malone actually had a wonderful game in that game thirty one points eleven rebounds and he did it a on only twenty four true shot attempts but any seven says he was awesome in that game but he had the five turnovers including that huge one at the end. Stockton pretty tough game only thirty three minutes. He generally didn't play that many minutes even at that point Like the rotation was usually he would go out and energy was in foul trouble but to had four files but he would go out with six minutes to go in the first and third quarters and Howard is come in for the rest of the time so yeah it was Stockton generally his PLOP. Numbers ARE PRETTY UGLY. Compared to regular season like he was not a great platform only at five assists looking to so it was Pretty Awesome game though. I have something big picture I wanted to ask you. Yeah as a fan. Because you were you were your age and the right mindset to be there how do you how did you feel then? And now. About the unusual circumstances of Jordan missing so many years of was primer prime adjacent for personal choice. I'm not criticizing him for doing it. But that is distinctly unusual. This isn't Barry Sanders retiring or anything like that. Like he took time off and came back like. Do you feel like you know. Especially considering some people use the best career argument as opposed to who was the best individual player. Do you feel like that's the day that you miss that or is it just kind of part of the story? How do you feel about now? And how did you feel that will now appoint was made me? I sat on like a podcast talking about Jordan versus Lebron that Lebron takes a lot of regular seasons often. I was like in Jordan do that. But he literally did take a season to the half off In the middle of his prime to kind of recharge so that that does need to be considered. I mean I didn't I wasn't like mad at him for retiring. I was sad I totally understood with like his dad. The whole like gambling thing. That didn't really reach my consciousness at that point of. I mean I still was a big bulls fan. The next year I watched a bunch of games and watch all the playoff games and but it was so awesome when he was coming back but he was really. I mean I think maybe just because I was a fan strauss talks about this like the Creeping determine ism of like oh it seemed like there are always preordained to win and like when they lost the magic in ninety five after he comes back in like number one Jordan like doesn't look like the best player anymore like you got outplayed by Penny Hardaway. It looked like the magic. Were going to be on top like they were going to cause that had been the way that was too. I remember I. It was the Celtics and then Detroit. It was Detroit's turn. And then it was the bulls after that and then it was like. Oh well it's Orlando's turn now and Orlando was younger. The Bulls were old. They had this huge hole at power forward. So I was like is this like I mean. I guess I'm just GONNA come back. Oh He's GonNa be the same guys three two a year. I didn't have quite as good understanding of like the way basketball players at that point but it clearly was already not in his prime anymore. So I I definitely was like men. There's no one knew that they're going to win seventy games next year and they didn't get Rodman until like right before they had nothing again at power forward that you're like they weren't able to get anyone in the offseason grant. Leaving was a huge blow. Grant killed them in that series of but I did it. Did I answer your question? I think so I think so. Yeah it's it's so it's weird for me because it was fucking awesome when he came back. Yeah but I was just like. Oh my God is he's like is he still going to be? Michael Jordan like they're really. That was not contrived to the Philip Dot was real. I really I. And then he goes seven for twenty eight in his first game and you're much more prone to the narratives at that point. I was like like when Johnny Kerr they showed the the film of in making that shot against Atlanta right before the fifty five point game and Johnny Kerr's like he is now back because he made like this one game winning shot at the end and so I was like hey chat now. He's back because you so much of the narrative at that point was wrapped up in like. Okay it's your mental fortitude. This guy always come through. This guy never comes through. You know I didn't have like as much of an understanding of just the vagaries and the randomness of it. All I do now so I was like. Oh He's back then. He had the fifty five point game. Then has forty eight in the first round against Charlotte. I thought he was like pretty close to back but then they lost a against Orlando anything else. That stuck out to you at all or like things that you didn't know that you're like we were surprised by I. Hadn't I hadn't known before this came up when we talked about one in two. How kind of explicit. A lot of the being over was that the players do and like doing the fill the thing that they talked about the end of it Phil Jackson basically treating it and then put the they all wrote things and spoke and then threw it in through coffee cannon litter on fire like the. The formality like there was there. There was a analogies. Naturally that will be made to the eighteen nineteen word or season. I don't think there was anything public or private as for any of that kind of stuff. Part of that was because a lot of the players were under contract and it was really just Katie leaving and we couldn't have seen what happened in the nineteen twenty season coming but it for a team that wins the championship as the as such a dominant force to just be like. Oh Yeah it's going to be over after this is that still boggles my mind or I will say when I After we recorded after game six last year I was thinking of this With the warriors the to me. They're the closest thing to these bowls with all the south power that they had in the drama and all that It was a shorter time period of course but for it to end with Katie Tearing his Achilles One game and Klay Thompson tearing his ACL the next game and like Strauss than slater like that night at like four am after we all done all all of our work after that game Game Six last year. They came over and we're all just like hang out in like reminiscent because we knew it was. GonNa be over And everything could be totally different did. Didn't realize how different at that time but At least in a basketball sense and so I was struck. That by at least like the. That team had that moment that they talked about. With where like Jordan wrote the poem and like the Phil Jackson got them all in a room and they did that ritual which I thought that was like a a really cool touching thing and you know that that warriors team didn't have that level of togetherness and Katie one foot out the door and stuff but I do feel Kinda sad that that team never had that moment especially because Katie was even there yet when they lost like he had just gotten a surgery in in New York like they like he leaves and goes to New York from one from when he gets hurt in Toronto. He never set foot in the bay area again if he has to. This point probably has this point but like I would imagine he came back at some point till IPO clean out his apartment and shit. But like I don't maybe it's someone do that form but yeah I mean that was just like never even have a moment together to say like. Hey guys it's been real at the end that thoughts Catharsis Demo. What how whatever you WANNA call it in the specific context yeah. I think that that is something special about this team that they did know it and it was useful for those players to sell. Tell Kerr visit. Krause's thing tell long that just get the most money you can like. Were not bringing it back but they could have. I mean they could. They could have done it. Differently obviously A big picture thing for me is. I'm extremely happy. This exists and I am thankful that it that. Espn changed the time line. And a came out during this period where not only to give structure but to give us something to look forward to in a shared experience when shared experiences that are positive or few and far between it's more shared separate experience right now. I'm extremely thankful for that. I am and added. New Footage added new not only to my experience but I think to everybody else's and it will be challenging. It's just going to be an interesting part of his legacy to see what parts of this are seen as Canon. Moving forward and what parts of it are just this one person's interpretation. It's true based on your point of view as my pratice said in his mill in his newsletter thing after the after the early part of this and so overall huge positive but that element of because it run through somebody who had their own perspective and had a had a reason to want certain things in in certain things out in that that was functionally mandatory from this narrative experience that it is fundamentally different and so I think that some will try to say. That's a good thing or a bad thing you think of that. I don't think there's a need to make it offender pronouncement. It just is what it is and I will appreciate it for that. I thought it was good. You mentioned that changes but in Scotty pippin. His interview didn't happen after things started getting released. And like there's a little bit of backlash over like getting should on so like him. Say Yeah like he was like the greatest chip also. They're like people note that like Scotty hasn't necessarily said that Jordan is the Said maybe it's he scotty did say I was playing with the best player. We had the best coach. The best Maybe just the best player at the time as opposed to the best player ever but When you said like a what are the things that'll be candid like what sticks out to you when you're talking about. I don't know if people will see this as definitively that it's the food poisoning game not the flu game. Or something else poisonings to me. Sobel's yeah the Pizza Pizza Pizza Game. Pta I it's GONNA BE STOMACH FLU. I don't know yeah that's like. What if it was in fact that like they did something to that pizza? What do you think they did like? If you're working in that pizza pizza joint and you know that Michael Jordan is about to get this pizza like what do you do to be like? Oh yeah this is that you have you have on hand like you just like like pick it. They just have some like expired cheese or something they built it. It'd be like today like spit out. I mean like even. That wouldn't be enough to just give you a flu like that. I mean they had been something that just had like a shitload of bacteria already like Salmonella like they just took some like raw chicken and just like rubbed all for the pizza like I. Would you go about doing that? This is the next documentary we need at. We can't get the name of the pizza place. Come on somebody knows someone should look that up. Someone should look like what pizza place would have had to have. Been at like guessing. There weren't a lot of places to get late night. Food Salt Lake City in one thousand nine hundred seven. I think like one of the things that I was struck by remembering it again. It was obvious that the time though was just like how messed up Scottie. Pippen's back clearly. One could see it when he moved down the floor but he like there's one sequence where he he didn't even it wasn't even on the floor like bends down to pick up a ball at like two inches and you could tell he's just like grimacing. My wife is a yoga teacher and so she's always concentrated like people's wound. She's like yeah with like your lower body is moving but when you're running your upper body just can't move at all like you know someone's back is like really bad And like Jordan. I don't recall. I mean there's been some times where there's a game where like Nate Robinson threw up on the bench for example in like the two thousand thirteen playoffs. But I don't recall seeing anyone look as one on the court as Jordan did during the flu game. I mean it was just so obvious looking at his face like how exhausted he was an. It's just that sort of thing it's like. Oh was he sicker than some other guy in some other performance or whatever but I mean who put it this way. I don't think he was faking it. No that seem pretty clear yet and I think there there were parts of that you know I would have appreciated. It was weird to me that not that. I'm criticizing the I thought I thought I loved having the Kerr focus as a part of the story in them. Setting up the shot in ninety seven but it did seem like a lot of the support players that it was more in the context of Jordan know like coach. When he was talking about it was more like the Dream Team and this is Koukoulas related Jordan as opposed to coach being a damn good player in his own. Right Rodman Pippen and Phil. We're probably the only people to get something and courage outside of that context. But you know I think that if you were telling the story of the Jordan Bulls. I thought that there could. There could have been more on that sort of thing. And as you brought like the you know the Hue Hollins call and other things that that if it didn't really heavily involve Jordan as much a part of this it wasn't the Jordan Bulls. It was Jordan and his team. I'd forgotten I forgot about the Rodman missing practice to do the wrestling thing as well. I mean that's another during the final politely. A enter now like a lot of practices during the files or kind of bullshit of but Phil. I'd be like yeah. He's out here. We all know where he is And then I was surprised. They didn't mention the Arizona. State thing with Kerr after but the I think that probably would have just required too much exposition for what was kind of ancillary story in the documentary. But for those who don't know like Kerr played fare zone at like at when they're playing at ARIZONA STATELY DIV bans. Were basically like making fun of him for having his debt. Dad got shot and I can't remember their chain link around. Plo Oh God. That's accurate if you're GONNA be at -sulting at least be accurate Yes now that's pretty crazy but I think guess I understand why that was left out because with the way they would have had to do it. From a storytelling. Standpoint was just to like tell that story. And like that's your only data. Point of Steve Kerr between his dad. Dying and Michael Jordan. So as I is that. And it's like you. You can't tell that without the saying what's the aftermath. He becomes this all American Arizona. It would have required probably like another five minutes if they were going to bring that part up. Yeah and it's something else that I really enjoyed about the documentary and I wonder Michael Lee brought this terms. David Aldridge which I firmly support of the so many people involved in this weather. It's media members or players there to really good storytellers. And they did a great job. Editing to of cutting it down to things that were interesting I would just you know. That's kind of what my vision of open court always could have been. It's just guys telling stories about what they remember and and you could spice in footage and all that but there's just there's this wealth of information the NBA. This is something that came up when we talked about. We were when we were talking about. Kobe is the. Nba is so fortunate that a large portion of their great players are not only still with us but are also talented storytellers and aware of this. That are still connected with game that I would love to just see parts of this machinery. Go in other directions and media members talk about the most memorable games they covered or players like under the radar moments and then you could intimate or whatever. You spicing footage. Whatever like there's so much wealth of of material here that I would love to see whether it's you know giving context to people who weren't alive for that Jen and watch in that generation like that's part of the motivation of the last dance or something else just like to have it so that years from now we just have that to fall back on. I think it'd be great ever be a team that is like that big of a deal again or has anyone come close in your mind. The warriors were something entirely different because they never had the same kind of arc. You know like the Bulls they had the struggles with the Pistons. And then and the the Jordan they they also different between the three petes the warriors did a Lotta that stuff in a very short period of time but there was a time when the lights burned incredibly bright on them. And but you can correct me. If I'm wrong. Like the were like the Bulls were as great as they were the. It didn't seem like the they were reviled in the same way that a lot of that is because they're you know they drafted their best players and some of that type of stuff so yeah. I think it would take a lot to get till he to get there. I think that the warriors during the twenty four game winning streak to start fifteen sixteen. Yeah so the Pre Katie Warriors. That's that's a fair com. Yeah I think they got close like I. If I don't think steph would have ever been Michael Jordan. But if he had had you done what he did in two thousand sixteen and they had one in two thousand sixteen and Katie doesn't come if he does that for like two or three or four more years like maybe and they're winning championships during that period. Maybe it would have gotten close for him personally. But in terms of the media I like that team for sure during the twenty four game winning streak the seventy three winning going seventy three nine and they had plenty of drama to and they and that was also a totally homegrown team again. I think there's a big like Talks about this. And you're in you as well that this the idea of everyone being homegrown and coming up together and just letting people talk themselves out of this being a mercenary type of feel the way it did when. Katie got there or Lebron heat which was also a huge deal. But people didn't like didn't have that love for them. The way they did for the Bulls. Yeah it's I think that a lot of it is popular perception of popular perception matters in comparing teams to the Bulls popular perceptions of the story and was done in the last dance well in addition and also just the fact that by ninety eight that everyone knew it was probably going to be over two. Yeah that this was going to be the Swan Song in that tells what want to ask you. How do you think some of these story? Let's say the Bulls bring the band back together? They make the NBA Finals. And they lose to the Spurs and then it all breaks apart however that happens. Do you think that the six no is significantly more impressive than the six one to the average person I know you and I can sometimes see things differently than average for Split? How do you how do you Kinda Square that circle? Yeah I think it is more process to six. No because just the the leg talked about with the creeping determinism the same thing of just this aura of invincibility. Yeah right I mean even the two years that MJ Miss Neo course. Nineteen ninety-five Doesn't count. Because you know he had different muscles or whatever from baseball on onshore. There's part of that wasn't in shape and they're different. They're different shapes to. Yeah and the team. Also I mean. They're bigger flaw. Wasn't that Jordan played poorly. It's that they got completely destroyed the interior that whole series. Yeah they have a power forward on the team So no I think actually they I mean it might make their story more interesting. It also depended how that went down right if they lose in seven in just an absolute dog fight to the Spurs as opposed to just getting swept like five. Yeah it where the Spurs clearly better and they ran out of gas and that was it as opposed to man. This is you know. One of history's legendary. Last stands type of thing. I also think that people would have. Let's say the Spurs win that series? I think the Spurs would have a lot more respect to. I mean not that they're short it but I'd be like to actually vanquish to vanquish the Bulls to be the only team to do it. In Costa full-strength fashion would be that would and that would have been an early early. Feather in the cap you think about the legacy of Popovich if that had been the start as opposed to the way it would actually began. Yup I wonder if Phil Jackson would have said that. The season had an asterisk that all I think we can. We can wrap it up your those questions I think. Yeah it's definitely the fact that it's six and that's like when I mean all you have to do is compare it to Lebron or. He's making the finals every year. But losing I into the fact that that's the biggest thing that to the casual fan. That Jordan has over Lebron and said he was six in the finals. Unifil. Ron made more finals. The fact that he lost a bunch from even though the Bulls never played a team like the warriors team that he lost three of three of those files to or actually. It's good as the Spurs team that he lost to in twenty fourteen either or two thousand seven I would say I don't know maybe I'm giving short shrift like the Sonics and jazz team the end but The vet those scenes one sixty four games was in part because the week was pretty leak week at that time to Anyway all right I've reveling. Let's wrap this up For have a new piece at the athletic about the Knicks Q. and A. That's coming out on Monday. Should have a new real. Gm Radio on Monday afternoon evening. Seeing look forward to that and a lot more coming out in the near term but it still working on it so. I'll tell you about it when it happens. I'd fun show at Hollinger today. We debated all of our disagreements on NBA awards. That was really fun to do. Because I mean he is He does a lot more about basketball then or he's forgotten more about basketball than I know so it was it was it was fun sparring with them About some of that stuff for sure in a respectful way. I I assume you're still GONNA do the podcast with me next week. We'll see Adequacy Cova Daily News is rolling on. I opie guys will give that at least a shot. Just give me the first fifteen minutes or even if you don't we we've been together a while here and if you haven't tried it yet please at least give it that kind of a shot and see if you think it's useful for you. I hope that it will be if you're a really just suffering from news fatigue can actually. It should help you supposed to just hopefully not feel like I got one more thing I gotta listen to. Its can hopefully replacing the other ways. You're getting your news I we will taught y'all next time till then.