Amanpour: Bob Gates, James & Suzy Cameron and Phoebe Robinson

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Support for NPR comes from our friends at rocket mortgage by Quicken Loans who were excited to introduce their all new rate shield approval. If you're in the market to buy a home rate, shield approval is a real game changer. And here's why first Quicken Loans will lock your rate for up to ninety days while you shop. But here's the crucial part. If rates go up your rate stays the same. But if rates go down your rate also drops either way you win. It's the kind of thinking you'd expect from America's largest mortgage lender to get started. Go to rocketmortgage dot com slash Amanpour. Take one last ride around the world, the EMMY award winning Anthony, bourdain parts, unknown the final episodes cares Sundays at nine on CNN. Hello, everyone and welcome to Amman for his what's coming up. Within hours of Saudi Arabia admitting Jamal Shoghi was killed in its concert that cover story falls apart. What does this crisis mean for the kingdom? And for American national security, I speak with Robert Gates who served a CIA director and secretary of defense under three presidents. Also a Hollywood power, couple fights. Climate change one meal time, James and Suzy. Cameron say that if we want to save up planet, I, we must change our diet and comedian Phoebe Robinson confronts toxic masculinity and white feminism in her new book. Everything's trash, but it's okay. Welcome to the program. Everyone. I'm Christiane Amanpour in London. Saudi Arabia has admitted that the killing of the journalist, Jamal kashogi was a huge and grave mistake, but the kingdom's account of his death claiming that he died in a fistfight during a quote, rogue operation in that consulate in Turkey has done little to blunt the international uproar and skepticism new details of Kashoggi's death highlight inconsistencies in the Saudi story. Like this still image from security footage, it shows a Saudi operative trying to pass kashogi apparently wearing Kashoggi's clothes. He was leaving the concert by the back door, the very day the kashogi was killed. Meanwhile Turkey's president, Richard type erred. One is promising to reveal the incident in all its naked truth. So what should the world do? What should the west do the German Chancellor? Angela Merkel announced that her government wouldn't approve new arm sales to the kingdom until further. Otis and a former British Foreign Secretary says the US and the UK must stop supporting the Saudi war in Yemen. Or while President Trump wavers between accepting the king of Saudi Arabia's, latest explanation to saying that it wasn't sufficient. So when and if the dust settles in both Riyadh on Washington, what will this mean for Saudi Arabia's place in the region and for America's national security ties, Robert Gates was director under the George H W Bush administration, and he was secretary of defense under President, George W Bush and President Barack Obama and Robert Gates welcome to the program. Thank you, Chris. So I mean, I could have gone on on you have a massive portfolio and massive experience in intelligence in as being secretary of defense and all other roles. So what do you make of Saudi Arabia's explanation in public for what happened to Jamaica? Shoji. Well, I find the story that they've told. To not be credible. Just looking at the photographs of Mr. cujo kashogi he doesn't appear to be the kind of person who would engage in a fistfight much less with fifteen people. So I don't. I don't think anyone finds the story, credible. I think that holds true of the president himself, but but I think the challenge that we face and maybe I'm getting ahead of ourselves here. But I think the challenge is how do we thread the needle in terms of protecting our interests in the Middle East and at the same time standing up for the values that we have as a country. And and I think that the administration could do worse than to go back and study carefully what the first President Bush did after the massacre at tenement square in Beijing. In one thousand nine hundred eighty nine. He was the first head of state to impose sanctions on the Chinese government to show that how much we disapproved of what they had done. But at the same time, said MSA. Aries to the government, then deputy secretary of state, Larry, eagleberger, and national scary visor Brent Scowcroft to talk to the leadership in Beijing. Tell them why we were doing what we were doing, why we had to do what we were doing, but that we wanted to keep the strategic relationship still on track. But is that really threading the needle? Or is that trying to have your cake and eat it too? In other words, how much punishment or opprobrium will sanction did Beijing gets just words? No, there were there were actual sanctions that were, but I mean, it wasn't just disapproval or a pissed it was. It was actual sanctions that were imposed. So that was a massive game changing massacre then gentlemen square and the offer facts have lasted practically until this day in one form or another. And of course, China was an opponent or an adversary, oh, competitor, even more so than than it is today, Saudi Arabia is meant to be an ally, the first and is. I suppose is you know Jamal kashogi was a journalist, he wasn't a operative mounting demonstrations or weapons, or anything against the Saudi government. He was employed as a columnist by an American newspaper. He was a resident, thanks to the immigration service of the United States. He was able to live in the United States. There's a lot time Jamaica Shoji to the United States. So what should President Trump do in terms of defending that human rights case that habeas corpus case that sort of moral case right there before we get to the strategic interests? Well, my view is that that there does need to be some action taken would the well, I'm not sure the menu as long you. You mentioned the Germans were cutting off arm sales. The president's already said, he's not going to do that. The former British Foreign Secretary saying that they would. They would take other action they were. They. Stop stop by backing the war in Yemen. Maybe that's one option for us. There may be some others, but I think I think we need to find a way to manifest our disapproval of what was in my view, a huge blunder. I think it's a blunder or you think it's an orchestrated hit? Oh, it was an orchestrated hit, but ordering it was a blunder on it and and and and and at the same time, preserve the long-term relationship that we have with Saudi Arabia. Can I just play for you? Some of the natives that's come from President Trump and also from the Saudi foreign minister. So President Trump is you and you to, obviously there's be deception and as been lies, their stories are all over the place. But he said prince, Mohammad bin Salman, the crown prince is a strong person, and he's got very good control. Okay. First and foremost, a strong person and very good control. Do you believe that? Well, I think he is. I think he clearly is in control in Saudi Arabia. The various actions that he's taken from the very beginning demonstrate that he's quickly consolidated his power, and then the foreign Minister Adel Jubeir who was a former. Ambassador to the United States was on Fox News, and this is what he said. He's the only major Saudi official who's come out in the seventeen eighteen days since this crisis has been gone, and he's spoke specifically about the strategic relationship. We use Saudi relationship historically strategic plan. We have great interests that we share together. We have a great trade relationship. We have security issues that are important to both of us. We were career closely on combating terrorism and extremism on containing Iran's aggressive policies in the region. I'm trying to bring peace to the Red Sea and the horn of Africa, trying to bring peace to Afghantistan. Pakistan relationship is a hugely important strategic relationship for both countries believe that when the investigation's over and the facts are revealed, that people know who was responsible and see those individuals being punished and see procedures put in place to prevent this from happening that the relationship will, whether this. The relationship will whether this do you believe that's true. I think that I think that. I think this will have lasting impact not only here in Europe or in Europe, but in the United States as well. You, you've got a pretty strong bipartisan consensus on the hill in the congress that some strong actions need to be taken to demonstrate our approval from very conservative Republicans to very Liberal Democrats. So I think that one of the things that has to be a consideration for the president is how can he keep control of this process without the congress running away with and probably taking steps that are actually not in our national interest that go too far. Only the president can can try and and determine what are the kinds of actions that man that show our disapproval and what a terrible thing we think this is that's happened to a human being as well as to a journalist than someone who's a resident of the United States. But at the same time, recognize all of those interests that the Saudi for. Minister was talking about. So the interest also have manifest, obviously the oil selling to the west of the United States to sharing intelligence that by all accounts has been fairly, you would know more than I do. How good was there sharing of intelligence? How effective, how much mayhem and death did it actually stopped? I think I think particularly subsequent to nine, eleven. The intelligence sharing has actually been quite good, which it would have had to get fifteen hygiene, particularly in particularly after the attempted attacks on oil facilities in Saudi Arabia. Really for the first time, they began to take the terrorism problems here and that was two thousand four around. That's when it really sort of shifted up again. So some have complained that President Trump seems to be at has been sort of verbally anyway, kind of acting like the Saudi Arabians lawyer over this. You know, much more trying to figure out a a good story for them somehow to as you say, thread. Need a little come out of this relationship without it being ruined, but acting much more indepth to them than indifference to America's leadership role in this case. So Jared, Kushner's name comes up a lot, and he actually spoke at a CNN forum today. I just I wanted to play this because it's it has a lot to do with the way this administration is actually dealing with this. We have to be able to work with our allies and Saudi Arabia's been a very strong ally in terms of pushing back against Iran's aggression, which is funding a lot of terror in the region, whether it's who these in Yemen or it's, it's Hezbollah or moss. We have a lot of terrorism and in the region, the Middle East is a rough place. It's been a rough place for a very long time and we have to be able to pursue or strategic objectives, but we also have to deal with obviously, what seems to be a terrible situation. Do you agree with that? Particularly the focus on Iran, clearly Ron has all sorts of activties anathema to the United States too many in western Europe. Is there a cost benefit analysis or any kind of way to compare, whether it's whether it's, you know what? Jared Kushner is correct that we have to almost give or look aside to just about anything Saudi Arabia does because the threat from your on is so massive and that we can only do it by allowing the Saudis free rein. Whether it's in Yemen, whether it's a constant in in Tokyo, wherever I think you always have to be valuating your interests and and who's who's playing what role. I think as as low Cem as as this killing me is. It does not pose a threat to American interests in the way that Iran s- throughout the region. So us with Kushner, I won't go that far. But I will say we have very real interest that we need to protect. And as I go back to my earlier comments, how do you, how do you show that this is unacceptable behavior that there are consequences that are real, and yet at the same time, preserve our relationship in terms of dealing not just with the Iran threat, but frankly, instability throughout the Middle East. I mean, we have there are multiple conflicts going on in the Middle East right now from Syria to Yemen. The problems with Iran, it's not just the Saudi Iranian relationship where our relationship with Iran, there's a lot of instability in the region, and we have had a good relationship with the Saudis in trying to work at these problems and and there's been a mutual interest in this. I think I think you just can't throw that out the window, but I come back to the point. You still have to do things that make it clear. This kind of behavior is unacceptable. And I guess the really sensitive question is how much faith do you have in the crown prince as a credible leader going forward? As you said, he's obviously go control, but control can have positive and negative meanings. As we've seen, nobody believes that this hit as you've acknowledged was would have ever happened without the highest levels of approval inside Eurabia. So there's that question. Does. Tailed with. So what do you do to make them understand that this is not acceptable? Well, first of all, I think they're, I think they're beginning to appreciate that this. Has had an impact far beyond what they intended and. I mean, I think that I think that the crown prince has has suffered damage in this. It's hard for me to imagine him being welcome in the in the government offices in here in Europe. I think it would be very difficult and awkward for him even in the United States at this point. So so I think this is a question that the Saudis have to consider what's in their long-term interests and that's an internal matter for them. You know, it's really interesting because obviously, when President Putin was accused, again, no nerve agent like Novi could have been used here on foreign soil in Britain without the highest levels of authority. And now they've traced back British intelligence have found who those people were on their high level. At least one of the McConnell. The decorated Colonel in the GRU and there was a massive banding together. Britain had its allies together. The United States, everybody, Australia expelled, Russian diplomats, and added other sanctions and other kinds of things. None of this is being floated in this regard. And it's interesting because, again, this British Foreign Secretary who I, who I mentioned Jack. Stroll said that for forty years, the west thought the Shah of Iran was, you know, the bull walk and nobody ever said, boo, to imprison successes. And then one day, you know, he was allowed to do so much that there was a revolution. Nobody suggesting there's going to be revolution, Saudi Arabia, but don't you think good friends and allies actually do need to stand up and rain in whether the Shahr Iran or crown prince Mohammad bin somewhere, whoever it may be. Well, the essence of a friendship is a willingness to tell others what they don't want to hear. And to be brutally honest about the impact of what's happened. So I mean, part of my message I talking to the Saudi government would be. Do you realize the magnitude of the damage that's been done to Saudi Arabia by this act? Both in the United States, but also in developed countries and democracy's all around the world and you all need to face the fact that this is not going away the to quote the foreign minister, the relationship. I think we'll probably whether it but it will be different. And the attitudes in congress will be different. And the debates over sales of arms to Saudi Arabia will be different. And people have to realize individual members of congress and of the property committee's can can delay arm sales and things like that. So I think I think there are consequences to this relationship that have already happened, and there may be more to follow. Just a technical question before I move onto the IMF treaty, which of throwing up into the today. President Trump says, it's one hundred, ten billion dollars worth of sales and jobs for American people. And. That if it wasn't the American selling decided Arabia, they'd go to China and Russia, but is that really true? Don't they really have their military compatibility with the United States a little bit with Germany and the UK, but really with the United States? I mean, they suddenly digital. They use systems and go take Russian and Chinese ones can they? Actually they can. Oh, okay. In in two thousand eleven on my final visit to Saudi Arabia. I met with king of Dula and we seal the deal to sell them eighty five billion dollars worth of fifteen's. But he told me in that meeting that a number of his most senior advisors and members of the Royal family were urging him to buy those weapons, those planes from France or Russia instead, but would it have would they might have been urging them to? They might have bought the sure it would be okay, whatever. It'd be expensive, but sure. I mean, just like Turkey is buying an air. Defense system. They always bought their weapons in the west, but now they're buying an air defense system from Russia. So how do you assess Turkey's role in this crisis? They've been leaking like a sieve. They've tried to get the story out by huckabee'll. I think there's no love lost between, but what do you think to do on strategic Amy? I think I think they're trying to make things first of all, beginning with the fact Saudi Arabia made a huge mistake and they made it on Turkish soil. Air to one's going to try and make it as painful for them as possible. You see rupture of relations or no, no, I don't think threat the is well, probably more creating problems now the IMF treaty, intermediate nuclear forces right President Trump wants to pull out of that. It's being negotiated with Russia. I think under the Reagan administration with president Gorbachev who today called President Trump irresponsible and said that this was an unnecessary move. Let us play what President Trump says about this. Russia has violated the green. They've been violating it for many years, and I don't know why President Obama didn't negotiate or pull out. We're the ones that have stayed in the agreement and we've honored the agreement, but Russia has not, unfortunately under the agreement. So we're going to terminate the agreement. We're going to pull out. Have they been cheating and how disruptive is to pull out, or is that something that you would agree with? So Christiane when I first met. Defense Minister Sergei even off the Russian Defence Minister in February of two thousand and seven in our private meeting, he said Russia wanted to end the I n f agreement. He said, we're the only two nations in the world that can't build these missiles. Now, these medium range missiles. He said, we have no intention of deploying them in the west, but we want to deploy them to the south against Iran and Pakistan. And in the east against China, I said, no way United States will will not leave the IMF treaty. So the Russians have been wanting to get out of this thing for a long time and and they just as they walked away from unilaterally from the conventional forces in Europe agreement. If they have cheated as the administration says, and I have no reason to question. It's a, it's a black and white kind of thing either they've cheated or they haven't. And I suspect they have, then it seems to me that the US has every right to say, okay, if you're not going to abide by it, then why should we remain constrained by? So under those circumstances? I don't. I don't see an issue. We've, you know, both sides have pulled out of various agreements. We pulled out unilaterally pulled out of the anti ballistic missile treaty or early in the second Bush administration and so on. So I think I think if they have cheated. And have no intention of carrying out their responsibilities. I don't see why we should stay in it. So off to this conversation, admittedly, only a couple of issues are you confident that America's place in the world? It's foreign policy. It's ju- strategic leadership role is in safe hands and farm policies in the direction you'd like to see it. One of the biggest concerns that I have Christiane is, is I, I worry about. The lack of appreciation in Washington right now of the one unique advantage. The United States has in the world compared to both Russia and China, and that is our alliances. This has been a Chris source of great strength for the United States for many decades now, and if we want to accomplish anything in the world, but especially if we want to protect our interests, nurturing those alliances and and we, we will have our differences. I've no one was more critical of the Europeans for not spending enough on defense than I was, but we need to make sure everybody understands that those alliances are important to the United States, including our allies important note to end on sick day gates. Thank you very much, indeed for joining. Thank you. Support for NPR comes from our friends at rocket mortgage by Quicken Loans. Let's talk about buying a home for a minute because of rising interest rates. There's a lot of unpredictability when it comes to buying a home these days, it's causing a lot of anxiety with folks. 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Slash Amanpour ZipRecruiter the smartest way to hire. Hey, and I've got to buy us Harrison the clippers on Bleacher reports, the old forty, eight guys by seventy percent vegan base or plan base in every now. And then I give myself the freedom that if I wanna go eat fish, which I do like I keep it open for myself. The full forty eight is now available on Spotify. And of course you can always listen subscribe all the Bleacher report app, apple podcasts, or where ever you listen to podcasts. Moving now to the issue of climate change and many in US administration have kitty seen the dangers of climate change in the threat that it poses often to national security. In fact, a dia report from the United Nations says, global warming is transforming the world economy at an unprecedented scale. Now, the Hollywood director, James Cameron and his wife, the actress and author Suzy Cameron on a mission to restore balance to our climate. One meal at a time Cameron of course, is the creative force behind conic films like Titanic and atop together. The couple of is promoting a simple message as commercial livestock pump greenhouse emissions into the atmosphere at an alarming rate. We can all make a major difference to the environment just by watching what's on our plate. I spoke with the Cameron's about Suzy's new book. It's called, oh, MD one meal a day. The simple plant based program to save your health. Save your waistline and yes, save the planet. They told me how small personal choices can have a big global impact. Suzy and James Cameron, welcome to the program. Thank you for having us on. Thank you. It's really an honor. Look, it's to talk about something quite important if you take the latest UN climate and environmental report, read a couple of stats. We only have until twenty thirty to essentially save the planet. I mean, that was to me a very striking very alarming way to put it. The UN hadn't been so stock. What about it grabbed you both? Well, I think the the recent I report just was part of a continuing trend every time they every time they issue a new report. It's worse than the last one. So the handwriting's on the wall, I think that you know, the daunting thing is the average person kind of shuts down. They go into denial. I think we'll what can I do about it as a as an individual. And so you know, Susan, I have been very, very concerned about this problem for for years now, and we're looking for ways to empower people. To to make a difference. You've started to make a real difference in your own lives. Right. And Susie, you've written a book about it. Yes, exactly. So I wrote a book called, oh, MD and we had been plant based for about a year and a half and realized very quickly that the school that I founded with my sister, Rebecca, Amos is an environmental school, and we realized we couldn't call ourselves and environmental school and still be serving animal products. So we brought in doctors, we brought in climate scientists, authors and athletes to help educate our community, our children and our families, and that sort of thing. And we had it was mutiny. It was full on mutiny. We had an enormous amount of pushback and one day our head of school got very frustrated and said, people, you can give them eggs and bacon in the morning, and you can give them a burger at night. It's one meal a day. It's, oh, MD and I think from that moment on, oh, MD stuck. So I took that and started doing a lot of research with the doctors in the field and climate scientists and wrote all of the environmental benefits of eating plant base as well as health benefits. And then the book is a guide. It's a guide that takes you through. I hold your hand, so it takes you through having one meal a day, one plant vase meal a day or two or blowing up your kitchen and going all in and the thing that stuck more than anything is that one person having one plant based meal a day for one year saves two hundred thousand. Gallons of water and the carbon equivalent of driving from Los Angeles to New York on fuss staged by that because you say in some of the scientists say that actually changing your diet is even more effective than changing the kind of car you drive an also this report basically saying that livestock accounts for fourteen and a half percent of global greenhouse emissions, and it suggests that people consume as as you say, thirty percent less. In other words, a third less one meal a day. That's correct. Absolutely. So fourteen and a half percent to put that in perspective, makes it the second largest sector for greenhouse gas emissions next to electrical generation and puts it in front of all of transportation combined. So all ships all planes all automobiles and everything. So, well, it's wonderful to buy an electric car and so on. You're, you're only attacking the smaller part of the problem, but changing our diet. Our nutrition is something. We can do instantaneously if we choose to do it. And so it's the quickest way that we have for grabbing the thermostat of the planet and turning it down. All it takes is the the will the desire to do it. And that's where I think a book like Suzy's comes in very, very handy. Just the mind everybody what it is about meat and the raising of meat to be eaten that causes environmental damage. Oh gosh, all the way around the world. So if you've got biodiversity loss, deforestation, ocean acidification dead zones, climate change, glacier's melting. You can connect the dots from all of those environmental issues back to animal agriculture. It says it sounds crazy, but it. But it's true. It's the, it's the single like they're cutting down rainforests in in Brazil to make cropland to grow, feed for animals for livestock, and it's ridiculously inefficient compared to just. Humans just eating the plants directly, cutting out the middleman in a business deal. Now you did mention glaciers, which brings me to the greatest glacier of all time, which is the one that the Titanic plowed into. Okay. That's a little bit of a thin transit is good. Right? I mean, it's good. It's very, I could be a scriptwriter. No, just kidding. But seriously you. You met on that film and many of you films James off, do have the environment somewhat or very much tied into their narrative, whether it's the Titanic avatar. But first of all, tell me how you met an a little bit of what brought you to the environmental policy of your relationship. Well, like I can't Susie. I didn't realize at the time that I was casting her in my life as well. But we shot together only for a couple of weeks because it was really just the present day wraparound scenes at the beginning and the end of the film, we shot together for two weeks and we got along quite well, and and then we started seeing each other afterwards. I'd like to say clearly professional while we were working together. We like we like to call the Titanic. They'll left by. Well, that's and your other film avatar among many, but those two of the highest grossing of all time, they remain the highest grossing bowls. I'm going to see if I can just try to stretch a little bit of the connection between film in the environment. One of the issues James and Suzy is that the positive narrative seems not to get as much as much airing as it should do, and the skeptics tend to have an equal voice in this in this debate on climate. And I'm wondering whether as an actress as director, you guys have have a thought as to how to change the narrative. You know, I know you both saw a documentary together about it, but but what more can be done to to infuse ordinary people with optimism and an empowerment on how to change the narrative over saving the environment. We think one of the things comes back to own MD more than anything because I know certainly for myself. And probably for you too, that you know, you watch these documentaries on the environment, read the stories, and it's devastating, and it's actually paralyzing and you think, what can I do as an individual to really make a difference? And some people can't afford solar or an electric car, things like that. So the fact that everybody eats every single day, it's a simple elegant solution. It's non-judgmental you can just dip, you're towing it and what you're putting on your plate actually makes a huge difference towards not only climate change, but your health as well. Just the health of the planet. I mean the the quick is an easiest way for an individual to be to feel empowered into make a difference and to be able to look at their face in the mirror in the morning, I think I'm making a difference. I'm doing something positive, not just for myself, my own health and my family's health, but for the health of the planet is to change how we eat. So. So I wanna play a little clip from avatar because you know, even if you didn't really understand the planet and the climate. I mean it was such a beautiful, beautiful depiction of what's at stake. And of course, often our culture has stories of doom and gloom, and the hard news around climate is a lot of doom and gloom. So I wonder when you making this film with what you thought about the impact of the beauty, I'm just gonna play it and then you can also me to become. You must choose your own clan in humorless choose you. Can you learn anything. So it was obviously a really, very beautiful in had climate as its as its central theme, right? We'll I think, I think we can't protect that which we don't. We don't respect and love, and I think it all people are born with a certain connection to nature. And then as we live in a more urban environment, the world is going much more urban. We tend to lose it. And I think avatar was reconnection to that kind of like state of seeing the beauty in nature and feeling a personal connection to it. And we quite consciously made the film. Beautiful movies tend not to be beautiful. They tend to be spectacular often, but not. But there's not an emphasis placed on on beauty, just immersive, I, I want to be there in that world beauty. And I thought this is the way to get people to care about the natural world not by beating them over the head with with some kind of message in some sense of of, you know, blaming or call to action. I think the. I think the best call to action is when you when you believe in something and you wanna make a difference, and do you use technology as not just a visual and a and a movie thing, but also as something to help with the environment. I mean, we'll kind of environmental rules and regs. Do you have on your on your shoes? For instance, we'll thanks for thanks for asking that. We put in one megawatt solar power system on the roofs of the sound stages to offset all the power consumption of our computers. So on that we use for the the computer animation. So we're definitely net carbon negative in our from an energy perspective. But I also took inspiration from Suzy's one meal a day program, and I convinced our crew which is about two hundred people to eat plant based during the day while they're at while they're while they're on the production. So we serve only plant based meals on the production are caterer restaurant. There serves only plant based meals and everybody's I, I don't know. Everybody's. Loving it every meal. Some people go off campus to deed at a restaurant if they want to. They have that choice, but people have accepted it. They've accepted the wisdom of it, and they liked the idea that we're the greenest set. Probably the green is set in history. We make all our own power and we eat nothing about. But but plants flex video as Susie. You both cautiously say plant based, and that is kind of the new term for what used to be called vegan. Right? Was vegan a little bit alienating, you know, it's it's starting to make a shift certainly. But initially it was really a word that really revolved around. Becoming plant based for ethical reasons. Animal cruelty, animal cruelty, and and there are a lot of rules and regulations around that. Now I've seen it just over the last three years. They're using it a lot. The word vegan on a lot of for marketing thinking end plant based. So people are starting to realize that that actually sells products. But a lot of people leaning forward, curious about it or wanna make a change for their own health or or maybe for environmental reasons. They don't quite know where to start or they feel like it's it's too much all I couldn't do that. I could never do that and then they find out how easy it is. No good. The food can be. Different? Yeah, and dipping their toe in just doing one meal a day. And typically they feel so great. They end up doing too. So it's it's an easy way into that world. So that's good. That's encouraging. Now I wanna ask you, what is it with you? James Cameron and strong women. You have married a couple of strong women. There's one sitting right there by you. There's the direct to Kathryn Bigelow who was once your wife and you'll characters whether it's aliens, whether it's Terminator on these very strong. Let's just play the this Etienne's clip and we'll talk about strong women on the other side. Get away from her. You bitch. I mean, you know that says it all. So is too strong women in tweeden and and Sigourney Weaver equally matched opponents. You know, people are saying that women really are going to change the world. Is that what you're trying to say, put my, I put my faith in women to change the world. I think I think men approach the world and a certain way that tends to be dominated to and aggressive. It's just how men have been wired since the dawn of time, and it's expressed throughout our entire kind of western colonial culture that we expand through the world, and we dominate nature, and we're going to have to change that that world view, and I think we need a more female. You know, kind of got us base perspective that you know, we have to nurture life. We have to care for it. I think that the great conflict of the future is going to be between the takers, the caretakers. So the taker is a male energy in the caretakers female energy. So I've always respected that and, and I've celebrated women in the films that I've made. Made and and I, I'm lucky enough to be married to a very strong, powerful caretaker warrior. Let me ask you Susie because you wrote the book. There's a new report from the climate accountability institute that says, only a hundred companies have produced more than seventy percent of the world's carbon emissions since nineteen eighty eight. So basically, you know, we can do all we can, you know, to change our diets and things, but we could also just boycott these companies right and force them to change. We can. Absolutely. I mean, you know, being able to do that, but also we really can't meet our Paris accord numbers without addressing animal agriculture. I think that's one of the biggest messages. Yeah, that's a critical piece of it, but I agree that we can. We can vote with our wallets. We can boycott the companies that are the biggest carbon polluters, but we're all carbon polluters if we if we're eating animal products, I don't mean to bang on about this, but but our biggest Bill. Eighty. Two to change things is by simply what we buy and what we put on the end of our our Ford right. Well, actually, even the Terminator your own on Schwarzenegger said at para is that one of the greatest producers of me thing on natural emissions. So he saved by cows. Right? Yeah, they they, it's mostly belches by the way just oh, okay. Okay. Yeah, no, no. Everybody likes to make fun of cow farts, but mostly belches because they, they have this five part stomach called the room and and and it's basically it emits methane all day long all day long. And methane is a forcing gas that that is some some like twenty to thirty times as powerful and CO two. So we've really got to wrangle methane as much as we have to wrangle CO two. Well, thank you both very much for bringing this out into, you know, even more of a public debate. James Cameron Suzy Cameron. Thanks very much. Thank you Christiane. Thank you. Who knew about those guys cows five pas stomachs. Anyway, we turn now to another artist who's making a significant splash the comedian and author Phoebe Robinson, her new book, everything's trash, but it's okay tackles the Ford out of the two thousand sixteen election, sexual harassment in comedy and being a black woman. In today's America, she's best known as one half of HBO's standup show to dope queens and for her podcasts. So many white guys. She's on a mission to change the comedy demography as she told and these Menendez when they met in New York. Phoebe, your first book was a New York Times bestseller. You can't touch my hair and you have your new book. Everything's trash, but it's okay. Tell me about this book y. now. Yeah, I think I was always playing a write another book, but I think after the twenty sixteen election, I know like myself Allama friends, we're just kind of feel like, oh, well, that's not how we thought the movie was going to end do you know? And I felt defeated and kind of bummed out. But then I really was like inspired by on social media and also in real life how people are doing rallies and donations getting so involved with politics in a way that like I hadn't seen like people now are talking about midterm elections, especially on college campuses, and I went to private institute in Brooklyn. New York is very, like involved in politics, and we never talked about midterm elections, so I sorta was feeling down. But then I was like, there's so much. Good. That's also happening right now. So it's how title came about like everything is kind of terrible. It feels like, but we're going to be okay. I think I hope section of your book that speaks to it that I would love for you to read for me. Thank you. Just getting. Maybe I shouldn't have been so rocked by the election results. I mean, once homeboy launches improbable campaign, which got more successful by the week in spite of his around the clock blunders, she never seen him for what it was an upgraded version of a bigoted best signal. The original one was a spotlight shining in the sky and project an image of the KKK Stephen Duke. That was a call to action for people. Trump's ilk, the racist, the sexist homophobic, transphobic, etc. Therefore I couldn't help, but wonder is in the fact that I've never fully believe Trump could be number forty, five assigned that my stubbornness and naievety prevented me from CNN miracle for what truly is. Who wrote this? I did so my question as I read, that's actually was. So then what is America truly. I think America has a very complicated history past, and I think we tend to sort of like kind of brush a lot of the inequalities, whether it's racial class or gender under the rug and be like, we're so great, Aurora and like you the fourth of July and all the like holiday stuff. But I'm like, there's a lot of ugliness in our pass. I think we need to address because that's kind of why things are the way they are currently. So I think America is a great idea that we haven't quite figured out yet how to execute in a way that I think will be Representative for everyone that lives here did writing this book. Hope you reconcile your embitterment around feminism. That's a great question. Here's what I will say when the women's March was happening. I think it a lot of us refueling the raw raw of it all and unlike, yes, women are rallying together. You're very excited about that. And you know, Lana Glazer, and I did a show. There raise money like it was really great, exciting moment and there wasn't bits on the part of black women's yet it was even though that there was supposed to be diversity and leadership that fundamentally there would be white turnout. Right? And you know, the, the lack of representation for queer women, especially laid not treating trans women as women. And so I think on online when that was happening, I was so excited, but it wasn't the only thing that I was feeling and I think by Ryan's essay being like I was conflicted about going and like there still are problems with them and has them in like the lack of intersection out the lack of white women showing up for issues like it's great that everyone came out for the women's March, but I saw almost none of those women like do any sort of like, yeah, let's do black lives matter, or let's talk about immigration or let's talk about trans lies. So I think it's like when they felt Ray to mobilize they want it, everyone else to get on board with them. And it's like, well, you hall so have to go board with us. So I think that's still where the Monismanien. Is kind of lacking, but I'm feeling hopeful. Let's unpack that a little because you write about it in the book about white women and white women feeling like they don't have an access point for conversations about race. So in how how do you bring white women into the fold? How do you extend that invitation such that they show up when you come to show up? I think there's part of it is. Like with anything, may you're interested in if you really truly care, you'll do the research, you'll reach out to people, you'll talk to people. So I personally don't buy the whole like, well, how do I get involved? And I'm like, are you not listening to the Asia women, the queer women, the black women, all different sorts of women around you who are saying, this is an issue. This is important to me. This is a problem. And so I think that there needs to be a little bit of. Not waiting for everyone to teach you and sort of just being proactive and saying, I wanna learn like you're curious person. I'm curious person. If I want to know when beyond say is going to be on tour, don't Google it. You know, you started you the same thing where you're like, okay, why are trans women being murdered at a much higher rate than other women? Let me look into that. How can I get involved? How can I help? So I think it's the same sort of thing. And I think these are tough conversations and really depressing issues to talk about sometimes, but by not talking about it, we're allowing it to continue your perhaps best known for being one half of two dope queens, which was originally started as a podcast and is now on. HBO can tell us a little bit about it for someone who may not have seen it started four years ago, you had twenty fourteen Jess was on the Jessica Jessica Williams. I should say just go Williams is on the daily show, and I just did background on a piece. You did about black women's here in the military, and we sort of just like hit it off. We're just hanging. Around on set, and she says she always wanted. Try do stand up and also, well, we can just do a random like one off show together as goof. And we had so much fun and we just got on stage and I think we really sort of capture the way that a lot of people talk, I think, especially away the lot of black women talk when people aren't looking. And I think people could really says that friendship and that sort of relaxed nature. And then we kept doing it. And I was like, I think this is an HBO thing like each like, stranded. Great here that comes in on Mike o. one step closer to a black history month stale, like it fills bearing. I really love Reidy shows and I think they have been trying to come back. And I think we just found this secret way of like doing, you know, a comedy show. We have our funniest friends on interviewing celebrities in a way that doesn't make them feel pressured, and they could just have fun and be themselves. And we just really found his secret formula that word. I don't want you to say it, like you just said. For every for the industry. Okay. Don't hit all of our cameras overshooting together. How'd you hear you. I got this camera back here. So. And you've also used the show to be a launching pad for other women of color? Absolutely. I mean, Jeff, and I both started out improv, you know, we just saw, we're like so many of our friends are funny. Women people color queer people. We don't see them like necessarily a late night shows are giving the writing job opportunities of the acting opportunities and well, why don't we just have a show like are funny friends and they can have this platform to. And I think he just really resonated with people who may be aren't huge like standup people, it'd be like, oh, there are people out there who are funny who look like me who sound like me and I can relate to this right now. We're in a moment where we are seeing misogyny and harassment expose in every industry eighty one of those industries. But part of what you call out in the book I think is really interesting is that it's an industry wide problem. It's organizational problems. So someone who works in office, they could go to HR department and say, hey, someone's being really creepy with me. You can't do that when you're not inside and organizational structure. And so I wonder then when it's an industry wide. Problem. How do you bring about change. At a certain point to hold at comedy clubs, accountable, comedy, festivals accountable, the sort of gatekeepers and have them really be like this person has been doing sexually inappropriate things in the workplace. We're not gonna just welcome them back with open arms or not. Gonna just be like, oh, this person drops in on the show you can leave if you want. It's like, no, I think it's not having that person perform there anymore because you know a stand up show is the workplace. If someone's behaving inappropriately at a standup show at a hotel where festivals happening, it's just like, well, I just don't think that person can be trusted to be in this space again. And I think it makes a lot of female comedians filled uncomfortable. It's like, well, I don't want to come back to this club of, I think that some guy's gonna show up who's been really just inappropriate and sexually abusive to other women. What are the more subtle forms of misogyny that female comics contend with? I think there's a lot of I remember when I because everyone. Starts out doing standup you're kind of like a baby in the way that your jokes aren't really that good, but you have that belief you now. So you can kinda like coast on personality, and I've seen it a lot. Were you see a female comedians start to get really good way that comedians just like, know how to like crushes show and you'll see the women crush and like none the guys on the line. We'll talk to her or like you'll show up to show and like, no one will talk to me then I'll have like a good set and the guy's like, oh, hey, what's up? And so it's all this sort of kind of like hazy Matt happens where you're kind of like, am I funny? No one's talking me we I suck. So there's a lot of mind games. I feel like how are those experiences further complicated for women of color. I think racism makes it so difficult. So there's Tennessee to just be like, oh, well, if I have this Asian girl on and it's just like a charity thing or this black girl, she's she's okay because she's not like the other black comics. It was a lot of this sort of like separation that happens, or were you have to fill yet to fit in. A certain way. And I think that what's I've been inspired by people like Tiffany, haddish in the alley Wong's and just women who are really stayed shooter their own voices. I think that's what I've done at Jessica's done, and I think for me it took a lot of I'm still working on the like not feeling inadequate when I'm in a room of really, yes. I mean, if you're on a show, you're the, I tend to be the only one way or the only person coloring show and it's all these white guys. And you know, I just do stand up at a little bit differently and I can just since that, sometimes there's a little bit like, oh, you don't do it like the way we do it, and I don't know. It's tough, and I just think that women of color really have to sort of like just because your story is different and your voices different doesn't mean that it's not valid. It's more valid because we need to have different points of view in order to all laugh in exist on this plan together. If people take one thing away from this book, what he wanted to be. I think the one thing would be. To be more self aware. I think I learned through writing a book to be more self aware and. To sort of analyze the experiences that happen to you, like the essay wrote about. Cy stuff. And how do a lot of photo shoots which again, high class problem. But I would just always be like if I would tell people, ten, twelve, ten twelve, which is I think, very kind of regular average Joes size. And then it would just bring me like a size, four or six and I couldn't fit into it is like, oh, I'm so sorry. And I just kept always apologize instead of being like, no, I showed them to this. I gave you my sizes. I'm not gonna feel bad that I'm not a size two or four. And so I think there's so many times with women, especially in life, you just sort of take the brunt of responsibility for something that's not your fault. You know what I mean? So I think with this book I learned how to like speak up for myself, more weather size, like clothing issues or like a guy making a sexually inappropriate comment to me because sometimes I've just been like, oh, like we're taught to sort of like smile or like just laugh it off. Don't make the guy feel uncomfortable, and I think we're all in this time period right now being like, we don't have to do that anymore. Now that you feel empowered to do that. There are things you look back on the you say, I wish I would have shut down a lot sooner. Yeah, I think what I look back on is comedy is very much. You don't make a lot of money for a really long time. You kind of put up with sort of like not great conditions, and I think being in comedy for ten years and having success them starting to have like, I'm now willing to ask for what I think I deserve instead of just being like, I should just be happy that I got an offer. Now I'm like, no. If you want this quality work for me, you have to pay me what I know you're paying a white guy. You just have to do it, and I'm okay asking it and I find that like a haven't had any problems being like, this is what I think I deserve. And so I'm glad that I'm learning that lesson now my early thirties and I hope that carries through. But yeah, I think that's the thing look back on. It's just like I've done like a lot of work for free or like fifty bucks right something and it's just like, you don't have to accept that any more. Thanks so much. Thanks for having me. Phoebe Robinson, they're talking about how comedy can be a harsh place for women. We discuss that and other issues in our exclusive interview this week with Jones chewed and Dave Chapelle. You won't want to miss that. That is it from program. Thanks for watching. Remember you can always this into a putt, 'cause see us online at Allan Poe dot com and follow me on Facebook and Twitter, goodbye from London. Are you interested in learning how enterprise scale companies drive organic traffic to increase their online visibility than download the search podcast from the heart of Silicon Valley here, search metrics Inc, CEO Jordan Kuni delivers actionable insights. How data to navigate the ever changing landscape of Google. The voices of search podcast arm search engine marketers, and business analysts with the latest news and insights. They need to the ever changing landscape of search engine optimization and content. 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