Edward Norton - 11/12/19
Is the moment rank album and thanks for listening. This is well this long time. Coming in a super treat to have A guy in here that I've been friends with for over twenty years and who was so instrumental in me having a career to begin with and be able to do this for a living. Edward Norton Writer Director Producer Actor and incredibly loyal and good friend Edward. Thanks for being here you you got me choked up right just when you were saying writer director. Ask the chick again. I even as you were saying that I was always set me up. No no it does choke me up. I can't believe you last night when you said twenty two years I was. It's like that. How is that possible? You're not even one of my college friends. I know it's crazy. We're we're all dude go. I mean I just showed when you told me your son. Sam Is writing a book with Neal. You'll I was like I am fucking passed it to rounders when he was like you said Eh he was two years old. Here's here's where I want to start so Edwards. New Movie motherless Brooklyn is out and it is a must see movie if you're the kind of person you're listening to this podcast and you are. You need to go see this movie in a theater as it's meant to be seen but I WANNA start And I was David our around and watched Edward Work on it from the beginning. As a as a writer and watching your commitment and determination and relentlessness was inspiring Edward trying to understand last night. What do you think the actual number of years since from when you read it to it actually being released its twenty exactly because I read it in the fall of ninety nine when it came right before it came out I read it and I got it in? GALLEYS A friend I was at a party in the village and a woman. I knew who knew Jonathan. Actually I believe Stuart Blumberg my partner who you know well writer director. He he was dating someone who was friends with Jonathan and tip me off that That that he knew about it and and I got in galleys. So I I was GONNA say years. Twenty years. And Edward went on Our mutual friend embarrasses podcast. And they're really really told the story in a granular gray. We'll get to some of it. But I encourage you to listen to that pod because I want to try to give a little more context of certain things and one is i. Have I have to talk about how we first met. Because I'm really interested in the person you were then and and how much of this this this life you've been able to build. You saw it so when David I wrote rounders and we were Matt was in was cast and we were just about cast. We had this crazy idea Ted Ramey said to us if you could have anybody want they were gonNA maybe cast somebody who's worm who didn't have really credits that mattered to any of us in Teddy one day one. What are we doing? Who who would you guys want? If you have anybody in David and I both said Edward Norton us down on a stone. Three you've done. Three movies had come out and you were smart. You know we can tell you smart and it it is interesting though because primal fear I was in Italy for the Rome Film Festival. We this movie. We opened the film festival. And they did a little career retro. They did a little conversation with and they showed a bunch of clips and I saw clips from primal fear and everyone says I love you also radio but you know what's really wild is. I made a joke about it on stage like I was like I'd never I didn't even change my haircut. I didn't even change my haircut through primal fear. Everyone says I love you when Larry Flint. Maybe on Larry Flint. I combed it the other direction and I had these little fake sideburns in but it is astonishing to me that no one including me thought to say maybe you should change. Adrian was the look in your eye on the front. It was look in your eyes on the front steps of the Supreme Court. When after? When you've won the case you come out there and emory there is this mischievous intelligence at play and your it was clear? You're thinking in our member putting David. I'm putting all three of those things together and saying saying well we have these incredible cast but this is the the amazing thing so they they fly. I have to ask you because this is the moment. I'm I'm fascinated by that because in primal fear basically doing like a you know kind of stuttering Innocent right right then. There's this flip into this like thing and I guess I guess 'cause I'm trying to think what would make you associate any of it with worm because woody woody Allen thing is completely like goofball light the Larry Flint thing. Yeah it's intelligent but it's very square very straight right and worm is the farthest or this thing from square. He's you know Johnny Boy Right. So but what Roberts in French village David me really but he. Dan Bugs Bunny. Yeah Yeah but but I I am curious what you what was it was their stuff in the primal. I'm wolf fear in the in the turn guy in the way. He's sort of needling Richard. Because it because there's not a lot well it's probably hard for you to see the your own charisma like the charisma's one of the hardest things to see right but worm had to somehow be able to keep you the problem with Eric Roberts's character and pope and you're right. Johnny Boys Bez. Eric Roberts from the moment you start you just want Mickey to get rid of them right. Worm had to be endearing endearing so you had to be able to roll with him and understand why Mike was rolling with him until he couldn't am any longer. These guys is poker. Players are very smart so it was really important to us. That even if worm as Didn't do things the way might did that. You understood it and and and it was also like we were just trying to put together an all star team right. We had two zero. We had Malkovich and it was like you know Maddie and so the idea of well. WHO's going to stand in in there and really feel like okay? We have a chance to make diner. 'cause you know David. Our biggest inspiration was diner where these groups and and I do remember seeing Larry Flint and and and both of us saying well. That guy can handle that kind of dialogue. That's the Edward Right. Those were two of those not primal fear but the other two. You had big bursts of dialogue. That were had rhythm musicality to them and you had to be able to deliver that shit to play worm and you were able to get liver that Shit Shit but so they tell us everyone says. Oh Edward Norton Never GonNa do these two biggest star and Ted Demme's it. I was not in any way shape or form like a big star like I literally had done three movies in supporting parts but this was supporting heart and they were positioning you to be leading. Act Time Right. I'm talking about the business people I think. And then we get word that you are that you liked the script and wanted to meet just to know that it wasn't all bullshit or something they had said to us and John. The director trusted David Mehan instead of John. Coming going to meet you because he was he was like Bryan. and Dave. Do you guys want to get into Plane Norton so which was super cool of him to do as a director Detroit. Yes it has nothing and it's kind of a Montana Laconic. It's a very clint eastwood move. Actually it's it's it's sort of like you know I care but not that much that's like and maybe you know it sort sort of like it'll be what it'll be coached us up but then there's the part that I wanNA talk so we get to cal l a text you or call you and you said come over to my the house. We're going to take you to a poker casino. We're going to be you and you should come to my house and you gotta remember as I'm sure you remember everything on your first movie. I remember every detail of everything that happened on that film. And we let us in your house and very warm and welcoming. Oh you immediately said I'm working on. Something is the first thing you did. Did you go working on something. Can I just show you guys. Ten minutes of footage without telling you anything about what you did did know and also I didn't have a house lead was no it was at your house other. Oh it was drew Barry. We're staying Jesse. I was borrowing her house because I remember we walked in and on the right. That's where the Mark Halperin book was against the Front of the. I remember the whole thing yet. So you go compare and you had. The Room had very little furniture but there was that one there was a big TV. Yes and you go here. Just watch ten minutes of footage and you fucking played us. The first ten minutes of American History Acts Oak. I'd really yes you did and you were like I know we just written this movie and you were like. Hey tell me this works because you were when you editing it then yeah and and so literally walking you know you that I don't know your goofball in certain ways and you're like US and your I've context other than the race and I they walk into your house at the curb. Stop and then you turn around and get arrested all jacked up. And then you're like so guys you think works remember just like Holy Fuck. What am I dealing with like? What's this fucking but you were in this incredible herbals pot? What did it feel like to be with us? But I'm really interested in this right and then you were amazing right. We went out together. went to poker by the end of the night. It was an and this happened with mad. It did happen to the four of us by the end of that thing. We were all like family in a certain way. And that's why these bonds have stayed for so long. But what did it feel like to be you in that moment men after those three movies and sort of making his American history x and you know having arrived in California now at that spot not in in your life what what did it feel like. I have to sort of think back on. I mean I guess we're talking talking about. I feel like we it. The only thing that's strange about that is that we we made rounders we rehearsed it. In the fall of nineteen ninety eight no came out and date. It was ninety seven. Oh I know it was the end of ninety ninety started filming December right. No Fight Club in ninety eight. Well okay so that makes it make more sense. Yeah we may yet we made. You're right right. It was early on in in like the post process of American industry acts. It's late ninety seven and right. Yeah so an interesting thing had happened right. Then which is I was supposed to. I was GONNA do the original incarnation the runaway jury that fall But what had happened. There was a lot a lot that year. Here is a pretty wild year because in the spring the previous year everything I did had come out all in one. Wave Tsk primal. Fear came out in the ninety six was primal fear. The fall and in the fall was Larry Flint at the New York Film. Festival and Woody Allen's Allen's movie there and then the Oscars was in the spring of ninety seven Cetera. But my but my mother passed away in the spring of ninety seven literally like two weeks before the Oscars and I was you know I was pretty I in all these when you talk about like. Oh you know he's not going to do is supporting part in their queuing him up for big things. And what's the mood. You're in but the thing was I had just like I just dry dumped off of doing everything because like when my mom died I I was basically like my dad needed help of course and I had been. I had been away working a lot. You know all this all the newness Of everything that was breaking open for me was happening when my mother was getting ill And so I my whole. Mike's not not primal fear. But but across making the Woody Allen Film and then making Larry Flint I was not having I was loving the work but any forty eight hours. I flew home so so there was no like I'm partying. I'm hanging with woody. I'm doing this. I'm doing you know it was like it was like do. I have two days off gone home so I was and and the thing that was weird about that is one of I was like I need to not be working. But my mother was like my biggest champion of being and she was like she was like you are argued. There is no way. You're not doing woody Allen film there is no you know. She showed me all the way down films like we watched them and it's it was literally like it was. It was a strange moment because and an American is Jack's we pushed because we we were going to do it and we pushed it they. They were very nice and we pushed it because she was really ill and then and then I went to it too soon after after she passed away. Honestly which which is in that film on your. It's it's more. Yeah more like the the the second second half of his story and stuff like that but but it does things and by the time. I got done that when I got done that I really kind of collapsed. I was like I was like I need to. I gotta be like a human being. You know what I mean like. I can't I can't like just I can't keep like I forgot forget being careerist I was like I got. I got nothing like I'M A. I'm not what I'm not in a place but it was right at this moment. So did what was wild. Was I was supposed to off. I was going to play the lead part in Terry Malick Thin Red Line. The Jim Caviezel so part. Right which have laughed about Adrian. 'cause I I knew that Shawn's part and did Jim Caviezel played where the really great parts and I had gone on I had spent a year Mo- a lot of that year I had been flying. I had also been going to Austin Texas to walk along the river with Terry and talk talk about that and he was one of my idols. Course and I was very Bought I was very passionate about doing that with him. I was so excited about working with Terry Malick on his first film in forever and I just worked with me Loesch foreman and it was like Oh my God Neil Foreman and Terry Malick Alec. And it's like this is like the dream you know and But I caught when my mother passed away I. It was like a month before I was supposed to go. It was the thin. Red Line is GONNA be like six or seven months in Australia and I just felt my dad than just my family I was like I can't I cannot leave. I can't go away right now for that long. It's too selfish. It's too and I don't have it. I'm I'm not like in a good place and I and I taught and I pulled out of it which was very heart defect? That I pulled out of it shows that it really wasn't even had to be has if because an answer when I pulled out of it. I Terry I was very understanding very humane about it And then there was like and then I didn't do anything anything. I wasn't doing anything at all. I was just kind of drifting. And then they came out with the runaway jury very and Joel Schumacher was like really really leaning induce. Before David and I wrote that became the movie and it was about that cigarettes. Yeah not not not not guns and is you know the guy on the jury is his lost his sister to you know lung cancer right. He's going after it was it was the girl now. You figured out should be him. It was like girlfriend. Actually write write. His girlfriend had lost somebody L.. At Yankee helped yeah so it was. It was Anyway there was. This is how crazy it was going to be. Sean connery sorry in like Gene Hackman role was committed. Gwyneth paltrow was going to be Rachel vices. The girl you are going to be in Coosa yeah and and and and it was all baked and and I was like very disinclined to do grisham thing. It was like to me. That was not at that time in your life even though you wanted to do the other Grisham movie that Matt God no that was later. Oh Oh no no. It wasn't it wasn't they. I was very disinclined and I thought Joe was really nice but it felt to me like a programmer and these other things I've been looking at were so they were so rich rich. The thin red line you know. And then I and then Toll Schumacher like leaned into mainland into bin Laden and he and he said all these things he was like you have to trust me. I need you in this to make good but you need to do one of these. You need to do a big starring part with big people and this is your. You should do it. You should do it. and Ed La Motto. My famous agent was going like kid. You do one of these. The world is open to the bub-bubba and I'm sort of like going and and honestly what twenty seven ninety six. Yay This is ninety seven. Yeah Twenty eight and he but the honesty a funny thing happened to me. which is I sort of did something I don't often do which is I sort of surrendered to? I surrendered to Lake Nick in my own mind. I was like I'm too. I'm too blown out to do anything deep. I can't I can't do anything deep I can't I pulled out of the thin red line. I I can't think straight and I can do this in my sleep. Well something I've ever heard heard I say I can do this. I can do this. And there's a certain tactical argument that people are making that I don't really relate to but and like I'd rather you know but I was like you know what it's in La. I'm not in lots of it. I can slide over to the editing room on American history. Acts accent was like you know what this get paid really well like more like I you know. I didn't paid like like you know a couple hundred grand I think at most sure you know and it was like they were talking about like millions and millions of dollars. So we'd like you know just like life altering and it just felt like you know what don't be just be let your let yourself do something easy right now. It's good it's fine it can you. Can you can use. And so they're doing it and they made me pay or play on the movie and then they pay you tell people that means they start art date and they don't want you. The studio is now committed to you. Yeah they say you're committed. And they say here's a start they were booking your time. And they had a start date and and and then like Joel's Batman movie and he went through this like he went in the other direction he was like. I need to be doing something serious. I can't keep doing Grisham Batman Grisham Batman and then he was like he literally I was like I can't everything he had said to me. He was like. I can't do this programmer. You know what I mean for. Or and he and he bailed. Hollywood actor bailed after they made you pair play and he build. And here's the thing you talk about like little. I was like I was just like laughing. I was like see I was right. I was right right. But was warner brothers. Back in like the Billy Gerber. Lorenzo Bonaventure is I. We know these guys from A. I wouldn't have known him if I'd seen him in a crowd Warner's originally Fox so I so I I I yeah and it was regency too. Because they hadn't jump region anyway anyway. So I'm like I had thought myself and my big Hollywood Hollywood agent. He's going he's going he's going you sit tight your old say God damn word you let this ride. You know you're going to get paid for you know and and then I'm GonNa get you paid again. That he did it for Jen's Oh you know what I mean. You're going to get paid then you're gonNA get paid again because you love 'em like this sounds good research ed and I'm like and I'm like and I had this little sit with myself and I was like you know what like that's not a good long game in this town and so I asked to go so I go into warner brothers which check never been to a drive into work and I go to the big executives. There's I walk in and I sort of said. Hey guys I said listen you know honestly all all of this was Joel. Dino Joel leaned on you to make me pay or play like earlier than normal and I I honestly was a little ambivalent about it in the first place I am not nothing and I said I so appreciate it but my I said my feeling is listen. I know you you know you got me but I said you know what. Why don't we just? We should just tear this. Wow and shake they can say like. Let's find another one you know and I was like what could I do. That could be more. Stand up right and walking in and saying hey you know we sure This is an arranged marriage. Let's let's like like each other for the long-term right and I play out now and they all go and these guys and they all go they go. Oh my God like you're such a man. She or what a good you know. Like what a great guy but but but no. We're making the movie and I was like like. Oh because it's supposed to start in like four months and there's no like July or August. I'm like there's no director and they're like do you want to make the movie. Do you believe in the movie and I was like candidly. I I think there are things that could be great about it. I think this this and that and they were like Joel Joel. They're like wheat. People are lining up to direct. This movie who do you think would be great and I start dreaming and I start going. We'll God what about Sydney Pollack. What about This person that person Anthony Gala. You know I'm like throwing out names and there and they if you start going great. Let's work on this together. We're we're doing. We're doing it like you. We want you in it and you and I was like okay but now if I say yes like I really am not going to do something else so we really are doing it right. And you're like yeah so I start like throwing names in and they're saying no no You know they're saying no to people and Lo and behold like the time comes around and the movie is supposed to start and there's no director there's no production and now at goes he he goes. You're getting paid like he goes out and so in my mind. I'm going this. This can't be good no matter what. It can't be good to force a studio Japan million dollars or whatever you're not going to make it blah blah. It can't be good and aren't in relations lawyers get all toothy with and then they look at the deal and realize warner brothers. has boxed us us in to paying money for a movie. That's not going to get made. They were so angry. And then someone sent me the rounders script and in that this thing and I'm just sitting there going. I tried to do the right thing I but I'm really on the fence about like what should I do. And there was kind of thing until late came in and they were like and it was in the same slot. Yeah and I kind of went. This is great like this is great. This is really fun and I could use it like as an let them off the hook thing because it it was in the same slot I could say. Hey whatever they give me at remediate staff and why don't you guys get fifty cents on the dollar or what. It gives me a a chance to have a great time to exactly what I wanted to do. In the first place with the kind of people I wanted to do it with and still get the same dough and and make a man WanNa break them. You know go go okay. This guy's all right and so it was like and so it was really funny because that was the end of that year and when you guys came out and I went around it was like I I lift. I felt that year because the it was a bad year her weird it was it was it was it was here on one level and a bad God year dominates everything it was it was it was actually actually it was like the Oscars I barely remember making American extracts was like it was like putting a finger in the dike right. It was like a way way to just shove everything completely decide then it was just like a it was a bad year. It just nothing. Everything was like I just was it was a bad year And and you know and at the end of the year it was like okay this. This is starting to look like the fun that all this was going to produce you know when it kicked off a two years ago really you know what I mean right and so I did feel going into rounders like I. It was Kinda like this deep breath like all right. I'm allowed to have some fun. You know what I mean that's awesome. Yeah yeah well that night felt like obviously to the to to Dave in me you know like I said we watched the American history thing. Where like all right? This is really fucking intense and then you mark help book which meant the world to us to people who don't know not Mark Halperin Mark Halperin. They're different people and then going out into those poker casino already sort of and it was great because we could see already sort of figuring out watching and figuring out mannerisms and had had to do the thing But had you because of what went on with your Mother did. Did you get to really enjoy the whole thing. Until after until you're in New York on rounders and then after that when you went off and did fight club like like you said to me during that because of somewhere on remember you turn to because it was such a learning experience and you said just you know you're gonNA be on a lot of people who become famous the first two years people come famous. They're kind of useless. Do you remember saying saying that the first year comes famous. They're useless. Don't ever worry about with someone doesn't if I hear it was great because you would just come through you. Were just on the side of that it kind of did you get to enjoy it. Then no I I mean and the funny thing was rounders was really fun. I thought Around is really was like a spot. A lot of of lightness and fun and kind of You know because obviously like I remember we said we shot in some bar on Eighth Avenue and sixteenth or seventeenth street or eighteenth and Nineteenth Street. I don't remember which Bar Billy's topless when when no no no wasn't billy's topless note all the way west and also that was sixth avenue with Microcephaly. Yeah no we shot on Tenth Avenue and in the teens just north of Chelsea market. It was the bar where Matt and Martin Landau. Of course. I don't remember what it was and I wasn't in the scene but I did something else earlier that night and I was just it was because that was done it was New York I was done. It was like go to my apartment. It was like go but I didn't want to. I was like I'm hanging because Landau I think it was Landau's Dow's first night right. Yeah or something like yeah maybe it was last night whatever and it was like it was like it was like you guys were there. Teddy was there air Madden Marlin the whole. Yeah and everybody was there and it was cold and I remember in between takes like or whatever Landau I. I remember one night in particular that we were standing on the corner and everybody was sort of in big big coats and land was telling stories about James James Dean but he still laugh because he did. He did that whole thing. Where he's like? Well being my Jimmy and we would go up to them. To this roadhouse et the tour and we would do this thing I would say Jimmy we go to these things and he would say mark. We gotta do this thing. And I'm GonNa Jimmy. We gotta do this Jimmy Dean the new like luggage nine minutes about something I would do with my pal. Jim Jimmy and we do this we do that and then he would pause and look around the circle like Jimmy Dean and I laughed so hard cleopatra that Patras Elizabeth Taylor Learn and Richard. So that was. He's in that he is some small thing in and he goes he goes you know I was the only one in the makeup trailer with the two of them and I was the only one who knew what was going on like whatever and he would constantly and I was like you know you're barely able to hold onto what that it is so anyway. That was fun and then And then did you get the fight club script in the middle of that. Yeah it was a cross that same same fall was across the same fall when we were rehearsing. And whatever and he's he sent it to me and I read it and I knew it was great and I that was all that things sort of to me. In that moment things sort of click start clicking a little bit like in the sense of you know like okay this this is I'm I'm okay to start to get into gear and enjoy myself and and rounders was Super Super Fun and and And then You know it's funny to dyke details. I had this very funky apartment for a while on on rounders I had I still. I lived in New York since college after college but I got this during rounds. I got this little apartment. That was a tiny tiny. Any little Brown's was named brands at one of those two story. You know the you know the greasy spoon diner in the village on Hudson on Hudson called Bonbonniere of course. Yeah like right right by Jane Street right and we're very close to there right now and and and there are these tiny little things that are from the eighteen. Hundreds hundreds there two stories tall across the street and I had this little apartment. That was very funky. Likes super suit. You could literally imagine like Bob Dylan and suzy core Yang hang there. Yeah of course it really. Is that kind of joint. Creaky old stairs and weird and everything that all the time when I walk around here by the way and I and every time I go by there now and the funny anything is in motherless Brooklyn scene of me and Willem in the diner when he says I'm hungry buy me dinner. We go in the diner. It's we use Bonbonniere and It's that really pretty Edward Hopper you looking shot at the start of the glass in our thing and the whole night. We wish it was snowing the night we shot there with William you know and I live three blocks from there. Karen Willing lives like two blocks from there and we were both kind of just going isn't it. Isn't it fun to like work in New York and things that we got talking and I said you know I live cry. I lived literally right there across the street and he goes. Oh that's funny I lived. I lived right here around the corner and it was Kinda like the you know the. It's amazing to work in a place where you've worked and you see ghosts of yourself like goes to myself on these sets and doing these things thanks and the and the thing is like rounders to You know so that apartment and the the places we work than the details tells of it or are so funny because remember the Blackberry it wasn't even called blackberry was called rim. That was the original company that made the blackberry but at the rim had the original little black pager it was the led screen. It was just a black rectangular pager that you could text on row. I don't it wasn't that firm and it had it had the blackhawks I had by then a little phone from my record Biz days like I definitely had no. We had phones Motorola flip phone but this was they came out with their texter and it was. It was a small rectangular thing with the great thumb keypad. That blackberry was. That's what everybody loved but all you do is text and that had one and so I was like an I got one and David Blaine lies just met David which is another another interesting thing for. I met David on rounders because you would just ask him right there. Yeah because I I met him through a lean Keshishian the agent who had given me the rounder script and she represented him and I said and he was like a kid practically and I said you know. Hey I gotta do this thing where I get caught bottom dealing and you know. Can you show me that. And he and he said like I'd love you know he was like I'd love to help you in any way and I was like can you. Just show me shuffles. Can you show me like enough to look good. And he was like a bomb dealings really hard and David said. We'll I'll show you stuff enough but I you should really just meet Steve Forte. And David Introducing Steve Forte. Who is the all time? Great manipulator of cards with the purpose purpose of cheating. Yes he's written. Second dealing bottom dealing. David was like literally nobody better David. Come up with the ACE thing. Herded Steve Come up with the ACE thing. Housing know if you remember when you first see Matt you're really good and you and I know how yeah you get. It kept. Who came up with that David? That was David. Yeah I remember you coming up to us and saying I know how to do the thing. And what's funny is what's funny is actually jumping forward and connective. Like that's when I became friends with David and then when we did the illusionist David Ricky jet. I mean Ricky Rick Ricky. He obviously was our main Dave Levin and I went to Ricky and Michael Weber and then you had no no and I went to. I spent all the time with Ricky in L. A.. Ah Fifty two. We went to fifty to fifty two assistant assistance together on the west side. Me You in Libya at the Geffen playhouse. The movie yeah but but when they work in New York New York New York took a whole year Renan age one of US went onstage as the assistant. Yeah whatever that that's wild that's really wild. I but but David David again really specifically when I was showing the film he was like this. You know obviously you're he said you're already working with Ricky and Michael in there like the kings of the period nineteenth century historical stuff and everything but when I said to him when we were working on the illusionist and I thought the the orange trick the thing of the tree. The mechanical are intrigued. Growing out of the pot and the whole thing. I had a notion that I wanted to do something fluid with the orange in my hand and I was talking to David about that and he goes. Oh let me show you Michael Motion and so David. David showed me all the old videos of Michael Motion. The juggler who won a Macarthur Genius Award and you saw Michael Motion doing those things where a ball seems to roll roll around his fingers and and I was like well. How do you think I could even do like one bit of that? Like the thing we put it on his fingers and it rolls across and and David basically like D.. David knew some of Michael motions techniques for the handball stuff and he worked with me on that. I have a few things that I want to get. Make sure that we get to re related to two things that you've said that I can just come out of one of those is we really talking about is the beginnings innings of building a creative community that you could lean on and and and who all could lean on you too and for David Lavina and me VAT that is probably in a certain way one you know one of if not the greatest thing that came out of that time was that all of us because we were young together and because we had a lot of the same intentions I would consistently check in with each other sheriffs scripts with each other through creative problems is and and I I remember runaway jury which is Hilarious have never talked about that on the show them when Grisham on But Dave and I were at a weird spot career strike was coming. We didn't really want originally. We were like Oh. We don't think we're the right guys. Do this and then agent made the same call to us that Lemay to you. You Tom Strickler was like you have to do this if you do this. And you are able to deliver a green light draft. You will then be the kind of writers they can come to for. He was like there's is a math and say he goes. There's a math reason why you need to do runaway jury and David and I said we called you because we knew that you you had. We didn't call you to be in it. We knew it was very clear you weren't going to be in runaway jury but we called you and we said why did you ultimately want to go off that movie and what do you think. Because we knew you'd studied it and we respected your take on scripts so much and I remember you said because the main character you really take it. Apart doesn't have personal incentive. He's not connected to the problem and if that guy doesn't have his own reason he can't go through all this just because his whatever and I remember we had this like our long Combo Ombo with you and at the end of it. We understood what we don't bear the lead. It was literally library the lead. Look if this guy's GonNa give you said like either you make the woman's ends care either. The the other character has to be the character on the jury. It's the dude then. That guy has to have his own reason and you know again. We're all young and I was still in our thirties thirties. And you unlocked it for us. Which and and we've all done that for each other and I don't know there's something I don't know of people understand that there? Is this creative community in. Haven't you found you've gotten tremendous value out of that. Not just with us with this cold sort of cohort of appears. Here's yes although it's funny because like I think I I think on rounders you guys were the nexus like even though Jon Dahl came on and even though all these actors came on the truth of that whole thing emotionally is that you guys were the nexus. It was your thing It just was and and and because it was fun for all of us but a career inflicting moment women for you guys you re you derived the network out of it more than the the rest of us in the sense that. So you're at the hub. Everybody else state. You stayed connected to Matt to me you know Mount or Teddy All of it. All you built these threads of connection and and we've done illusionist. You guys the runaway script gripped said stuff like that you guys unlocked models Brooklyn script issues for me when I was struggling with that. But what's funny but I don't you know L. A. Community. That's not a community. That's not a community that I built but but it's a IT'S A. It's you guys built a network work. That's that you've expanded talking more about that whole period of time for you and the way that I'm not sure people know that sure you go from movie to movie as we all go from project to project and build these but I'm talking about in general Vit- There's a creative community of people that you've built. Yes but but what I was getting to. Who is what's interesting is what's happened with you guys what we were doing that you know Matt had a good will? Hunting was exploding at that exact moment right and and and Matt and Ben and Casey and and you know the the the th they ear their crew like was lighting up into a thing that is still there you know that that's like all of their thin right there. There club there clicked their their crew And and I went on I went on over to fight club and you you know one of my great experiences without a doubt not just like what the film became but just it was just funny and fun and vital and we were making making things about with love those guys but fincher and Brad had already and sustained from Lake. They they they they they they were like a you know they they were a a team. You know what I mean and and Dave. They've used they've they have this alliance. That's gotten a lot done. They got a lot done together. You know what I mean over the years and everything and I I have frequently gone through and by the way I felt this way in high school. That's weird like I was a floater. Like I never. I never had a group of friends in high school rally complete floater. No like I I. I was always like I was always on the margins and an that was not true in college. I had. Yeah and that's my my deepest bench of friends. The the people I met when I was eighteen are my tightest longest group but But in the movies it was funny I would sometimes like like move around and be like I can see. I can see that that happens. That there's like alliances of people and you think about like Redford and Newman or you think about like The cohens and like their crew. And you're just sort of going like like you know the dream. The dream of every actor I think is to be in repertory company. Right now is to be part of a theater Troop that was part of my romance for sure. was like literally going back to when I was in college and read about Orson Welles for the first time when I I read. I don't even know Melvyn Douglas's brochure. Sure whichever is the book. I know. Melvin Douglas of course. I don't know right that it was him getting the best wells book is the Henry Jagua if you haven't read that yeah that's the greatest but I I I remember thinking my God. He was twenty five years old. He was twenty five years old and he he was more adult from time he was eighteen or nineteen the most people but still he was very very very young man but what he did when he got his his shot to be a winner kind kid and direct a movie and he made this thing is he took. All of his New York Theater Radio people and brought them across into to citizen Kane Agnes moorehead judge cotton all these people that he knew knew him weren't GonNa like look look down their nose at him like some snotty kid that he he was already he was already he already had a troop. You know what I mean. And he and he took them across Senate like that always made me go. That's what you want. You want like you want people who you don't have to prove yourself to you know what I mean. Who who who kind of do things? But when I but when you're talking about community I like had made great like you guys were D- John Curran when I went and made The painted veil with him and another movie two movies with him. Yeah you know and I I really you know I wanted to keep working with him or whatever but we but it's funny like I until I started working with wes anti-stalking with wes. I really did not. I have never once working in Hollywood. Felt like I was in a group a group or in the cool kids club like I always felt that Nadya partly like being a New Yorker and never totally buying into being out there or the nature of the things I did like I couldn't be more tight with David McKenna. Who wrote American History Acts We? We went through the fire. Hire together right bonded forever. You know what I mean like an But he does his thing. You know there's I have great like histories with people all but an but in less I've done my own thing I never I had to create my own ones like i. I you know on motherless Brooklyn I had to like pull together but you have. I mean you did make your production company with your like best friends for life in and do yeah And well it's fascinating that you've felt like West is west is you're part of that world. Thing was the one that I most sort of felt felt like in a weird invited into what is more fun to talk about than the New Yorker. Here's here's thing I talk about the New Yorker with my friends with the people I make television with with amy. My wife with our kids are grown. Kids we talk about the New Yorker all the time because the New Yorker has the most compelling articles that any you can find anywhere and I'll tell you something to to me. It represents the best writing in America today they also hold people in power accountable through reporting and compelling storytelling honestly. That sounds dry when I say it like that. They just look at the world they understand the world they understand power dynamics understand. I want to say these are specific ethic writers who are experts who spent years training themselves to be able to look complex situations. Take them apart and understand and the inequities understand all of the different power dynamics and the thing is you read the New Yorker and you have a great time while you're doing it you also maybe I'll pick up the magazine because there's an article about a film. I'm interested in or a particular news story but then I mean you know maybe I will go oh to the site because there's a specific article I want. I want to read about you know a movie that I'm interested in or an album or a book or a particular political story story but soon I'll find myself getting lost in things I didn't even know I was interested in at all beforehand. I mean I I you end up. Finding reading. Tens of thousands of words on subjects like The dinosaurs last down Earth or an indigenous tribes fight for their home. These are incredible writers writing about important and crucial stuff in a way that is gripping and and really fun and you can get twelve weeks six bucks plus the New Yorker tote bag home delivery the print edition each week unlimited access to New Yorker Dot Com ten to fifteen an exclusive site only stories every day access to the APPs online archive crossword puzzle and more get twelve weeks to Newark or for just six bucks. Plus the exclusive tote go to New York dot com slash moment summit listeners save fifty percent when they enter moment New Yorker dot com slash moment. I want to cover a couple of other things that are really related to you one and I wanNA firsthand talk about this idea that you monkey with scripts and I just Wanna I wanna I wanna give you a writer's perspective and then talk through because when you showed up on the first first movie now movie rounders showed up on on the first movie. I remember you came up with five of the best lines in the movie and and That wasn't monkeying with the script. And I remember the being a writer and around the first day you came up to David me and you said something like I have an idea for this. Maybe maybe the line isn't this that and the rhythm and rounders is so specific and I remember having a moment of panic back which is where any of these disagreements come from is creative panic where you're worried the ground is gonNA fall out from under you and I and and then David I just saying to you. Hey Pants anything anything off of us. If we can have a relationship where you're gonNA come up with thing if a line feels weak and you have a better line if we can then say to you. We don't think that one's better keep going and I don't know how much you remember this but I remember we would get in this rhythm where sometimes we'd say. Hey Dude does reason this has to be like the way it is because it plays in these three ways and you went. Oh Yeah of course done or you would say something like snow snowing Pirogies and Shit and and I find your contributions to be so additive and that if somebody meets you I just WanNa say just like on the record with you here like if somebody meets you from a place of security and a place of trying to make the work better. It's a fucking looking delightful experience to work with you and and it only makes the end result better but I think if somebody comes from a place of holding on incredibly tightly then it can be difficult because of the part of you. That's like Lionel in motherless Brooklyn because what I see can you tell the story about line and you say well it's an actor you see all sorts of reasons why the character was appealing to you. But I see having watched you and thought about this stuff. A lot is your like Lionel. Aren't you in that if thing like if you can hold when you get something in your head that it's not landing ending right in creatively in store. You're trying to tell as an actor. I just think you have to chase it down until it feels right. Yeah yeah the the there is a bit in the movie where he talks about in motherless Brooklyn he talks about how he can't stop doing a thing if it doesn't sound right And that that's what's that that that comes from A thing I saw in a documentary the member Chris Jackson NBA player Mimo Mohammed Abdul. What what did he isn't that the name Mohammad Roof? Yeah right sorry I forgot in. Ah I'm pretty sure I think you're right I. I didn't know him as a player. I wasn't tuned into him as a player. Yes but in the documentary about people with Terrell. He was still Chris. Four so He talks about the reason he has threats. In the reason he became A one of the reasons he became a great free throw shooter was that he couldn't stop. He couldn't leave practicing free throws until he hit ten in a row. The sound of the net was exactly right out and I remember thinking that's amazing. That's so wild. The big and I really related needed to that like I really related to that. I the compulsive Nisa all my life. Since I was a kid I've had a compulsive impulse else to mimic people to like Zelic like to. If I'm talking to someone with a Chinese accent I start unconsciously. I can't stop myself from like my brain gets completely fixated on what is what are they doing. What is the shape of the mouth? That's producing that sound. And I was talking about this with Larry Wilmore the other day. 'cause he's he's he does impersonations he's so smart and we talked and I really interesting talk about the The being very young and being so obsessed with the sound of people's voices that you're almost like in a movie you're doing a mental mental processing on what does the tongue. Where is the tongue in the mouth? That's producing gnat sound. You know what I mean us and and I think I talked about this with Matt sometimes. Sometimes because Matt's very good at Matt Damon's does great impersonations and stuff and and I remember. I remember sitting in the car when we were doing in The stuff down at Princeton. Or whatever we're sitting in the car and he was doing either Morgan Freeman or Denver with so you guys Rosanna midnight run. We're doing all kinds of things. We were doing different ones but it was funny because He you know kind of everybody does Matt McConnell on a he and I think everybody is pretty good but matches the best if good. Justin long's is really really good. Have you ever heard I believe you. It's really good and Jim Carey. Terraces was not bad either on Saturday night live but there is a this is going down the rabbit hole. But there's this thing You know you know I have a cold hold right now but I I can't do. McConnell has thing was instincts the whistle. He has whistling teeth right. There's the funny thing is Ian mckellen. Has that too like when you're talking to Kessel. Yes it's that sound right and he really does wonderful. You know at He one time said to me When we were both up for the Oscars or something he goes on my dear boy boy? That's I was given this fund and he goes no. It's horrible because I want it. I want it. It really made me laugh and I said Oh well you know I think maybe you're GonNa get it 'cause you know. Tom's got a couple of times and my thing with the swastika. Nick Nolte's The's pretty dark you know You know like I you know it could be your year and nobody had said Ian goes. He said he was fine. So you wonderful. You want to pay anyone as long as it's not that fucking Italian clown no really then of course Scott so you were saying about this obsessed. He was putting. I WANNA say he was being funny But but the thing that I recognized because it does I think is the way that you're misunderstood. Edward which is the when someone is an actor. And they're the reputation is they're gonNA fuck with stuff. It it presupposes that the thing shouldn't be fogged with. And he's suppose is that you came into its saying you wouldn't fuck with it but it also presupposes poses that it's driven by ego and driven by a need to make yourself look good and I've never seen that point. Let's talk. Can you talk about it a little bit. I think I think there's there's layers upon layers of Horsh it in in what you would call like reputational things. The the first is that is what you said that any anybody who's pushing on the work like there's people who are there's people who are exercising themselves. Who knows what they're doing? Forget whether they have the chops are not the intention is about the me. It's it's it's it's it has something to do with assertion of ego if people are working hard learned to put pressure on the piece of coal to turn it into a diamond and that's really what it's about than people outside the trade should just F- right off because they don't understand like the whole thing is a collaborative process of collective pressure. Sure on a thing that is not a thing it is it is a mirage. It's like a a movie and by the way a script is not a movie a script is an armature that movie gets hung. I think it depends but yes I think there are times. This is what I would say like. I remember when you were going to do I. Wes Anderson I remember saying to. You are are are you at your house and I was going to be able to. Just go and say those words and you were like yeah. I read the script. It's what it should be and I'm GonNa go say the words by the way but by the wait in that case it was still an armature. It's still west is armature for what he was going to create. It doesn't changing. Words doesn't change the fact that a script script is not a film like new. There's there's music and there's the weights photograph hundred percent the proscenium quality of films. And there's the costumes and there's also like discovery three of shit that just doesn't work way And and it. It's a frame that you it's a frame that you continue to build the sculpture around and that's just a fact it you you can't project a fucking script onto the screen. You know what I mean. It is photography light. Music is yes. Reading is wasted a script reading quite different than the movie. It Ain't a movie and and it's this layer cake that the meals foreman told me films sculptures and that's the most true thing and he told me that shooting a film is gathering clay. He was Milosz was like yes. Not Not dismissive of scripts but militia like was like the script is like literally a a place a step one on one hundred step journey. He was like he prioritized casting and editing. He was like those are the two most important things in fellows are crucial. And he he you know I'm just saying people have different views of it but the bottom line is the thing that's most choose that it's a sculpture. The script is the the armature the the the the form the frame you gather clay when you shoot shoot you sculpted later you add varnish you add glaze. That's that's what it's like. You know what I mean. And but anyway when people when people work when people's focus is let's make the best thing we can make. Nobody should ascribe automatically the intention shen of ego to it. That's just not the case that there there are lots of people. There are lots of people in our trade who work with a very passionate intensity on the thing itself. I've worked with Julie. Taymor I've worked with David. fincher of worked with like Spike Lee. Eh Alejandro do like if you think. Those people aren't ball busters lake. You know and I've worked with with writers who were who were being pushy demanding whatever worked with actors who are being demanding like but when people are working on the thing when they're when you know what they're doing is is carrying investing and bringing to it depth breath of thought. And Care you just have to respect that. I know there are many many many films where the process this is. Full of of struggle of different kinds even interpersonal creative struggle. That ends up where and and if the people are all good always they shake hands and go. That was that was that was congressional right. Yes David I always talk about. When you've been in the wars with people by you are bonded? Yeah no matter what as you go through that absolutely and and and when you when you when you argue even and get to the end and shake hands and go and go you know respect man. You're you take the Syria Eh. You take this seriously we did it. And and I think you know what could be better like. Honestly what could be better you want to be in a grownup trade or are you WANNA and I guess I guess it makes sense to me because David and I have this process ourselves first. Because they're two of us. Yeah so we are talking about this stuff and trying China improve and really check it. I would say the only thing I mean people who are secure yes to your point. People who who who are in their own shoes on their own footing almost never resent work. I Thrill I would say there are terms. I would say you can set the terms of engaging right on a certain project. You won't say hats it too so so the thing is the other the other you know the big distortion the huge distortions. That comes in on on like an act say is what were the terms of engaged in terms of engagement. Our kids beyond beyond key because because when someone in When someone says I need you in on this thing you know I need you in on it and you say to them yes no yes no right this is name? Shame why and you say because because in my opinion these things don't work it doesn't work for me and they say we're GonNa fix that together her and may say I want you to be not only a part of that in some cases they say a yes or yeah take a pass is or whatever and that gets reduced down to. He gets in people's faces fully valid. I think war or he monkeys scripts. It's like Hey Mojo monkeying with the script the studios paying me a weekly for five weeks to do a punch punch up on this. That ain't especially if you especially want to say I think it is perfectly valid for an artist a writer director writer producer to say. We're GONNA make this. I've thought about this for really long time. The rhythm of these words really matter to me. I'm not very interested in changing it. You WanNA come. Yeah and then if that is what every film if done with Wes Anderson at the right. Yeah it's like I want to do this and then if you say yes. Those are the terms engagements right and I've seen I'm saying I've seen you do that and be like great. Let's go to work but also we. You're also so getting into the territory of what I would call like so so the terms of engagement are are never ever are never given context you know like any any stories in these stories that come out. The terms of engagement are never given context the the the truth of the truth of the fact that the good lots of the people who have real chops are never in the end in intractable or offended that that only insecure people all who often don't really have any jobs And we're lying about what the terms of engagement were people who'd be about at this stuff. I know I agree with you and and And the other thing is is that this sort of is the other other thing is like like so you know like on Americans reacts for instance. There's all this story about like conflict on that rate Descriptive that movie was written by David McKenna. David McKenna it was. It was edgy. And it had a whole drug subplot it and all this stuff it wasn't. It wasn't the full on Shakespearean tragedy that we made it and I thought it was full of potential but I thought it had a lot of Lake Mill. You you fat on it and it had this thing that was not being realized which was like it was it could be a fellow it could be. Macbeth could be completely focused on. How rage destroys a person right? There was no prison sequence. That's amazing there was flashbacks to a lurid image of him being slammed against the wall and rape. That's it there was not one bit in David's original script was about the nature of what had transpired in the prison isn't that had changed him and we sat down and everything he's the best. David is the best and he when we talked for a long time. About all these things he lit lit up and he was like. Oh my God dude. Like let's fucking go. Let's go and and he said to me he was like let's tear this thing apart. Helped me out. I WANNA make it I want to do with you Blah Blah Blah any said just one thing is this is my first script. It's really important to me. It's a career making moment for me. Whatever we do I don't care he goes right? Do whatever I need this. You know this is my script script and I was like and I literally put my hand out like dude done right. I corps all I want to. Let's do much done. We worked for like months and months and months together every day. Him Writing me writing doing these things we worked on that and turned it into into the thing we wanted to do right. Yes we wanted to do. I would no more betray David like the rules of engagement. I live with us. I want to say on ranters remember you literally said I remember. We're standing outside the country club. Were that first scene with with you and Matt in that Long Long Crescent shaped drive within and you said if I think I can find something. Funnier I'M GONNA try to say if you guys want me to go back to the script I'll go back the script. Whatever and it was like hey and like I say I think there are? There are five or six lines in the movie that I know David and I'm so fucking happy that during the movie and then the rest of it is exactly the script that we wrote and but but the thing is the thing is that that's unfamiliar. New Line. They we we. We started making a movie with Tony. Tony told me Tony told me in David I have no. I have no experience with narrative literally whatsoever. He said I'm I I understand the moment. He say things like I'm a photographer injured in a moment and he was like he used to say I leave that to you guys. I leave that to you guys. He goes I think this is fantastic. I know what to do with this. And for all of Tony's like what does he did he had he had a great. You know he's amazing for as great. I a great sense of things. He wanted to use the photo. Sonic cameras on the turn. He had he has like amazing visual instincts right and but it was to such a degree that found that he he would pull up he would pull up in his car and take. What are we doing today? And we would say it's the scene at the table with Beverly Dangelo and Elliott Gould. Right Edward if rehearse is it for a while to get it all together when you're already call me right and then he would go do phone calls and I would rehearse essentially like act like director actor rehearse the scene and then we go get Tony and Tony would watch it like an audience and then he would go right. Great Amazing Amazing. Don't anybody move. And he would run around setup lights put the camera on his shoulder and shirt and shoot it and we would go and this was obviously unorthodox and we were all young and I remember thinking well this is great. We're we're all a team where we're this is David. Nye are working the script. I'm sort of handling the wishing that staging of it. Tony's shooting it but Tony was. I could Tony Throughout and on into the editing. He was a person of great emotion and on many occasions he wept like would he would break down in tears and he would give me a hug and say I have never been this supported I have never had and if I can just I just wanted to. I've never had a Collab- I've never we're been supported. I just want to jump a slightly ahead because we have to end soon and I just want to say I'm going to deep into this. No no you're not because here's I want to jump ahead because I saw saw the cut that you had to work from I because I was there I wanted to say like the thing about the rap about you in this way and again as someone who's made movies movies with you and then been around a bunch of them like the cut that exists of American history. X is because because of what you did in the editing room and I know that not because you told me but because I watched you showed me the cuts that existed before and the cut that you not in order to just say because I had objective but also people don't understand like Tony had a commercial editor. Who did this really Gonzo cut? Nobody could make heads or tails of it. Tony got a little insecure. Whatever Tony went off to shoot a commercial it literally in the middle of the whole thing? The whole thing was sort of flatlined literally. No one knew what to do and and I got on the phones and called around. I didn't go in and and cut it. I I went in I went in. I did some stuff to reassemble reassemble stuff. They're trying to into a more full throated away. That it's almost like a script assembling trait just so that an editor would know what we had to work with. And I went went and I got Jerry Greenberg. Who won the Oscar for the French connection Kramer versus Kramer Apocalypse? Now that literally those are his credits. I got that guy to come in and and work on the movie with me and Tony many times in the course of that process Tony wept and said to me like you know like I've never been so supported and everything and I had great love for the guy like he was a very. He's a very eclectic figure and everything but we serving your I just WANNA say watching it it all you wanted. I remember you show David me that original cut and then later cuts and you're like tell me like you were so open. Yes it being told. Here's what we're GONNA so we went through this whole thing and everything. Tony went through Tony went through a struggle to make a thing. Go he he and he and by the way I am. I'm not saying that critically but it's also other things people. It's like what has happened since then. How many how many films has Tony completed since then none and I think he's a great artist? I actually really really do. I think he's a Gr like a great conceptual artist and a great thing. I witnessed him go through a personal struggle to complete a thing of course to complete a thing to let it go these extraordinary talent. He captured that. That's a really incredible. And what happened to save. What's happened is not not an argument between me and Tony? What happened is Tony? In my opinion he's struggled to let it go. He struggled to do what. Frances Coppola says an abandoned abandoned. Your film like don't you don't finish it. You abandon it. Coppola still recording apocalypse. Forty years later and I will literally watched Tony go through at the exact moment that people after thirteen months of post that Mike Deluca in Bob Shaye went guys. It worth it. Congratulations what a visceral thing. And I literally watched it dropped through. Tony o'malley God this. This it's over. This is over and he kind of lost his mind a little bit like he didn't want to let it go and I and I I sympathized list but in the end the the argument that developed such as it was. Actually I think it was just a person acting out sort of flailing a about confronting the logistical realities of how long you can work on a thing and having to let it go and and it actually initially was was kind of this. Data is provocation between him in the studio that I literally I could point to the single article in entertainment weekly clearly the the tagged me with it and from there forward. Is this whole story. This whole on. regattas door hell it in the way that it was like but to me. There's there's a thing in that that's that's interesting. which is we weren't in the Click Bait World Than Yup but we are in this world? We're in a world today. Where where where there's only been since then an intensification of of reductive ISM right? We we reduce. We always reduced things but two things have happened. One is there is in our culture horribly. There's this people like to create narratives of antagonism they liked to create narratives antagonism. And I talked about this the New York Times when I talked about it. But the the Russian the Russian military intelligence units of the GRU are literally working to foment don't conflict in America that is now documented fact. It's in the Miller report we have we have people outside our country working to destabilize. Our country by intensifying social conflict. Okay it is literally like spectre in James Bond. Just just so discord right but we also have These new economies of online advertising that have led to a Click Bait Click bait journalism which is literally. What words can we put together? That will make a person click on spike your blood pressure so it's like the tabloids on crack right and what and what gets done out of that. Is that like if Martin Scorsese says says something that as a man in his seventies with a full career he. He says something that he's every right to say and it gets reduced post to an assault literally like they they they make it like one of our great elder statesmen and philosophers about film. Film has literally balled up his fists in Punch someone in the face and it's just it's grotesque it's really grotesque it's really it's grotesque to due to to create conflict where it doesn't exist for the purpose of getting people to hit on things and punch comes through in read so that you can run ads but people have got to realize like people even people in our industry. I think people have to realize like we're being manipulated added. We're being manipulated. All the time into believing that that fights exit that there fights all over the place where there. Aren't you know what I mean. I'm and this is why and I'm going to end here. You're right about fight club. All along. That Fight Club was a movie that people needed to see and understand because it presaged the whole culture. It really did in many ways. PRE-STAGE the culture and I will say the first time I saw fight club. I didn't get it at all and as we do each other. I told you the truth. And you're like you're wrong. I fully remember. You're going you're wrong and and then see. I didn't even remember what you were saying. When you say you're right like I Yeah because then a year later I saw it again and I was like Oh my God is the best movie of All Times that does happen before we started this and this is where I want to end Edward because we before we started this you and I were talking about sort of about motherless Brooklyn and and about the business realities or something like that and what I was about to say but I wanted to hold for now is the one thing that's really occurred to me By doing this for so long. Is that what the game. You're playing isn't about what people think of your movie today. It's about about what this work means. And the way in which this works GonNa be related to years later because if I think about fight club if I think about rounders if I think about about American history x but I think about so many things you've done they over time your instinct for what is capturing a moment in time that that might be recognized in its time but that comes to be recognized. It's pretty unerring. And and that's why I think you're one of the great movie artists of our time. Well thank you I. I will say that I think To claim that's by design though is not true. No no no not by yeah. People People texting people externally assess like careers. And then it's almost like they take the data points they impose a shape on the more narrow humans. We have to order things that happened but they but they but I think that I think I tend to get interested in things that I find provocative intellectually or spiritually or whatever or or the like I feel resonate with the moment. I've definitely it's produced. I can't lie and say it doesn't produce. There's an emotional Beta in it. Of course because you invest very heavily in with the conviction that the inch the the thing has a weight and a even in entertainment value and then there does seem to me to be a pattern of like you know things the things that have a lot of complexity and a lot of sustaining power. And everything don't necessarily our Tuft distill surly connect right away. There's some of the toughest ones to market and they don't end and you can be as thick skinned as you want but as a human being with a brain in ego that lives in the Matrix of an industry that measures ashort term success Financial Success You you you. You're subjecting yourself to this constant process of like do you know 'cause it's funny I mean I've done films that did really well. Even films like the illusionist that didn't make one hundred million dollars majored hundred worldwide. We made the movie so cheap that it was it was a big hit race an anti some great when when when Grand Budapest has pops off and it's like you know of course West is biggest. That's always nice and you know Birdman is a weird weird movie really weird movie not a highly highly accessible mainstream movie and it broke. It broke through enough not crazy. It made fifty million bucks in the US but at one best picture any did well it. It ended up being as weird movie as ever made a dime of profit right. And and that's that's nice when when those things happen but like allow the ones in the stack up of films I've done that. Generally make the top of the list whether it's clever twenty fifth hour or whatever they N- not not only were in like words Matrix Even the weren't financially successful and and it all it always stinks. You know it always like now. You can't can't help it like it. It's not to sit to act like you know I'd like to. I'd like to think like Bob Dylan doesn't care ever about what was successful in the pop matrix in the course of his career. I wonder if I wonder if you know over the course of career he he had his moments of just going like I know I'm relevant or I know I'm admired but God damn look at what's making money these days like you know what I mean. Of course no. Because he's he's well disciplined artists who who holds himself close he holds of course of course. Of course it's going to hurt and sort of wrap it up. I'm GonNa say this since these things can unhurt. Go See motherless Brooklyn. Don't hurt Edwards feelings goes. It's a great movie. It's really worth your time. Go to the movie theater. So that more movies like this get made aide as these ghosts and Edward. Thank you for giving me one of the most special dinners. I've ever had in my life last night. When you Bruce Springsteen I won't say anything else about it but the fact at that happened and was a surprise was like the greatest thing of all time and folks Ed you you you you you you were very you kept yourself? I can't say it was very very hard and the no no no just when when it was over I did go home and I was like I actually got through that I thank you thank you for that. It was amazing and motherless Brooklyn is fantastic and everyone should go see it. Edward is on twitter there. He will tweet sometimes. Are you on instagram now. Yeah I I hardly I I confess to just using these things in a very Lazy Z.. Task that's fine. But he's there on twitter. You can find me up Ryan Kaufman. You can even leave the moment k.. At Jim L.. Dot Com. Thanks a lot for listening. Everybody Cenex Time Yeah.