"Stone-Cold Narcissist"


You know, people say necessity is the mother of invention. But that's not always true. Sometimes the mother of invention is advertising. Yeah. Or pure accident. How about ego maniacal delusion? Absolutely. Or just a desperate longing. To be cool. I'm Robert lamb, and I'm Joe McCormick. You're the host of the science podcasts stuff to blow your mind. And now we're branching off into the exploration of invention. Invention is the story of human history told one piece of technology at a time the things we made and how they made us invention publishes every Monday, listen and subscribe to invention on apple podcasts the iheartradio app or wherever you find your podcasts. There were multiple times. The search parties came here and scoured bluffs with fancy helicopters and airplanes and boats and everything else. But in the end, what really was was ocean stirring things up and coming down again, and then diligent people looking knowing that I know of witness the accident. That's that's the word every time. I go by there. I think those poor kids. It's the part about those kids losing their life that I think of. Because even though all of it and all the search and rescue and all the people who came here. What I remember is because I'm a father, the most important thing is that those kids don't go home, and they don't have a life. So I don't know what happened. But I know that that's the end result of all of it. Valentine HALE also known as how he's the owner of vows towing and the west port community store, which is the social hub of the town where the hearts died. He had a bird's eye view of what happened in the aftermath of the crash. It turns out just seen. And I weren't the only ones who couldn't stop thinking about this case people from his far away as Italy and Australia wondered what had happened to the hearts and were worried about Hannah and devante whose whereabouts were still unknown. But in January two thousand nineteen almost ten months after the crash officials announced that foot discovered near the crash site belong to Hannah. Devante body has not been found from glamour and how stuff works. This is broken hearts. I'm Liz Egan. And I'm Justin Harman, our focus was on finding the kids because we mainstream media did not seem interested. And there wasn't a lot of articles about it. And I thought how can they just be written? That's atlas who started a Facebook group called finding the missing heart children and honoring the heart children back in April, the heart story piqued her interest. Mostly because she felt there wasn't enough urgency to the search for the missing kids. Amy's group now has two hundred seventy four members. There are other groups so many others heart family case discussion, which has one thousand four hundred eleven members heart family case discussion this time in all caps with one hundred seventy members what happened to the hearts their history. The crash the kids four hundred ninety members heart family crash theories one hundred one members and let the heart shine. A two hundred twenty three member closed group for people who quote, loved new or were connected to the Hart family in some way in order to get into this one. You have to explain how you knew the hearts Lauren and Liz tried and failed. Apparently, it wasn't enough to have examined every photo read every article and even taken a virtual tour of their house via an old real estate listing. Because no matter how much we felt like we knew the hearts, we didn't actually know them at all. Laughed spring. I joined to Facebook groups at the time they were at peak activity, but conversation in both. Forums remains busy to this day with dozens of comments following each picture or post in both groups there's a lot of discussion about adoption about Jenin Sarah's history of child abuse about whether or not they were racist and about whether or not the drive over the cliff was premeditated. Or spontaneous did Sarah know what John was planning to do was one of them terminally. Ill members even reached out to the dekalb's about organizing a search party. They debated about the hearts financial situation, their clothing, their smiles their sleeping arrangements, the contents of their refrigerator their decor. And even why Jenin Sarah let their chickens roam free in the house. For months, I read every post and all the comments in both groups, I was the quintessential lurker never contributing to the conversation myself, but still going numb while I poured over pictures of the hearts in happier times. There are a lot of disagreements in the heart. Facebook groups several women, and they're almost all women as far as I can tell our members in other groups too and tensions rise when a member of one group share secrets with another group and were trickles back to the original group. There's discussion about who's racist and classicist and who's not and who's even entitled to level this charge in the first place. The groups are pretty diverse both racially NGO graphically, the most incendiary debate arises again, and again, and again in the conversation goes on and on and on when someone suggests they might feel a shred of sympathy for Jenin, Sarah, these people are swiftly attacked flamed to the point of. Being charbroiled the prevailing senses, the heart moms were monsters, and if you don't agree you should go. Start your own discussion group for friends of mass murderers as much as I wonder why Jen kept her foot on the gas. I also wonder what drives someone to invest so much time interacting with complete strangers online seven months after the accident before Hannah's foot was positively identified. I decided to check in with Amy atlas to find out. The group is called finding the missing heart children and honoring the heart children. The short term goal were to find Sierra. Devante an Hannah. Now, Dan Hannah sincere has been found and also honoring all the children for the abuse and doored, and so that they did not die in vain through longer term solutions, such as you know, homeschool regulations or up shin reform, I think that at maximum capacity who probably had maybe it was five hundred people. We asked people what their skills were from, you know, being the grant writer, a lawyer somebody who's worked in the legislature to somebody's who's worked in social services community. You name it we asked what people skills were. And or courting to that. We would assign people different responsibilities at the peak level. I would absolutely say, you know, myself and a few others who are working on this twenty hours a day. So we were sleeping for hours. And we were doing this fulltime twenty hours a day. That is a serious commitment for someone with a family a career a life. Amy is a mom of two and a cookbook author who happens to have lottery there really were only about four hundred that were in the core group like stand up twenty hours a day. Yeah. Then there was probably. Group of you know, fifteen people that had like a real interest in helping we were calling all of the counties every single day to all different county sheriff to find out what was happening with the search. That was all the counties that Jennifer and Sarah, drove through and Washington and Oregon and California from calling their cue have correspondence with the FBI. We also tried to organize peaceful protests and also create media awareness of story didn't die. We created flyers for them and put them all over everywhere. We could on the web from Facebook pages to emailing different influencers at them out. We'd also Email their flyers to missing person organization aurthorities and kind of like missing person in the big Asian mostly. It was an online effort. We try to make an effort where we would go. Oh, so the west coast when they're what interest. Fortunately, I was ready to go out there, even when we gave it a the FBI they reach back out to until we sent an Email to the press person for the FBI. It's I think it was six days for somebody to get back to us which I thought was rather alarming since it was still very much. A case seem like they were looking into and it was a dictated phone line. Four hips. The FBI still has a site soliciting information about the heart crash and the messaging on their includes warning that tips may not be fold up on. But still Amy was frustrated. And when you're putting that kind of time in it just was frankly disgusting because if like wow their lives were race when they were living and now it's so easy to raise them when they're not alive. How would you react? If you found out your sister, or friend was investing twenty hours a day in trying to solve a crime that happened in a faraway state. Eight involving strangers. I asked Amy what people in her life had to say about it. And how she knew when it was time to dial back her time in the group their reaction from the people that I spoke with that were off line was neck, first of all some people hadn't even heard about the case. And then I sent them more information about it. And they couldn't believe that. It wasn't something that they had heard about or they had recalled seeing a headline of family grabs off of a cliff, but didn't have all the information. But then the people that did know about the case a little more. It was a combination of. Wow. This is so wonderful that you doing this. And then there were people like, well, why you doing this? But I I would say I had large more people thought. Well, it's so great that somebody is doing something sleuth groups often pop up after an especially grisly crime possibly as a receptacle for all the emotion sparked by tragedy, but there's a certain poetic Justice to the hearts immortals Asian on Facebook. Considering it was jen's preferred mode of communication, and in recent months, we've uncovered another world where she was equally entrenched. Jen was an avid video gamer the name of her game of choice. Ironically enough was Oz. Broken kingdom. She played for hours on end while Sarah was at work that makes plain white devante till Dana DeKalb that his mom's weren't really paying attention to what went on at home. Jen was a guild leader, which is kind of like being a team captain. And she kept meticulous handwritten notes of her players moves investigators fem pages and pages of them when she died. Do you know what I love meeting friends after work at a local brewery, maybe gathering around an old barrel or something sipping a well-crafted juicy IP while discussing personal finance, Matt, buddy. You're totally speaking my language, except I'm pretty sure most peeps in this scenario aren't talking about money with their friends because that's a super topic. Why does everyone make it so weird, dude? I know right. It doesn't have to be that awkward, and we'd like to talk about personal finance, especially weekly in my dining room over a craft beer on our podcast how to money whether we're talking about ways to cut your grocery Bill creating side hustles or traveling the world on less. We're having conversations about personal finance and how it relates to normal people who want to enjoy life in also be money smart. That's right. We're all about making these topics relatable and enjoyable, so it's something you'll want to talk about the next time you meet up for drinks. So if you wanna level up your personal finance game. Then be sure to listen and subscribe on apple podcasts, the heart radio app, or wherever you get your podcast. Just. Search for how to money. We're about to hear from drew who knew Jen through the gaming world. He asked us not to use his last name. If my employer knew the amount of hours dedicated to gaming would be fired to gen when they were both playing Oz and ended up in the same clan. If you're a gaming novice like us. You might be wondering what in the world. This means are living offers social components at least the best games do and to foster the social environment. They've created these entities called clients and usually clans consist of about fifty people and you join the clan, and then you compete against everyone else and enjoying clan. Benefit, you gain of courses, obviously, the social opponent in order to keep you hooked gaming developers understand they have to foster that social environment. So what they'll do is offer you. Rewards in game for being part of a clan in so to put it simply if you're highly competitive, and you also happen to like people on any level than you will definitely join a choir because it's the only way to really win. Jen was a co leader of the clan that I happened upon and she was good. Bye good. I mean, she developed relationships very quickly with people with all Clinton members. You've got to know them on a personal level talking to people making sure everyone's good and Jin really signed. When there was a newcomer. If someone didn't know how to conquer a particular part of the game that was her wheelhouse. She loved the. The bird with the broken wing became a part of the leadership board for for that clan Witten, and we would have conference calls on a fairly regular basis where we would just touch upon gaming concepts on a weekly basis. You know, we would strategize. Jen's clan was called dropping houses inter screening was simply heart. There were a bunch of different characters. You could choose from hers was the tin, man. Remember, the tinman was the one who went down the yellow brick road in search of a heart. Drew says it isn't unusual for player to spend twelve to fourteen hours a day building character. There's opportunities in these games where you could have endless hours of intense concentration. There would definitely be weeks where I mean, just by her rank it was clear that she had spent a ridiculous number of of ours. Drew describes Janice highly competitive another game. Where we spoke to called her a stone cold narcissist because she kept her clan. Members on such a tight leash bossing them around at all hours of the day. It was common for Jen to sit near the top of the rankings. Not just the clan rankings, but the individual ones, which is a bigger deal team members teased her about how she was the first to crack a really complex part of the game drew told her she must have developed a diagram to figure it out. In fact, she had sometime in the summer of two thousand seventeen Jen abruptly left the game claiming she wanted to spend more time with her kids drew believes her hasty departure was because of a conflict with a fellow gamer who she believed was cheating. Jen refused to continue on if he stayed in the clan. And when he didn't leave she signed off the chat with a picture of her kids at the beach would consistent with show photos of her with her kids in the woods, all at the beach. Sure where. Trevor in clan chat talk about these escapades that they've gone on. Or they are planning. She taught. And about the fact that they were adopted but far more than that even just the amount of oppression that she experiences because she is the mother of black children Jenin drew spent hours chatting about everything the game holiday picks their families. But he says there was one subject that never came up. Sarah. She never once I'm talking like six months of consistent talking. She never once mentioned her wife Sarah in personal communication with me or in clench. She never mentioned her sexual orientation to me. For whatever reason drew happened to check in with Jen shortly before she died, we had both left the game talked to several months, and I just reached out to say, hey, see how things were going in that conversation. We got around to talking about a real life personas a little more once again sided scenario where she was oppressed shipping, grocery shopping with the kids and person in lying gave her a nasty look because of what she believes she believes it was because of the color of her kids skin. She illustrated that in far more words, but that was the basic gist of it, and I really did sympathize with her like. I wanted. It was clear that because she talked about these scenarios so often like it was pretty clear that she was being hyperbolic, but Jim was a such a fun personality. You couldn't help give her the benefit of a doubt. Some like this is absurd. I can't believe you're in doing this again in retrospect, I'm convinced that almost none of it actually happened. And that I guess I should preface this by saying I've never met anyone like, Jen. I think she became so fixated on this persona that she really did become convinced himself, and you know, when she's following these statements up with these. These photos of her precious children. I mean, it just. It pulls the strings Jrue has five young kids. So he and Jen bonded about the challenges of living in a crowded house. Her message to him enjoy it while it lasts. He says he got the impression that she missed being able to control her kids who doesn't when they have teenagers. We wondered did she ever talk about her kids being delayed the way she communicated it to me was more focused on the idea that they were developmentally delayed win she adopted them. But thanks to her efforts. They've come so far. They're different people better people, of course, the bird with the broken wing. This sounds like the gen we've come to know we wondered if Jen talked about the kids futures withdrew never never wants to read. Now that she was reportedly depriving them of food like it is in fury. Rating not just to me, but all of us who spent so much time on line with her because we can't help. But think that the hours that she was devoting to us and to our clan into our game the money that she was devoting to the game should've it should've gone the children when I realized that she was a home school on like fish, no way in hell. Those kids are learning. I mean, really it's impossible with the amount of time. She spent on this game and with with the gaming community. It's impossible that six kids could be learning like many people who thought they knew Jen heart drew has really struggled to figure out why she did what she did her life had become wrapped up in this image that she so carefully. Crafted this image of her as this doting, mom and champion of racial reconciliation her life. Had become so identified she'd at dinovite herself by this. 'cause if you will that when she came to grips with the fact that it was all going to fall apart strangely enough. I think she took the same approach that she took with that guy in the game. It was like, okay. It's either him or me. But in this case, it's it's all of us either. I get to maintain my image. My my preferred image or none of us get to maintain anything at all drew also points a finger at video games, which give players a quick hit of dopamine. They come to crave. He describes this phenomenon as quote an analyst rewards based experience. I think about the Vegas shooter in his motive has been so elusive, Hugh spending even more absurd hours and money pulling this random number generators seeking these flashing lights this dopamine hit. And I think in my experience, the more I played the less impressive real the real world proved to be I have been described. I hope in some sense justifiably as like a pretty great dad like a very involved at a really do take my kids, my wife, and I both are very active with our children. We love to go hiking love to play sports. I mean, the list goes on and on. But it's strange like the more. I played the more in depth. I got into the game the gaming experience the less interested. I was playing catch with my son. The lest interested I was in spending time with my wife, and I really like her. I really do. Great. But. Was a dictated truly addicted to these the highs of the game provided and then on top of that. I didn't wanna let my clam mates down a wanted to win didn't wanna let Jin down when real life gets more stressful. His win the temptation to escape into his alternative live becomes stronger. The game is not the call. I think the game just creates conditions that perhaps contribute to acts like Dr crash or the Vegas shooting. I'm Ariel Casten. I'm Jonathan Strickland and together we're going to tell you the stories behind some of the biggest triumphs in failures and business. That's right. We're going to explore situations that tested the medal of entrepreneurs pivotal moments required making decisions we'll be talking about some big companies that everybody knows like Disney LEGO and Harley Davidson together, we try to answer the question. What do you do when you find yourself at the brink? Listen in scribe at apple podcasts or on the iheartradio app or wherever you listen to your podcasts. So maybe Jen was running away from her real life from her six growing kids who had little to no education and uncertain futures into the arms of Facebook in video games. It's sad. If you think about it. Of course, you wish someone had heeded the calls if the kids, but you also wish Jen had gotten some help let someone come into the house and keep her company taking a walk with a friend talk to therapist joined a support group for adoptive. Parents would any of this have made a difference. The source close to the family agrees the gen needed help. This person says I think that this whole thing comes down to she was always trying to fix everybody else and make herself look good. When in fact, she was the one who needed the help. Of course, all of this begs the question where was Sarah of all the people we've spoken to her Kohl's colleague, Cheryl heart is the one who knew Sarah best. She said that they used to just always go out go to concerts. They would go to shows. And and Jen was always really happy all the time in Stephan in now, Jen was just really closed off chiefs tired our time when she had migraines. When Cheryl would press for details about medications, Jen might try or whether or not she was seeing a doctor Sarraj shutdown the conversation, she'd get personal, but only to an extent and won't Sarah was willing to acknowledge that Jen might be suffering from depression. She definitely didn't wanna get into specifics. Other details Cheryl remembers the heart set of family library. But the kids were only allowed to check out two books at a time. Jen never slept in a bed. She always fell asleep on the couch in front of the TV. She also wouldn't let Sarah wear her hair and opponent till none of this paint support of the happiest marriage. Jen had some sort of online game that she ran. Through Facebook that was her escape ever since kinda like the whole thing went viral with devante. Yeah. She didn't wanna do the trips or the concerts or any of that stuff. So she trying to the virtual world 'cause she did. Call the store one morning. It was before we had opened. So the call came to my desk. I I'd answered the phone, and it was a woman on the other end they had asked to speak with Sarah heart, my place on hold on. I told sir was for her and Sarah had gone into a complete panic. And she had gone into an office in shut the door. And she came out about her about ten ten to twelve minutes later, and she had told us that it was Jen. It was on the phone, and she was upset with her because Sarah had not done her part of that game or the day studying up something and Jen was really upset because it was really important that Sarah, do whatever it was. She was supposed to do for that game. Choose really she had told Sarah that that was her only out was her only reason for living. There was no if she wasn't going to help her through that. There was no reason for her to exist anymore. Just kind of gave me this look like of kind of like fear, and I remember making this comment. Like, you're like an abused wife. And she just kinda gave me this look like, no kidding. And it just kinda kinda like the whole tone kinda change doctor that it was just like, okay? Something's not right. Would Cheryl have responded differently. If Sarah had described this kind of controlling behavior coming from a man now, it's like, oh, well, your lesbians, you guys can do whatever you want. And then you try not to delve into their hersal relationship. You don't know what boundaries you can trust? Cheryl says Sarah was very open about her marriage to Jen. She didn't try to hide the fact that she was married to a woman. In fact, she says Sarah, probably used the word wife a hundred times a day to the point where other colleagues teased her about it. She could never say, Jen. It was always my wife. My wife, my wife, and that was like she rarely ever called her by name. We just thought it was funny because it's like I didn't around it. My husband this. My husband that Cheryl says Sarah talked about what it was like to work long hours, and then go home and take over from gen who'd been alone with the kids all day, Cheryl got the impression that Sarah. Did most of the cooking Sarah was also open about the pressure of being the breadwinner. She carried most of the credit card debt, which Sheryl says was the result of everyday expenses and home renovations. Sarah's unpaid balance was over fourteen thousand dollars as of March two thousand eighteen and jen's was about two thousand dollars. According to a report released after their death. Not astronaut, Michael. But enough to keep you up at night. If you're supporting a family of eight on forty five thousand a year, and you're to lose your monthly stipends for kids at a foster care Sarah made a payment to her discover card early on the morning of the crash, which suggests she didn't know what was going to happen later. The payment also could have been an automatic one. Some Facebook sluice speculate that the hearts decided to end it all because of their debt, but while fourteen thousand dollars is no joke. The Bank wasn't for closing on their home. And it doesn't seem so insurmountable. The Chen would kill the whole family. Another persistent theory that one of the heart moms was terminally ill in a Facebook status update. Jen vaguely blames health issues for months long hiatus, but nothing in our interviews and the hearts emails and paperwork points to any kind of physical illness. It doesn't seem like such a big leap to say gem suffered from depression. She was isolated she had removed herself from real life. She didn't have a strong support network. No family nearby or in the flesh friends. She saw regularly. Seven months after the hearts died. Lauren smiley made a trip to Mendocino county to talk with sheriff Tom Allman who has been leading the investigations and stay one. He was at the scene of the crash hours after it happened and has returned countless times since here's Lauren I stopped by the Mendocino county sheriff's office on my drive up from San Francisco to the cliff. The office is on the edge of the county seat town of ukiah right next to the jail medicine county is known for redwoods, marijuana farms and on Spiring coastline almond has been the sheriff coroner here for more than a decade. He looks like the sheriff from the movies white fishermen mustache, really ready skin a bust of George Washington sits behind his desk. His start helmet from his time as villian peacekeeper in late nineties Kozovo sits on a shelf. My name is Tom almond. I'm the sheriff of Minnesota county, and I've been sheriff three term up Stormin for. Term worked for the county since eighty five. Listen, I'm not going to downplay the super sleuths because we got good information from people who found good information. And so law enforcement would be full hearty to say. Oh, no. This is our job go away. We're actually sluice to you know, we can think of these things in we we work with chemists and the fringing labs, and it fashioned police were saying, you know, who done it. How can we all this prime? We are following leads. And we're not putting up press releases of of new shock information that we find to satisfy some sluice. Sheriff elemental does something we hadn't heard before that. There was a group of friends and acquaintances of the heart who came from his far away as Minnesota to help the search efforts. They used the bluff where the family died as their Homebase does movement were camped at that all out for reminds former they'd walk the beach. That's how the one gentleman from back east was walking the beach each morning, he found the one body, and and then the people who found the foot in pants leg earned it over to him, and he turned over. Hi, paul. Give us the body. Sheriff almond is referring to is Sierra heart who was found two weeks after the accident you remember she was the twelve year old baby of the family. She was small and spunky and loved music and animals the foot sheriff almond mentions was Hannah's. She was the one who jumped out of her bedroom window in the middle of the night. One of the friends who came out to help with the search was a man named AJ. He drove all the way from Minnesota shortly after the family died. And stayed until the beginning of June. We weren't able to connect with AJ directly. He didn't respond to messages, but Lauren chatted with how hill a local resident who got to know pretty well here. She is to set the scene. As you drive through the tiny town of Westport on highway one you'll see an all wood building with a Pepsi sign in one gas pump. That's bell store. The highway sign of announcing the town says there's two hundred ninety nine residents, but local say only fifty actually live here. Fulltime in all seem to know. How people kept telling me to go there and inside there's a small deli with the menu written on chalkboards and rows of groceries like wine cooking oil toilet, paper, despair. Residents the half hour trip south to the bigger town of Fort Bragg, locals pin notices on an announcement board outside. Handyman for hire a support group for people with depression. Val has lived in Westport since nineteen eighty he took over the store from his mom last year. Everybody knows AJ very nice, man. The super dedicated even law enforcement was worried about how he was going above and beyond. And you know, he's just real nice fell on. And it gave you a different perspective to all the rumors and all the speculation and all the stuff, you know, because you basically have a tragic incident that looks almost like crime scene one's guilty until proven guilty. But there's all these regulations. So it was really hard. And then you get a face to some a friend of the family, and and it helped put a normal everyday thing for especially in this real small town AJ brought that to us. He was also, very polite. Very honest and just really wanted to get the bottom of thing. It wasn't really one way or the other. It was just wanting to find. And he did he did make a difference. Dow talked about how AJ walked out. On the cliffs so far out the fire chief was concerned. He wouldn't make it back before dark. I can't even magin how many miles he walked in those beaches and bluffs and drove around and sat on the who. With binoculars day after day after day after day after day. I mean, he was just a figure of our town for months, you know, once you become a part of a little community like this. It's not like Fox News where they come up and set up their stuff. And then, you know, go home, this was a whole different thing. And it was interesting. It was definitely nice to have like I said a human connection to something that seemed hard to put words with what he come into your store about every day. Not every day in the beginning. Yes. Every day and look for you know, have questions on what might be the word out on the street. So to speak. And then it came down to where it would be a few times a week towards the end. And what sort of tips did you share with him? Just the tips of the weather. Not what to look for the big tip for him was was when one of my guys that I grew up with on the part of said, you know, there's a certain way that the water currents work, and even though the winds blowing south where that incident happened we need to look north in the bay north and he did and he did and he did not play found stuff. He learned the tricks of the trade very quickly adapted himself. You haven't been to the ocean? You know, he didn't know about civic, and you know, you doubted any state dedicated and that when the key everything and that was the key to making. Maybe AJ had it, right? The key to making a difference is about actually showing up lacing a pair of boots and walking along the cliffs, rain or shine alone, or with other heart friends AJ did that he was at the place where his friends died and looked for them in real life. He didn't just click through pictures of them or sit in front of a computer thousand miles away. He didn't try to piece together. The clues from afar, then bounce ideas and hypotheses off strangers. Maybe the key to real friendship is being their in the flesh for better or worse in sickness and in health as Val said, some people look for crowds and some people look for lonely places. If we've learned one thing from the hearts this. There are lots of lonely places in the world. Too many. And once you've lost yourself in one of them or several as we believe Jen did it's really hard to find your way back. Next time on broken hearts. We people who are are abusive those inner kind lies, but also in their public lives, and we know this now not to be true. Coming up here. I felt like a sense dread. Origin quest is going to in my opinion, give evidence that will shock the consciousness of people who are falling his case. This will be a water cooler conversation throughout our nation. If you suspect to child is being abused. Call one eight hundred four a child that's one eight hundred numeral four A C H I L D or visit child help dot org to find out how to report your concerns. For access to exclusive photos and videos and documents about the case, visit glamour dot com slash broken hearts have questions for us about this podcast reaches on Twitter at glamour MAG or at broken hearts pot. If you like what you heard leave us a review broken hearts is a joint production between glamour and how stuff works with new episodes dropping every Tuesday broken hearts is co hosted and co written by Justin Harman and Elizabeth Egan and edited by Wendy uncle Lawrence. Miley is our field. Reporter Samantha berry is glamorous editor in chief. Julie Chen and Deanna buckman head up the business side of this partnership. Joyce piddle, Pat singer and Luke Zeleski our research team Jason Hoke is executive producer on behalf of how stuff works along with producers, Julian Weller, Ben key, brick and Josh state special. Thanks, jen. Lance. I'm Katie golden. I studied psychology and evolutionary biology at Harvard, and I pretend to be a bird on Twitter and my new podcast creature feature. We've you nature in man from a new perspective each episode asking comedian to get inside the minds of animals, so we can explore the startling connections to human psychology, you'll find blood bands and treachery that make game of thrones seemed like a dumb show for babies. Join us every Wednesday and subscribe on apple podcasts for on the iheartradio app or wherever you listen to podcasts.

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