Nicola Upson Josephine Tey Mysteries
Welcome to the joys of binge raiding the show for anyone who got to the individ great book and wanted to read the Knicks installment we interview successful series authors and recommend the beast, mystery suspense, historical and romance series. So you'll never be without a book. You can't put them. You find the show notes a free book and lots more information at the joys of binge reading dot com. And now is show. Absence. Joyce being taped mystery series began as research robo graffiti about a writer who kept tonight'd her. Nation and grew into the highly acclaimed longrunning mystery series, we know today seated on the life of one of literature's known. Hi there. I'm your host Jenny Wheeler and today Nikola talks about why is in a class of Ryan how the twenties and thirties still relevant the twenty teach women and her Cambridge radio shy. But before we get to knuckle just reminder that show nights. But this episode can be found on the weak side, the joys of binge reading dot com. That's where you'll find links to everything we talk about today, including how to Choon into nNcholas radio show and a picture of who took it of cat bitsy trot word and now his Nichola Halliday Nikola. Ron welcome to the show. It's great to have you with us. It's great to be hitting. I can't believe we actually so far apart. So this is lovely. I know technologies wondrous thing. I always do it's predictable. But I like to begin at the beginning with it once upon a time question once said, I am an puffins moment where you thought I've just got to write fiction. Oh, my life one be wants me to be. And so what was the catalyst for it? Well, I feel of it's fraudulence burns it generated because there wasn't that social moment. I to Josephine who obviously we all come talk about. But the series really began about twenty five years ago when I read her franchise, and I thought it was just an extraordinary novel. So different from any of the ones written, by contemporaries, am I wanted to find out more about her because as much as we analyze she has a wonderful characterization of brilliantly rich sense of place. But there was just the voice, you know, it it's less hard to quantify than those reasons. And I found out that she in her lifetime. Was known just as well. If not better as a playwright she had several hits on the the western stage one in particular Richard of border. And I thought it was very strange that somebody who had achieved as much as she had done in those two very different phys. Haven't had a full length biography written the bouncer. So that's what I set out to do. I'd only written on fiction up to that or done some journalism and an art book in affair book. And it was the table graffiti that I wanted to do. But as you probably know, she was very private woman. She wrote the competent her personal life up quite closely in cleverly behind her. And eventually the gaps became as intriguing as the facts, and it was actually my partner. Mandy who said to me one evening. We who in national holiday cottage on a beautiful corner. She state, and yes, we had had a gross of one or two and she said to me, oh for God's sake. Just make it up. And that really is is how the series stunted to tell a truthful picture of taste life through a series of fictional modem mysteries in the juror that we know in love her best for these days. So purely by accident to to answer your question, and if it weren't jersey in today, I don't know the out of written fiction at all that loan as quickly as I did. It's interesting that you really it seems came to truth through imagination rather than fact. Yes, I think I think that's true somebody who was complex and in some ways, contrary contradictory jobs being table is as you probably know Josephine Taylor isn't her real name her real name was Elizabeth McIntosh. But she also had another pseudonym, Gordon, David that she wrote plays in historical fiction on the and she often referred to herself as a chameleon a word. Appears quite often in letters with typical self awareness. I have to say and so for figuring like that who shapes and shifts reading her letters. I've done lots of research and read a lot of tastes letters, lots of letters that were written to her and about her, and she does indeed how different personalities depending on who. She was. I think we all do that to some extent we're all different people to a friend's into our family into strangers and professionally at work, but she did it to extremes. And she was also very good at being a bit of an outside with those wonderful vacations that people who love no her novels will recognize and so that made her a good fictional figure on a good detective, I suppose so you've got the fascinating series. Now, we Joyce the Fain appears Ezra. So in quite a lot of the events in the different books relate directly to her life ended truthfully occur. And then of course, some of it is is completely product of your imagination. You've now done Sieben compulsion books in the eighth one coming out in a couple of months, and you've mentioned that the first book that franchise affair was one that broke all the rules. Can you just explain little what those rules were? And how she brought them certainly out will for start the franchise fan older books like this, but some of them, but the franchise affair doesn't even have a murder at his heart, which most golden age most crime novels in do, you know, having written these books? I know how hard it is to keep up with the Spence in the interest of the reader without moving back on those conventions of the of the body very most confident, but she didn't she in nineteen forty eight published a book that was a sensitive about a young woman who had allegedly been kidnapped earned abused by two older women. In nineteen forty eight. That's quite strong dog stuff. I think that's one of the things I love about as that. She stays so relevant. And she has such a modern voice. Her hero. Robert blair. He was a comparison. The sitter, you know, he wasn't a super human amateur sleuth. He wasn't applauded policeman. He was just an ordinary man who was taken over by circumstances. And I think what's interesting about that book in particular is the on the one hand reading it now in modern times, it feels like a style GIC snapshot of an England that's gone for Avena. You pick it up a need feel the sun on your face is not warmed to it. But look below the surface. And it's a very don't book. It's a book about people being persecuted by the community is supposedly upon. So it's a book about more violence. It's book about prejudice and anger, and it's interesting having read it quite recently in a in a sort of post Brexit world here in Britain, it again, it has that kind of modern relevance in it reinvents it. So like it's off. I did. So I suppose that's what I mean. Really the golden age rule book the clones list of suspects. All those wonderful things. That are expertly done by lotta tastes contemporaries. She didn't feel the need to do that. An infact. Maybe if she hasn't had a a series inspector Alan grown who again. That's another thing. She does it regionally in the franchise affair. He turns up the wrong side of Justice. I mean, that's a great thing to do. But if those books haven't featured a series detective, maybe wouldn't necessarily think of the first full most crime novels, we think of them as psychological rebels, and I think keep did bridge the golden age and the contemporary in way that paved the way for people like Patricia Highsmith PD James rumble interesting as I hear you guys through my mind, but. She's also a main tool for you in your writing because you crime novels and exactly they not they not the standard crime novel. They definitely, you know, you don't have you don't have the country house everybody sitting around trying to solve the mood. But you do have a social group and social gatherings that kind of Meriva, but in a match more challenging way, do you have you taken her as as a mentor as well? I think she certainly a mental for any crime writer, really, I think she is foam Dermott offer referred to her as the crime writers crime rights on. I think that's Borey because she teaches note she she doesn't teach to be. Particularly brilliant mystery, Reuters, I would maybe this controversial I would say that her plots are not the best thing about high rising Attal, but she teaches to be brave. I think and the one thing that I would like to emulate her more than any other is the each book, the I right? I hope is different from all the others rather than sticking to one pass because she was very unpredictable writer, although she did have the series characters who reappeared every book that she wrote is different in some way, they have different feels different atmospheres. I hope that in not weigh my books might might any late hers. Also, I think she's a mentors as a as a woman in the person because I could hug her for living through the years that she lives through because those into war years, particularly for independent women liked to office nation to write bell through. And coming to these books with a strand of truth on history and social context to them has introduced me to so many people, but I wouldn't otherwise have known about. I mean, for example, it was resistible because Taylor had a film made by offered Hitchcock. It was inevitably caused in the ruins the I would write a book in fear in the sunlight that had a fictional meeting between today an Hitchcock, but if it won't for that, I would never really have known about alma revel. He's Wang was she she entered the film industry before he did. She was so influential he's work. And when we talk about a Hitchcock movie, actually, we're talking about a real partnership. I think one of the finest things about each coke is the way that he collaborated with an credited his wife, but so it's women like rowing Kate who started the miniature in Cooma where I said the book Mary size, who's the deputy governor of Holloway jail ended so much for. Additions in women's prisons. All these people take his open the door to man. I am I I'm very great. You mentioned the role of the position of women in nice in two years. And I'm just wondering wasn't partly that after they'd seen some. Emancipation during the first World War through very poor circumstances being forced into jobs because the main will intervene -able they were saying the strong drive to try and push them back into their place after the war ended and also the lack of men to marry as well, and quite so it changed social expectations lot others to the factors that you'd be revering, Jerry. Yeah. Definitely it's absolutely spot on. I think the first world will I it's hard. I think for us to even conceive of how seismic change that must've been people for some women. It was a time of great grief and great loss because as you. So rightly say, they lost husbands and lovers and brothers and sons, and the will was never the same again for some women, and I would strongly believe that Josephine today was one of these it was a moment of liberation because not only. Early were there, the the professional expectations had been moved on so greatly as as you just said, they did jobs that they would never have thought of doing in the book coming out is very much a book about that. But also socially remarkably emotionally their expectations with different tain. No longer had to face the off of marriage and children as automatically being inevitable for her which is a pass that. I don't think that she she would very happily with her. So it was it was a very very double edged sword on a great, great sadness. But great opportunities in great freedom as well. And I think when I came to these books I won in nineteen thirty four. I think I underestimated how much the shadows. Is that war would still be hanging over all the characters? I was writing about whether or not. Experience the wall directly it it really did those wars. So did meet in the middle. You know, the shadow of one and the looming prospect of another. Yeah. Yeah. You have referred to career as a playwright. And there is another very interesting into sation Near Net. Is that she helped launch suggestion Gail good into superstardom? I get that. He he was a major with speak to classical actor, but her play Richard of died catapulted him into a match more popular Statham, and you've talked with him and little about his association with the heavens jury. Yes, I think again, the war is part responsible for the huge successive. Not Richard aboard. Oh play. It was a modern reworking of Richard the second. It was she says herself in in a letter to a friend. She thought she'd written tale a bloody revenge in action she'd written the about. Vision. And I think it just completely hit the moment and Gilbert was huge loss in. He was a Shakespearean. Classic renter. Directed Richard Bordeaux's as one of starred in it. But this play was just Anaya worked myself. So I know you don't get moments like that invinci- people went thirty forty fifty times to sit. It look lots of the cost on wood wood so wealthy author that they country. Go to Gil good included on the on the sofa guess exporters. And I remember PD James telling me how as a young girl she was so cross because she couldn't afford the train ticket to go to London and see the play the everybody was talking about. So it really was a unique moments of the article history. And I think because it wouldn't have that wonderful elegant designed by motley the trio stage in costume designers. Everything about it was just spots on. I think that that reason because it was of its moment. Her plays haven't lost it in dated as well as fiction has. But that's not to decry how popular and successful. They were at the time. So am I right in human that she was vantage, Yvonne, she she deliberately write a play, which she imagined from the beginning suggestion would start and and then she pitched it to him. Now that seems to me to take quite a lot of Odessa Turkey is that the right way to frame it was that how? Had happened. I guess it was that's what he told me what he's written in. He's accounts of how play came about. And it I think it was a huge amount of Odessa Turkey unnerve and confidence in the work. He also talked a lot about how he when she first sent it to him. It wasn't really in the full that was performed as it was. And he suggested amendments or cuts with changes, and he didn't really expect to hear back. But she did she made those changes absolutely Gisha ply-. An of course, the rest is history. It's interesting. I think one of the things that shows while quickly she came on Oeste is she didn't really have a huge impact in the rehearsals and staging of the play that was very much beer goods thing. But by the time, you get to another play of hers cooled off in women, which also was on the West End, and it will anywhere near the success. But it was loosely based on the the scope to Guardia brush and. He visit this brilliant. This is in the collection at the British library where she is rising to Gail good telling him really, effectively she doesn't think you'll be quite right for that part. Almost one djing him to be good enough for that thought. Shows that shows how much she came on. And I think really that fees arrogance about her work that confidence about her work is one of the things I love about because she was done. Roy is good work and a new C that does this touching things about it. Like, she she talks about seeing the franchise affair in. I think it was the franchise of in the times book club window, it giving the same feeling of joy and elation as saying Richard aboard. Oh, go up in lights at the new to. This those bits that we will feel as rice as the excitement when we kind of can have enough to to see all work being appreciated. But there was always this fierce belief in historic gonna let her 'cause she rises somebody just before the door of time came out and says that she really does think it something genuinely new within the euro, which close it was we we lots of both. Detectives. Holed up in bed Sovan crunch, the bedside since then, but she was the first to do it with girl. And so yeah, no of pluck confidence in her own ability. I think they're all things that we associate with them and we'd come from because there's not a not in her background there. I mean, I must admit that. When I started reading you. I haven't read any tie that as the confession. But when I started reading you I did refer to a couple of the cable phase. And there isn't a lot in her family background that would indicate that she would have that sort of it must've been totally inborn don't you think? I think so I think mother was a huge influence on her arm. Murga was a teacher as well. A I think they were very very close. I think mother's early death was a great tragedy in her life. Think she came from a different social background to taste for. Other. I think certainly I think she would've appreciated very greatly. What had daughter went on to do? And I think take would say that she was perhaps an inspiration in that sense. But I think the very fun that she grew up in Venice, HUD, father actually was he was a fruit Trump, but he worked his way up to he had a huge amount of determination, hard, work, and grit, and he was determined that. He's daughters were going to get a decent education decent opportunity. So he was on Bisciste too. I think that although it's not necessarily directly traceable as she say. I think there's a in her background that contributed to that confidence. And that determination if only to be bloody minded in inventories, really unto have the out dot success in a in a in a small town community where it perhaps. Wasn't expected of the fruit. Restore to to go on and have friends like John Gielgud and Gwen Franken Davis modern Monte to hunt. So dumb the age of the series. Sorry for the deed is out in later. The right pro-life. Thank tell us. Something about the story behind that one. I haven't had that. There's no lot online about that book at all at the moment tonight, partly because the it's been put back to the old tool. It'll come out to you don't open them. But it it was inspired. Great by the franchise for my love of book. It is set in Sussex, which is part of the world that take absolute in loved, and it's it's partly set Charleston, the fame the home which went onto famous the hope part of the blooms present wherever Balan Duncan. Grunt lives many years, but it's at Charleston before it became famous as we know it and you see. Three points in her life. You see her in the nineteen thirties as people who read books will know her. But you also goes back to nineteen fifteen. So we see today as a young girl during the I will some of the things that went on to influence her life. And we also see how we move forward to nineteen forty eight when she's about to publish the franchise. In fact, we go with her to launch Brosse the franchise best. So it takes three points in life. And sees how different she is on Costa r- is the modem history. I'm in the nineteen fifteen part which has repercussions related time. Periods found fascinating. And I know you've mentioned that she right eight mysteries in this is going to be number eight for you is the guy to be a number nine or regard to leave it at that next Leded. There's going to be a number nine in a number ten because I've just signed a contract for two more. So that definitely will be will be ten and hoping tasted on with number nine the moment, which it. It made me smile a minute go where you said, you don't do country houses and people sitting around solving. This is actually sort of a country house murder with the difference at Christmas. So it's going to be a a sort of riff on the golden age Christmas mystery. Wonderful fats just moving away from the mysteries. You've gotta stand align. Historical Steinle in Elsie coming out the true. And again, that's based on the unconventional family. Life of the artist sustain Lee Spencer. Tell us about that what John Lewis that I gather at wouldn't be a mystery. But not a memoir either. I think I think about this a lot really, it's it's a straight historical novel. It I see is very much connected to the taste series in the sense that it is reimagining of a real figure in a particular term in place in the nineteen twenties and thirties again. No, it's it's not a mystery in a generic sort of way. But I've been thinking about how I approach the characters in that book on. However, the ones in imam is basically it is about for the mining and trying to understand. Band. Untrained get under the skin of why people do what they do. And you said unconventional firmly life. I think most people would agree with you in that respect and Stanley Spencer as well as being untested testing. Ossis a great great office one of my favorite artists. He also did some things that I think some of us would find car disarm them. And that's exactly what you do when you are to crime over you try to understand why people do things they do. And that's not just a motive for murder, but a motive for the everyday acted love and jealousy and shame and greed. And so from that respect, I think it's not entirely different. It didn't feel so different. When when I was rising it, but it is a story. The I've wanted to write about for several years now, it's inspired by stunned expenses creation. All the foes. I were memorial chapel which he painted. And it's a beautiful beautiful place in hump SHA village. But what really sort of was my doorway into was a a lady called Elsie Monday. Who was the made that he hired to look after his family when he went to that village, and she became a very important figure. She became a friend to him a friend his wife, Hilda carline and certainly to that children really important member. The psalm is one of the news for his work. So most of the book is is told through her eyes and hopefully to go again back to the seams of some of the tables, it gives a voice to the women in Spencer's life who are usually the silent presence in his paintings. So it turns the tables on him a bit. Yeah. That sounds wonderful. Look tuning to you. Why to career you divide your time between Coon woman, Cambridge and Kumla who might be writing base, I gather, and we knew in Cambridge. You've got along other exciting things that you do. And that's not so different from the way Joyce Athene structured her life. Is that just a coincidence that just how it works spiritually head dot caution may merely you. I've never really thought of having a connection to her Kushner obsolete. Rated does I mean from for us for practical point of view. It is the controls between the two places the is wonderful in Cambridge says a lot going on as you say, it is a beautiful beautiful city with a great history on a great pulse. But it's a very manmade Ichi the art and the architecture and the history of Cambridge's phenomenal. But when you get the cool, it's very rule elemental BC on it is a different pace of life is a different BT. And it's very inspirational in that sense is in Cambridge. You do a radio show with your Patna, Mandy, cold, the click, tick, light shy and. That sounds fascinating. I must've been I haven't yet managed to listen to a fully aside. But again, she does the music and hear the books and film reviews, and you've already head Studi Collins on this year, you draw some amazing gifts tell us about that shar that should started Monday worked for twenty six years at the BBC. So it was a show that she started when she was at the BBC. She has a music background herself. She had a bangles friggin later, the Monday more band, they recorded six albums and tool quite extensively. So she has a music broadcasting background, and we really met through the radio the Sears, the I worked in and I started to do pieces on her BBC shows relating to the future in various ons things. So it's kinda Volve not fully through that. And we do we choose. She does tend to the musical there this month. She's challenged me to tell the story of Johnny mentioned through ten songs. I mean, how'd you choose ten Joni Mitchell longs? I couldn't even narrow it does tend Joni Mitchell Dums. So I got that on and we do divide the really we we take on what interests us, and the people who fascinated in whose creativity we haven't we have a great respectful. So it does it does tend to blur. Those lines of theater music and books, aren't but we what we like to do each month. So tell me just a little teat nickel question. Can someone like being used Elland here? I mean, it's not it's not up. There is a podcast resident podcast as well. All our tactic light shows are available on mixed card. So going back game. You gotta mix cloud and type in the correct like show. You will see all the shows that we've done over the past few years. They're they're they're big list whenever they like fantastic. Thank you. I'm estimate. I did pick up on the fact that you had ceded London rain with lots of Rolling Stones references, and as I was going through. I wasn't absolutely searching. But I keep my eye. And I think I only really picked up on a couple sympathy for the devil, and and a couple of wild horses was another one, but you hit a little gang there with rolling signs, obviously that was one of your tricks. You played I gather while you arriving back book. I did I listen to the Rolling Stones a lot rising that book it sort of came from the. Vert within our books. I like to mix different time periods. I find that one eight. Yeah. Be a fascinating mirror on another and some rain, for example, the central death and mystery within that book is the death of a social club hostess who dies in the nineteen twenties. But it's actually based on the suspicions and conspiracy theories surrounding the death of Brian Jones, the founder of the Rolling Stones in nineteen. I'd say all the then at once I'd sort of decided I'd do that it became obvious to me how much Amiram each of the sixties in the twenties all generations coming out of really really difficult wall. It's a time of underground clubs and music on a really thriving drug scene. And so I kind of liked to do that. And I've done it recently in nine lessons as well. When I taken a very nineteen seventies crime, the Cambridge rapist on put it back to the nineteenth. Thirties. And again, those two periods seemed to complement each of the ver-very well, but you're right. So it seemed just a fun thing to do for me when I was writing that book was the sprinkl appear those ankles in unseen. How many people would notice? Look if this one thing you've done in your writing career more than any other that Spain the secret to succeed your success. What would be a really difficult question. In some ways, you'd be better off to ask read about the maybe if some of the things that on proudest all would be may be the characterization and really bringing a richness on a credibility to those people. That's that's what people tell me they admire about the books, but the thing I'm most pleased with ease the funk, they entertain people. I mean when people come up to me events and say they've read one of my books for a second time, for example, that's a huge accolade because an crime euro, which is supposed to depend on the act of surprises. Somebody reach you twice. That's great accolade or people have said the books of gotten through council perhaps or something terrible time in their life. Which a lot of authors will will find something very important. If people take your books to their heart in that respect in and they choose not to get through. Difficult times that would be great. But you know, I think something that is in the Jing is the sexuality of the women in those books Kay's having a running affair with another character cooled martyr in these books, and I get a lots of letters now from people whose grandmothers or on so mothers faced similar choices about being open about the sexual not will having to hide it. And some of them were brave and went with it and had a lot of prejudice. As a result. Some of it chose easy. Opponents may be didn't ever have the happiness that they thought they might. But a lot of people saying that it's great. But these books give voice to those women because it will silenced. And I think that's important and possibly past of the reason that Joyce fame kind of whom I sleep that. Double life, and was regarded as a bit of the line wolf, she she was very aware of the patch. She was trading being honest with his self, but not Lang herself open perhaps to too much public comment is I think that's true. I think that was posted it, but I also think that was something inheriting her character. That was alone. Will I think it this? I will be the first to admit that there is a lie in her relationship with mushroom my books, but it's not the less been as miss the closeness. And I think she anybody who has read and love the franchise affair like I do and who knows Marian shop speech to robot. Blair, I think will recognize a lot of how Taylor felt in in that book. Look we started to come to the end of time to give tuning to Nikola as Rita. This is cooled the joys of binge eating. So we need to recruits you're reading a little bit. Now. I don't know if you really are a binge reader because you read so deeply that possibly the whole concept of binge. Eating is something that doesn't appeal very much, but tell us a little about your reading tastes. Okay. I I'm ashamed to admit that since I started spending so much of my time writing crime novels. I don't read as much crime fiction as I should do or as I used to. But somebody who I am. I can't been dri because she's not she's not fully imprinted the moment. But a recent discovery of mine is a book favor Russia and Christmas Celia from l'an, and she is a wonderful author, and they are bringing her books out, and I've had to have had to stop myself looking for them online getting them because I would binge read her. But I actually don't want to be over. I love are if you can hear a little squealing noise here. It's not me. It's my counterfeits dropped woods. We didn't just hear a little head to bet. So silly. What what are we live? What are they about it? She a rediscovered. He basically, she another great psychological crime writes, she's a bit a bit later than than to. But she's great. I love Barbara Pam, I love Irish fiction. I love lots of the I am absolute fool for Virago classic journey. So. For like, Rebecca west. Yeah. On stomach Gibbons. I love her work. It's one of the hottest thing. When people ask you what you read to to come out with these. I'm gonna kick queso forgetting people, but they would be the people who most recently. I have I've loved books. Yes. Yes. When the suit cling back looking across unite as as it is at the moment at this stage, if you were doing all again is there anything you would do differently. I've been so lucky I have a fantastic job. I love doing. I'm very happily married. I had a great upbringing childhood. It would almost be churlish to to say. It'd be things. I would do I suppose if there was one thing I wish it would have been possible to cling onto the theater job underwriting job belong because a times. I still miss working in fits. I wasn't on the stage. I was behind the scenes and in in fits marketing. But I love that sense of common endeavor, unchain work and all that sorta thing. So if those one thing I miss it's that kind of cameraderie. Yes, what is the expenditure the writer new projects that you can get will this. But this the Christmas mystery, but I've told you about and the me a lot of promotion coming up full starting now seeing sort of the dead. But I also be thinking about I've got an idea full. Another historical novel isn't a crime novel nervous, turn to learn novel Besse, I'll be gradually starting to think about that as well. And I'm going to stop on Mandy is also crime writer. She writes a series Koba number two three hundred -tective agency. It it. They're wonderful dog and sunny books, and we are thinking of what we're starting to devise a series that we're working together. So that's in the pipeline as well. That's exciting. Now, do you like to interact with your readers, and where can they find you on line? Or is it mainly through your appearances that you see readers to? I'm on Twitter. They can find me at Nicholson book. I'm also on Facebook. But I I'm a polling Facebook. I really don't go on his office. I should but Twitter is for the way to interact with a regular basis, and I do love meeting people events as well. I'm doing undoing blogs having chat light, listen really, enjoying this very much to look at speed wonderful to it really has. It's quite adjacent to me how this being a rea- blossoming of fiction related to this period. That we've been talking about it. I think a couple of the office that I've already talked to that I write in book seat in this period. Really an end. I think it's interesting parallel with the Maitree century that it really is quite a state of of contemporary life coming out of that reexamination of the twenties thirties. Yeah. I think that's I think that's true unload rate loss because eighty such is such an engrossing interesting fair because it's apparent of such diversity to. And I think lots of the women who worked quietly at the particular professions was so pioneering for the work that we do today. I refer the research for sorry for the dead. I read a book by Katie about women on on the home front in the first World War, and it just shows in every single sphere of life. Whether it's policing or foaming all sports, they really were paving the way for people like us come later. Yeah. Look, thank you so much for your time. That collects being real pleasure are will go and read some Joyce of being tired. Actually, it's one of those things that because I have to do so much reading for this and other things that I own I honestly don't get much time just to do reading pollution, which I'm sure you might identify with. It's it's ironic that a prison who loves reading now. Well, of course, the books I read for the podcast, I do very much joy. But just to have something I pick up just entirely for myself. I don't have much time to do anymore. I tell you. I'm quite envious of you rarely because I I really wish that that was one finish table that. I have read us emphasis trait. That's wonderful. Look, thank you so much and all the beasts with this year new writing, thanks, Jenny. Thank you time. Bye. Bye. Thanks for listening to the joys of venture eating podcast. You can find all the details and links for this episode at dub dub, dub dot the joys of binge reading dot com. We'd love to eat your comments and suggestions for who. You'd like us to interview nixed. 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