A highlight from Ep385: Stop Having Boring Shows By Using These Storytelling Tips - Reena Friedman Watts
Try to find other ways to collaborate and continue the relationship versus being just one and done after the episode. A lot of people like they do an interview and then they never talk to that person again. Don't be that person, then your show will continue to grow. Most hosts never achieve the results they hoped for. They're falling short on listenership and monetization, meaning their message isn't being heard and their show ends up costing them money. This podcast was created to help you grow your listenership and make money while you're at it. Get ready to take notes. Here's your host, Adam Adams. What's up, Podcaster? It's your host, Adam Adams. And today I'm with Rina Watts from Better Call Daddy podcast. Better Call Daddy is where she'll interview just about anyone, about anything, interesting things. It's totally uncensored. And at the end, she has the guest ask her father a question because she says her dad knows everything and anything. And so they will ask. And I was recently featured on the podcast. I didn't know what to ask. I was like, geez, like where do I start? And unfortunately I wasn't prepared. I didn't have my question in front of me. So I came up with a question and it was like, what did your dad think when he had a girl? Because I've got a couple of boys. I have two sons and for the most part, boys are pretty easy. And you do want to raise them as gentlemen, but I think I would freak out if I had a girl. I would lock her in a whatever, like some type of up high thing. I would lock them up and I wouldn't let anyone see them or talk to them. I would be that weird controlling, scared to death dad, like we hear about in history. So I think God or the universe knew that and just gave me boys. That was perfect. So yeah, that's why I asked on her podcast, Better Call Daddy. So when that episode comes out, the link to it will also be in the show notes here. So you could probably just scroll down, check out that link to Better Call Daddy and also specifically that episode. And you can also connect with Rina on any social that she wanted you to connect with. Everything's down there. Her whole bio is also in the show notes as well. So anything you want to do, like finding her, connecting with her, getting to know more about her, just scroll down. Let's get into today's podcast interview about podcasting ultimately. And it's interesting because Rina has had her episodes. She's been going for well over 300 episodes and soon she'll be crossing 400 episodes. She's been really doing it for a little while. I want to find out like what has kept her there because for one, there's something that's true and it's called podfade. And depending on who you ask and which study it was, studies show that most people don't get past six or 10 episodes. Most podcast hosts never get past that. So she's in the 300s right now and she has 173 ratings and or written reviews on her podcast. And so it's like, what did you do to get all of that? Obviously, there's something good that she's doing. I will mention something that's part of her bio real quick. And it's that she worked with another person and she actually helped get ultimately top guests for them. And so I want to talk a little bit about today on this podcast, like how do you get top guests? How do you reach out to them? Because most of them have gatekeepers. So we'll talk about a few of these things. First and foremost, Rina, I've talked a lot, so I want you to say something. So I'm going to ask you a question. When was it that you launched your podcast? I want to hear the when and the why and the how did you launch your podcast? When, why and how? Great question. I launched in July of 2020. But even before that, I was thinking about it for a long time. So I had co -hosted someone else's podcast years prior. It started off where I was just booking guests, but then it was like two guys, they were both recruiters and they were like, Oh, wow, you've brought us some really interesting people. How would you like to fill in? And so that brought me back to my radio days. I worked for an NPR station in college and I really like the radio medium. And so they let me co -host a few times. And I got excited because I saw the numbers growing and I liked booking guests on that show. So I had gotten my feet wet, which I think is actually a good idea for podcasters. Either guest on other people's shows, co -host a show, starting a podcast, like you're talking about this pod fade thing. It's a lot of work that I feel like people don't think about. Marketing is just as big a piece as recording the episode. It's probably a bigger piece. Marketing is where I feel like people get burned out. So here's how I keep that easy. In the beginning, I literally was just sending an audiogram and a graphic and links to the episode. But then I built upon that. Then it was, Oh, hey, here's some copy you might want to use. The easier you make it for people to share, the more they'll do it. So send them different clips, send them audiograms, send them copies, send them links to the episode. And like you just did a pro tip, see how you can link in the show notes to help them. Do you have a website? I have a website. I have a blog. You have a blog. You have an email list. I have an email list. Try to find other ways to collaborate and continue the relationship versus being just one and done after the episode. I think a lot of people do an interview and they never talk to that person again. Don't be that person. Then your show will continue to grow. Can you guys do an Instagram live together? Are you talking to a streamer? Can you do a Twitch? Can you do a social media collab? Are you talking to somebody who's good at graphics? Can they make you a meme? Think of different things or different strengths that the other person that you're talking to has. Are they really good at rev share opportunities? Talk about affiliates. What is the other person that you're talking to doing that's working that you can get in on or learn from or also do? Interesting. Thank you for sharing all that. I keep going. I'm hung up on something though because I did the math. I looked. You had something that went out like on September 4th. You had something went out on August 28th and then August 21st and I'm noticing that it's about once a week. Yep. I've gone down to one a week. In the beginning, I was insane and did three a week. Ah, that's where it is. Okay, because I pulled up my calculator. You basically have been going a little over three years and so I calculated basically there's 52 weeks a year and you should only be on like 150, 160 episodes right now. You're like 330 -ish, so like more than double. I was going to ask what happened there. So let's talk about this because I know some podcasters who launch and maybe they're doing it or triple it. So they switch it to three a week or they switch it to one a week from one a month or I know maybe there's three somebodies actually who have gone to daily who started with like every other week or once a week and now they're at like five or seven a week. But for you, you mentioned that you had at three and that lately has been at one and I want to find the pros and cons. I want to find out why. I want to find out if it's working better. Were you getting burnt out? Why change from three to one? That is a great question. Well, there were multiple reasons. I would say a bit of burnout. Yes, like I wanted to stay fresh and now I batch record too. So I'm like six, seven weeks ahead of like releasing one a week. I think that if you only do one a week, then you're able to market it better. You're able to be fresher. You're able to do better research for the people that you're actually interviewing. You can be more selective in who you're picking. And here's another thing. There are some podcast hosts like yourself that do solo episodes as well. I haven't really done solo episodes. But what I have done is I've had other people interview me. I mean, I've been on other people's shows. So if somebody interviews me well, I will take that interview. I'll create a custom intro. I'll have my dad listen to somebody else interviewing me and then I'll have him respond to a good interview. So I've taken some of my best interviews of other people interviewing me. And I've re aired those on my RSS feed. It just gives you more content gives that other person another boost. It reintroduces an episode a collaboration. So I've done a few of those. But I have talked to other podcasters that, you know, are getting thousands of listens on each episode. And I am finding that they're either doing best of they're doing shorter, solo episodes, or they're doing tips. And those episodes can get just as many downloads as an interview. So I'm thinking about potentially maybe doing some extra daddy segments like me and my dad like reflecting on certain episodes that have stayed with us or daddy tips or I'm playing with that idea as an evolution. So there's a couple things that you said, one of them is that you can be more selective with the guest. And that makes complete sense. If you feel like you have to do seven episodes a week, three episodes a week, then it can get challenging to batch all those it can get challenging to stay ahead of the game. And so there is technically a likeliness going up of you being okay with somebody who is less quality. And so you avoid that by doing fewer. You also mentioned the truth is I'm like thinking on the tip of my head, like there was another reason that you said you slowed down. What was the other reason that you said you slowed down besides being able to monitor them? I was a bit getting burned out. I mean, I was cranking out so many that I wanted to make people want to listen more too. Like if you just give them out so easily, right? Oh, marketing. Marketing was the other one. I did mention the burnout. Somehow I just accidentally mentioned the burnout and forgot that I said it, but I mentioned the burnout and I mentioned the being able to focus on the guest and having good quality. But the other one that I missed that you did say is because you felt like you could market it a sec. Definitely. You can market it better because then you don't have to like, get out your clip, get out the graphic, get out everything. One day you can space it out. And the more you space it out, you're going to hit different people seeing it. I mean, you've got to really promote something like seven times for like your audience to see it. And here's another thing too. I've started working at cool .fm one day a week and I'm re airing best of episodes there. So I'm airing them sometimes a year after they've already aired. And a lot of podcasters, once they air it the first time, they never talk about the episode again. I try to find ways to get my back episodes re listened to. So I just interviewed the Jewish matchmaker, the host of Netflix's Jewish matchmaking. I had interviewed four people from Indian matchmaking a year ago. So I'm like, hey, if you liked Indian matchmaking in her episode, here's the links to those four. And now here's the Jewish version. Okay, cool. So your podcast Better Call Daddy, is it something that you make money from or no? Everybody wants to know that, right? It has led to me making money. Yes. Is it like, does it feed into a business or is it more advertising dollars? How have you made money through your podcast? In lots of different ways like entrepreneurs do, right? So I have made money by advertisers. That is not the route I'm currently going. I have made money through affiliate sales. I've made money by coaching other podcasters who are just starting out in how to do it better. So I do like coaching calls one on one, or I've also helped people produce their own shows. Okay, cool. In that last one, where you're supporting podcasters, is that something that you thought you would do in the beginning? That's a great question. So in the beginning, I did kind of want to demonstrate my love of marketing. Like, hey, if I put together something and package it cool, other people will want me to try and help them do that too. That was a thought, right? But it was kind of a pipe dream. I hadn't done it. I had worked in production before behind the scenes. I got my start in reality TV. I've worked in radio. I love production. I love storytelling. But had I helped somebody from start to finish do it? No, but it led to me doing that multiple times. Yes. You mentioned storytelling and loving storytelling. And I think that podcasts are a lot of storytelling. I'll even tell random stories that are more parables. It's not even a real thing. Obviously, I've made up the characters. They might be ducks or cave persons or something else. So I'll frequently tell stories. I'll tell stories about clients. I'll tell stories about people that have worked with our company and what they're going through. And frequently, if something comes up, I will liken it to an actual story. Because I think that that is really helpful and supportive. And on your podcast, you get interesting stories. Like you're just talking about interviewing people from Netflix on Jewish matchmaking and Indian matchmaking. I know that you've had phone sex workers. I should say the whole thing. Yeah, it sounds totally different if you don't use the whole thing. But on the podcast, and it sounds like the stories are kind of a big emphasis. Would you share why you think that they are and then after the why are they a big deal? Why does it help? Kind of the how the listener can be better with their stories on their podcast? Yes, that's a great question. So why? I just have a fascination and curiosity. And I have crossed paths with lots of interesting people. That's why I also thought I should have a podcast like I've kept in touch with people that I worked with in 9911 and VH1 and E and special effects animation companies and producers and directors. And I feel like a lot of people are and I wanted to bring some of those conversations into the forefront. How the phone sex worker is an interesting one, but I was a coach for Kathy Heller's launching a mastermind. And one of the girls that was in my group was a mental health worker by day and a phone sex operator by night. And I'm like, hell yeah, that's mompreneurship at its finest. I want to hear that story and talk to me like you talk to them. You know, like, wait, so you had her do the voice and everything? Hell yeah. But that was what did she ask your dad? What did she ask your dad at the end? I don't remember, but my dad has got a sons of humor. So I've had women on that have been sex trafficked. I've had a lady on who was a dominatrix. And there's been some funny moments in my dad has a sense of humor. I even had on the host of Netflix's show, how to build a sex room. And my dad was like, he's open to listening to it, but he's like, that's a little out there for me. He was like, I think I'd rather have like a romantic dinner and a walk on the beach. Like my dad. So like old fashioned, he listened to the whips and chains, but for him, that wasn't like so much a turn on. Okay. All right. So it would have been weird if he shared that it was with me. It was how would the listener? No, I'm hearing what you're saying and ignoring it on purpose. Okay. How would the listener think to themselves like the best way to adding in people's stories or their own stories to help with engagement, entertainment, and probably even sales persuasion? Okay. So one thing about storytelling that I've learned is it's really a dance between the and interviewer the interviewee, right? Like you're sharing a bit and I'm sharing a bit and you're really listening for how you can keep the conversation going. You're not just going to your next question. How do you know that? How do you know? I don't just have seven questions that I need to get through in the time of 20, 30 minutes. You can feel it. I can feel it. I like that. All right. Well, keep going. I didn't mean to interrupt you. Hear it and you can feel it. Yeah. So it's okay to have bullet points, but I shouldn't be able to tell it's okay to do your research, but don't be so married to your questions. You have to leave room for magic to happen in the conversation. You have to genuinely be interested in what the person's saying. And I think also new interviewers don't do little things like, tell me more. How do you feel about that? Just little followups like that can make the person who's telling their story open up even deeper. And they love that. So those little tricks of getting a deeper answer from the person who's telling their story will make your story better versus just having a big question and answer, but try to get deeper by just giving them a little yes and. Okay. So to be clear, one of the things that I think I'm hearing you say is if we're interviewing, a thing that we can do that can be beneficial is ask more questions about what they're already talking about. Yes. How did you feel about that? What got you into that? Tell me more about that. These are good things. Is that right? Yes. I love how you just re -paraphrased that and said it better. That's another really awesome technique. Some people are really good at paraphrasing. And actually, the reason I decided to have my dad at the end of my show is because my dad is really good at summarizing what I say and saying it in his own way, but he knows me so well that he's able to connect my crazy thoughts. And I think not everyone when they're starting out podcasting is able to give people the key takeaways at the end. So have a notebook next to you and write down maybe your key thoughts that you want people to remember. That's another really, I feel like, advanced technique in storytelling is what do you want to leave the audience with? Give people those main points at the end. And I love that my dad does that for me and he puts his own spin on it. Yeah. I like it. I'm writing that down. So that's why you don't hear me asking a question. Main points down at the end. I've got some good notes from you so far. We're talking about how you launched a podcast July of 2020. You started out with doing multiple episodes. You slowed it down. And there's a lot of reasons. You were feeling overwhelmed. It was too high of a cadence, but you also justify that with some other things that can be beneficial. For example, it's like, now I can really hone in on who I'm having on. Additionally, not only am I honing in on it, but I can market a little bit better. And I can pull out new things and share them for a while. And you also mentioned how you do what's called callbacks. I was watching a comedian and he was talking about his own callbacks. And he was talking about, he's like, my jokes are so funny because I can do all these callbacks. So he had this whole skit and he kept doing the callbacks. And I think any good comedian will, where they jump into a point that they had mentioned earlier on in the joke. And they wrap it all together. For example, if we found a way to talk about phone sex workers again later on in this, or like where all of a sudden it's just like that phone sex worker or something like that. This is a good way to call back. And you do it with previous episodes. You mentioned that when you're doing the Jewish matchmaking, I think you said, but you had already done with the Indian matchmaking, I think. Is that correct? And so you put the four episodes in the show so now people can get to it easier. And also you mentioned it. And not everybody who comes on this show talks about callbacks like the comedians would, even in the same episode and referring to things that we've talked about before. And not everybody talks about callbacks in the way that you mentioned where you basically share a different episode that you had in a previous time. Like if you like this, then you might like that. Or we're talking about this today, this other episode also talks about it. I like the feedback about using stories, storytelling. And in a way, I just used storytelling of me just watching a comedian talking about callbacks to emphasize a point. And I didn't notice it until I'm looking at the stories right now. But these things where we bring in outside stories or other people's stories can really help to be able to be, as you were illustrating, helps us to be able to be more entertained, to learn more, et cetera. And then you mentioned something that I'm kind of doing right now in a way. It's like it's hitting the main points. And your dad does that at the end of your episodes. I try to do that at the end of episodes as well. I call it tell them what you're going to tell them is the first part. The middle part is tell them. And the last part is tell them what you told them. And so it's like, we're going to learn about this. And then you teach them the thing. And then you say, today you learned, and you share it. And these are like giving those main points, making sure that they're down. And so we've had fun already so far. But we've also learned a few really cool things from you about promotion, callbacks, stories, and repeating the main points. I want to take a quick break. When we get back, I'm going to talk more about how you make money. I'm going to talk about your best advice to a podcaster find and out if there's anything you're struggling with. So how you make money, main thing that you want to share with a podcaster. And we'll be right back.