Rep. Swalwell on impeachment: America wont get a fair trial if witnesses dont testify
Hi I'm Jonathan Martin. Welcome to Cape Up. The impeachment trial of President Donald Donald Trump gets underway trial and process. He has called fake a hoax and a witch hunt the congressman. Eric Swallow of California says the the president is absolutely incorrect as a member of both the house. Judiciary and house intelligence committees swallow. Well has been smack in the middle of the third impeachment of a president of the United States. Listen to break it all down right now congressman. Swallow thank you very much for being on the podcast. Of course. Thanks for having me on so the trial in the Senate begins. The president has already gone on. Record is calling it fake sham. A hoax were all used. The word him calling the whole impeachment process a witch hunt. You're in we're we're in a unique spot of being both on judiciary and intelligence. has this whole thing Ben. A witch hunt a hoax. It's a sham fake anything but that in actually. What's so remarkable? Is that with so few witnesses and so few documents we were able approve so much And I I told Dan. Goldman are lead investigator. Who'd worked for the Southern District of New York on so many high profile cases I sedan? You probably we never in your life have had a case of such great magnitude with so little to work with because the president one covers any witnesses when give us any documents but what what is revealing. Is that every time we get a new document. Not from the president usually like a public request or someone comes forward with every time we find a new witness they all reinforced. What we believe to know that the president was running this shakedown scheme? We've never seen a witness come forward or new document produced that goes in the other direction it continues to reinforce this shakedown scheme. Well I was about to ask you. You said you're able to get these documents through other means and testimony that you the the proof so much. What was proven yet so we proved that you know the president? From as early as the beginning of twenty nineteen hours was running this shakedown scheme with the Ukrainians where he was insisting that they had to even as far back as President Porsche Anka before presence Lindsay was elected that they they would have to conduct investigations to receive. US aid and investigations that would only benefit the president not benefit any American because it would relate to his political political campaign and so we saw that the president was at the center of the scheme. He wasn't you know an answer Larry Beneficiary of the scheme that he was directing the scheme. We saw that he ordered. Rudy Giuliani to really run this scheme. And you saw through Gordon Sean Lennon. Kurt Volker that the president said you know work with Rudy Eh. What it comes to Ukraine you saw in the New York Times Rudy Giuliani said. Back in May twenty nineteen were not meddling in an election were meddling in an an investigation and the we part there is so important. Because he's not talking about himself he's talking about he and president trump and then of course through the witnesses. This is who did have the courage to come forward. We saw through Dr Fiona Hill in the tenant. Curnow ihnen that there was a connection between investigations and the cranium getting getting a White House meeting. And then of course through Sunlen we later learned and Mulvaney at that was also tied to Ukrainians getting the aid. So with very little We saw the president put his own interests above ours above our national security and election integrity. So you mentioned Fiona Hill Lieutenant. Colonel Bandmann Ambassador Sunlen a person who didn't testify then but who were hearing a lot from now is Lev Parnis. Why didn't he testify during the hearings and both judiciary and intelligence you know? Mr Parnell was indicted for campaign finance crimes a during the early stages of our investigation. And as I understand it You know he had many of his electronic devices and documents. Documents and records seized by The southern district of New York prosecutors and did not have documents that he could produce to us and did not give us documents until just this past weekend and our investigators who've already got a lot of things to work with. Were able to go through a lot of devices documents. To produce some records that also reinforce that again there was a priority on getting the Ukrainians to do investigations. That Rudy Giuliani Elhiani. again was acting Donald Trump's agent and that marie-yvonne which was someone that they had to smear in clear to run this corruption campaign Do you believe left Parnasse. Because they're folks Within the Republican Party who are casting doubt on what he has to say AH casting doubt on his role the president is out there. Saying I may have been in a picture with the guy but I hardly know the guy I is. He credible I would not necessarily believe left Parnis but I believe his documents and I believe the witnesses around him that corroborate what he has so if he was the only person saying what he's saying. I would be highly skeptical. But he's not a have phone records of left parties. We see him in contact with Rudy Giuliani at the time that Uganda which is being smeared. We see him in contact with chairman. Newness who is also connected to the White House in many ways we see Left In the notes that he provided is surveilling ambassador. You'RE GONNA Vich. We see notes about running investigation. Let me stop you on that. Surveilling Ambassador Aso's Avant Ivanovich. Do you believe that you know the president Set on the July twenty five phone. Call that she's going to go through some things That's the mob talk rock. The president often uses in those are the tactics he uses and so I do believe that but again as a former prosecutor witness parnasse you would really want to be careful unless you had documents and other witness accounts. That can corroborate it. And I think here you do and you know when I when I listened him on the Rachel Maddow show talk about how humiliating it was to be frogmarched out of his house in the dark hours of the morning by the FBI and he has to walk by hi. This trump shrine that he's built with all the donations. He's made that. He was humiliated and that his wife was embarrassed And you just have to think that the country that he comes from being corrupt as it is Ukraine being part of the Soviet bloc when he was there if you were making contributions helping out a leader you would be protected. Fortunately and we have a rule of law here where the F. B. I.. Still independent of the president. So He's not GonNa get away with it and I think you can see. He's talking about that humiliation he's realizing Donald Trump is not going to protect him. He's being arrested for contributions he's made at the trump team and then of course and the public campaign campaign. Trump is throwing him overboard saying he doesn't even know the guy so it's his pride. I think more than anything that's probably driving him. Coming forth is something that's interesting is how long among the Justice Department has had all of this parnasse information that's been revealed is surprising to you that the Justice Department that is run by attorney attorney. General Bill Barr who is basically turned himself into the president's personal lawyer. Are You surprised that Bill Bars Justice Department is allowing this to happen. Well I I would just say I in defensive prosecutors. They don't move on political timetables and they certainly don't let you you know defendants drive. You know when records are released so I would typically give them the benefit of the doubt that if they are still working this investigation if they're looking at other characters actors they don't want evidence out in the public that could compromise investigations. They may be running however there are there are real reasons to ask. What is bill bars involvement Golfman in this case is he peeking into the files Or have his hands into the investigation of SDN why prosecutors St and why prosecutors are notoriously fiercely independent and. I would just hope that we would hear about that If Bill Barham was doing that but I I think you know we need to know and if bill the bar you know had the guts to come to Congress and he refuses to do so. That's a question we could ask. It will your former prosecutor. What is your gut tell you I you know I I asked a former? Sdn Y prosecutor this very question a couple of weeks ago and he told me knowing Sdn y that he thinks what's that if there was any meddling in their investigations that because of their reputation and how much treasure that reputation. You'd probably hear them speaking ICAN out so I want to help. That's still true. My Gut right now is that those prosecutors are probably holding on tight to those cases but at the end of the day bar a high profile indictments bars and have to sign off on those and so the question is you know is he. Green-lighting redlining any high profile indictments that that evidence could lead to in one of the things that the parnasse information reveals is that things are still happening in SDN. Why is still active? There are still zillow investigations going on and I'm wondering what recourse does the Judiciary Committee have in response to the par- information is. Could we see a a situation where the committee calls him in for testimony. Well we WANNA certainly here from bar anyone at justice to talk about whether that independence is still there that those prosecutors can do their work now with Parnasse. We believe that the forum that's most appropriate right now for any relevant witness as relates to impeachment is the Senate and that Parnassus really illuminates why the Senate should have relevant witnesses testify and of course the the four that we we see our Bolton Mulvaney Blair and Duffy. Those are the four most relevant. But I think Parnell's is making a pretty good case that he too has relevant information but we do not want to rule out that on how side with the subpoena power that we could bring in people like Bolton who said he would respond now to subpoena or people like partners so with the trial beginning in the Senate And the house managers making the case. What can we expect? Yeah I just a insistence upon having a fair trial you know in that starts Tuesday right. So Tuesday is when this trial is essentially going to begin in earnest. You know the rules will be voted on as far as you know the procedures for witnesses and so really insisting that witnesses like Bolton and others. I can testify. That'll be first and foremost you only need fifty one maybe fifty senators you know. There's this debate about if it's fifty in a tie. If if the chief justice can break the tie vice president pence cannot be a part of the proceedings. He's kind of conflicted out as a vice president impeachment proceeding. So do you need three or four Senator Senator on the Republican side to come forward For these witnesses I was encouraged to see Senator Romney early in the week. Make the call that he wants. Bolton testify testify Senator Collins seems to suggest that she would be there. So you're about you know one or two away from being able to get those types of witnesses and I I really believe that if witnesses like those come in this trend of witnesses beget witnesses. Documents beget documents will continue to prove true and it doesn't help the president. It helps the case that we may from the beginning that he put his interest above. America's Kenan argument be made that the president indeed got a fair trial. Even if witnesses don't testify justify America won't get a fair trial if witnesses don't testify and and I think that's what's most important is that both the president and Americans get a fair trial as we know what this president his all about the theater. He's all about the picture as it appears on television division. He is has been said many times. He is producing a television show every day. Would you be surprised if the president threw a wrench into everything and either decided to change up his legal team. And you can tell me if if he would be able to do that midstream. Or and this is not out of the realm of the possible given who were talking about just deciding to show up and testify on his own behalf. There were moments during the impeachment inquiry in the house. Where part of me you know every time the door open and you guys going to walk through and just bring the theatrics more into the room in addition.