Listen: Gaza, Hamas And Israel discussed on John Batchelor
"Oh, I'm John Batchelor. Malcolm Hoenlein, Conference of presidents is with me. He's on the phone. He's from Baltimore. I'm in New York. And we go immediately to the crisis in Gaza, HAMAs is at the center of the crisis HAMAs. Now been condemned by majority of the UN general assembly. That's a good step. But what is to be done to help us on this? We welcome retired Israeli Brigadier General Asaf Orion who is now at the Washington Institute as a military, fellow general, a very good evening to you. Thank you for this. The crisis in Gaza is as long as my been travelling to Israel since the beginning of this century. I saw the provocations along the berm last the la- my last visit last spring, and I see now that's ex- escalated into the rockets and now the attack tunnels. So is there one remedy here? Or is this going to be a perpetual burden to the state of Israel and to Egypt? Good evening to you. Good evening. Is there a remedy? Well, this is not a silver bullet kind of problem. We're facing a target is Asian determined to fight Israel at the same time. They're trying to govern Gaza. So the first thing that as will have to do is to self, protect and defend it on people, and you tell them. It needs to do that without reaching in war, which is on required and unuseful in many ways because when you analyze the Gaza problem going to a full-scale war means that Israel takes over Gaza after getting out of there in two thousand and five. So the main challenge is to find ways to stabilize the situation. To relieve the Gaza population districts and and economic dire situation, and that's by quite a wide spectrum. Financial means economic means of crossings of of other means so the military option is always they're always the most desirable. There are so many issues from electrobi- in Gaza, HAMAs fighting infrastructure disarmament. There are there was Egypt. There's the PA Israel HAMAs. What what do each of the groups gain or hope to achieve in a longer term deal in the negotiations that we hear about? Hamas would probably like to have free movement in and out be able to govern Gaza on the way to taking over the whole Palestinian system. So actually takeover from fat and the Palestinian Authority. It would like to be able to build its military force and to actually advance it's a national project. When Goss is a springboard to the rest of what they call two free Palestine, and that's the destruction of the state of Israel. Now, the the PA. Oh, the bus and his government would like to weaken their their worst rival. So this is how you understand the budget cuts Tabas per phone earlier this year, which actually were the opening shot for for the whole sequence. Would like to have the security problem from Gaza decrease without letting HAMAs being too strong. So there is a dilemma how do you? Let relief an economic supplies into Gaza. Without this pouring into the military buildup ending up in rockets and tunnels against Israeli residents and Egypt. We would like to to see this stab Eli and not spillover in Kusei security issues because her mouth is so no and no one to support the ISIS Sinai province. Oh, see sonic state. So it's it's many moving parts a lot of. Qatar is playing a useful role years, and let me Donald so very lots of cooks in this kitchen. Not every dish is fully successful. It's a very fine art of of trying to keep it on on unsteady situation without the flare up staking us to full escalation general. Like every other gangster organization needs money. What would it lives on his cash? Wear who was the driver for HAMAs cash. Some of it is coming today from. From. As we fade with this consent. Some of it is self taxation of things coming into Gaza and HAMAs taxes, they incoming. Commercial stock for whatever. In in Gaza itself is also receiving Iranian fun. Because Iran is is very happy to support whoever's harassing Israel and attacking it from close proximity. And that's about that's about it. Can that cash can the Iranian cash? Be choked off do does Israel have the authority and the apparatus to do that. No, we don't it. It's not a question of authority when we can we do. Regard to Qatar. What is it gender here? What do they want in the longer term and besting investing oldest money? I know there are people talk with their pro power struggles with Saudi Arabia and with the way he gets de-ticked against others. And yet we saw for the first time that I recall is really about praising Qatar constructive role. Yes. Personal the personal level in two thousand fourteen when I was still in service cut up played the less useful role during the Gaza campaign and actually put quite interesting obstacles in front of termination mechanism of that conflict. So they're actually responsible for making the conflict longer than they should have be. But right now Qatar is is actually playing a constructive role. Because it's willing to bring resources other players do not own calculus. He's been able to to be relevant to strikes a good chord across the Arab scared showing that they're helping the Palestinians, and they have been supporting Muslim Brotherhood and HAMAs for some time now, so he's also who serves their support to that camp. But definitely in in the with a lack of other Gulf players contributing to stabilize ation except Saudi Arabia in the last week. Supporting unwrap for fifty million. So Qatar is playing a significant role here in Israel sees it for the positive because it seeks stability, the attack tunnels that were part of the operation these last days. Hamas. They're exposed they're attacked. They're taking down HAMAs bills. Again, is this is this the cycle. We're in general without a solution attack them. Take them down moss. Rebuilds we're talking about two different area with HAMAs until now the ideas tore down and destroyed. Seventeen tunnels that came from Gaza into Israel. And by the end of next year. The idea would have built an underground obstacle system an early warning system. So this problem is will probably be behind us in a significant way in the last days what we are hearing is actually attack tunnel expose attack tunnel system exposed in the Lebanon area, and this is not the HAMAs handiwork. But so they're devoting a lot of time money and manpower in trying to create inroads into Israel, and they're finding that they Israeli intelligence dominance, and technological superiority. And both in using those means rolling back significantly. So they're actually now holding their hats and saying well, these assets we lost and collectively we need to be careful that this destruction doesn't escalate it needlessly, Malcolm. Quickly to two things one. Are you suggesting or do you think there is a coordination between escalations in north and south are just they operate independently with some communication and did the recent events in Gaza vis-a-vis the Israelis that were caught did that have any longer term impact? On on the coordination between them, I think what what I just said about the tunneling in the south. Knows it shows more is shared school or doctrine of military strategy. And here the great professors are probably the chairs of the faculty are Iranian uranium could source of the. The core. But on employment itself on actually opening fire at the same time. We think that HAMAS Palestinian organization in his ballets Lebanese movement, although being in Iranian proxy each are making their own calculus as as to when to run the the operations. To open fire. They have very good reasons. Not to go into into each other's decision. Making in in this in this sense. Right. Asaf Orion a retired from the two thousand sixteen as an Israeli Brigadier. General he is now at the Washington Institute as a military fellow knock them online conference the president's. I'm John Batchelor. This is the John Batchelor show. I've cagey oh eight. Ooh. You."