Manley, Dan Savage, Japanese discussed on The Current
Japanese and Jeff lease is generally smaller than Canadians Americans right so the more taller and Mascara man's immoral like Manley. I think it'd be last year is more like Manley. I think he's saying that there's a real bias when it comes to what's considered manly and you explore this in the book as well. Yeah there sure is. I love that you have these clips there so fantastic. I talk a lot about boys of color and particularly about African American boys and Asian American boys Who are kind of flip sides of the same coin in in terms of how we think about masculinity so African American boys are kind of hyper? Sexualize D- But then the other side of that is that they are The that can flip over and they are quickly. Seen more predatory and Asian American guys are seen as less masculine and a sexual and one of the guys who is Asian American that I was talking to was telling me about his experience on Swipe APPs and Swipe APPs are kind of rife with sexual racism and he matched with a girl who they talked for a little while and she said well you know we could be friends but no offence. I don't date Asian guys and he was like. How is that. No OFFENCE OF COURSE. That's a fence courses. Yeah and now on the other side of it you tell the story of. What's an exhibitor WHO Is Young Black Guy who who's trying to figure out again back to the hookup. Culture piece how he figures into that partying drinking Scenario as a young black man right and that you know with the the African American guys that I spoke with were in largely white schools So they were operating in that realm and they felt a pretty intense sense of anxiety all the time around. That and so one of Xavier's friends Emma said to me you know I don't like to go party I'm not I don't WanNa be in a room with a bunch of drunk white kids because anything could go wrong and if I'm the only black guy at the party you know I'm the only black at the party. So there is this sense that he was going to be Targeted and potentially as they would say you know. Lose my whole life for you know not only walking talking. Sh- pulling out your ID when black but also potentially For being in a room and being the only black guy and if anything you know he there's like if something gets broken if a girl complaints anything it's going to go straight to me. What about the issue of Sexual Orientation What's it like? What did you learn about what it's like to be A young gay man Well there were a couple of things that we're really interesting about that. The I was how it related to straight people and one of the things that came out really clearly was that gay boys Presented a kind of model of how to navigate consent and negotiate several relationships in part because they had to. You know what was going to happen in counter was not assumed or obvious. One Gay boy said to me you know. I don't really get the straight guys who were so resistant to talking about consent. Because you know if you're talking about it that means you're GONNA be having sex and that's great. So what's the problem? Dan Savage. He's a Red Syndicated Columnists Sucks Has said that gay men tend to use what he calls the four magic words which are what are you into and I loved that because it's exactly the sort of open ended question that we ought to be encouraging people to engage in when they have a sexual encounter. What are you into the conversation and puts everything out on the table as opposed to the way that we tend to think of it? Which is that. It's a yes or no response to A A set of predetermined ideas and usually that one person is suggesting. Can we talk briefly about porn and porn has done to how Boys and young men see not just issues of consent but sex and sexuality. Yeah I mean you have to know that if you have a teenage boy. He's certainly important right And that it has become in absence of parental conversation and conversation in school one of the main sex educators and you know curiosity about sex is natural and masturbation is important. But what's changed? Is that with the rise of the Internet and smartphones and particularly sites like porn hub. That dropped the paywall. Young people can see anything that you can imagine and a whole lot of things. Nobody wants to imagine Right at their fingertips and the picture of sex that they're getting you know there's all kinds of porn. There's there's queer porn there's feminist porn. There's ethical part but that is not really what they're looking at. They're looking at what you can get in for Free. That's the most accessible And that typically shows sex as something men do to women Female pleasure as a performance for male satisfaction distorted bodies. A lot of acts. That you know wouldn't really feel good to most people And when we're not talking to our kids when we're not telling them what is real about that what's not real about that. What's missing from that Inevitably they're taking that into the bedroom. You you end the book by talking about talking to kids with and there are a series of lessons For parents we started talking about parents being freaked out by. Maybe what they heard Around hookup culture. What's the lesson to parents in terms of how to talk to boys and young men about sex so look? I know you would rather poke yourself in the eye with a fork. Then talk directly to your son about socks right. Maybe you can't even talk to your partner. You know I it is. It is not something that we a culture have learned how to do. But we don't have the luxury anymore of silence. We we have to do it because if we don't the media will educate our kids for us and you have to do it. I mean as you say you wouldn't talk about table manners In one conversation. Expect your son to be polite that this needs to be a a series of conversations. Yes yes I mean you would not sit down and say okay you know you need to have good manners when you leave the house Make sure to put your Napkin and say please pass the food and excuse yourself before intellectual give a whole list and then walk away and think okay. I've told my child I've done my job. No you would not do that. So in the last chapter of the book I devote to talking about not giving you a script but the kinds of conversations that you need to have with your boy and most of them would work with girls too About sex but not just sex. You know a consent but not just consent Sexual pleasure about media about porn about gender making gender dynamics visible About a whole series about masculinity about a whole series of ideas That they're going to end messages that they're going to confront that we need to Disrupt and help them critique and understand better like I was thinking about how I have a daughter and when she was little I was constantly bringing up Distortion body distortion in animated films. So I would say you know. We bought some Disney filming. I'd say hey look. Her eyes are bigger than her wrist are. Your is bigger than your wrist. Is your head bigger than your waist. you know and just having these sort of constant little conversations and I thought I wonder if I would have done that if I had a son. I don't know and he is growing up in these same. You know culture where that is saturated. I mean that's that's for little kids but as they get older You know it's saturated with sexual sexualize imagery that this is mainstream media video games. Tv movies That the same sexual imagery that that girl see the same ideas of female sexual availability and sexual submission the same ideals of ideas of male sexual entitlement. And we've gotten so much better about talking about that with our daughters Over the years because you know we we see the harm that can do to them but we have been really silent with our sons and I think that's one place that is not the threatening for parents to change Peggy. Thank you. It's a real pleasure to talk to you. It's been great. Thanks so much for by. Ornstein is the author most recently of boys and sex young men on hookups love porn consent and navigating the new masculinity for more. Cbc podcasts Goto CBC DOT CA slash podcasts..