Alex Neil, Philip Grain, Europe discussed on BBC World Service
Nation state exalted one particular national cultural historic group that enforced its moral Ethical values through law This, was true in Britain certainly true in America's through China where you have one, very dominant ethnic group As The state was fused with that nation The people are group's sort of took it for granted that there was no difference between their values and the values. Of the entire population of the state so I think it's perfectly, natural that. Alex Neil others would. Say hi on we have different culture we'd like to have a political organization that doesn't maroon us inside a. Nation state run by different national group I think that there is a way forward for groups like that in something like the European Union Catalonia Lamberti Scotland would ever be feasible, as industrial nation states on their own but they can be made. To work inside a much, larger group, I think Neil mentioned NATO for example look, at the wider groups in a moment but I just do with those nation states because there's this is sent some time that there was a kind of twentieth century golden age in which the fit. Between politics economics information in these established States, worked but I suppose what I'm hearing from this discussion is that it never really worked for everyone that there were lots of ethnic religious whatever problems simply suppressed in the, nation states have old Angie Oh absolutely I mean. I'm, defending the nation state is the least worst option so yes we've got increasingly got challenges of globalization and we're going to have to think very. Hard about how, nation states, can tackle those global issues However I still think that. Retaining the nation status immortal is going to, be the most efficient, and indeed, democratic way of trying. To tackle global issues because my though of course I want larger global parties such as the United Nations there is a decrease. In transparency and accountability and in my view real democracy the bigger you get so we have a very challenging time. Ahead of us and, the nation state is, going to have to. Work hard to survive but, I still hope it does because I think both larger and smaller bodies both give rise to even more problems I suppose Philip grain, I just want to sorry Felipe the grain I just want To concentrate, from. Moment on, the successes of that nation state before we move on. To really, tackle the challenges it faces now because we're all very familiar with the enormous increase in the number of nation states of the second World. War, but that you know post colonial population subjected to that cocktail thar Teheran is math Nick cleansing in some cases war corruption ecological devastation in a. Way the nation, state never, worked the song countries which were only coherent on the. Map but which nation states to have worked, and what have they, delivered for, their people I think. You're absolutely right to say that when the colonial empires broke up after the second World War that new nation states were created. Where basically European Muslim model applets organization was imposed in places which have no tradition or aspiration necessarily to that and. That in many cases, artificial nations were created, or, states which didn't. Function properly and Therefore the trim of bashful self-determination often, wasn't realized I think that there's a danger in attributing economic and other forms of success to the full of, organization I one can, say that western Europe and the United States were incredibly successful. After the second World War, can you, attribute this. To the fact that they were nation states or was it to two other fighters I would be, skeptical about attributing it to their former political organization clearly for some this is seen. As the golden age and the national state where international interaction the increase in the nineteen thirties was limited capital flows were relatively low population flows where relatively low though increasing and trade while liberalizing was still relatively small as a sheriff GDP and therefore, there was a feeling that, national governments controlled economies in a way that there isn't. That Feeling today I think that's a misperception I think the national governments actually have much more control than people. Think, and the reasons why in many cases that. They have retreated from their role is due to domestic politics rather to global forces we'll come back to. What they face at the moment I just want to tackle for one moment longer this question of was. There a golden age of the nation state in Europe and North America and is it passing Ronaldus Gupta? Versus of moment to which a lot of people look back as. Golden age and that moment is what they call in France lutron Gloria is the thirty glorious years from nineteen forty five thousand nine hundred. Seventy five and clearly the structure of the state at, that point was very different to what it is now in fact we can. Define the present moment as the systematic dismantling of the system that would fit existed at that time And very important to that system was the fact that economies did basically exist importantly at a national scale capital and labor would. Both national in General Motors for instance it's American capital. In American labor American steel making these cars and. Employees and corporation both are paying very high levels of taxation to the American government which is, redistributing that money internally so that has the nation state is a closed system and there's a very high level, of moral purpose associated with that closed system from. The nineteen seventies onwards the whole point of the reconfiguring, of the global economy has been. To spatially relocate thing so that labor is in one part of the world and capitalism in another. So that, things can escape the National League of framework you export jobs not simply civic you can find people to work For less but who says that you don't have to be bound, by the the, regulations that binding your managerial classes and so the global economy starts to take. Advantage of the lawlessness of, international space compared to the legality of national space. We'll come, back to that run a diskette, Philip can I just press you for moment then. On whether there's a danger that the independence and self determination movements, that we see around us today. A harking back to some. Kind of golden age model, after all you know many of them just like us just like the politicians and just like many older. Voters grew up alongside that golden age model in our heads are people hankering for something. Which is no longer available possibly Hollywood say the industrial nations to it was a tremendous success it brought mass suffrage on a scale. Never seen before mass Republicans occasion. In most states mass health program The state should want to achieve that if they haven't already perfectly reasonable I also think that, there's a lot to the cultural drive to have a state of fusion of a particular cultural group with. A stated will enforce its values having said that I don't like that that's really the option for the most powerful states. Because I don't take industrial nation state is itself, strategically the most powerful form and that's why it's indicate but I know we'll get that later we will we have to take a very short break now it's worth mentioning that if you have feedback or suggestions, for topics, you can Email us at this address the real story at BBC dot co dot UK or tweet me at BBC Carey and if you enjoy the program do subscribe to the podcast just search for, BBC the. Real story in your podcast app distribution.