Britain, British Empire, Richard Bergen discussed on Remainiacs - the Brexit Podcast
To talk about something other than the election. Because we miss our regular so much when they aren't here we've just read something from retailers. LLC Brexit braintrust Columbine Simon glendenning about brexit could change. Britain's attitudes to the legacy of the empire don't took called Brexit the real end of the British Empire. What does this country become makes the dinning in that kind of we'd found a new role in in Europe that have helped to cope with with the end of the empire? What sort of left without you or the I'm presuming? Even Francois isn't going to literally literally bring back. The British Empire comedies his name wrong fragments. While I'm going to be frank. Most what single handling and bring about the British Empire so China and let's give it a good try but yes so I mean. What did you make the peace would suggest what would come next? I think that will be left. Isolated and humiliates. It's all assume that we're already pretty humiliated. Internationally Ashley Anyway with most modern countries looking at us without sleep despair in this actor self harm and I think Ingrid's product quite a bit on the previous shows about this sort of lack of lack of moment of reckoning for the sins of empire the has given us this absolute exceptionalism probably recover with being an island that means we just haven't atone for us in the way most European and other European Union countries that were former. They told me that because I don't know if he's like in the Belgian education system because nobody was nobody behaved appallingly than Belgium in the Congo. Now is that something that Belgian Society wrestles with is particularly British thing to kind of not think about the appalling. Things you did in the St Louis have maps painted in two different colors where pink countries were you had the emperor. Yeah we did have a particularly egregious approach approach to it and certainly I mean in my own. Education was just littered with ridiculous views of I. I remember teachers saying Oh you know we. We gave them sewers and we gave them varied and stuff in labor wants to teach less sanitized sanitized version of schools which has been relieved or ear using my book cover without permission rich. Bergen elsewhere mentioned that pupils should should learn more about Jewishness. And then see Semitism because immediate is true that some people literally do not know once an anti Semitic Tropez and sometimes they use one without meaning to be obviously offensive. Do you think as long as you know sort of push back as if light. We're going to be drilling into people's heads one single orthodoxy. But as long as it's still you know this still debate and it doesn't just kind of flip around and say that you know the upside down I mean. Do you think that we should be thinking more about how education about what we're telling people about history and the way politics works to clean of try and create a you know create a sense sinister later but try and raise just better informed generation so there's always values in education especially when you talk about history education right but when I was told about the charters I wasn't talking about it like are these guys really fucked up and that stuff. The message was these guys. Were basically right. You know this was a very positive movement. Told about the suffragette so American Civil Rights movement. It's not as if what a tragedy these things were clearly values imbued in that. I mean it would be nice if we had a more complex view of British history as well as what is being being more critical of the things that we fucked up. It would be nice if we could look at the bits that we do that. We would did something very impressive. Like the English avert war which I've actually concept bang on about but seems seems like a moment of this extraordinary creation of basically sort of the the sort of really embryonic forms of sort of British liberal democracy. There in you know hundreds of one hundred you did before the French Revolution or the American nation. And we don't talk about that part either and so there's this really quite simplistic disconnected. Jangled up stories. They tend not to teach history as linear line. Tends to be be here. People don't have a sense of how it all connects up and to shut with some values some humility but also some pride in the bits. That one could legitimately be proud about seems to be a very good idea. But instead we're just Torian overhead World War Two fucking but it's amazing how everybody ebbing brings everyone teaches the Holocaust and yet there is still this enormous ignorance about anti Semitism. You know most people do come out thinking. The only version of antisemitism is is literally concentration camps or stick and you know and I actually thought that was not the biggest fan of Richard Bergen. But I thought that was a that was a worthwhile swat idea. He writes it. I'm Alex this dinning also argues that we still don't know really leave one because remain was fragmented because people did genuinely understand the use actual role in Britain advisor and just wanted out of it do you do you. Do you agree because he was saying in three years later. It's like we don't really know no I. I think I think voters are more instinct into than that. I don't I don't think you could ever say okay. Let's run an education program on this issue for the next ten years and then go to the super educated. You know there's this still is sort of trend there they remind me of the way starlings move in a group you know were suddenly. They changed changed direction and they they form in a different way but the reason it happened I just instinctively instinctively. I think the underdog in any direct PR vote on an issue. I think the underdog stands stands of very good chance because I think people like to support the the the sort of the version. That's less likely to win. I think it makes them feel more rebellious. And we're in a country where there is no rebellion right now. Your vote doesn't matter so you give people in pertain to where the vote doesn't matter and you tell l. them very firmly. Now don't vote for X.. And you can almost guarantee you. It's going to happen. It's like don't press. This isn't isn't it. Yeah it is yeah it is. They'll they'll be happy because then Britain will be turned into an underdog for the foreseeable future. Now it's time for most most exciting countdown based political point making segment in the world of British broadcasting. Gone in sixty seconds Africa exciting. Yes every week in one of our panelists is giving legal argument in a single minute to find those fish. Put them in a barrel and shoot them all and it's your turn this week. Your argument it is voting. Tory means we can get breaks it down and move on. I've heard somebody say this blonde guy sixty seconds now it's Bouche and so you're going to do in trade deal so you're going to work out. What are these iwon? You're going to negotiate it ratified and it needs to be implemented now. I don't see the any real evidence of them being able to do the first one in the current timing that is available which has happened to make a decision on extending transition in July with a deadline for the extension in December. If they did manage to do that there is a tiny chance they might be able to negotiate. They certainly cannot ratify which needs to go out towards the member states' parliaments and doing some regional regional parliaments the certainly the thing they're gonna be able to prevent it. What I think will happen instead is this is that he will put himself on the line to desperately try to seal an end the negotiation asssociation by the end of December? He would extend and he will describe. The extension adds an implementation period. which is phrase that Theresa? May You may remember was very very fond of and then you'll grown home for two years or even in that scenario where he would have fucked our leverage out of sight and accepted anything you give him. We would still be leading for another three years on this year at the minimum done now. It's time for part two of our Oscar maniacs election special starting with a two we gammon stake of a question. Jonathan little asks while much. Attention is focused on Boris. First Johnson's insistence that he will not extend the brexit transition period when expires at the end of twenty twenty is the nominal tentative scenario to a no deal at that stage might and you agreement with the U.. Be Possible Dare I say perhaps under the GATT twenty four the distinguishes an interim framework replicating all the conditions of transition. But which allows Johnson's claim that actually extended it. Yeah but that's she she just basically you got twenty four and even that is difficult because the moment that you are actually negotiating the trade deal you are suddenly going to be lobbied hard hard from the right wing Conservative Party which is basically now the whole fucking Conservative Party and then from business and and business do not have the same views in order stuff and different areas that want different things especially about sort of services penetration for sure on customs facilitation goods tariffs maybe be mutual recognition. It'll be complex and industries themselves. You've got a lot of pent-up lobbying punch somebody gonNA WANNA unleash that shit hard because they know this will define you for generation so just making up your mind. As to which way you're GONNA go on this will be hot little negotiating it let alone thinking. What is this stuff? We have to give in response to that that is inevitably going to fuck some other sector that you have in order those dominoes day after day after day. That'd be really difficult. However it is at least conceivable that you could could do that? By December twenty twenty in which. I think he would do that. Thing of rebranding is implementation. What is not conceivable absolutely is the idea that you could also get ratified and implemented by the Dan? That's simply will not happen. I'm very prepared. Say That I think you've got probably a one chance in ten of being able to complete negotiations by the end of twenty twenty if you keep it very very very very bare bones in that case he will he will go. I think the kind of system that he suggests ain't gonNA happen. It's unlikely but at least parts possible and it doesn't matter actually actually because the Cameron Coalition taught us anything is that if effectively you can do whatever you want for four years as long as you it kind of make up for it and put out the right message for the last year of your government before you go to an election. So I think he's internal target as opposed to what he advertisers will be to get it all done by the next election. I think that's the real talk can then stand in front of an electorate and say look. Okay I promised you may have taken a little bit longer but premacy it would get done any God done if if we end up in the next election still so in some sort of transitional period however he names it he will be very vulnerable to attack I I I want. You believe that that's true. That would be a much better. Situation refers to be and what concerns me is that he the internal dynamic in the Tory Party will force him to stick to that no extension and if he does what you've just done is basically handed founded you're negotiating partner huge leverage because they can certainly go. Here's the fucking do. I mean we basically Richard and you'll be able to survive in Matt on Patchen asks from a remain tactical voting perspective. Are there any constituencies in Scotland. That shouldn't vote. SNP Naomi yes. If if you visit get voting dot org.