Today we're gonna be exploring stepping into the unknown head to talk about it. I am joined by debbie. Millman that hosted one of our first podcasts. Ever or one of the first time ever. Hi debbie hang lease. Great ac- air. It's great to see you If you haven't tuned in before debbie's cast is called design matters. And i have been listening while i go on runs and Really enjoy your conversation. Thank you thank you so much. We'll to frame this talk Why don't we start by talking. About how stepping into the unknown applies in your own life in in your own career. Well i was really influenced. Several years ago. I interviewed the great writer danny shapiro and we were talking after the interview. She came into my office at the school of visual arts and saw that i had stacked on my task. Three books had just come out a barrel confidence. I i really had felt at the time. That confidence is by holy grail. But this is what. I was looking for to find my whole life if i could find the confidence to step into any without fear that that would be like my life likely be made and she and i started talking about that and she said oh i think. Confidence is really overrated. What what like ed explodes. And i pressed her for more information. And she said that she felt the confidence overrated that most people that just head oodles oodles of confidence were jerky thought was more important than confidence was actually courage and that courage to step into that unknown was was far more important to being able to reach any kind of call in so it set me on a pass of a research to really find our What confidence actually meant. What does it mean to have. What have you have you get confidence. You're not good with supermarket in like polls confidence shelves