Scott, Breen, Google discussed on The Psychology Podcast


Related concept in cognitive science literature deters socially distributed cognition very mouthful. Yeah better together is much much more concisely. Talk did you I mean the years you took writing this book. Did you delight in inertly out over the scientific neighbors. I mean i can just imagine spending as where you weren't necessarily writing but you were going on google scholar and look you know looking at all. The weight is kinda stuff. Scott you know me. Well i think i i imagine you have done the same thing too. I have a sneaking feeling. Yeah i totally geek. Out about the journals. And that's why this book thome took me so many years because it does cover a lot of different disciplines. A lot of different strands of research. And yeah oh. I totally geek out about the research. And what's exciting is that there's more of this research coming out. Every day on embodied cognition on situated cognition on socially distributed cognition. I really feel like were. Maybe at the at a turning point where you know the i think the old brain bound conception of thinking is just not adequate anymore and we're realizing that there's so there's so much more to what goes on when we when we think and so to me the the research is pointing really exciting. New directions really. Oh well along those lines what are you. What some recent stuff that. You're most excited about excited about Had its shoes. Oh gosh and what. We haven't really talked much about gesture. I find gesture really fascinating. Because i tend to be someone who talks with her hands a lot and i love the idea for example that often are most advanced or most cutting edge yard our newest ideas that we can't quite put words to yet show up in our hands. I you know there's in some movement of our hands. We managed to capture some element of what we're trying to express verbally. And then we can read off that self-generated information you know. We can read off our own hands that can inform our sort of emerging verbal explanation for Of what we're what we're trying to get at. And so i love the idea of Naturally encouraging students and others to to move their hands but also creating occasions where gestures or more likely to happen like people are more likely to jester when they're asked to give an impromptu explanation for something in front of an audience because to speak in an impromptu way like that is really cognitively taxing so we tend to off load some of that burden onto our hands. We also gesture more when there's something to gesture at you know some kind of artifact or model or map or diagram and so and you know the research suggested the more we gesture as we're trying to work something out in our heads the the the greater our understanding the more accurate our memory so we actually want to be getting people to gesture as much as possible. I find that really fascinating. It is fascinating it's also can be used as a manipulation tool for marketers. Who don't really want you to pay that much attention to the words. They're saying distract found that. Just because like i. I grew up like a disabilities so i became hyper. Hyper tune into non verbal communication. And yes and i actually cringe. When i watched some of these people you know like like motivational gurus and people you know like some some of them on youtube five things that will help you breen and and they're likely overdo it with a hand motions but like i actually listen to the words. They're saying about that. So scott i i you know i do. I write in the book about how entrepreneurs who are making a pitch for their their proposed venture when they employ the skilled use of gesture. They j- they attract more funding. Now they maybe they're they. That goes for the charlatans as well as the earnest well meaning entrepreneurs but I tend to think of gesture as another channel of communication and so that channel could be used could be as forgot our allies. Plus absolutely i mean it can be used like i said we used to manipulate. I mean that can be good. Are you wanna to convince certain foods. Mercy's you know. Maybe that are worthy manipulate. But um oh boy what what other topic. What have i missed. What have i missed. I feel like we covered. We covered a lot thinking bodies surround. Now there's something. I think is super coal by your book the way the we over the way we can wilder ideas nope and things. I've long argued in the field of intelligence that we focus too much on working memory capacities the corner aspect of human intelligence and that you can get a lot more intelligence out of people especially diverse people who issues By allowing them to take these things by unwielding reminds me that i think it's just tells nicely with a lot of that is interesting scott. I mean i've been arguing since the book came out. Made the point on a bunch of podcasts. That people who who learn differently or think differently are often kind of leading the way in terms of extending the mind because because their brains don't work the same as as other people's because they're narrow narrow narrow atypical. Is that how you say it north. They diversion they have had to develop ways of thinking outside the brain and using skillfully using resources You know and not and not thinking in the conventional way but But developing often very ingenious solutions that involves thinking outside the brain so and that there's a lot we have to learn from people who who've encountered challenges in conventional classrooms and workplaces. You know because they've been forced by necessity to come up with really ingenious ways of thinking outside the brain and cognitive offloading as you mentioned is is one of those ways just getting. I think all of us can benefit from getting that stuff out of our head onto physical space where we can manipulate ideas. As if they were objects or navigate through them as if they were a physical three dimensional landscape. Because those are the things we evolved to do me do so effortlessly and easily and to keep it all in our heads again doesn't doesn't do. Justice doesn't draw on all this the capabilities and resources that we have as human beings. What's the benefit of lake copying experts. Yeah well in that chapter on experts. I talk about and i'm sure i know you know this research. About how by virtue of being experts. You know experts. Find it very difficult to articulate for a novice. Exactly how they do what they do. Because it's become automated for them. It's become second nature in a way that they're not even that's not even accessible to them anymore and yet our systems of education our systems of workplace training they rely on experts teaching novices. So we really need to think harder. I think about how experts can become more legible examples. for novices so that they can become more easily copied. Because you know that's another bias in our culture that i'd like to push back against this idea that innovation and originality is always better than emulation an imitation because You know imitation used to be at the core of of education for centuries that was it was understood that to master a body of knowledge or a particular skill you emulated the people the masters the people who did it the best and you learn how to do it sort of from the inside that way and only then. Could you add your own twist. There was famous professor of composition rhetoric. Who liked to say imitate that. You may be different. But you. I have to master the fundamentals and an imitation can be the most efficient and effective way of doing that. So i'd love to see the stigma that that attach to imitation currently in our society to love for that to fade away. Yeah well that. And the not like journal. Air sorta way we don't know yeah plagiarism. More like an apprenticeship apprenticeship crunched mastering eight and sharing expertise so important for A lot of scientific discoveries. But i've always been fascinated. This idea of multiple. You know ideas. Grady is seemed to be in the air. You know if you have a certain level expertise and obviously that that expertise nana vacuum is not in a vacuum in some cases it is. There's the this guy he. I think he independently discovered came up with calculus. We've literally no knowledge of the other information that had been going on. It's amazing isn't that. Do you have a theory about that about why that happens..

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