President Trump, Trump Trump, Mr Goldman Ambassador Taylor discussed on The Lawfare Podcast
You Madam Chair. Mr Goldman my colleagues talking about the fact that the president apparently said and I quote no quid pro quo on September seventh in a call with embassador sunland. Mr Sure Goldman. Did you receive testimony about this September. Seven call yes. We receive testimony from three witnesses about it and it gets a little little complicated but that that that was a consistent. Refrain through all of the witnesses. Is that the president. Did say no quid pro. Let's try to clarify it. A little bit ambassador Sunland described that call to Mr Morrison that same day correct. That's right and Mr Morrison then reported it to ambassador Taylor correct. That's correct. Yes and both Mr Moore sent an ambassador. Taylor took notes of those discussions. They did where those notes outs produced to the committee. They were not produced to us but the witnesses said that they relied on their notes to provide their testimony that set of notes oates was blocked consistent with the presence direction. Correct and in his re citation to Mr Morrison Ambassador Sunland said that President trump trump himself brought up the words quid pro quo. That's right embassador. Sunland also said that too. Yes and Mr Goldman. What did the committee make of this? This fact well. It was quite odd that the president would volunteer in response to nothing about a quid pro. Quo that there was no quid. Pro Quo go ahead. I was just GonNa say what's what's even more important. Is that what he said. Immediately after that which is effectively conduct that amounts to a pretty create quid pro quo. He said there's no quid pro quo but you have to go to the microphone and make this announced. Let's talk about that. What did the committee make of the fact that according to embassador Taylor and Mr Morrison right after President Trump said no quid pro quo? President trump then told them Bassett or Sunland that Ukrainian presence Solanki would have to go to the microphone and announced the investigations of Vine and the two thousand sixteen election interference and that presidents and Lipsky. You should want to do that himself. That's right we had a number of different accounts of this and I think this is up on the boards. Here right I see that. Yes he ambassador. Taylor said that ambassador Mr Morrison said something similar. Their understandings of that conversation is that there was a clear directive that there was a quid pro quo fractionally from the conduct from that actions. And we've talked a lot today about the words and that pressure and trump said no pressure no quid pro quo. Oh but as an investigator is a prosecutor you need to look at the actions to understand what those words mean. And that's why this call in particular is so important so let's go further as we've discussed. Multiple individuals reacted with concern to president. Trump's call with embassador sunlen. Do you recall Mr Morrison's reaction Mr. Mr Morrison said that he was shocked. I think and thinking feeling sinking feeling correct. And then he went and then talked to the lawyers. Here's the direction of Ambassador Bolton correct and Mr Goldman Ambassador Taylor also testified that he concluded that the military aid was conditioned on Linski announcing the investigations and he testified that this was the logical crazy and wrong. Is that right that it was what Taylor testified to. Yes now my colleagues have also pointed out that on September ninth text message from sunland reflecting. The president has been crystal clear that there is no quid. Pro Quo Mr Goldman. Am I correct. That ambassador Sunland has now testified that prior prior to sending his text he himself came to believe that the aid was conditioned on the announcement of investigations. Yes Ambassador Song Island subsequent public testimony revealed at least two things that were precisely false. That were not true in that text message including that there was no quid pro quo of any it kind when he testified and we saw the video earlier that they're absolutely assuredly was as it related to the White House meeting and this September seventh call and the September nine text occurred after the press reports that is after the press reports that president trump was conditioning military aid on investigations of this political rival Zach. Correct yes and it also. This text occurred after ambassador. sunlen relayed president. Trump's message to presidents. Alinsky sqi Mr Goldman. The Investigative Committee receive any other evidence relevant to the credibility. The president's assertion that there was us no quid pro quo. We received a lot of evidence. And all of the evidence points to the fact that there was a quid pro quo. I recognize myself for five minutes. Lieutenant Colonel Kinman listened to the president's call and testified that when president trump asked Ukraine for a favor it wasn't the friendly request it was really a demand. I'm going to direct your attention to this slide about Lieutenant Colonel Vin. Men's testimony. Why did he say the president's favor was a demand he said because the power disparity between the United States as the greatest power in the in the world and Ukraine crane which is so dependent on the United States not just for the military assistance but for all of its support made such a request effectively a demand because presidents Alinsky could not rian reality? Say No am I correct that this vast power disparity exists in part because Ukraine has been then at war with Russia since Russia invaded five years ago and over. Thirteen thousand of the Ukraine. People have died is that correct yes and not only does the. US provide ten percent of their military budget but the United States is a critical ally in rallying other countries to support Ukraine rain. Europe actually gives four or five European Union gives. I think four times as much money as the United States overall to Ukraine so president trump knew that the Ukrainian president back was against the wall and presidents alinsky needed. US validation and support. Is that right now. According to the US ambassador order to the Ukraine and we have ambassador. Taylor's testimony up there. It wasn't until after ambassador. Sunland told the Ukrainians that there would be a quote. Stalemate stalemate end quote on the that's Alinsky agreed to announce the investigations that president trump was demanding. Correct that's right. Yes okay. And furthermore the committee heard testimony that the Ukrainians felt they had quote no choice but to but to comply with President. Trump's demands correct. That's right yes. Even after the aid was released in fact when asked in front of President trump in September hambur whether he felt pressured presidents Alinsky said quote. I'm sorry but I don't want to be involved to democratic open elections elections of the USA and quote is that that sounds right. If you're reading the quote yes okay now. The president and some of his defenders here have tried to excuse his misconduct conduct by pointing to statements from the Ukraine president that he was not under pressure to give in to president. Trump's demand did your investigative committees consider those statements statements by presidents Alinsky. We did and we found that. The statements of what is effectively a an extortion victim are not particularly securely relevant to the actual truth of the matter because presidents. Alinsky cannot in reality for the same reasons that he's he interpreted the request to be a demand and he can't go out and say that he did feel pressure because that would potentially upset president trump. And they're so dependent on the relationship with President trump in the United States. What one could almost say it's similar to a hostage testifying under duress? It is certainly a direct would be a good word so so when the president made these statements and up to and including today his country was still under attack by Russia. Still hadn't gotten a meeting at the White House and still still needed aid from the United States. Correct that's right and David. Holmes testified very I think persuasively about the importance of the White House meeting end of the relationship to Ukraine even after the aid was lifted including pointing. Today when President Putin and presidents Alinsky met to discuss the war in the East I saw the evidence is clear. The president trump knew. He had the power to force Ukraine's hand and took advantage of that desperation and abuse the powers of his office by using using our tax payer dollars basically to get what he wanted right. Yes and what's really important here and I think it has to be clarified. Is that the president. The evidence showed wrote that the president directly said to ambassador Sunland that there was a quid pro quo with the security assistance. And there's been some debate debate and discussion about that but that is one thing that the evidence shows based on the Morrison testimony the Taylor testimony the Sunland testimony and the texts. So that's very important to understand that whatever we want to say about hearsay or whatever that is direct evidence gentleman from Virginia Mister. Klenge Mr Cassar did the Democrats impeachment report rely on hearsay to support their assertions. Yes it did. How many times were you able to find a service based on hearsay we? We went through and counted over fifty instances of Geeky facs. Can you give us some of the examples of hearsay being relied on by Jordi to make their case. You know one one of the a lot of the information for example that Ambassador Taylor was communicating He very diligently recorded notes about what some the various officials told him. But it was about you know is one in two steps removed from the actual fact. And that's that's the problem with say it's a whisper down the lane situation and if some of the people that are doing the whisper predisposed not like president trump. Then then then what what. They're whispering down. The Lane becomes even more distorted. Did you also find instances where the Democrats report US witnesses speculations and presumptions and and the biggest one of course and this is sort of become the big daddy of the hearing his.