Sandra Bland, America, Malcolm Glad discussed on The Chuck ToddCast: Meet the Press
There's no one who can help you see the world through someone else's eyes quite like author Malcolm Glad. Well Malcolm sat down with me and September eleventh. Shortly before his book talking to strangers was released he was moved to write as he watched racial. Tensions play out across the country spurred word on by the death of African American Sandra Bland and was all after a routine traffic stop. Here's an excerpt of our conversation. Let me do what I'm supposed to be doing here. which just talking about your book a little bit okay? I will say this what I thought the book would be and of course after reading it was for two different things. The first thing I thought of maybe dismay tell you more about me and where my head is at talking to strangers. How finally he's GonNa blow up Social Media and yet I don't mention the word social media in the entire powerbook? There's another word you don't mention the entire book. I WanNa talk to you later later because I feel like you're writing tools for us to interpret this. This said entity that is not mentioned in the book but it is interesting to me that it what the cover is and what the book is our. What what the what the tidal Heidel told me and what the book is where two different things? I don't know if you tend to that or not. I don't think intended I didn't you know I I. I really was funny as I really really really just wanted to write about Santa Bland. I mean that is really. Why did that happen and figuring out if you unlock that you'll unlock everything else? It's not a metaphor and it's not a it's actually what the books about. Only I thought the best way to write about her was to go on these aggressions about Amanda Knox Bernie Madoff for Jerry Sandusky Sadowski. Or what have you but I really really really did. I think you know the it all began. I read a book by Frank. Zimring criminologist And figure out how many people are killed every year civilians are killed every year by law enforcement. And if there's to suck up to more. I thought Jay Ferguson Pot. The Ferguson episode people on the right side need to hear it to you know particularly in the left because it was you you you showcased how people are only listening with one ear but it was a brilliant episode anyway And he was trying to figure out so the first half of his book is trying to figure what that number is in surprisingly. It's hard you would think we would know that number and you have to like do a million calculations and we don't even keeping track of this and then then he realizes he's size it's about a thousand people a here and then he says is that higher low relative to other countries and the answer is it's way way way way way I and he's like well. Why is it so high and I found this book? I read this book like years ago. Before I really started the book my book I find incredibly riveting and distress as riveting and distressing a book written as I've read about America in a very very long time it was. It was an explicitly kind of indictment of America. But it was you. You couldn't read it and walk away feeling good about your country and it is and so and then along comes Sandra Bland. And it's like okay. It's time to make try and make sense of this phenomenon because he struggles a little bit with With the why he has a bunch of reasons but it is a little mysterious that there's something about relationships between civilians and law enforcement in this country that are good and that have tragic consequence when I was listening to your podcast on this and going through it. Michael Brown did not respect the authorities because the authorities had earned his respect and earned the communities respect respect and it made me think about just basic things we do with policing why do why does everybody have a if you're a driver. You have an instinctive distrust of a cop because you think they're gonNA come get you catch you and even if you do something wrong you think they might catch. I almost wonder if the worst thing we ever did to the perception of cops and the relationship between civilian and law enforcement was a speed trap. I don't know and I know that it's a simplistic way but it made me wonder. Have we just screwed up all of this. We've well I've always thought I always think that what's troubling is a bad. A bad message is in certain cities. It's worth others like in Boston. It's bad intel. It's bad you have these. SUV's painted black with huge. Like Doc Those bars on the front. What do they call those bull-bars? Okay sure I am. We're looks like they're ready to ram through a riot. It looks like they're the paramilitary. Hey vehicles that's not a good look for when you realize what police really are. In the modern age there are certain there are social service agency and mostly what they're doing is comforting people who are who have some kind of emotional or physical trauma right. They're not that you know people shooting each other. It's a tiny tiny honey part of their job. Most of their job is is essentially being kind of it's an emt it's the same job as an emt responding to an emergency but this might be a mental emergency or yeah it's a convert whatever it is a it's dealing with people who are troubled right and so why if you if that's what your job is and by the way legitimately your job. Why do you have a vehicle? That makes it look like you're a commando yeah I don't I think it's just not I haven't. I wish I could remember it in in this small town in Canada where I grew up the police have a motto which is so hilariously Canadian. It's basically I don't remember what it is exactly but it's basically here to hug you and hold you. I mean it's something I mean. It's so hilarious Canadian but that that's the guy I'm afraid eight of showing you a recruitment a television ad for the C. P. B. that they're running on college football games in this country. Let's just say it isn't about welcoming right and immigrants to America It is a much different message that they're sending look I. I grew up in Miami and right after first riots. They had the police officers football applecarts to kids. As a way of trying to fix their problem I remember that was an attempt but at least they were trying. Yeah at least at least they were trying something. I've just say going going through this and you're different examples of not being able to catch a spy. Basically our inability to find out if people are lying we can and you come to the conclusion number one. The biggest conclusion I came to is the worst way to figure out. If someone's lying is by looking them in the eye yes exactly and and and so how the hell talk to strangers. If you can't get the truth by looking them in the eye so I I become a a radical on this. I now increasingly the opinion that you should only do face to face encounters when there are consequences involved. We're doing face to counter. We have seen all the consequences. Well so yeah so the stakes here are really low. We're not knowing you know we're we're just trying to be entertaining. So but if there are stakes were real. I think you should avoid them face to face encounters whenever possible so for example. Here's one that many investors follow this principle I know a number of Serious people in the investment community who make a point of not meeting the executives in person of the companies they invested. They think it's too then taken they don't take into see they know these orchestra the the idea as a musician. I cared about that a lot. You WanNa know. Oh that just your music is being judged so you put up a screen and you. Don't see the people just as just as orchestras do that when they're picking perspective perspective in employees physicians these these investors say you someone is a CEO by virtue of in many cases there compelling personality compelling personality is unrelated to the investment quality of the of the company. Don't take risk I've met a CEO who's just that way. It's just like that guy can say anything and he was failures. Yeah Yeah so stay so. But now I've got even further so in job interviews in general. Should we meet the person if they don't have an explicit social function in the job so they're selling perfume on the ground floor of Saxe you've got to meet Yup Yup that matters. Let's take us take them off the table. You're hiring a researcher. Do you need to meet them. I I don't know and yet I can't tell you. Here's here's one paranoia. I want to know they exist. I could talk on the phone okay. I'm only being facetious here. We live in a day and age if we are going to see created personas and things as long as journalism another question so this is one of my favorite questions your I. I'm as I WANNA ask you to do a a comprehensive profile of a public figure I had two options unlimited access to the figure him or herself or no access to the subject and unlimited access assist to the subjects friends co workers. I want no access to the person that one I want all the information. I don't want their version of events percent so why not win in hiring whatever the same you're right you're right. You're wrong if we about to do an ad I don't have for one of the job boards sites we're about to. I think we're actually with the copy right now. Somehow Chuck and Malcolm just read our copy you know and we're making nothing off of this. I guess I get that well certainly Neville Chamberlain should have never seen Hitlerite. I I mean do we think of Neville Chamberlain just trades telegrams with Hitler and says is your intention acts. My intention is just this okay. Well we believe the telegram. Well so what he really should have stayed home and finished my comp yes Right after the ending which is what Churchill did Churchill. Never met Hitler Church Redmond COMP and took it seriously so the man has written a manifesto of many many hundreds of pages in which he he lays out in excruciating detail his vision for the world one would think that should be rated very highly in any analysis of Hitler. The problem with beating someone face to face is not that that information is useless is that we overvalue it so you end up saying you. You're not it's like they have the look are is. The president. Loves to say the look. What does that mean? I was going to year. Basket- Basketball Fan. Yeah Yeah I is a great story along these lines. Quite Leonard is being drafted like twenty years old. The Seattle has the pick to. They could take them and they do a pre-draft interview with him and he comes in and he's so nervous he sweats his shirt and saddle Seattle. GM says says. I don't want to. I don't want someone who is not cool under pressure now. They're just principle. No one is cooler under pressure and quiet turns earns out thousand percent percent. But secondly here's what he does is he overrated. You know we have a huge amount of data on Kauai. We have tape of every game. He's ever played eight and what happens. Is He meets off the basketball court where he's uncomfortable where he's wearing a suit which he's not accomplish. He's nineteen or the twentieth and what happens the GM ends up overrating that information and undervaluing the Chili relevant information and that is a very weekdays classic human tendency to it's not. It's that that the problem with gathering information is you don't assign appropriate weights to it. And and that's I think is what's going on with a lot of this when we're the reason we're so fooled by like made off have a chapter on. They have a theory about right which people get fooled easily. Oh Tummy they are used to exclusively So it makes sense that. I just think think that there's a reason why you see wealthy. I get why made off was able to. I think he's able to. Hey I'm I only take a small group of people while while they people want to believe I believe there are no clue. I think I think that there are ways to oh you can tap tap in their egos narcissism and that is what made off did so. Well I always love with the person I feel like we're we're sort of hovering around him. The person that is not mentioned in your book at all likes to Brag how he wasn't taken by made off now it may be. He had no money to invest to actually give him actual cash into that but I believe made off succeeded by playing to the ego off the ivy elite small and all of that. I have a parallel rich person. Actually not why rich people specifically but why entrepreneurs are easily taken skin and that is that they have to so. I talked about this in book. This notion that we are hardwired to trust. And there's a good reason for that because it's easier easier to. I'm about to say the thoroughness in here. I feel like we're getting but But if you're an entrepreneur you're that in spades. You cannot successfully start start a company from scratch or or start any kind of massive grid from scratch unless you are a kind of master trustor. You're you have trust almost to excess. You can't funny. You Talk to real entrepreneurs people really take and they will tell you. They make enormous bats on people without doing. They don't have time energy whatever to do. They don't have a seven people to how to interview to find the person that they need to run the office. They just I literally. I like that person. Just do whatever it is or I'll come and Julia right..