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"Tactics in the public hearings this week. HEY MSNBC listeners. It's me Chuck Rosenberg this week on the both the former deputy director of the FBI and the former head of the TSA John Pistol Nine. Eleven was a forcing mechanism to respond. And do things in partnership within the Federal Government and the US intelligence community in particular. John had a remarkable career and federal law enforcement rising through the ranks of the FBI as a special agent to become becoming longest-serving. Deputy Director in History John went on to run the Transportation Security Administration where his vast experience and innovative thinking brought needed reform to this big and important government agency. We need to do more thorough pat down so we can find an underwear bomb. Well that's that's kind of a controversial Ursel invasive process. Join me for that conversation with John. Pistol the former F. B. I. Deputy Director and the former head of the Transportation Security Administration. That's this week on. MSNBC's the oath available now wherever you get your podcasts. What is John John Bolton up to and what is Mick Mulvaney up to mick? Mulvaney tried to join a lawsuit brought by John. Bolton and another subpoenaed witness to the impeachment investigation the bulletin lawsuit is unprecedented. Unprecedented and unnecessary. It is asking a court to decide whether Bolton should comply with a congressional subpoena or whether he should follow Donald Trump's request that that he not just by John Bolton as a private citizen now lives beyond control of the president of the United States and there is no legal reason for him to evade that Subpoena Mick Mulvaney dropped his legal attempt today to join the Bolton Lawsuit After Bolton objected to Mick Mulvaney joining his lawsuit Mick Mulvaney says he will allow file lawsuits asking the same question to a judge in both cases. These are delaying tactics designed to slow down the impeachment investigation but chairman. Adam Schiff says they will not committee will not engage in a month's long legal pursuit to enforce the congressional subpoenas of these witnesses but the investigation investigation will take a negative inference from Mick Mulvaney as refusal to testify on the assumption that if Mick Mulvaney had something helpful to say about Donald Trump anything helpful to say about Donald Trump. He would testify and therefore his refusal to testify can be taken as a negative inference against president trump. The first news reports of John Bolton's memorable John Bolton's inevitable book appeared this weekend and viewers of this program new. The John Bolton was working on a book deal the day he left the trump White House since I announced it here on this program. I'm that night because it was wicked. Obvious reports indicate that John Bolton is getting a two million dollar advance from for his book from Simon and Schuster in order to get a book advanced like that the author has to tell the publisher. What the publisher is paying for what the publisher is getting? Therefore there there are people at Simon Schuster. Tonight in midtown Manhattan already know what John Bolton is refusing to tell the impeachment investigation instigation journey. Discussion is Chris. Liu who served as a senior White House aide to President Obama before that he was deputy chief counsel of the House Oversight Committee and John Holliman is back with us. Chris Lewis I want to get your reaction to this legal maneuver that we've never seen before I've got a correct congressional subpoena China. I'm going to bring a lawsuit to ask a judge what I do with it. I think it's fair to say none of this is on the level Lawrence. I mean this is the case of Mick Mulvaney wanting thing to avoid being held in contempt of Congress wanting to delay the proceedings but only willing to abide by the court's ruling if it goes in his favor and so what he's doing really is trying to serrate congressional oversight during my eight years on the House oversight committee part of it was during the Clinton administration we took depositions of senior Clinton administration aides aides. When I managed President Obama's Cabinet Eric holder testified on the hill fast and furious? Hillary Clinton testified about Benghazi. So this idea at the White House. Aides never testified is completely at odds with precedent. And if it's taken to its logical extreme it just completely wipes out Congress's ability to do any kind of oversight and let's not forget the most important point if there's any kind of executive privilege Mick Mulvaney. He's already waited. You'll recall. He stood up in that White House. Press briefing room. Any basically admitted that there was a quid pro quo so again as you correctly point out. If he had something good to say he would be out there saying right now John as we know. Oh two million dollar book advance for John Bolton means he's telling People Book Agent Book at Hers Pitching the material that he's is refusing to tell the Congress yes. I think it's likely that you and I know some of these people. If we went out with the proper implements we'd probably extract his permission them tonight. If we were hard hitting enough about it I think the question bold right now. It's tricky one. We assume let's assume the following through on the base of some of the testimony. Today it does seem as though Bolton was with those people those professionals who looked at this and said this is likely illegal it looks like golden waiting at various points in order to get that eight me released he he is. We all have for our views about job bulletins about politics ideology but it seems in this case. At least he recognize him the legal payroll that was in play here and try to do the right thing if for no other reason to save his own skin now. The question is what is economic interest in. There's two competing things here. Being a hero in this case is probably is economic interest in terms of selling books a a reading public. That thought. The did the right thing. Kim telling that story we'd probably be sell a lot of books. Unfortunately become a hero in the story requires them to testify and if he testifies it gives away some of the stuff that would be the news the book so he's got a very tricky thing to try to figure out here. How'd you land this plane? In the way that drives the most interest gives away some but not everything that he knows so the book is not drainable of its value by testimony the The book Chris quite predictably as I said the first night he when he left if the White House is scheduled for publication before the presidential election because of course if Donald Trump would lose the book value collapses. Right away But and so does a book like this to get cleared. The Way James Comey's book had to get cleared because he worked in the FBI. Since you you know since Bolton works on national security issues is there clearance process for that and can the trump administration simply refused to clear well Lawrence. There's actually two issues. One is the clearance issue shoe. If there's classified information information that might implicate classified information. That's in there. The other important thing was you'll recall trump administration officials apparently signed a non disclosure confidentiality agreement. which trump is selectively enforce or? Try To enforce against some folks including this anonymous book. That just came out and so so it will be interesting to see how this all plays out. I suspect John Bolton probably realizes on the non disclosure agreement that's not really enforceable it's never been enforceable against anybody and I know he's probably smart enough guy to actually at this point understand what is classified and what's not classified and we'll probably stayed abroad outlines when the book deal is introduced in court art in the Bolton Lawsuit. I'm sure the judge is going to have a a lot of even more reluctance to take the Bolton case serious. Yes that's probably right and look I think. Thank you know one of the things that Chris I think we are all under the impression that people signed these. NDA's has been claimed certainly beginning administration is through. The trump tried to get everyone to sign. I'm not sure everyone. When did side and Bolton came in relatively late to the administration so it's not clear that they were being that they were being as as rigorous about trying to get everyone to sign? NDA's and. I'm certain that John Bolton knows that it's the most the history of the world. So there's no I think that's the one is meaningless. I think the other one is our ultimate question for him in terms of the White House screening issue on on on talks about. If we're going to have to break it there. Chris Liu John Howland. Thank you both for joining us and when we come back Republican chaos."