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At his at his famous slash infamous press conference a couple of weeks ago. You know. I think the Democrats are making a choice here. which I don't know is necessarily the right choice? There are two witnesses uses who could really talk about what Donald Trump himself said about the relationship with Ukraine because they are the ones who saw him every day. Remember the Republican defense. Here is that all these lower level witnesses are just hearsay witnesses. Will you Mick Mulvaney. The Chief of staff and John Bolton the national security adviser and both of them have refused to testify so far their legal position is somewhat different but in fact they have said they're not going to testify absent a court order the the the as you heard from Congressman Heck. They're not going to court art. They are simply think they have enough without these two witnesses. Maybe they do maybe they don't I don't know I mean that's a big sacrifice to give up those two witnesses he says Danny Heck says we're not going to play rope a dope basically. He said that four times. I don't know if it's time it's timing. It's time this is weeks or months yes it it is. Obviously it's their mind but you could also do two things at once. I mean you you could pursue this case while you are. I mean the the Intelligence Committee Mitty hearing is is next week and probably the week after you're going to have hearings before the Judiciary Committee sometime later in December. I don't know why you give up on these witnesses without even trying to expedite a court hearing I mean maybe it is too slow. Maybe and maybe they're too risky. I mean maybe they think these witnesses will turn turn on them. I just think if you want to know the facts you you would really want to hear from and Bolton on the very day that there are a lot finger pointing the direction and Mick Mulvaney there's a story of the Washington Post was suggest that some Republicans might make Mulvaney Giuliani sunlen befall guys here. Here we talked about this morning and I've been thinking and and when I called you in the morning no when we were on television this morning and I've been thinking about it a lot since we talked about it and I do think that there is a muddying the water strategy that this White House has been very effective at using. We saw the music during the Mueller investigation. We've seen the music through all sorts of other. Controversies controversies where they're basics position. It's proven right over and over again is people aren't really paying that much attention to the voters aren't paying that much. Attention the details so if we just handle it that way it's it's okay. It's so much harder to do that here. There's the president on the in the transcript of the call with Celeski and one thing I'm really struck by. which is that Giuliani tweet? This didn't get Looked at much but Giuliani when he tweeted that he had hired a lawyer. He tweeted right before he tweeted. The name of the lawyer The lawyers ears That he was doing this at the for essentially at the direction of his client That was very specific. Wording that was not in the general interest of my client and that was leading it right back to the president so I think this is going to get more complicated than they might anticipate. Let's talk about John Bolton for a second Jeffrey because you brought him up also the National National Security Advisor this to me strange in tantalizing but strange because is tantalizing letter from Bolton's lawyer saying he's got relevant things to say. If you WANNA go have a judge say he has to testify. Why dangle that I don't understand why he's dangling that in front of Congress well you know he is is in a different legal position than the lower level White House? Aides who have testified if the executive privilege exists at all it probably probably does exist for people at the level of National Security Advisor and Chief of staff and so Charles Cooper his lawyer who is someone who's very knowledgeable eligible about these subjects. I mean he said look you know we just want a court to decide this. We don't want to be in the position of making this decision. We will abide Bide Bhai whatever the courts decide now he could simply take a risk and just go ahead and testify. But he doesn't want to do that. I it's an unusual legal strategy. So the lawyers call it Interp- leader where you basically say. I'll do whatever you want judge but I'm not I'm not following. I'm I'm not taking a position. That's where he's going but in fact the way the Democrats are proceeding. It means. He's not gonNA test. You can do all those things legally Maggie without how this letter announcing to the world. I know things that's the Porta that seems strange to me. I had the same reaction you do. I didn't I don't understand the significance from a legal perspective him doing that. I do think perhaps and again I'm guessing here but I think it puts the White House and the president on some notice reminding them that he knows a lot that he could be sharing. I think that it you know again. Go back to what we said about early on Mulvaney. It's not lost on them. All that they could become scapegoats and I suspect that they are going to make clear Why why that isn't so all right? Jeffrey stand by much more to discuss. We have president trump's reaction to this ready steady drumbeat of of testimony. That was released this week. And we're GONNA talk to an adviser to four different presidents Republican and Democratic about the role that presidents chiefs of staff play in all.