United States, Syria, Europe discussed on Overnight re-air of day's programming
So the idea is that he was not serious at all in all these three forms. He was just using them to do a PR campaign, and he succeeded. For some time in the west until the gruesome killing of casualty came along. And a lot of people got shocked, and they needed a lot of time to realize who this guy is so up to our who'd with Georgetown University school of foreign service. We we should not allow another Saddam Hussein in the region. We we've not have to wait so long to realize that this guy is bad for the locals instead Arabia for the region. He he kept this about destabilizing the region, he put I mean for God's sake, you put a prime minister of foreign country. I mean Lebanon under house arrest in the into seventeen he cuts relations with Canada over a tweet. And he waged war, humid, the worst humanitarian were probably contributed history in Yemen. Just to you know. Do some interest that we're really not a factual. He I mean, the war did not succeed in any way. So would these practices abroad and inside set labia is really dangerous to put all the of the American interests and a national and international interest in the one basket of India's. So let's let's quickly. We have about a seven minutes before we go to questions. So I'd like you all to address quite briefly each of you in a couple of sentences. What are the ways that these kinds of actions are affecting not only the countries where they're happening? I think there's a tendency to think, okay. What can we really do about this when we're talking about US interest? We can't worry too much about what's happening domestically in these countries. But but are there ways in which these detention systems are actually affecting other countries US interests US goals US allies? And global norms. There's a lot of ways I think that this affects us here in the United States and our allies in Europe and elsewhere. Just a couple of examples when it comes to Syria for one. There are our citizens that get caught up in these horrible detention centers. I think that's at regime, probably has the very least half a dozen American citizens being held right now at least one and he's killed one could data who's a twenty six year old girl. Born and raised in Chicago that was tortured to death and murdered in sight. As far as information that we have in the actually told her family about this officially said regime. It shows that mound of impunity that they have. So our own citizens are getting caught up in these horrible. Torture dungeons in Syria. For example, the other way that it affects us there are over ten million displaced internally and externally in Syria as a result of the war. And one of at one point. I think the head of air force intelligence Hudson mentions that they're like three million or arrest warrants out. If you're in Europe and everybody all the series in Europe and elsewhere are yearning to go back home. Everybody wants to be home. They don't want to be refugees, but the thought of returning and being one of those three million arrest warrants, or that an arbitrary checkpoint will will stop you for whatever reason. Also makes it very difficult for any of them to ever consider returning to the country. And so we ever want the hopes of allowing refugees to repatriate which will help sort of the political situation in Europe and counter sort of the rise of extreme right-wing parties and others that have come as a result of these big refugee flows. We must make sure that this is an allowed to go on without any accountability. And so those are two of many other ways that I think it affects us here at home, including giving propaganda extremists and others that can point to the evidence that's out there in the fact that the international community has done nothing about it. Even when it's their own citizens. He's so besides the obvious, you know, very visual immigration impact that we can see around the world with regards to Iran this behavior of political hostage taking which arguably we could say they sort of. Founded the modern version nineteen Seventy-nine has has taken off in other countries around the world. Egypt those Turkey. Does it Jason resign? Saudi Arabia recently a couple of Americans prisoner that are still being. Yes. This recently, April, I think in relation to Saudi Arabia. The lack of consequences for all these things that we've talked about you. Traditionally we could rely on the US government to stand up and hold foreign regimes accountable. That hasn't happened in these past few months shockingly too many of us, and I think that green lights terrible behavior among dictators in other parts of the world. I think we're seeing in the treatment of journalists and others as far away as south, South Pacific and Philippines in Mexico and everywhere in between. It's not just indicates of Sarabia. It's not just the US administration is silent is it's actually that can be it's one of the. Nain factor of envious rising to power in the first place. When Rex Tillerson met with with NBA steals too few days before the before the removal of NBN the previous conference and before the cross Scotland before a lotta lotta crises that were started because of India's the idea is that how how how the how the Saudi foreign policy and local policy affects the world is really huge. It's it's a key ally in the region get sexually. I mean, just look at the case of jemele hashtag g they have been. They have the long arm. They dared to go outside silvery again to bring somebody and if when they failed they did not even bother. They just killed the guy inside the consulate in a foreign. Soil, and they did not stop there. They hacked the cell phone of my friend activist disease in Canada. They now there are new reports of three people, including one in the US who have been targeted and have been told by the way that they have been targeted by the government. So with the are reaching out tried Arabia. They are affecting the world. And what's puzzling is how the world reacts to such behavior. I think that's a perfect segue. Now, we'd like to invite members to join our conversation with your questions, and please MacKenzie has the microphone there, and there's a microphone here if you could introduce yourself when you ask your question that would be great live at the council on foreign relations WCS PFM, Washington. This is she's spread radio programming from Monday doubled. UCSB? I'm Charles brower lawyer, and since nineteen Eighty-three I've been a judge of the Iran United States claims tribunal in the Hague by appointment of I the Reagan administration and the Clinton administration. I'm curious as to what the results is perceived to be on neighboring states the machine. Hutter? Sort of flow have a flow affect their noticed Kuwait. I would add to that. Would you like to address that? And I think Jason well, I mean, I think that we've seen in Bahrain, obviously, the most obvious signs of the spillover, and it's abolish house situation and has been for several years. I don't know much about Qatar and Kuwait, internal dynamics, but if you go back, and look I mean, the the ties between all of these countries goes back centuries, and they're hard to break and often they're not conducted in the same sort of. Modern ways that we do. I mean, there's a lot of transmigration of people from each one of these countries to the other and. By boat. And I think we saw an instance of it just today. Those are dangerous waters and. I don't have specifics on the other countries. It's finished toward the Gulf. Oman has been always closer to Iran was said that brokered a lot of like relationship between the west and mushroom countries. Iran, the past and and. Kuwait was less friendly to Iran used to be less friendly. But after the. Gulf crisis, the quadrajet Egypt Sarabia behind UI pushed a further to be closer to Iran. So that's that's Canada, the dynamics in India Gulf. Yes. I'm Tom Miller. I'm chairman of the board of the international commission on missing persons. My question is about the international criminal trade. I don't know. I see in specifically on Syria. You know, one one would think that Assad would be totally not concerned about this with what has been happening in Sudan lately. And the fact that sure Bush are is is now in jail, and I don't think it's inconceivable that at some point they could turn him over could you talk a little bit about or crimes and the ICC. Absolutely. So I'm not going to ask about him Bs. I'm sorry. I mean, if you wanna talk about it, and I'm not going to really ask about the Iranians. So in in terms of dicey for civil for Searcy is not signatory to the ICC. So we need to UN Security Council referral and the Russians vetoed possibility every time. And so what's been relied upon? There was there's an effort. Where where people that are displaced into like Jordan, for example, that is I think signatory's I see that there could be a way to do that. But that would need Jordanians to go along with it, which I don't think will happen. And so that leaves us only with the options of countries with universal jurisdiction or dual. Nationalities. And this is an effort that that there's been a lot of amazing people working on it. And I think Caesar and his colleagues Sammy who was with him throughout his experience have have been key witnesses to some of these national cases that have been approached. So there's an investigation investigation France based on to nationals that were tortured to death. There is there's a case in Sweden that was more recently opened under universal jurisdiction. But I also know that there are Swedish citizens that were tortured to that. But it's very. Always as you know. And you know, when it comes to people speaking out, they have the rest of their extended family in Syria and so on. So it's always hard to get the the witnesses and. There's a huge black hole and taking care of the families of victims and witnesses that are key to these prosecutions in Germany. I think that's where we've had the most. A lot of success in in that case HR is is a law firm that had been working on behalf of former detainees that became refugees to Germany Germany has universal jurisdiction. If it finds that it's within the state's national interests to pursue the case. And finally in Spain. Is the case as well. Based on a lady whose whose brother was tortured to death in Syria. So the only way there is no there is no is not an option. There's no sort of ad hoc tribunal that's out there. And so it's just been we've been reliant on on some of these national prosecutions, and and I also believe that the United States is another place where we're case can be open. Whether it's Marie Colvin majority lists that was targeted and killed or whether it is they learn other Americans continue to be held there. But it is very frustrating to see that there is an international court that can take this. And that doesn't have the fear that, you know, the same fate as Bashir, and what's also really heartbreaking is the Caesar photos. Fifty five thousand photos, just the numbers, and the pictures they were released cropped released for people to try to identify their loved ones at least have some closure. And when steriods call know somebody calls me and says, okay, that's my sister. Obviously, she was tortured to death. Please. What court can we open? We want Justice. I have to ask what does she happen to be also Canadian or European, and it's almost a reminder to the Syrians that their lives are just not worth as much as other people whereas most of with the Syrian emergency task force. You don't mind I worked on this recently in Europe as part of my rural fellowship research travel, and and Bernard the countries, you mentioned, there's also a case opened in Australia, and they're trying to work in more countries. This is actually a very impressive effort in the sense that it involves the incredible resilience of survivors and relatives of the dead and missing and some of the lawyers involved in our Syrian human rights lawyers. Who are also survivors. It's great to see these people taking agency and trying to work on this. And what they say is that this is better than nothing. Of course, it's not going to immediately to rest, but it has led to some specific consequences. There have been three arrests one person in France to Germany who had fled as refugees, but were accused of being part of the torture apparatus. So there's actually been arrested. There's been an arrest warrant should Jimmy Hessman who's the head of air force intelligence and my little quiz, we head of intelligence security overall. So previously was traveling to Italy and other places it was trying to travel to other places in Europe to have counterterrorism discussions to try to sell the aside.