Derek, Apple, Steve Jobs discussed on Wisdom From The Top
That I had and really focus on the management side of things. And from what I understand, this is really where you began to understand this idea that you call superstars versus rockstars, which was goes back to this earlier experience you had a juice with Derek, which is you kind of never really gave as much. I might be mangling this, but you didn't you early in your career you seemed to be dismissive of people who weren't interested in kind of moving up the hierarchy, right? And at Apple, you learn that actually you need a combination of those people to be successful. Yeah, absolutely. There was a leader at Apple. I remember talking to her, and she said, you know, you really have to manage people who are in superstar mode, very differently from people who are in rockstar mode. And I thought what in the world are you talking about? What's the difference? And she explained to me, people, when they're in superstar mode, are they're gunning for the next job. They may not even be on your team very long because they're on a super steep growth trajectory. But people when they're in rockstar mode, they're doing excellent work, but they're not necessarily gunning for the next job. And if you give it to them, you'll screw everything up. You know, they don't want they don't want your job, they don't want your boss's job, they don't want to be Steve Jobs. They just want to do a great job. And that was when that was a big aha moment. And that was the moment when I realized how badly I had screwed up with Derek. Because people when they are in superstar mode, you want to make sure, first of all, you want to make sure that you've got redundancy because it's almost shooting star. They may not be with you very long. And you want to make sure that you are giving them new challenges, opportunities for growth that you know how you're going to get them the promotions or whatnot that they long for. But when people are in rockstar mode, and we're all in both modes, by the way, I try to, it's very tempting to label people. You're a superstar. You're a rockstar, but we're all both at different points in our career. Very often at companies. Managers save up all the highest ratings for the people who are gunning for a promotion, which means you're giving lower ratings to people in rockstar mode than they deserve. And that's not fair, because all of us at certain points in our lives have big things going on outside of work that demand and deserve a fair amount of attention. And it's very hard to be on a steep growth trajectory and dealing with those things at the same time. Your latest book is called just work, get shit done fast and fair. And I want to use this as an opportunity to leap off into a question around the new generation of people in the workforce. Now I am, I'm a gen xer and I think you are too. And I remember when I started out in the workforce, it was sort of the boomers were dominating everything. And they would say things like, oh, you guys are all in a hurry. You just want to, you know, you don't want to wait your turn. You don't want to pay your dues, and I remember hearing that and feeling frustrated or they would say, you know, you demand all this feedback. Now I hear my cohorts saying that about the same things about the new, but my question is, is it different or is it just basically the same story being repeated again in this generation? Yeah, you know, I really believe that it is the job of the younger generation to challenge the older generation. This is how we make progress as humanity. I do think one thing is different, which is that very young people are accomplishing incredible things in ways that they didn't, I think earlier. There weren't as many billionaire or CEOs. And I think that's a good thing. I think people's career paths can take off and almost a vertical way now. And you don't have to sit around and pay your dues. But why should we sit around and like paying dues like, what is that about? So my son the other day at the dinner table, quoted, I thought he made it up, but he told me later he was quoting a meme. He had seen on YouTube. He said, tradition is just peer pressure from dead people. And I thought that was really important. We've got to be willing to see things new. And to listen to the feedback from our young employees, because there's a lot of wisdom in it. So when you're asked by companies to come in and help them navigate expectations from new employees around what a work environment should be like. For example, you know, 15, 20 years ago, companies maybe not Google, but companies like Google will talk about the employees of family or family. That's really at a fashion now. Now it's like, no, no, we're not a family. We come here. You pay me money. I will do the best job I can do. And then I will leave when my day is done. And that's very different from because I remember when I began my career, the advice I was given was, hey, you want to succeed, be the first one in and the last one out. Make sure everybody sees you when they get in and make sure everybody sees you when they're leaving. And I did that. But that's not advice I would give to somebody today because that's not we're living in a very different environment. Yeah, yeah, and I, for one, don't do my best work when I when I'm exhausted and working too many hours. So I think you know I think in tech at least there are times when work can go. It's almost worse than the old family thing. People are eating breakfast lunch and dinner at work. They go to the gym at work, all their friends are at work. Instead of going out to a bar, the bar is in the office. And I think that's unhealthy. I think that it is really important to leave work. I also think it's important for managers to leave space for different ways that people like to work. There are people who do work really well, 80 hours a week. I am not one of them. I can not work. I will not be productive if I'm expected to work. Even 40 hours a week is a lot. Give me 30 please. But I can do great work. And so I think part of our job as leaders, especially in this new hybrid environment, is to give space for people to work in the way that works for them. One of the most talented people who worked on my team at Google, he really needed two months off every year. He needed to go travel and take pictures and trank a lot or I don't know what he did, but he needed to take two months off a year. But in those ten months, when he was there, nobody was more productive. And so I realized it was my job to sort of navigate the bureaucracy of the company to make it possible for him to get what he needed in order to be maximally productive, the other ten months. And so I think figuring this out is going to be really important,.