Facebook, Francis Haugen, Instagram discussed on BTV Simulcast


This whistleblower Francis haugen who has exposed some very uncomfortable tools about research that Facebook did on itself What's been your reaction to her revelations So good for her for coming forward Good for Facebook for doing the research Bad for not like well you did the research She discovered some things that were harmful What are you doing about it It doesn't matter the fact that you say well you know maybe it's complicated or difficult It's once you discover something that is really potentially very dangerous and damaging What we should now hear from the company is and here's when we saw these reports here's the stuff we started doing Here's the way we started making tradeoffs against what might otherwise be on our interest engagement revenue whatever in order to solve these problems And that's what you want to see from companies in leadership So you're disappointed I'm disappointed Why Well because anything it's okay to have done the internal research and not reported it That's okay because like look yeah this is a problem we're fixing it But you then start the work streams to fix it Right And so one hand you say well we have these reports in this issue And what do we do We disbanded the civics integrity group You're like well that doesn't seem like you're working on it It doesn't seem like the problem is fixed So I think it's beholden on business leaders to say look when we hit these problems we work on them It doesn't mean look we didn't know this was gonna be a problem We didn't know it was gonna be an issue It's fair enough right And we're just and by the way we're following what customers want because they're clicking on things But wait there are these consequences and we should do something about the consequence It doesn't mean you can solve it perfectly but you should be working on it The research around children is particularly troubling You have this research that shows that Instagram can be harmful to teenagers And yet at the same time you're exploring building social products for kids as young as 5 years old Yeah What's wrong with that picture Is that I mean isn't that a little terrifying Well I think there's a chance where sometimes that product for 5 year old is great right Like it could be really educational learning engagement connectivity but you have to study it and you have to get it right The kids the whole reason we have childhood is we protect them and help them grow into adults Everyone has a responsibility there And at this point can we trust Facebook to be building the social network for kids I mean let's be honest Well I think they have lost trust for good reasons with this because you're not even responding to this crisis the right way I think that to regain it they have to be extra transparent They have to come forward and say look here's our dashboards Here's our metrics Here is the ways that we are trying to work on this and do things And that's the thing that is incumbent upon them to now start doing Don't say oh we have problems with a whistleblower Say here's what we're working on Here's what we're doing We know this is a problem we're working on Have you talked to mark at all and how do you think he is handling this Not yet Undoubtedly think that they have a whole bunch of eternal discussions going on right now and I wouldn't want to interrupt I mean I'm happy to help however I can I think he's a learner I think I have optimism and hope that he will learn from this His feet being applied to the fire is a good thing in this instance And then he will go okay I now need to make sure that we are being fully investing in protecting children And I think that's the stance the company needs to be at So what is the solution What is the role for regulation So while there's regulation but I think it starts with what's the dashboard that Facebook should be managing towards So for example you said well we have an engagement dashboard We have a session dashboard We have those Great We should also have other things on dashboard We should say well look if it's causing we know that certain kinds of content is causing body image issues or causing other kinds of things What we should add that to our dashboard and we should be measuring to make sure that we are having a positive impact there not a negative You don't just need one variable You don't just need the well do they click on it That's not the only variable You can put other variables in it It's part of the reason why you have a large company And that's the kind of thing that I would want to be hearing from Facebook about yeah yeah we got it and we know what we're working on And these are some good metrics that we should work towards and we are going to improve these metrics and we're going to report it on them at least to our auditors and we are going to work on this problem So here's another way to ask the question is Facebook too big to govern and too big to govern itself If you have a company with even the wisest people in charge Can they really be making decisions about every single moral ethical religious political legal issue in every single country around the world in every language How do you even possible Look at challenging and it's never going to be perfect There's always going to be lots of errors But I do think for example one thing like take for example the issues of governance and other languages where you don't have it We have AI that's getting much much better on languages Now it's not quite there yet but it's within two or three years You suddenly have kind of the equivalent of a universal translator That will make it easier That doesn't solve all the issues as cultural issues There's other kinds of things There's a political revolution here There's other things going on But that being said one of the benefits of having a central service is that you can invest in these kinds of protection mechanisms You can invest in the AI You can invest in that dialog and making it happen I actually think there are good things about global services as well where we understand other people So you don't necessarily think Facebook should be broken up I mean because the proposal has been break up the Instagram what's up Facebook or even break up Facebook India That should be its own thing So I'm precisely think the wrong answer is break up Right It's not to say that there aren't start with accountability start with transparency start with a dialog what you're doing See if you need regulation from that point of view Maybe you need to do a public private thing that's breaking up means that you don't have the resources to invest in that centralized thing Think about it this way I break it up and all of a sudden I got lots of four chains and reddits and everything else And it's even more mayhem So breaking up is not the answer Do you think the algorithm is the problem a and B do you think they should be choosing people over profit more often So the algorithm is part of the problem but also can be part of the solution which variables your.

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