New Orleans, Success Academy, Louisiana discussed on EconTalk
It's certainly true that charter schools try to get. Motivated students and motivated parents, but of course many of them. Even, the most successful ones which are sometimes the most successful ones in the states that there in. Are Serving extremely poor. Children. From very poor families. And those children are having success in academic settings, other poor children in the state or city don't get from their public schools. What does your does that count? I. Don't actually think that's true I. Think what's happening is the selection process and I was just communicating yesterday with with one of the leading authorities in the country, one of the leading researchers David Berliner at state, and he sent me list of the charters in the saver Zona and the selection process as they required. Some of them require the parents to write. Some of them require certain grades that their a number of requirements that charters use skim the students they want to include those they try. They try, but in New Orleans say may that public schools are spending more and not getting better results I would say that there's a couple of things to look at one. Is that when we were? Back in the day when everything was idyllic, we did not include kids with special education. The charters don't want the kids with Special Education and I've been in public schools were there were sixteen year old kids in diapers? I've been in public schools where the teachers literally had to carry the children because the children couldn't. They were in a wheelchair. They couldn't go to the. The bathroom. The teachers were taking them into the toilet. Those kids are not in charter schools. Those kids are very expensive to educate and the federal government. When it mandated special education back in the seventies promise that the federal government would pay forty percent of the cost, and it is never done. It says while very very expensive burden on public education that it must beer. Well I guess I'm less I think that explains the magnitude of expenditure, but I guess the bigger problem I have which you don't. Mention, the book and I love your reaction as You make your very critical of the charter school proponents for their support of charters and their claims that public schools are failing. There are numerous public schools where children can't read and write and get moved forward without. Help. They, they graduate and they are poorly poorly educated. Do. You think that is not the case. Now I think that is not the case I think the cases that America has a tremendous skewing of income that we concentrate the poorest neediest kids in some schools which have very low test scores, and then say their teachers are to blame, and if only there were charter schools, and then the chargers come along and don't take those kids anyway. They push out the kids who have special needs. They push out. They don't want the kids who the. The lowest foreign kids, so those kids get pushed up the charter schools are not taking the low scoring. Kids are taking and Robertson disco says in his book they're choosing the families they want, and the ones that are the most motivated and those are not the kids who were the neediest kids, so they're not. They're not the neediest, but there are plenty needy, and right now in many American cities, those parents and those children have no opportunity. To achieve any kind of academic success, they have a very low chance of going to college. They have a very low chance of graduating from college, and they have a very low chance of being financially successful. Weight, isn't it? Let me just giving example of two cities that have a wide open for charters, and and one of them's wide open for vouchers Milwaukee has a charter a full blown charter sector. Of It has a public sector that's been stripped of kids in resources, an has a full blown sector. Old Three sectors do terribly no-one no-one has been saved. And the. Black kids in Milwaukee are performing on par with their peers in Mississippi in the charter schools as well as the vouchers schools the other example. I would off. You is Detroit Charter schools enroll half the kids and Detroit is today still the lowest performing city in the country so have to have some examples of success and not just give me the theory that I heard thirty years ago about the success academy in new. New York, you think they've cherry picked all seventeenth off forty one thousand students absolutely, and that those forty one thousand students in the public school systems of the poorest parts of New York City were thriving before doing as well as they're doing under the Success Academy Day or they cherry picking the best students their first, their first graduating class, began with seventy eight children in kindergarten by the Tampa graduated there only sixteen. Yeah. That's true. You think that's not a heart rate of patrician that is that was their first class. Though you gotta give them a little bit of a chance to get up to speed after fourth grade, they do not accept any new students now they kick out kids who in the dip or six foot? Where do you think they go? They go to another charter school I go back to the public schools. Success Academy is a very keen example school at. Practices, careful selection and high attrition, and you get great results with that. They're over. Over eighty thousand poor black kids in New York City who get scores as high as the kids and the success academy, so they have a lot of kids choose from who are poor and who are black, and who are doing very loan public schools. Let's go. That's a good comparison I'd like to see that that's that's definitely relevant. And the prudence in New Orleans when they switched to alternative school system. The achievements that Terry Moe champion here. I know you don't agree with his with his perspective, but I was on the New Orleans. School website They have big increases in test scores by the agree with you. The test scores are not everything we're. We have a chance to talk about that, but they have big increases in graduation rates from from high school. They have big increases in kids. Going to college are those luxury did would they have happened anyway to the kids if they had stayed in public schools well I think the first thing to know about New Orleans is about twenty five percent of the kids disappeared after the storm a temporary, those twenty five percent were not the wealthy kids. Kids those were the poor as kids who fled to Houston and other places, and never came back, so it went from being a school system that had sixty thousand plus forty, forty, eight, thousand, and the choice system ranked by the state of Louisiana shows a half. The schools are failing schools, so whether the test scores went up or not they're they're. They're still very low. In Louisiana. Scores are dominated by New Orleans which is the largest city Louisiana is one of the lowest performing states in the country, so you're talking about a district the New Orleans. Now. Which is blabber state of Louisiana and Louisiana Louisiana's one of the lowest scoring states in the country. So is this a model for the rest of the country I don't think so? No, but it says that the for fourth and sixth grade students, the percentage of students scoring mastery, and above in math increase twenty one percentage points. That's not unimportant. But that's still way below the state average. Yeah there. They got some issues that we're you and I agree is that it is absurd to think that the greatest school in the world is going to transform the lives. Of every desperately poor kid who is in.